What if?? (Awnshegh ? )

[Undertaker]

At 08:51 AM 2/3/97 -0500, Craig(Gronko@aol.com)wrote:
>
>On an unrelated note. ? Why hasn't Michael Roele been raised from the
>dead????
>

Well Craig there are several opinions on this subject. We had a rather
heated discussion about death, and returning from it, just a short while
ago. Instead of me trying to remember all the valid points made about this,
I suggest you take a look at the Archives for the past few months, and read
any post with the subject Death. Several other posts under similar subject
names, concerning this, were posted during that time so take a look.
Although I'll warn you, its bound to raise(no pun intended)more questions
then it answers.

Undertaker, richt@metrolink.net
RL Homepage: http://www.metrolink.net/~veleda/sepulcher.html

[Gronko@aol.co]

In a message dated 97-02-03 23:44:59 EST, you write:

[Jaime T. Matthew]

> | On an unrelated note. ? Why hasn't Michael Roele been raised from the
> | dead????

This is a good question, and was the first thing I wondered after
reading the book.

Perhaps the answer is simple. The Gorgon may have had the body "Rest
Eternaled."

I like the idea of a world without returning from the dead (it
cheapens life in AD&D if the risk is removed) and have decided that
it is beyond the scope of the Clerics in my Birthright game.

There MAY be a way to raise the dead, but I haven't decided yet.

Jaime
__________________________________________________ ____
Jaime T. Matthew
mrjamela@netcom.com
http://www.geocities.com/hollywood/6750

[Steve Zaccardi]

On Feb 3, 8:51, Gronko@aol.com wrote:


| On an unrelated note. ? Why hasn't Michael Roele been raised from the
| dead????

The BR novel "Iron Throne" closes with the death of Michael Roele. After
the Gorgon amputates his arm and Michael releases his "regency" into the
earth, the battle at the crown continued. The chaos that ensues druing a large
scale battle usually precludes the rescue of fallen comrades,
dead or otherwise. Being that the Anuirean forces were forced to quit the
field after the loss of the King I would find it unlikely Michaels body
would have been recovered. What did the Gorgon do with it? My first reaction
would be he would have destroyed it in a rage. But, the recovery of the extant
remains of Michael Roele would be an interesting adventure. ;-)

- --
Steve Z.



|~ ~ "C/C++ programmers...will be lured by the syntactic sugar of Java." ~ ~|
[ - Marcus Jager (Metrowerks) ]
\O O/
M\ Steven Zaccardi Motorola Inc. Radio Network Solutions Group /M
/ \ zaccardi@comm.mot.com esz001@email.mot.com / \

[Matthew M. Colville]

>On Feb 3, 8:51, Gronko@aol.com wrote:
>
>
>| On an unrelated note. ? Why hasn't Michael Roele been raised from the
>| dead????
>
> The BR novel "Iron Throne" closes with the death of Michael Roele. After
>the Gorgon amputates his arm and Michael releases his "regency" into the
>earth, the battle at the crown continued. The chaos that ensues druing a large
>scale battle usually precludes the rescue of fallen comrades,
>dead or otherwise. Being that the Anuirean forces were forced to quit the
>field after the loss of the King I would find it unlikely Michaels body
>would have been recovered. What did the Gorgon do with it? My first reaction
>would be he would have destroyed it in a rage. But, the recovery of the extant
>remains of Michael Roele would be an interesting adventure. ;-)


I'll tell you what he did with it, he animated it and made it his
personal guard! He's got the undead body of Micheal Roele walkin' around
his pad, and he shoots arrows at it every once in a while to make himself
feel better!

Micheal Roele ain't dead, The Gorgon Reincarnated him and he's a
fuckin' badger!

Hahah!! I'm sorry, I find myself funny at 2:30 am. Hey, I just
got back from GMing Birthright, BTW!

[Matthew M. Colville]

>> | On an unrelated note. ? Why hasn't Michael Roele been raised from the
>> | dead????
>
>This is a good question, and was the first thing I wondered after
>reading the book.
>
>Perhaps the answer is simple. The Gorgon may have had the body "Rest
>Eternaled."
>
>I like the idea of a world without returning from the dead (it
>cheapens life in AD&D if the risk is removed) and have decided that
>it is beyond the scope of the Clerics in my Birthright game.
>
>There MAY be a way to raise the dead, but I haven't decided yet.


I just want to reiterate my point from the previous discussion:

Death does not necessarily have to be any big deal. Dying every
other adventure, once you're 10th level, doesn't *necessarily* have to be a
earth shattering event. Two points:

1) it should not be the case that the ONLY THING your PCs fear is
death. I cite Champions, an excellent RPG, in which the odds of you dying
are far, far, far, slimmer than in AD&D. If it was true that avoiding
death in RPGs was the prime motivating force, then Characters in champions
would always behave like Immortals! And they don't!

2) Merely failing to acheive you goal should be plenty bad. Having
the Gorgon conquer Anuire and all the rest of Cerilia shoud be WORSE than
your character dying. In my opinion, GMs should spend less time worrying
about raising their dead PCs and more time making them deal with the
consequences of getting there a minute too late, and failing to save the
world.
Again, I cite champions. I ran a Champs campaign for several years
and no-one ever feared dying the slightest bit. No-one ever died, no-one
ever came close to dying, but they often *failed* which was, believe me,
all the motivating force they needed.

So lighten up! Raise your PC's all the time! Hell, in Birthright,
PCs should be raised MORE OFTEN! Why? Because they are FAR MORE IMPORTANT
at low levels. A 3rd level schmoe in Forgotten Realms dies and he should
be gone forever. Who gives two shits about a 3rd level dude when there's a
FARMER in SHADOWDALE who's a 22nd level BARD with an 8th level fighter for
a stablehand (I didn't make that up, it's in there)! Yet in Birthright the
Duke of Tuornen, or the Prince-Paladin of Aryia, should be 2nd level and
EXPECT to be raised if he died!

If you're PCS want to know why Michael Roele ain't around, tell
them he failed his Ressurection Survival roll. Look it up. If failed, no
more attemps may be made and only divine intervention (the GM saying "Aw,
to hell with it, you're alive!") can bring the character back.

Maybe someone cast Speak With Dead and Mike said "I dig it up here,
I'm hanging out with my brother, the god. Leave me alone," but personally
I think the Failed RS roll makes the most sense.


P.S. Forgive the profanity, I tend to be a bit sloppy this early in the
morning.

[Jaime T. Matthew]

Matt-

> Death does not necessarily have to be any big deal. Dying every
> other adventure, once you're 10th level, doesn't *necessarily* have to be a
> earth shattering event. Two points:

Death should ALWAYS be an earth shattering event. The finality of
life is what keeps mortals from stagnating. Even in a world where
coming back from the dead is a possibility, the very event of ones
death should be very frightening. Espcially since they are not
responsible for bringing themselves back to life -- either someone
else does it for them or it does not happen.

> 1) it should not be the case that the ONLY THING your PCs fear is
> death. I cite Champions, an excellent RPG, in which the odds of you dying
> are far, far, far, slimmer than in AD&D. If it was true that avoiding
> death in RPGs was the prime motivating force, then Characters in champions
> would always behave like Immortals! And they don't!

An interesting choice of games to cite. My Birthright game uses the
Champions system (for information look at my web page below). If you
use the "heroic" rules, there is actually a decent chance of dying,
but unlike in AD&D, you are more likely to be killed from a single
fatal wound than lots and lots of nicks and scrapes. I reminded my
players of their mortality last session, when one of the PCs was
badly maimed by an Ogres two-handed sword. The character was so
traumatized by the effects of the wound (permanent disabling,
scarring and loss of movement) that she retired from adventuring. My
PCs do not believe in their immortality -- and for that matter I have
personally lost characters in the Hero system.

> 2) Merely failing to acheive you goal should be plenty bad. Having
> the Gorgon conquer Anuire and all the rest of Cerilia shoud be WORSE than
> your character dying. In my opinion, GMs should spend less time worrying
> about raising their dead PCs and more time making them deal with the
> consequences of getting there a minute too late, and failing to save the
> world.

It depends on what your goal is. Not all adventures have stakes as
high as those you mentioned. There are things worth dying for.
However, when the PC does give their life for a good cause, it should
have Meaning. Life should never be cheap.

> Again, I cite champions. I ran a Champs campaign for several years
> and no-one ever feared dying the slightest bit. No-one ever died, no-one
> ever came close to dying, but they often *failed* which was, believe me,
> all the motivating force they needed.

Champions or Fantasy Hero? There is a gross difference in the power
level between the two variants. In a 300 pt. Champions game it is
difficult (but not impossible) to bring heros close to death. In a
150 pt. Fantasy Hero game (which I am running) it is a much more
likely possibility.

> So lighten up! Raise your PC's all the time! Hell, in Birthright,
> PCs should be raised MORE OFTEN! Why? Because they are FAR MORE IMPORTANT
> at low levels. A 3rd level schmoe in Forgotten Realms dies and he should
> be gone forever. Who gives two shits about a 3rd level dude when there's a
> FARMER in SHADOWDALE who's a 22nd level BARD with an 8th level fighter for
> a stablehand (I didn't make that up, it's in there)! Yet in Birthright the
> Duke of Tuornen, or the Prince-Paladin of Aryia, should be 2nd level and
> EXPECT to be raised if he died!

Perhaps this is another important difference between our games. My
players are not running Regents. I still don't understand why the
head of a country would adventure. The stakes are too high
automatically. And who is raising these people? And what does Raise
Dead do to the rules of succession? Who decides that they should be
brought back (and in that case, when wouldn't you bring them back?)?

How can you expect your players do play intelligently if their
characters have no regard for the frailty of life?

> If you're PCS want to know why Michael Roele ain't around, tell
> them he failed his Ressurection Survival roll. Look it up. If failed, no
> more attemps may be made and only divine intervention (the GM saying "Aw,
> to hell with it, you're alive!") can bring the character back.

Another good reason. Although the only reason that matters is "plot
device."

Jaime
__________________________________________________ ____
Jaime T. Matthew
mrjamela@netcom.com
http://www.geocities.com/hollywood/6750