Prestige Class: Moon Initiate

[Raesene Andu]

Another prestige class for comments.

[The incredible, edible Phil]

A few corrections:

1) The Scry skill no longer exists and all references to it should be removed.

2) I would add Craft (alchemy) to the class skills.

3) The spell progression of the class is highly favourable but the requirements are a bit harsh, namely for the feats. I would suggest changing it to any 3 metamagic and/or item creation feats.

4) The extra domain granted should be given at 1st level.

5) I would remove the floating bonus to saves from Silver Magic altogether, otherwise it makes the theurgist PrC too unnatractive.

6) I would scale down the Watchful Moon class ability a bit, otherwise it makes the theurgist PrC too unnatractive.

[Danip]

I like the [Special: Must have received some form of revelation or sign from Ruornil, and must be a faithful devotee of Ruornil] requirement. As this is a PrC the Ruornil choses you for and not one that you work towards, the feat requirements are unduly rigid. It is mostly up to the DM to see if their PC cleric/wizard has been devoted enough.

Silver Magic and Watchful Moon give alot all at one level. Should their abilities be spread out over several levels or cut down? Mostly a balance issue I think.

By tenth level in the progression the character will be near epic, so I think not sleeping or a +2 on divination DCs isnt too overpowering.

A great PrC. Just the right flavor for this BR niche.

Phil, If you want the extra domain at 1st, perhaps it could be switched with the arcane wisdom. Afterall, wisdom takes time to develop. A domain is granted by the gods.
In the first level it also serves as a better sign of Rournil's favor.

[The incredible, edible Phil]

That is certainly a possibility, I'm still mulling the PrC over as the Mystic Theurge (DMG p192) is very similar.

An important new addition to consider before making any divine related PrC is the recent creation of Initiate Feats in the Player's Guide to Faerun that could very well accomplish what the specialty priests in 2e did for the cleric class.

[RaspK_FOG]

Again, Phil, we try to avoid putting in requirements for feats found in splatbooks.

In any case, I will second the notion of granting the extra domain at 1st level and granting Arcane Wisdom at 4th level; however, I would like to propose the following change to Arcane Wisdom:

Change "He may use Wisdom in place of any other ability score (generally Intelligence or Charisma) for arcane spellcasting purposes, such as setting the save DC or determining bonus spells per day." to "For all spellcasting-related intents and purposes, the moon initiate's Intelligence or Wisdom score, whichever is lower, is treated as if it were higher by half the difference between these two scores, rounded down."

For example, the previous mechanic raises one's Intelligence in regard to casting spells from 12 to equal to his Wisdom, perhaps 18? That's a 6-point increase! Under this mechanic, your Intelligence is raised to 15 only, which makes the class feature more balanced. The same would happen if your Intelligence/Wisdom were 18/12.

This reduces the overdramatic power increase the ability otherwise haves but allows people who are truly devoted to benefit from Ruornil's gift whether they are more inclined as arcane or divine spellcasters (in other words, it is an equally good boon to both players with high Intelligence scores and players with high Wisdom scores).

Another thing, too: change the whole "symbiotic" thing with the moon, and also do something about the spell being castable at 10th level...

[Mark_Aurel]

Mmmm. A few comments of my own:

This class was built for third ed, not 3.5 -- some changes are obviously due, particularly given the Mystic Theurge, which hadn't been publicized at the time this was written.

Now, this class was built to kinda/sorta emulate the 2e speciality priests of Ruornil, as should be obvious. Since it is a 'cleric Prestige Class' (God, I hate the idea of prestige classes built around a single other class), it was balanced against the cleric class.

It was a matter of fact in 3e that multiclassed spellcasters simply shot themselves in the foot. A clr 10/wiz 10 was just weak compared to a clr 20 or wiz 20. The idea here was to patch that somewhat. Being 3 levels behind in casting ability, and also having reduced combat ability, in return for a few extra levels of another spellcasting class, and some special abilities -- it's not really too much to cheer for, in retrospect.


Change "He may use Wisdom in place of any other ability score (generally Intelligence or Charisma) for arcane spellcasting purposes, such as setting the save DC or determining bonus spells per day." to "For all spellcasting-related intents and purposes, the moon initiate's Intelligence or Wisdom score, whichever is lower, is treated as if it were higher by half the difference between these two scores, rounded down."

Averaging a couple of ability scores is IMO a very ugly mechanic. Simply not very elegant.

What I'd like you to demonstrate, however, is why this ability is particularly imbalancing. Multiclassed spellcasters like this really, really suffer from multiple ability dependency. (Not that spellcasters are weak to begin with, mind you, but the balancing here is against other spellcasters, not non-casters.) The primary purpose here is to allow the caster to focus on only one casting stat, like a single-classed caster. It's also meant to be a quick boost early in the class, to compensate for the fact that the character has had to go with a suboptimal character concept for several levels. Since it's primarily a boost to a secondary ability, I don't think it qualifies as 'overdramatic,' either.

Of course, 3.5 tends to space out such bonuses, to prevent 'dips.' That, however, makes the characters that don't 'dip' suffer the most, really (like duelists and their Int bonus to AC). The only case where this would present a possible imbalance, though, is the clr5/wiz3/iotmm1/mystic theurge. And allowing that combination would be a bit lame.

The requirements on this thing really have to come down a tad; two metamagic feats should suffice, and with the Scry skill out of the game, the skill requirements are less stringent anyway.

[RaspK_FOG]

The class is certainly a non-combatant, which immediately decreases any ability requirement other than Intelligence and Wisdom...

Since you ask me why I feel this is overpowering, I believe that having an effective increase of 6+ just like that is a bit too much. I know that the mechanic I proposed was not beautiful, but it was balance-wise better than the previous one!

Another idea would be to consider either of these two ability scores higher by your class level for purposes of spellcasting, to a maximum of your other ability score; or this could be dispersed, so that the benefit is granted every even level (+2, +4, +6, +8, +10); thus, no dipping occurs, and really dedicated players will get the best out of this class.

For example, a 5th-level Cleric of Ruornil/5th-level Wizard (Int 13, Wis 19) takes 2 levels in this prestige class; his Intelligence is considered to be higher by 2 points for spellcasting purposes (Int 15, Wis 19).

[Mark_Aurel]

The class is certainly a non-combatant, which immediately decreases any ability requirement other than Intelligence and Wisdom...

All classes are 'combatants' to some degree. If you mean he won't engage in melee as anything but a desperate last resort, no, he won't. If you mean he doesn't need all the hit points he can get, and as good an AC, Initiative check, and Reflex save as he can get, well, then you'd be wrong. He needs those to be able to survive through a combat, as much or more so than other classes. Forcing a class to focus on Int and Wis would require giving that class some highly significant advantages.


Since you ask me why I feel this is overpowering, I believe that having an effective increase of 6+ just like that is a bit too much. I know that the mechanic I proposed was not beautiful, but it was balance-wise better than the previous one!

I'm not quite sure, but it seem you have a slightly different definition of balance here -- as in 'big jump in ability' against mechanical, crunchy balance.

You're focusing on the wrong aspect here; a jump of '6+' sounds impressive, but it's more a patching of a weakness than adding to a strength. Let's make a comparison:

Single-classed cleric: Highest-level spell 1.5 levels ahead, doesn't need a high Int, might take a Spell Focus feat to boost some offensive spells as well.

This class: Gets slightly more spells per day on average, but lags in the spell power curve. Arcane spells lag further behind divine spells (2.5-3 levels, roughly). Won't have a Spell Focus feat until fairly late, if at all, due to class feat requirements.

Getting that boost thus accomplishes two things: It brings the class' arcane spells up to speed, save DC-wise with the character's divine spells of the same level, and it gives the class a few extra arcane bonus spells. Since the arcane spells already lag behind a fair bit, this is not a very big boost in reality at all.


Another idea would be to consider either of these two ability scores higher by your class level for purposes of spellcasting, to a maximum of your other ability score; or this could be dispersed, so that the benefit is granted every even level (+2, +4, +6, +8, +10); thus, no dipping occurs, and really dedicated players will get the best out of this class.

That would seem a more 3.5-friendly approach, yes. The problem with that approach is that it presupposes that you're allowed to take the Mystic Theurge class, however. Personally, I wouldn't allow that in a BR campaign if I were to use the Initiate class here. And if the MT class isn't permitted, the entire 'no dipping' argument falls to pieces. And if you're talking an otherwise single-class cleric that takes three levels of wizard or magician or whatever, he deserves a break he can get to compensate for that, if only slightly.

Speaking of which, this class was also balanced around an older build of the Magician class -- the current version of Magician would be even less conductive to multiclassing with a cleric, thus making this PrC more of a clr/wiz deal -- which, as we know, is just *wrong* in BR terms.

[RaspK_FOG]

It is natural that only clerics of Ruornil would ever become Mystic Theurges in Birthright (or, perhaps, Avani's, but I doubt it)... I don't find the whole theme bad, it's just that your notion that this class largely differs from the Mystic Theurge is most absurd; that prestige class was considered nearly balanced only because it gave no other benefit other than a simultaneous increase in two caster levels, and this class grants both this and so much more, if I am not sadly mistaken.

I believe that your view of crunchy balance is a bit dull in this case; I think that a character who gets a +6 increase to his arcane caster level really is not only a passing arcane spellcaster: that's 3 fourths of the levels granted the character! It's like saying that characters with an average BAB are poor combatants...

A character might as well get 1 level in the prestige class, get an effective +6 increase in his arcane spellcasting ability score, then progress with his other classes; the fact that he got all these benefits so easilly (since these are requirements most multiclass cleric/wizards or cleric/magicians will have at 8th-level, apart from Ruornil's attention), I don't see how you cannot perceive the inconsistency.

[Mark_Aurel]

and this class grants both this and so much more, if I am not sadly mistaken.

You're sadly mistaken. Mystic Theurge grants +10/10 and requires 3/3. This class grants +10/7 and requires 5/3.


I believe that your view of crunchy balance is a bit dull in this case; I think that a character who gets a +6 increase to his arcane caster level really is not only a passing arcane spellcaster: that's 3 fourths of the levels granted the character! It's like saying that characters with an average BAB are poor combatants...

1. Don't get things mixed up here; are you talking +6 caster levels, or +6 to the casting ability score?

2. Any prestige class that causes a loss of casting ability needs commensurately powerful, scaling benefits. In this case, especially, since it's balanced towards divine casters, and the class really has the layout of a wizard.

3. A class with a medium base attack is significantly worse than one with a full base attack as a combatant. (I'm assuming you're referring to your paladin class here?) Here, I'll illustrate:

If a 20th-level fighter needs to roll a 10 to hit something, a 20th-level cleric will need to roll a 15. The fighter will hit twice as often on the first attack, five times as often on the second, the third is equal, and only the fighter gets a fourth (so you might say the third is a bit more than twice as good for the fighter instead of giving him a third attack). If he needs to roll a 5 to hit, the cleric needs a 10; the fighter hits 50% more, then 100% more, then 400% more. And that's not even accounting for skewed ability scores or the different base damage they do. The overall difference is in the range of the fighter/warrior/whatever being 67-100% more effective, just from base attack alone.


A character might as well get 1 level in the prestige class, get an effective +6 increase in his arcane spellcasting ability score, then progress with his other classes; the fact that he got all these benefits so easilly (since these are requirements most multiclass cleric/wizards or cleric/magicians will have at 8th-level, apart from Ruornil's attention), I don't see how you cannot perceive the inconsistency.

That would make for a terrible character. 3 levels of arcane spellcaster weighing down on his divine progression? A multiclass spellcaster just doesn't tend to be a very effective character. And the differences matter for all the reasons given above. Advancing as a spellcaster is very much an exercise in geometry, not linear addition. We can use a simple example to illustrate again. Let's take a wizard casting a fireball against a monster with a good save and SR. For the sake of convenience, let's say the Wizard has Heighten Spell and uses a Fireball that's Heightened as much as he can.

If a 5th-level wizard has a 50% chance to breach the SR, a 7th-level caster has a 60% chance to breach the SR. That's 20% better already.

If the monster saves on an 11 or better against the 3rd-level Fireball, and on a 12 or better against a 4th-level Heightened Fireball, that's a 50% chance of not saving, versus a 55% chance of not saving. That's 10% better.

Then there's the matter of damage, of course. The average is 17.5 for the 5th-level wizard, 24.5 for the 7th-level one. That's 40% better.

So we get 1.2 × 1.1 × 1.4, or 1.848. Two levels up, and the wizard is roughly 85% more effective with his peak spell. You might object that as he reaches still higher levels, the damage curve trails off (i.e. the difference between 12d6 and 10d6 is less, percentually, than that between 7d6 and 5d6) -- but then he also gets more and better effects. Like save or die spells.

85% isn't a totally random number, either. You see, D&D is configured so that character power will roughly double with every two levels. If you want a clear example of this, look at the experience charts. As characters reach higher levels, factors like hit points tend to matter less, but then higher bonuses from items tend to pick up that slack and keep the curve going, especially for non-casting classes.

Multiclassing away from a spellcaster for just a few levels actually hurts that character's efficiency tremendously. He gets to be slightly better in another area, in return for being a lot worse in his main field of focus. From a 20th-level perspective, being able to cast as a 10th-level arcane spellcaster does *not* compensate for only being a 17th-level divine caster. You'll fail a lot of SR rolls as a divine caster, and you'll fail all your SR rolls as an arcane caster, unless the monster has no SR (which just about any monster at this level should have) or has a ridiculously low SR for its level. The monster will also have a much better chance at making its saves; your peak arcane spells will come in at a save DC 4 points lower just from spell levels alone.

At a lower level, this very same phenomenon holds true, on a lesser scale, but more importantly the character at that point suffers from lack of effects. While other characters will be hurling fireballs, yours will be stuck with flaming spheres. While other clerics are raising the dead, you're lucky to be able to cure serious wounds. Breadth of ability does not make up for deficiencies in depth of ability.

And you'll note that this character, if optimized, will actually remain a 3rd-level arcane caster until he hits 10th character level, at which point he'll be 7th level as divine caster/4th level as arcane caster. Do you really think that a few 2nd-level arcane spells makes a suitable trade for having 5th-level (and soon 6th-level) divine spells?

So, no, I really don't think my sense of crunchy balance is 'off' in this regard.

[Osprey]

There have been a number of examples in some recent Complete books (Arcane, Adventurer) of PrC's gaining spell progression at most but not all levels of the PrC. Perhaps this would be a good way to tone down the class slightly so that it's not a "Super Mystic Theurge", as Rasp pointed out.

I noticed in the writeup that a few levels (1st, 4th, 7th) get a divine spellcasting level but not an arcane one. Was this meant to be a balancer for the class features at those levels?

Here are my thoughts for rebalancing the class a bit, largely using the Mystic Theurge in the DMG for balance, and assuming that this class would replace Mystic Theurge for any devotee of Ruornil. As an aside plug, I think it might be very interesting to have an Avani counterpart PrC, very similar but centered on the power of the sun and reason (ex: Intelligence may replace Wisdom for spellcasting purposes, as reason is most valued). In that case, the Mystic Theurge could be ditched entirely, or at least relegated to the rare hermit sort of mystic who develops such a path on his own (i.e., DM-allowed exceptions to the rule).

Moon Initiate:
Requirements:
- Feats: any 2 metamagic feats (shouldn't encourage item creation feats in BR).
- Skills: 9 ranks in K/Arcana, K/Religion, and Spellcraft is probably enough, if the character can take this class as their 7th character level (Wiz 3/ Cl 3/ MI 1). For a dual caster class, forcing them to take 2 more levels of clerics is harsh.
- Lower the divine caster requirement to 2nd level divine spells.
- Make the Moon domain a special requirement - this is a Moon Initiate after all, it only makes sense.

****
Arcane Wisdom is VERY powerful. While Jan sees this as making up for a multiclass weakness, I think the MT was pretty carefully balanced so that there was a significant tradeoff between the nearly doubled spellpower of dual caster classes vs. the power of a single specialist. This is necessary, otherwise things swing too far in favor of the high-level multiclass PrC's. D&D has always favored the specialists over the generalists, especially on an action scale, and it tends to break the game if the power balance shifts to heavily reward the multi-classers.

Raising spell DC's is one of the biggest ways to power up a spellcaster (this is the reason the benefits of Spell Focus and its chain were halved in 3.5). Raising their effective prime attribute is IMMENSE - no other class feature that I know of does this for spellcasters, and only ability-enhancing magic items (like a Circlet of Intellect) can do it on a continual basis to allow for extra bonus spells and higher DC's all the time.

This is a tough one - I've been racking my brain for a way to introduce this as a balanced power (I like the concept), but it just doesn't add up. How many Spell Focus feats would it take to equal the bonuses to arcane spell DC's from just getting the 1st level of this class? Lots and lots. Circlets of Intellect? Not too common in BR, I think. Tomes of Clear Thought - do they even exist in Cerilia? Bottom line: intelligence bonus is a BIG deal, especially if you're 1/2 wizard (same goes for Cha for sorcerers).

Rasp's mechanic may have been somewhat ackward to use, but it seems a lot more balanced, and I'm having a hard time thinking of any alternative method that keeps any sort of power balance.

In truth, I think it should be necessary for a multiclass cleric/mage to sacrifice combat ability scores for spellcasting ones. Any Mystic Theurge style of progression should demand that the character be the weakest sort of physical combatant in exchange for the incredible progression of spell power gained.

An alternative option in place of the current version of Arcane Wisdom is that a Moon Initiate could use their higher caster level for both arcane and divine spellcasting (but not spell progression) - so a Wiz 3/Cl 5/MI 4 would cast cleric and wizard spells at 9th level, rather than wizard 7/cleric 9.
This has several benefits:
1. Better spell penetration, dispelling, scrying, damage, range, and duration with arcane spells.
2. The power gain will tend to be low-moderate compared to the current version of Arcane Wisdom.
3. Simplified mechanics for the player of a Moon Initiate - only 1 caster level to keep track of when casting spells.
4. Since spell progression is not affected, players who are more evenly balanced in their multiclassing between cleric and mage still have more arcane spells per day.

*****

Extra Domain is always a good PrC bonus feature, and not too powerful since it grants a (fairly minor) special ability and extra spell choices only for the 1 domain slot per spell level.

*****

Silver Magic: good ideas, but there seems to be a whole lot for one power once again. Floating Wisdom bonus to spell DC's or saves, PLUS a superior version of the Improved Counterspell feat? That Wisdom bonus would make for a cool class feature on its own, and in fact might be perfect as a 1st level ability: allow a floating pool to any spell DC's or magic saves. The pool grants a bonus equal to +1 per level of Moon Initiate, and may not exceed the character's Wisdom bonus in any case. (This is in-line with a lot of similar PrC abilities in 3.5 in terms of its staged progression.)

The counterspelling ability is better than Imp. Counterspell because the feat allows one to counter spells of a lower, but not equal, level. As such, this does well remaining as a seperate higher-level ability (8th?).

****

Watchful Moon: another incredible set of features rolled into one power. This is also something I'd like to see broken into progressive levels rather than getting it all at once at 10th level. A symbiotic relationship with the moon is a neat concept - I think it would be best represented through a progression of growing closeness to the moon's spiritual and arcane power.

For instance:
3rd Level: Eyes of the Owl: low-light vision under a night sky (it gets difficult to constantly arbitrate whether or not te character is in moonlight, especially when moving).
5th level: Watchful Moon: +1 caster level and spell DC's to divination spells cast between moonrise and moonset. This stacks with the bonus from the Knowledge domain and Spell Focus feat, if approporiate.
6th level: Lunar Vitality: May meditate for 4 hours to gain the equivalent of 8 hours of sleep.
7th level: Moonlore: May cast Vision 1/day as a spell-like ability. This may only be done in the time between moonrise and moonset.
9th level: Farseeing: May cast Discern Location 1/day as a spell-like ability.
10th level: Ruornil's Seer: During the hours when the moon is in the sky, one who has mastered Rournil's mystic path may sacrifice any prepared spell to spontaneously cast a known divination spell of equal or lower spell level.

No scry skill, tho +1 divination caster level will now improve the power of any scrying spell. Also, I decided the ability to cast a free Discern Location 1/night was a pretty strong replacement for that scry bonus, and a good capstone power for 10th level.

So put all together, here's a suggested level spread for the class (with d4 HD, low BAB, and high Will save):

1st level: Ruornil's Insight: floating bonus to spell DC's or saving throws vs. magic, limited by class level and Wis modifier. +1 arcane and divine spellcasting levels.
*2nd level: Arcane Insight (highest caster level), +1 arcane OR divine spellcasting level.
3rd level: Eyes of the Owl, +1 arcane and divine spellcasting levels.
4th level: Extra Domain, +1 arcane and divine spellcasting levels.
*5th level: Watchful Moon, +1 arcane OR divine spellcasting level.
6th level: Lunar Vitality, +1 arcane and divine spellcasting levels.
7th level: Moonlore, +1 arcane and divine spellcasting levels.
*8th level: Silver Magic (superior counterpell), +1 arcane OR divine spellcasting level.
9th level: Farseeing, +1 arcane and divine spellcasting levels.
10th level: Rournil's Seer, +1 arcane and divine spellcasting levels.

*2nd, 5th, and 8th levels grant only 1 class of spell progression: these seemed like the 3 strongest powers of the class except for Ruornil's Seer (which, as a 10th level PrC class feature, should be a Mastery sort of power), each being similar to a strong feat in relative power.

I don't believe Ruornil favors divine over arcane spellcasting - I believe this is something a meditative mystic would decide for herself. If uncertain, they can always pray for guidance (Augury, Divination, Commune). Hence I changed your divine only caster progression at levels 1/4/7 to divine or arcane (character's choice) at 2/5/8.

Thus the class is slightly weaker than the Mystic Theurge for spell progression, but adds some flavorful class abilities to compensate. Which makes it not only much more interesting than the Mystic Theurge, but adds a bit of specialty power to an otherwise spread-out character concept.

What do you think?

Osprey

[Mark_Aurel]

I noticed in the writeup that a few levels (1st, 4th, 7th) get a divine spellcasting level but not an arcane one. Was this meant to be a balancer for the class features at those levels?

Yep.


Raising spell DC's is one of the biggest ways to power up a spellcaster (this is the reason the benefits of Spell Focus and its chain were halved in 3.5). Raising their effective prime attribute is IMMENSE - no other class feature that I know of does this for spellcasters, and only ability-enhancing magic items (like a Circlet of Intellect) can do it on a continual basis to allow for extra bonus spells and higher DC's all the time.

This is true. The thing is, in this case, it's not adding to the character's highest-level spell DCs. It's evening out the gap so that some additional low-level spells the character gains are at the same DC as the rest of the character's low-level spells.

Monster saves scale with levels just as save DCs do.

If it had been something like a +3 bonus to the character's highest-level spells, that's something else entirely. There's a reason why Spell Focus and other save DC-enhancing abilities were toned down in 3.5 (I still think Wizards fudged up a bit with regards to Spell Focus, though). But that reason isn't that characters were using burning hands spells the monsters couldn't save against. It's the high-level save or die type spells that no one could save against -- which, by the time they get to that point, will already be far behind on the base save curve anyway.

In this case, the bonus is simply in proportion to the weakness of the ability.

It's like the difference between giving a rogue or an assassin a +10 bonus to Hide/Move Silently, and a fighter in plate mail the same bonus -- it'll let the former characters almost always succeed, but the latter will only get a normal chance at succeeding every now and then.

The extra bonus spells is much the same. To a 14th-level character, an extra 2nd-level and 3rd-level spell each day is pretty much a pittance, especially if he's exchanging some low-level casting ability for higher-level spells.

Also, the Mystic Theurge is a bit on the weak side in and of itself. Stuff like the Practiced Spellcaster feat from Complete Arcane helps a bit, though.

I could do a build of two or three different characters to showcase some of this stuff, but that's for tomorrow, I guess.

[Mark_Aurel]

What do you think?

I definitely like a lot of what you've done. I'll take a closer look at it tomorrow. (I think it's important to note that I'm not doggedly opposed to any change; I feel there's quite a few things that need a change or are definite 3e-isms that need to go anyway in the class. I don't feel that the focus on the first ability as unbalanced is accurate at all, however.)

[Osprey]

This is true. The thing is, in this case, it's not adding to the character's highest-level spell DCs. It's evening out the gap so that some additional low-level spells the character gains are at the same DC as the rest of the character's low-level spells.

Monster saves scale with levels just as save DCs do.

If it had been something like a +3 bonus to the character's highest-level spells, that's something else entirely. There's a reason why Spell Focus and other save DC-enhancing abilities were toned down in 3.5 (I still think Wizards fudged up a bit with regards to Spell Focus, though). But that reason isn't that characters were using burning hands spells the monsters couldn't save against. It's the high-level save or die type spells that no one could save against -- which, by the time they get to that point, will already be far behind on the base save curve anyway.

In this case, the bonus is simply in proportion to the weakness of the ability.

It's like the difference between giving a rogue or an assassin a +10 bonus to Hide/Move Silently, and a fighter in plate mail the same bonus -- it'll let the former characters almost always succeed, but the latter will only get a normal chance at succeeding every now and then.

The extra bonus spells is much the same. To a 14th-level character, an extra 2nd-level and 3rd-level spell each day is pretty much a pittance, especially if he's exchanging some low-level casting ability for higher-level spells.

Also, the Mystic Theurge is a bit on the weak side in and of itself. Stuff like the Practiced Spellcaster feat from Complete Arcane helps a bit, though.

I don't feel that the focus on the first ability as unbalanced is accurate at all, however.


I definitely understand your reasoning/arguments on the relative power scale of shoring up a weaker ability vs. strengthening a strong one. However, I still side with Rasp in believing that to make your weaker spellcasting ability suddenly equal your primary one is just too powerful. A cleric-focused character will probably have Wisdom as their highest ability score already: what other character, multiclass, PrC, or otherwise gets to suddenly have a 2nd matching ability to their prime attribute? It would be like a fighter being able to take a prestige class that let his Con score equal his Str for the purpose of determining bonus hit points per level while still getting bonus feats, other class abilities, a high BAB, and a d10 hit die.

Ultimately, multiclass characters should be somewhat weaker than an equal-level straight-class character. There are significant advantages to versatility, particularly for a cleric/mage character, which I think you've under-emphasized in your arguments. But agreeing with your examples of spell power vs. level from this thread and your comments on the Paladin of Neserie, I also think that this is why there is a need for Prestige Classes that let players "dual advance" with combinations of 2 or more base classes. It keeps those base class abilities within a few levels of power of a straight-class character, rather than dropping way, way behind. Complete Adventurer recently introduced a number of multiclass feats that allow class levels to stack for certain purposes - pretty cool, and worth checking out if you haven't already.

That being said, I also agree that the Mystic Theurge is slightly weak as a class, but I don't see this as out of line with the general movement in 3.5 to tone down magical power from several angles at once. However, it is the MT's weakness that led me to suggest as many class features as I did in my last post for the Moon Initiate, and why I don't the think that version of the class is unduly powerful.

But I think it important to retain some of the basic disadvantages of multiclassing: for a cleric/mage, this is lowered spell progression for casters, worse BAB for non-warriors, and the necessity of spreading out ability scores more thinly. Every multiclass character has to do that, even those that have specialty PrC's.

Also for the Moon Initiate, loss of a meaningful turning ability (which is really sad for a priest of Ruornil IMO), in addition to much lower HD and BAB, makes for quite a large tradeoff from being a straight cleric who can cast a few mage/magician spells anyways with their domain spell slots.

Osprey

[Mark_Aurel]

I definitely understand your reasoning/arguments on the relative power scale of shoring up a weaker ability vs. strengthening a strong one. However, I still side with Rasp in believing that to make your weaker spellcasting ability suddenly equal your primary one is just too powerful. A cleric-focused character will probably have Wisdom as their highest ability score already: what other character, multiclass, PrC, or otherwise gets to suddenly have a 2nd matching ability to their prime attribute? It would be like a fighter being able to take a prestige class that let his Con score equal his Str for the purpose of determining bonus hit points per level while still getting bonus feats, other class abilities, a high BAB, and a d10 hit die.

No, not quite. If the fighter had to take a big hit first by taking on a poor multiclassing combination and having his BAB reduced by a fair margin, I think your comparison would be more accurate.

Another way to compare would be with a prestige class that granted a cleric many low-level bonus spells in return for not getting higher-level spells quite as fast, and having an overall lower caster level, and worse combat statistic, but some other abilities in return. He uses Wisdom for all those extra spells too, but how many players would take a trade of three or four spells each of 1st and 2nd level for a couple of 5th-level spells, a couple of 6th-level spells, and a higher caster level?

You're right that this is trading versatility for power, but as I said above, width of power isn't worth as much as depth of power, especially not as long as D&D is a strongly party-based game.

[Osprey]

I forgot to mention/remind: raising the casting ability score re. bonus spells is actually likely to give extra high level spells per day, as well as additional low-level ones once the character's Wisdom hits 20 or higher (+2/1/1/1/1 at Wis 20). So a Moon Initiate with 14 Int and 20 Wis would gain a bonus 1st, 3rd, 4th, and 5th level spell per day, as well as getting +3 to all arcane spell DC's! While this may be a worst-case scenario of min-maxing, I believe it demonstrates what we're trying to express: it's a BIG leap in power.

Extra spells per day isn't really what this class needs anyways: by having 2 primary caster classes combine they get a LOT of spells per day total compared to a one-class caster.

My experience with the PC Mystic Theurge in my game was that he generally had far more spells per day than he knew what to do with. His lower caster levels for both classes, and his lack of highest-level spells, were by far his greatest handicaps. This was the reason I suggested changing the Arcane Wisdom feature to allow Moon Initiates to even out their caster levels as they progress: it provides some power compensation without pretending that the character should be a match for a straight-class caster of equal level.

[RaspK_FOG]

What I pointed out when I asked if I was sadly mistaken was the other class features of the class; the Moon Initiate loses, what, 4 arcane caster level increases compared to the Mystic Theurge but DOES get a lot more other abilities while the Mystic Theurge gets none; that's what I meant...

The +6 referrence of mine reads "spellcasting ability SCORE". A cleric-more character will likely have a higher Wisdom, and the casting of 2nd-level arcane magic a la wizards/magicians requires an Intelligence score of 12, from which we can easilly assume that the character might very well get an effective +6 increase in his arcane spellcasting ability score in regard to spellcasting...

[Mark_Aurel]

Alright, I couldn't sleep, so here's a quick-n-dirty demo build. I made three different 12th-level characters: A single-class cleric, an initiate, and a mystic theurge. It may not be quite the best level to use, and different levels may make for different results.

The initiate gets 5 more spells per day than the cleric, and the theurge gets 5 more spells per day than the initiate. What's more important, though, is how those levels spread out.

If you take 3rd to 6th level spells, the cleric has 18, the theurge has 18, and the initiate has 13.

If you take 4th to 6th level spells, the cleric has 12, the theurge has 9, and the initiate has 6.

Being able to cast a lot of 0-level, 1st level, and 2nd-level spells is not really such a huge advantage at 12th level, especially if your caster level for many of those spells is less than half your character level.

Now, there is no spell point system to convert to, but if you take the basic scroll writing rule to find the value of all the character's spells (total spell levels × caster level), you'll get a base value of 1176 for clerics, 936 for mystic theurges, and 648 for the initiate. (Those numbers are 1/25th market value of the scrolls you'd have to buy to equal the spellcasting ability of the class, or equal to the XP value you'd pay to write a full daily allotment of spells into scrolls.)

Also: The counterspelling ability was based off of a 3e mechanic that read just the same. Note that here, if you'd be facing an enemy spellcaster, he'd likely lead off with higher-level spells, rendering the counterspelling ability fairly useless if and until he got down to the initiate's own higher spell levels. It's an ability that's primarily useful against relatively low-level spellcasters, and the character should be able to sweep the floor with those anyway.

[Mark_Aurel]

Originally posted by Osprey@Feb 8 2005, 12:42 AM
I forgot to mention/remind: raising the casting ability score re. bonus spells is actually likely to give extra high level spells per day, as well as additional low-level ones once the character's Wisdom hits 20 or higher (+2/1/1/1/1 at Wis 20). So a Moon Initiate with 14 Int and 20 Wis would gain a bonus 1st, 3rd, 4th, and 5th level spell per day, as well as getting +3 to all arcane spell DC's! While this may be a worst-case scenario of min-maxing, I believe it demonstrates what we're trying to express: it's a BIG leap in power.

Extra spells per day isn't really what this class needs anyways: by having 2 primary caster classes combine they get a LOT of spells per day total compared to a one-class caster.

My experience with the PC Mystic Theurge in my game was that he generally had far more spells per day than he knew what to do with. His lower caster levels for both classes, and his lack of highest-level spells, were by far his greatest handicaps. This was the reason I suggested changing the Arcane Wisdom feature to allow Moon Initiates to even out their caster levels as they progress: it provides some power compensation without pretending that the character should be a match for a straight-class caster of equal level.
Oh, the balance is for a minmaxed scenario. Yes, the character can gain a 5th-level bonus spell slot -- at 9th level of theurge, or 17th character level -- at the earliest. Not exactly something I'd roll out the champagne and throw a party over.

+3 to arcane save DCs, again, doesn't matter much as long as your arcane spells are two to four levels behind your divine spells. You'll be leading with those anyway; your best divine save DCs will be 2-4 ahead of your best arcane spell save DC. At any point in this class, your arcane level will be at least 3 to 5 levels behind your divine level, if you've minmaxed properly.

It's a big leap, but only as far as an ability that was very, very weak compared to the character's level to begin with is concerned.

(I'm not necessarily saying that this ability is one that should be retained, either -- just that it is a very far cry from being an imbalanced or game-breaking ability, in the context of the rest of the class and the character build required to attain it. This is one of those cases where the statistics don't lie.)

[Mark_Aurel]

Originally posted by RaspK_FOG@Feb 8 2005, 12:46 AM
What I pointed out when I asked if I was sadly mistaken was the other class features of the class; the Moon Initiate loses, what, 4 arcane caster level increases compared to the Mystic Theurge but DOES get a lot more other abilities while the Mystic Theurge gets none; that's what I meant...

The +6 referrence of mine reads "spellcasting ability SCORE". A cleric-more character will likely have a higher Wisdom, and the casting of 2nd-level arcane magic a la wizards/magicians requires an Intelligence score of 12, from which we can easilly assume that the character might very well get an effective +6 increase in his arcane spellcasting ability score in regard to spellcasting...
Yes, it does get a lot more abilities than the Theurge. The Theurge, however, has a lower entry requirement on the divine side, and grants more effective arcane levels. Look at the sample builds I included, and you'll see how it works out.

You said +6 caster level in one of your posts above, which is where the confusion stems from. It's +7 arcane/+10 divine for the full class advancement, anyway -- and the difference between +7 and +10 is HUGE, especially when the +7 is to a class you're only likely to have 3 levels in to begin with, while you need 5 levels in the +10. That's 15/10 at the exit point of the class -- at 18th level, and likely to go to 17/10, as opposed to the 17/13 or 15/15 of a mystic theurge. (That means a 20th-level theurge will have 7th-level spells where the 20th-level initiate will have 5th-level spells.)

[Mark_Aurel]

There's a bit of a muck-up in the Mystic Theurge write-up of mine. Which is A. N. Noying as far as errors go.

[geeman]

Rather than make the PrC`s special abilities a blanket +1/+1 arcane/divine,

and in order to keep the class more in line with the original BR theme for

priests of Ruornil, might it make better sense to have it be based upon

priest levels and magician levels rather than any arcane spellcasting

class? Originally priests of that god got access to the Magician`s spells

and this PrC could be a very elegent way of portraying that.



That aside, there is some debate about whether the +1/+1 arcane/divine

makes for a balanced class, even with the lack of other special abilities

(I fall down on the side that thinks it`s unbalanced) but if the levels

granted were in the less powerful magical schools of divination and

illusion I don`t think that issue would be quite so hard to justify and one

could keep any other special abilities as part of the same rationale.



It might prove a bit of a problem mandating the magician class levels

amongst the special abilities, but it could be done in a couple of

ways. Prereqs avoid outright saying class and level, but for all practical

purposes they mandate just that on certain occasions. "Specialty in both

the illusion and divinations schools of arcane magic" for instance would

probably be sufficient, along with whatever ranks/feats needed to set

access to the class at level 6+ (or wherever one wanted to put it.)



Gary

[Majinotaku83]

Hello,

I don't mean to be rude at all but will there be an 'updated' version of this Prestige class? I am rather fond of Ruornil characters and have only ever found 2 Prestige classes that i like (The 'Sorcerer of the Moon' and this one), but they were either incomplete or 3rd edition.

I was wondering if anyone could inform me as to whether anything is happening this is P. Class.

Thanks