Opinions.

[Jesse LaBranche]

Hello All,

First off, let me apologize for a couple of things. 1) For those lists
which have "key words" sorry- I wasn't about to go through the keywords for
10 different mailing lists just to post a msg, 2) For cross-posting, those
of you who are on multiple lists are going to get this missive in multiplet.
My apologies again.
Unfortunately, what I have to say is relevant to all of the lists and
rather than say it 10 different ways to 10 different groups, I'm saying it
once to gamers in general. I'm not posting this for purposes of debate, but
more to express a dissatisfaction and see how many others feel the same way.
For those who feel the same way that I do about all this, please write
me- I'd love to hear from you and maybe discuss alternatives to the problem.

A short bit of history, and the problems will reveal themselves I think.
I started role-playing in 1975 using a water works game to randomly
determine dungeons and dice counters to use as monsters because I'd heard
just enough about D&D to get my mind working.
By Christmas of 1976 I had the D&D Basic rules boxed set, and started
playing that day. It was not long before I made a transition from D&D to
AD&D because it made more sense to me in the ability to mix-match classes
and races.
(For those of you who don't know, "Elf" in D&D meant your class/race was
an Elf. The equivalent of an Elven Fighter/Magic-User, "Hobbit" was a Thief,
etc.)
About 1990, they cancelled Greyhawk as the predominent setting and
brought the Realms out. Now, in 2000, WotC is planning to do the same thing
again to the Forgotten Realms. While this may be somewhat of a
pleasure/relief to Greyhawk gamers, it definitely isn't to those who enjoy
the Realms (And no I'm not one of them).
Alright, now on to the problems. Those who never played 1st edition
because 2nd was already out might wish to take some notes, because many of
you will be up on the soapbox one day wishing to hell that you'd listened to
this, just like I'm wishing I could remember the talk when we went to 2nd.
When 1st edition ended, there were something like 15 hardback books.
TSR's statements at the time were that they were going to cut back to two
hardbacks and a couple monstrous compendium notebooks. The plan with the
notebooks was that each monster would take up a page (Front and back) so
that they could be inserted into the books and alphabetized for quick
reference.
The basic statement was that they were "stream-lining" the system. The
truth of the matter turned out to be that TSR was going broke and they
needed to boost sales. Putting out 2nd edition and a new world fulfilled
that need for them.
Not too long ago, statements were made by various TSR staff-members that
the Realms, Planescape, and Ravenloft would not be cut with the advent of
3rd edition. Guess what? Bullshit. They've cut Ravenloft. I don't know about
the other two, because I'm not as involved in them.
Currently, TSR has produced the following worlds: Al-Qadim, Kara-Tur
(Both were shifted to the Realms AFTER their inception), Dark-Sun,
Dragonlance, Forgotten Realms, Greyhawk, Birthright, Mystara, Planescape,
Ravenloft, and Spelljjammer.
Out of these, countless dollars were spent on all of these by gamers.
Virtually every one of these systems had at least a boxed set and a hardback
book to them. Bringing the minimum investment to $60. When you discuss the
added product we're talking hundreds of dollars.
From 11 stated settings, TSR (as of year 2000) will support 3. What
about the gamers in the other settings? Straight-up, they're turning their
backs on you. They say "we cannot afford to support every line". Alright, we
can handle that... explain this... Why did they stop Mystara? It's reported
that it was doing anything but running in the red. What about Ravenloft? The
support on that list is almost as strong as it is on the Realms list.
I've play-tested 3rd edition, played the game for 23 years, and studied
the company for about that long. Has TSR told you that they're
"streamlining" the system again? Look at their FAQ on the subject, they've
stated 11 books in there that they "might" produced. Stream-lining.
I have signed NDA's with WotC and I dropped out of the 3rd ed.
play-testing because myself and the rest of my group (a very diverse group
of players ranging in age from 16-33 and gaming experience from brand new to
23 years. Fans of 6 different genres, and both sexes). None of us liked the
new work.
WotC has stated that conversion isn't that difficult. Here's some
questions on that fact. 1) I've got 23 years worth of adventures, monsters,
npc's, magic items. How many do you have? Try converting them in numbers and
power from 2nd edition to any other game system on the market and consider
the time involved there. That's what WotC is talking about, 2) How many
times have you heard a A BOOK (Emphasis not shouting) to convert from one
edition to another in a game? That's what WotC talks about in their FAQ, 3)
How many times have you ever heard of needing to buy a book to convert from
an old edition to a new one? More often than not, conversion charts are in
the new material.
While I do have respect for many of the designers that I've met and
worked with through WotC, I am finished with AD&D. In MY book- D&D will
always be the game that existed before 1st edition, and 3rd edition will
never exist !!!!!
TSR's history has always been "expand the market" and forget about the
customer base that they've already got. If you don't believe it, just ask
the fans who've been turned off by their discontinuing any one of the gaming
worlds.
Maybe in 5 years, after WotC has milked every penny possible out of 3rd
edition, I'll come back for a bit and see if Hasbro can do anything to fix
the problems. To all of you, who've been great talking to, listening to,
arguing with, and wonderful for ideas in my (once) favorite gaming system,
and favorite gaming worlds... I guess it's "later"... Feel free to write me
at the e-mail address below, maybe one day in the not too distant future,
I'll have a mailing list established to cater to those who are boy-cotting
WotC/TSR as I will be now.
Anyway, finally to those who've been supporting the "dead world" lists-
Dark Sun, Mystara, Dragonlance, Greyhawk (until recently), Birthright,
Planescape, Spelljammer, Al-Qadim, and Ravenloft (as of 2000)- I salute you
and fare thee well for those worlds will never die in your hearts and minds.

Jesse
vanquer@email.msn.com







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[ron poirier]

Blather blather blather... Rah rah rah...
Gripe gripe gripe...

*Sigh*

When 3rd Ed. comes out, I will buy it. I will take what I like, discard
what I don't like, and play what is left on the table. Just like I always do.

Yeah, I've been playing since the old "Basic" D&D boxed sets with Erol Otus
artwork on the cover. So I've seen it all, too.

- Ron ^*^


At 04:57 AM 9/21/99 -0700, you wrote:
>Hello All,
>
> First off, let me apologize for a couple of things. 1) For those lists
>which have "key words" sorry- I wasn't about to go through the keywords for
>10 different mailing lists just to post a msg, 2) For cross-posting, those
>of you who are on multiple lists are going to get this missive in multiplet.
>My apologies again.
> Unfortunately, what I have to say is relevant to all of the lists and
>rather than say it 10 different ways to 10 different groups, I'm saying it
>once to gamers in general. I'm not posting this for purposes of debate, but
>more to express a dissatisfaction and see how many others feel the same way.
> For those who feel the same way that I do about all this, please write
>me- I'd love to hear from you and maybe discuss alternatives to the problem.
>
> A short bit of history, and the problems will reveal themselves I think.
>I started role-playing in 1975 using a water works game to randomly
>determine dungeons and dice counters to use as monsters because I'd heard
>just enough about D&D to get my mind working.
> By Christmas of 1976 I had the D&D Basic rules boxed set, and started
>playing that day. It was not long before I made a transition from D&D to
>AD&D because it made more sense to me in the ability to mix-match classes
>and races.
> (For those of you who don't know, "Elf" in D&D meant your class/race was
>an Elf. The equivalent of an Elven Fighter/Magic-User, "Hobbit" was a Thief,
>etc.)
> About 1990, they cancelled Greyhawk as the predominent setting and
>brought the Realms out. Now, in 2000, WotC is planning to do the same thing
>again to the Forgotten Realms. While this may be somewhat of a
>pleasure/relief to Greyhawk gamers, it definitely isn't to those who enjoy
>the Realms (And no I'm not one of them).
> Alright, now on to the problems. Those who never played 1st edition
>because 2nd was already out might wish to take some notes, because many of
>you will be up on the soapbox one day wishing to hell that you'd listened to
>this, just like I'm wishing I could remember the talk when we went to 2nd.
> When 1st edition ended, there were something like 15 hardback books.
>TSR's statements at the time were that they were going to cut back to two
>hardbacks and a couple monstrous compendium notebooks. The plan with the
>notebooks was that each monster would take up a page (Front and back) so
>that they could be inserted into the books and alphabetized for quick
>reference.
> The basic statement was that they were "stream-lining" the system. The
>truth of the matter turned out to be that TSR was going broke and they
>needed to boost sales. Putting out 2nd edition and a new world fulfilled
>that need for them.
> Not too long ago, statements were made by various TSR staff-members that
>the Realms, Planescape, and Ravenloft would not be cut with the advent of
>3rd edition. Guess what? Bullshit. They've cut Ravenloft. I don't know about
>the other two, because I'm not as involved in them.
> Currently, TSR has produced the following worlds: Al-Qadim, Kara-Tur
>(Both were shifted to the Realms AFTER their inception), Dark-Sun,
>Dragonlance, Forgotten Realms, Greyhawk, Birthright, Mystara, Planescape,
>Ravenloft, and Spelljjammer.
> Out of these, countless dollars were spent on all of these by gamers.
>Virtually every one of these systems had at least a boxed set and a hardback
>book to them. Bringing the minimum investment to $60. When you discuss the
>added product we're talking hundreds of dollars.
> From 11 stated settings, TSR (as of year 2000) will support 3. What
>about the gamers in the other settings? Straight-up, they're turning their
>backs on you. They say "we cannot afford to support every line". Alright, we
>can handle that... explain this... Why did they stop Mystara? It's reported
>that it was doing anything but running in the red. What about Ravenloft? The
>support on that list is almost as strong as it is on the Realms list.
> I've play-tested 3rd edition, played the game for 23 years, and studied
>the company for about that long. Has TSR told you that they're
>"streamlining" the system again? Look at their FAQ on the subject, they've
>stated 11 books in there that they "might" produced. Stream-lining.
> I have signed NDA's with WotC and I dropped out of the 3rd ed.
>play-testing because myself and the rest of my group (a very diverse group
>of players ranging in age from 16-33 and gaming experience from brand new to
>23 years. Fans of 6 different genres, and both sexes). None of us liked the
>new work.
> WotC has stated that conversion isn't that difficult. Here's some
>questions on that fact. 1) I've got 23 years worth of adventures, monsters,
>npc's, magic items. How many do you have? Try converting them in numbers and
>power from 2nd edition to any other game system on the market and consider
>the time involved there. That's what WotC is talking about, 2) How many
>times have you heard a A BOOK (Emphasis not shouting) to convert from one
>edition to another in a game? That's what WotC talks about in their FAQ, 3)
>How many times have you ever heard of needing to buy a book to convert from
>an old edition to a new one? More often than not, conversion charts are in
>the new material.
> While I do have respect for many of the designers that I've met and
>worked with through WotC, I am finished with AD&D. In MY book- D&D will
>always be the game that existed before 1st edition, and 3rd edition will
>never exist !!!!!
> TSR's history has always been "expand the market" and forget about the
>customer base that they've already got. If you don't believe it, just ask
>the fans who've been turned off by their discontinuing any one of the gaming
>worlds.
> Maybe in 5 years, after WotC has milked every penny possible out of 3rd
>edition, I'll come back for a bit and see if Hasbro can do anything to fix
>the problems. To all of you, who've been great talking to, listening to,
>arguing with, and wonderful for ideas in my (once) favorite gaming system,
>and favorite gaming worlds... I guess it's "later"... Feel free to write me
>at the e-mail address below, maybe one day in the not too distant future,
>I'll have a mailing list established to cater to those who are boy-cotting
>WotC/TSR as I will be now.
> Anyway, finally to those who've been supporting the "dead world" lists-
>Dark Sun, Mystara, Dragonlance, Greyhawk (until recently), Birthright,
>Planescape, Spelljammer, Al-Qadim, and Ravenloft (as of 2000)- I salute you
>and fare thee well for those worlds will never die in your hearts and minds.
>
>Jesse
>vanquer@email.msn.com
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>************************************************** *************************
>To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com
>with the line 'unsubscribe birthright' as the body of the message.
>
>
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[Grimwell, Cerilian]

>From: ron poirier
>Blather blather blather... Rah rah rah...
>Gripe gripe gripe...
>
>*Sigh*
>
>When 3rd Ed. comes out, I will buy it. I will take what I like, discard
>what I don't like, and play what is left on the table. Just like I always
>do.
>
>Yeah, I've been playing since the old "Basic" D&D boxed sets with Erol Otus
>artwork on the cover. So I've seen it all, too.
>
> - Ron ^*^
>

Preach on Brother Beavis,

I'm never more confused by any other gamer than the one who gets
discouraged, makes a grandoise and "final" leave from the official setting,
and then leaves and closes the door.

Many of us have seen the long road change. Sometimes the game took the fork
in the right direciton, sometimes it took the other one. While we should
ernestly combat the company and keep our voice heard, we should not expect
walking away with our hands defiantly raised to do much.

The Greyhawk fans proved you can accomplish something if you work in and
around the system at the same time. It's my hope that we here on the
Birthright list are doing the same thing.

A few people within the company have whispered the desire or potential for
BR to see at least a limited release under 3E rules. I am all for it.

I too will by 3E, and judge it when I read it. Until then, walking away and
pulling off some blatant stunt for publicity is worthless. Plus, gamers are
already a "underground" in popular culture as it is. Can we really support a
"gamers underground" ????? :)


>
Grimwell, wizard of Cerilia
The Birthright Revival is NOW! :)
When you've had the best, why buy the rest?

__________________________________________________ ____
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[Olesens]

Grimwell wrote:

>

> The Greyhawk fans proved you can accomplish something if you work in and
> around the system at the same time. It's my hope that we here on the
> Birthright list are doing the same thing.
>
> A few people within the company have whispered the desire or potential for
> BR to see at least a limited release under 3E rules. I am all for it.
>
>

I agree, we can do it. I think that our major problem is that we haven't been
really consistent. It's been on and off the list, people acting and then moving
on to other things. Now I know that there are those very dedicated souls out
there who are constantly keeping the good work up, and I commend them. But we
need more than a few people. Instead of haphazardly pestering TSR/WotC and
working on projects, I say we should plan out our campaign to revive
Birthright. Let's load all our guns, aim 'em, and fire in unison. There are
many on this list that are better and this stuff than me, so I'll throw in my
suggestions then see what we can do. There are three major things I think we
can do. Firstly, show support by expanding the setting wether or not TSR will,
namely by our many projects, Birthright.net being the center for that.
Secondly, bringing all the "lost" BR gamers on the web into our list (or a
seperate "revival list" for those who don't want to get all the regular BR list
emails). In looking for players for ITSoD, I've found about a dozen people at
www.pbem.com who play BR but aren't on the list or get into BR once I tell them
about it. Let's advertise everywhere on the web we can to get new players and
unify the exsisting ones. Finally, we should continue in unison with our
emailing of TSR staff members. Think, if every one of TSR's Brand Managers and
other important people got an email from every member of this list (there are
curently like 300 or 400 people?) on the same day, each telling why they
love/like BR and why it should be brought back. Then that followed by a similar
number of snail mail letters comming in during the following days. They
couldn't ignore us then.

Longer than I expected.... Okay, I'll stop now.

- -Andrew
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[Kenneth Gauck]

Role-Playing games are fundamentally games of imagination. If you can't
play it without a company spoon feeding it to you, get expanded cable
service.

Frankly, I prefer that there have been 11 lines produced by TSR. That's
variety. Something you don't get with 3 lines that are a gazillion years
old, and the only new material being produced either is reduced to defining
how many socks Albert the Blacksmith has, or changing the world for you.

I get the impression Jesse LaBranche wishes Ozzie and Harriet and Dick van
Dyke were still on TV, rather than shows being added and deleted from the
prime time line-up.

As it happens, quality game materials come from lots of different avenues
being pursued and the good ones being explored. But there are limits to
people's interest in a game world and a limit to the quality contributions
that can be made.

I hope that in the next 25 years, TSR/WoC gives us another 10 plus worlds,
so that I can select what *I* like from what is out there. I would *hate*
to think that I would have been stuck with 3 worlds supported since 1975 and
nothing there that really attracted me like BR did.

BR was the only Box Set I purchased, and I was pleased with the whole
campaign. Never would have happened if TSR hadn't tried a bunch of stuff
knowing they could not support everything they tried.

Make a lot of products and hope some of them are as good as you want all of
them to be.

Kenneth Gauck
c558382@earthlink.net

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[Pieter A de Jong]

Olesens wrote:

>

> . Finally, we should continue in unison with our
> emailing of TSR staff members. Think, if every one of TSR's Brand Managers and
> other important people got an email from every member of this list (there are
> curently like 300 or 400 people?) on the same day, each telling why they
> love/like BR and why it should be brought back. Then that followed by a similar
> number of snail mail letters comming in during the following days. They
> couldn't ignore us then.



What you have just proposed is effectively a mail bomb. I am confident that this
would not be appreciated.
- --

Pieter A de Jong
Graduate Mechanical Engineering Student
University of Saskatchewan, Saskatoon, Canada


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[Olesens]

Pieter A de Jong wrote:

> Olesens wrote:
>
> >
>
> > . Finally, we should continue in unison with our
> > emailing of TSR staff members. Think, if every one of TSR's Brand Managers and
> > other important people got an email from every member of this list (there are
> > curently like 300 or 400 people?) on the same day, each telling why they
> > love/like BR and why it should be brought back. Then that followed by a similar
> > number of snail mail letters comming in during the following days. They
> > couldn't ignore us then.
>
>
>
> What you have just proposed is effectively a mail bomb. I am confident that this
> would not be appreciated.

Sorry, I didn't intend it that way.

- -Andrew
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[Michael Benner]

Evening All. As you can see my comments on this subject are not reflected
at anyone but are simply my opinion on the subject matter. I often keep my
opinions to myself. Although I remain in the shadows I have read every
message that this groups has written since I joined 4 months ago.

I joined this group for inspiration on the BR campaigns and adventures that
I design. I used to rely on TSR/WoTC to give me this inspiration but they
have abandoned the great and majestic campaign setting. The chances of
TSR/WoTC/Hasbro ressurrecting BR are slim to none. So I hope this will
inspire all of us to write our own adventures and materials, flesh out the
Shadow World that is still a mystery, and give the creatures that we know
exist flesh and blood by giving them stats and Ecology and then share them
with the group. We have to do this since TSR/WoTC/Hasbro refuse to.

I know gleam every useful piece of information this group sends and I
encourage everyone to send more. I know, I and my group have benefited from
the discussions we hold here and I thank you.

Michael a.k.a "Caramus Lightsand"

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[Grimwell, Cerilian]

What you have just proposed is effectively a mail bomb. I am confident that
this
would not be appreciated.
- --

Pieter A de Jong
Graduate Mechanical Engineering Student
University of Saskatchewan, Saskatoon, Canada


I thought that a mail bomb was a single repeated message from a single user
designed to flood a persons inbox. Back in my VAX days we had a program for
that. Called up a cheezy graphic of the starship enterprise and sent photons
to them for your bombs. you could flood a box and end apersons day until you
got caught....

Now then, Multiple people sending individual messages to a few people;
that's just email.

At least that's how I see it. To further things, here's a few addresses to
hit in case you guys want to write some!

Keith Strohm
Brand Manager
tsrkeith@aol.com

Ryan Darcey
Brand Manager
ryand@frpg.com

To take the point further, Rich Baker told me that contacting these people
about our beloved game was DEAD ON a good idea directed to the right people.
Apparently they make decisions. He didn't say bomb them and shut their box
down. He did say an occasional poke/reminder that BR has fans would be
productive in that it shows demand and customer willingness.

Sick em!


>
Grimwell, wizard of Cerilia
The Birthright Revival is NOW! :)
When you've had the best, why buy the rest?

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[Jesse LaBranche]

Hello All,

This will be my last list post directly on the subject, due to the fact
that actual debate of 3rd ed. is anything but Birthright material.
Especially considering that there is no such thing as Birthright any more
(At least from WotC's perspective).
I will gladly discuss such points in private e-mail with both sides of
the coin as long as it remains discussion and not flaming. The reason for
this post is that I apparently misrepresented my intent when it comes to my
activity within D&D/AD&D, so here goes...

> >When 3rd Ed. comes out, I will buy it. I will take what I like, discard
> >what I don't like, and play what is left on the table. Just like I
always
> >do.
> > - Ron ^*^

Hmm... How much Birthright will you be buying?

> Preach on Brother Beavis,
> I'm never more confused by any other gamer than the one who gets
> discouraged, makes a grandoise and "final" leave from the official
setting,
> and then leaves and closes the door.

I didn't think it was a "grandiose final leave", however I am definitely
closing
the door on 3rd edition as it is not the same game as AD&D. It just has the
AD&D label on it.
I will still be an active participant in the D&D, 1st, and 2nd edition
products,
and will never stop RPing in general. Hope this clarified my earlier
statements,
and lifted some of that confusion- at least towards myself.

> Many of us have seen the long road change. Sometimes the game took the
fork
> in the right direciton, sometimes it took the other one. While we should
> ernestly combat the company and keep our voice heard, we should not expect
> walking away with our hands defiantly raised to do much.

Right now, the funds that go into 3rd edition from 2nd edition (and
prior fans) is
what will keep WotC running until the campaign for "expansion to new
markets"
takes place.
If none, or very few, of the current base were to embrace 3rd edition it
could
not remain supported long enough for this "new fan base" to be established.
In
essence, my letter was more of a probe to get a feel for support/opposition
than
anything else, and to put out the truth on the matter.
Anyway, at present, it appears that my idea of a full-scale boycott of
the 3rd ed
system is not going to be an effective measure because there are not enough
of
the D&D and 1st edition gamers willing to tell the 2nd edition group that it
could
work, and the 2nd ed. group hasn't already been through the change to
realize
what 3rd ed. will mean for them in general.

> The Greyhawk fans proved you can accomplish something if you work in and
> around the system at the same time. It's my hope that we here on the
> Birthright list are doing the same thing.

If this were truth, rather than the perception that WotC would prefer to
be
fostered, then Mystara would already have done the same thing, and it would
have happened for Greyhawk much sooner.
The actual truth of the matter (And I am NOT calling you a liar) is that
WotC
could not hope to bring those who were not playing in the Realms into them.
They could not cancel the Realms because of the number of fans in them.
Instead of putting the work and funding into a new product, they simply
revived an old one. Then they run with two fan-bases until the expansion of
the
new market in 2-5 years when they drop one of the worlds (Any guesses which
one gets phased out?)

> A few people within the company have whispered the desire or potential for
> BR to see at least a limited release under 3E rules. I am all for it.

And more than a few within the company have voiced the desire and
potential
for Mystara to be revived. I'm all for it too. Yeah, they'll probably
release a VERY
LIMITED print-run for each of the worlds to convert to 3rd ed.
They'll also, most likely, put conversion information in their
conversion book for
most of the game specific mechanics for most worlds. This will be just
enough to
give you the means to convert to 3rd ed. and further support the line, while
they
leave Birthright as a "dead world".
I don't expect most of you to believe the above statement. Instead, keep
it and
see if the "nay-saying predictions" don't come true.

> I too will by 3E, and judge it when I read it. Until then, walking away
and
> pulling off some blatant stunt for publicity is worthless. Plus, gamers
are
> already a "underground" in popular culture as it is. Can we really support
a
> "gamers underground" ????? :)

This definitely wasn't a "publicity stunt". It was an attempt to let the
truth out
about what 3rd edition really is. Can we support a gamer's underground? It
would
be no less fragmenting than the moves from D&D to AD&D or from 1st ed to
2nd.
Can we continue to support a company who has shown that they don't care
about
the role-playing community?

> Grimwell, wizard of Cerilia
> The Birthright Revival is NOW! :)
> When you've had the best, why buy the rest?

Jesse.
vanquer@email.msn.com



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[Jesse LaBranche]

> Role-Playing games are fundamentally games of imagination. If you can't
> play it without a company spoon feeding it to you, get expanded cable
> service.

Nobody said that I couldn't play it without a company spoon-feeding it
to me.
Maybe I should invest in cable before expanded cable eh?

> Frankly, I prefer that there have been 11 lines produced by TSR. That's
> variety. Something you don't get with 3 lines that are a gazillion years
> old, and the only new material being produced either is reduced to
defining
> how many socks Albert the Blacksmith has, or changing the world for you.

Yeah, I'd prefer 11 lines still out by TSR than 3. That's more variety.
As far
as a gazillion years old goes and defining whether Albert the blacksmith has
socks or not- that is caused by a lack of imagination on the designers'
parts
not by the age of the line.
Als, as far as changing the world goes, that is apparently the only way
that
TSR has managed to figure out how to do it. I have a campaign world that is
about 15 years old, still getting new material written for it on a regular
basis,
and

> I get the impression Jesse LaBranche wishes Ozzie and Harriet and Dick van
> Dyke were still on TV, rather than shows being added and deleted from the
> prime time line-up.

No, those were all a little before my time. A TV lineup is determined
much
more by time available than by financial resources AFAIK though. And we're
definitely talking about two completely different things here.

> As it happens, quality game materials come from lots of different avenues
> being pursued and the good ones being explored. But there are limits to
> people's interest in a game world and a limit to the quality contributions
> that can be made.

Since when? On both counts.

> I hope that in the next 25 years, TSR/WoC gives us another 10 plus worlds,
> so that I can select what *I* like from what is out there. I would *hate*
> to think that I would have been stuck with 3 worlds supported since 1975
and
> nothing there that really attracted me like BR did.

I'd hope that they'd give us more interesting variations and cultures on
the
various worlds that are/were already in print. 3 Worlds supported since 1975
would not be bad.
Consider the fact that a single world could support different cultures
(like
the differences between cultures in RL and DS from the more traditional
fantasy lines).
I'd imagine that I could run the BR system on any world that TSR has
ever
created, and I'd imagine that I could run material from most worlds on the
BR world.

> BR was the only Box Set I purchased, and I was pleased with the whole
> campaign. Never would have happened if TSR hadn't tried a bunch of stuff
> knowing they could not support everything they tried.

Somehow, I get the impression that Birthright may have had a chance to
be one of the leading product lines had they left a longer print-run on it
and
promoted it more.
I hadn't even heard of Birthright before it was OOP, and that was only
because a friend had procured every product in the line while he was in
Germany.

> Make a lot of products and hope some of them are as good as you want all
of
> them to be.
> Kenneth Gauck
> c558382@earthlink.net

Or take the time and make the efforts to be sure that it is good and
that
the market will support it before you release it.

Later.

Jesse.
vanquer@email.msn.com




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[Tim Nutting]

I love this... You know, I've got a couple of old timers in my group, I
kind of feel like one myself, guess its a symptom of getting old and
decrepit. I've also noticed getting set in my ways.

Here's the sad news folks:

It's a business. WotC/TSR/Hasbro, whatever. They are there, spending the
money they spend, to turn a profit, plain and simple. Customer service only
counts if you meet your bottom line, and holding the game back for "customer
service" is about as stupid and suicidal a move as anyone can make. 2nd
doesn't sell, they're moving on.

Deal with it. The beauty of Free Market is that you don't have to buy a
thrice cursed thing. If you like it, buy it, show your support by giving
them a few bucks. If you don't, deny them your expendable cash and do
something else that strokes your feather.

Quit if you want, play 2nd if you like, or by Nessus play the original. I
could care less.

Later

Tim
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