Ships?

[Angelbialaska]

I was wondering if I'm the only one that feels the construction of ships has gotten very difficult?

Almost all the Anuirean rulers that have some naval power have Galleons with the exception of Brosengae. Most Khinasi realms with naval power have Zebecs.

The major problem with this though, is that according to the rules, then to construct a Galleon you need a shipyard level 8, and since the shipyard level can't exceed the province level, this means that only Imperial City can construct galleons, so all galleons, also those held by pirates and such, must all be bought in Imperial City?

The same goes for Zebecs. Their cost of 17 GB means that you need a shipyard level 9 to build it. Since I can't remember any level 9 provinces in Khinasi, then they too order their ships in Imperial City?

In the old system you could construct any ship as long as you had a level 4 port. Maybe we should put in that instead, otherwise it makes little to no sense.

[irdeggman]

It should be difficult to construct ships. The 2nd ed mechanics were too loose and had no real basis in reality.

From personal experience (I've worked at the 2nd largest, was the largest up to about 7 years ago) naval shipyard in the world for going on 24 years now and I can verify that ship construction is very expensive and time consuming.

Even if one tries to say that modern construction is more difficult than medieval construction, that is the level of detail involved, I would also point out that there were more limitations on population (i.e., the number of people who can be dedicated to constructing ships), resources (it was harder to transport the materials needed to construct ships in older times - which is why they were built near the sources of the materials necessary), maintenance costs - skilled labor that didn't maintain proficiency got worse with time (actually this concept applies to both time periods).

Basically shipyard maintenance costs are probably too low in the BRCS based on resource allocation to maintain proficiency. If one shifts the skill labor to other (more lucrative tasks) then they make a ship much slower due to skills atrophying. On the other hand the profit margin for ship construction is probably also too low.

[Angelbialaska]

I'm not saying that it's not difficult to construct ships. I know it's a complicated process. But the ships require too large shipyards. It can't be true that you can only have galleons and zebecs constructed in Imperial City, because no other province is large enough for a ship yard that size.

If we look at history, then both UK, France, Spain, Portugal and probably many more were able to construct galleons. They didn't have to go to Constantinoble to ask for such ships to be constructed.

If anything, then I might suggest, if there should be the limit for how much you can build, that you may construct ships with 3 times the shipyards size. That way we have more provinces than Imperial City that can construct Galleons and Zebecs.

If you want to put more upkeep on shipyards, then you'll be hurting the already very wounded Ilien. 2GB to upkeep that they spend for a level 6 shipyard is already hurting them a lot, with their 10GB income and the need for a 7GB court and their castle.

If you want to prevent people from getting too huge fleets, then simply remove the garrison option from them, so that the cost for a galleon is 1 1/4 GB per turn. Then people might not have fleets that are colossal.

[irdeggman]

There was a lot of discussion a while ago concerning raising the size of a shipyard above the listed limit based but with an increased cost. I'd have to do a more in depth search of older threads (I think it was early this past summer). This was something that was going to be incorporated into the revision of the chapter (remember the chapter has not been revised yet so you are still looking at the playtest version). I think Ian posted the suggestion, but I can't recall.



If we look at history, then both UK, France, Spain, Portugal and probably many more were able to construct galleons. They didn't have to go to Constantinoble to ask for such ships to be constructed

Are we assuming that only Constantinople was of high enough level (in BR terms)? I wouldn't. I think in each of your specific examples there was at least one city that was of sufficient level to accomplish this and most had their equivalent.

[Thomas_Percy]

I don't see any reason to construct galleons at all if they are expensive and hard to build.
In the world where
one Control Weather spell or
single aquatic elf with Warp Wood or
single dire octopus controlled by spellcaster or
etc. etc.
can destroy all the fleet, there is no sense for building big and expensive ships.
Caravels, cogs (sailing ships) and coasters are enough to transport mass, cheap things or soldiers for trade routes and rulers.

[Angelbialaska]

I used Constantinoble since I seem to remember that as being the largest city in the past. So Imperial City would be Constantinoble in my example.

As for why to choose Galleons over cogs/caravels? (Cogs and Caravels are about the same strength, just Cogs being slower), then the galleons ability to carry three units is a definite advantage when you are going to attack someone or board someone.

Also the mentioning of magic getting involved, then I personally feel that a battlecaster is better in a strong, well-defended and powerful unit than in one of three weaker ones.

[Lee]

In a message dated 1/26/05 6:37:53 AM Eastern Standard Time,

brnetboard@BIRTHRIGHT.NET writes:



<< The major problem with this though, is that according to the rules, then

to construct a Galleon you need a shipyard level 8, and since the shipyard

level can`t exceed the province level, this means that only Imperial City can

construct galleons, so all galleons, also those held by pirates and such, must all

be bought in Imperial City? >>



Maybe those rulers did go to IC for them, as a status symbol? Doesn`t work

for the zebecs, though.



Perhaps one could build "outsize" ships at smaller shipyards for

increased cost and time.



Lee.

[irdeggman]

Aquatic elf in Birthright? Forget the commonality of high level magic found in Forgotten Realms and go with the lower level spellcasters of BR. There are not many wizards in BR (those that can cast greater magic) so it becomes greatly limited.

While it is possible for high level cleric (or druid) to do this. The caster still has to be in the area since the spell is centered on the caster.

Galleons and Zebecs are warships whose primary function is to transport ships. a caravel or cog can carry a single mounted unit, but as written a Zebec cannot - at one time we discussed the fact that the Zebec&#39;s numbers were too low.

Basically a galleon can carry 3 foot units or 2 mounted units. So getting troops to a given location is quicker with it than a caravel or cog. In combat a galleon and zebec both pound the cravel and cog into obliteration, again they are war ships and not efficient for use in a sea trade route, while caravels and cogs are more suited for that function. Caravels and cogs are not about the same strength as a galleon. A difference of 1 hit for a military unit is tremendous. The galleons defense rating, and melee attack are much higher.

[Angelbialaska]

There are fewer than 150 true mages in Cerilia (Book of Magecraft). Of those we have maybe 50 in the College of Sorcery, since they have a dozen students who train 3-10 years. Then the 10 council leaders. Then the maybe 20 other mages around Anuire, including the realm mages.

Other than these, we have 3 mages in Rjurik lands, a couple of handfulls in Brecht lands. Then I&#39;m not sure how many in Khinasi lands, but it can&#39;t be many more than 30, since we also got the Elves and they really have at least 30 mages too.

Given these numbers, that would leave your chance of encountering a Wizard on sea insanely low, and of those encountered you&#39;ll not find many of high enough level to cast fireball.

[The Jew]

I don&#39;t know where the thread discussing this is, I do remember the most pertinenant changes that were generally agreed upon.

Each shipyard could build ships of up to 2.5 GB of its level. So there would be 4 citys capable of building galleons.

For every 2 levels, only 1 court action could be used per month. So a level 4 shipyard could use up to 2 court actions a month to build ships.

For every 2 levels, 1 ship could be docked within the shipyard without upkeep cost.

Of course, none of these changes have been voted on so are still up for discussion.

[epicsoul]

That&#39;s a good addendum. However, I still think that the easiest one is this; if you can overbuild your fortresses compared to the level of the province, why can&#39;t you do the same with your shipyards? Just increase the cost and maintenance of them.

[The incredible, edible Phil]

Venice was for a great period of time the largest port within catholic nations (in the 12th and 13th century it was also the largest city within catholic nations).

If it is set at 2.5 * province level, Anuire can nbuild galleons at the Imperial City, Bhaine in Taeghas, Anuire in Avanil, Calrie in Aerenwe, Ciliene in Diemed, and 1 or 2 provinces in Boeruine.

[Cardinal Malik]

The idea that only a level 8 city can build a galleon is just dumb. According to the naval battle rules many realms have large navies. The city of Ilien, who&#39;s port is supposed to be the greatest in southern Anuire, can&#39;t build ships according to that rule. If it was added to "prevent" players from having huge navies, then it is an even dumber rule. Placing limits on a player is a sure way to get them to abandon your game. Besides, the fleet cost rules pay for the ships themselves, not the units you put on them. You can have all the ships you can afford but if you have no units to put on them, your navy is going to suck. Lift the limits on ship building, If a player wants to build navies and puts his resources and energy in that direction, there&#39;s no reason not to let them.
Besides, if you can exceed the castle rating beyond the province level, you should be able to do the same with ship building.

[Thomas_Percy]

Originally posted by Angelbialaska+Jan 26 2005, 05:55 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Angelbialaska &#064; Jan 26 2005, 05:55 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> There are fewer than 150 true mages in Cerilia (Book of Magecraft). [/b]
And:
<!--QuoteBegin-Angelbialaska
OIT in Diemed
Total number of clergy: 221
About half of the clergy should be level 0, which in D&D probably means Experts, while the other half (about 110) consist of spellcasting clerics. [/quote]
So, mages are rare.
Clerics not so rare. There are a druids too, and a lot of monsters.

And even if we assume, that all they are rare, i have a strange feeling, that among PCs there will be a lot of spellcasters, because players like magic.
And I have second strange feeling, that tens of gold bars speneded on the galeons are enough to hire one spellcaster to sink a fleet down.

So imho ships should be cheap as other cannon foder and available at every province with a shipyard and access to the wood (thanks to the forest-type or a trade route to the forest).

[irdeggman]

Originally posted by Thomas_Percy@Jan 26 2005, 05:28 PM
Clerics not so rare. There are a druids too,
Druids are part of the cleric numbers. See 2nd ed material Druids are clerics of Erik. That is even in the playtest document or the latest version of Chap 1 there are no free ranging druids in Birthright they get their power and abilities from their patron deity, Erik.

Essentially the priests of Erik are divided amongst clerics and druids. These are rare in all but Rjurik lands so comng across druids throughout Cerilia is pretty rare in itself.

[Raesene Andu]

One thing with ships, in my games I have always used their muster costs (e.g. 15 GB for a Galleon) to be their BUILD cost, not the price you have to pay if you want to buy the ship for someone else.

I make the PURCHASE price an addition 1/3 higher than the build cost. So using the galleon for example, it would cost 15 GB to make, and 20 GB to buy outright.

Also, it is just me or do the stats for Zebec really not match up well with the Galleon, despite costing 2 GB more to build a Zebec. It was the same way in 2E of course, but I would have expected more from a ship that is built specifically for war. I guess those Khinasi just aren&#39;t good shipbuilders.

[irdeggman]

I&#39;ve always thought that the market value of a ship should be twice what you had to pay to build it Similarly to the way the craft skill works. That way it is mechanically similar to the core rules and a handy profit is made by a shipyard.

And yes I don&#39;t quite like the Zebec&#39;s numbers either. Should have more bunks and hits, IMO. Less cargo than a galleon but more troop capacity and a stronger hull. It is as pure a warship as you get, while the galleon can function as a cargo ship too, albeit an expensive one.

[Raesene Andu]

I have no problem with the market value being x2 the build cost. Sure makes those shipyards important to realms, and gives those high level coastal provinces a nice industry (ship building) to boost their income.

It could also provide a solution to Ilien&#39;s gold problem. All the count needs to do is built one galleon a season, sell it, and he makes an extra 15 GB income, enough to cover the cost of his shipyard, and his other assets.

[epicsoul]

Solving Ilien&#39;s lack of gold thru ship-building is how I actually made ends meet in one campaign I played. That, plus alchemy could turn a tidy sum for Ilien. Other players often didn&#39;t want to spend the time on ship-building, or needed to rebuild fleets quickly, after an engagement. However, I never sold them for twice their value. Usually, I would only get about a 3 or 4 GB profit for a galleon, 1 or 1.5 for a caravel. Finding buyers was difficult; except once the pirates started attacking, and then, man, I couldn&#39;t build enough of them&#33; Guilders were usually happy to buy off of me... and I suspect one or two of &#39;em WERE the pirates. Rogr turned a blind eye to the buyers, as long as the economy flowed.

He also had the deal worked out that El-hadid would get a "favoured" rate, and would only pay cost plus 10%.

It got dull sometimes spending so many court actions on build actions. But, ah well.

[The Jew]

I think a rate of 30%-60% is about right, depending on demand. I can&#39;t imagine spending 30 GB&#39;s for a Galleon, it really does not seem worth it. You could conquer a medium sized realm for the cost of 2 of them. 25 GB&#39;s is about the most I could see paying, and then only if I was really desperate.

[Justinius_ExMortis]

Alot of good points have been brought up through out this thread. Let me recap and reply.

1. 2.5 GB of production capability is an excellent balance for producing ships. Keep in mind that you can have all the production capability in the world and it doesn&#39;t mean squat you haven&#39;t the money to spend. Also allowing for a goodly sized port to be capable of producing Galleons is a godsend in so much as balancing rules and reason. As we all know, rules and reason rarely go hand in hand. ;)

2. 30% to 60% mark up on selling a ship is not only appropriate based on you have doing the negotiating but also historically accurate. Ships were a must have in the ancient world for any coastal power and very could produce enough of their own to really meet the demand at all times. This of course drove the price up, high demand and low production always makes a mint, so to speak. When it comes to the ancient world no price is set in stone. Negotiation is half the fun when it comes to hiring mercenaries, master builders, and buying the various necessities of the realm. I play a guilder by the way, surprising isn&#39;t it?

3. Magic users and crushing fleets. Interesting concept, how exactly do you suggest that a world of 2nd and 3rd level characters destroy entire fleets with a wave of their hands? You&#39;re average BR campaign, unless you plan to go after the Gorgon is only going to range between first and tenth level. Considering the difference betwen spell area of effects and the distances involved in even ancient naval combat you&#39;ll fine that few tenth level casters can really effectively do anything more than burn a few ships, the equivalent of perhaps a single hit on vessels caught in the Area of effect of a spell. Also, re-read control weather. A ship killer that spell is not. Storm of Vengeance on the other hand....but again, consider level restraints. Besides, what&#39;s wrong with a really high level wizard standing on the cliff side, passing his steely gaze over the arrogant lords expensive fleet and teaching him a thing or two about interupting grouchy mages in the middle of their studies with something mundane like a war?

4. Ship killing monsters are extremely rare. Big undersea monsters, just like their land based couter parts tend to be blooded scions of Azrai, ex. the Sea Serpent. Besides look at nature, there are few ship killing sea creatures that are anywhere near the surface of the ocean and we&#39;ve only recently found proof that the big ship killers of the deep deep sea actually exist.


That pretty much covers what I was thinking about. A powerful navy is hard to come by but is also a powerful weapon against any coastal province and only in rare circumstances is the coin ever wasted in the production of a powerful war fleet. As a side note, the Zebec stats need a serious overhaul.

Justin

"Stand before an army by yourself, folly. Fall before an army and inspire the thousands at your back, greatness."

"Heroes; romantic, legendary, glorious...tragic. Better a farmer who dies old and in bed then a hero."

[graham anderson]

What about longships and their like they are klinker build and shouldn&#39;t realy require a shipyard. Meaning the poorer rjurik and vos nations dont have to pay to maintain a shipyard.

[irdeggman]

Originally posted by graham anderson@Jan 29 2005, 02:21 PM
What about longships and their like they are klinker build and shouldn&#39;t realy require a shipyard. Meaning the poorer rjurik and vos nations dont have to pay to maintain a shipyard.
I have to disagree.

Sure we can just give away freebees but there is supposed to be some kind of trade off here. Long ships don&#39;t require much in the way of a shipyard to construct. Pretty much a shipyard in name only. There is supposed to be tradeoffs for everythng done. The Vos and Rjurik weren&#39;t much in the way of naval powers anyway so by tying up resources in order to make the small ships they do is a very reasonable thing to do. If not then every race will have very large navies and that is just not the intent or concept of BR.

[graham anderson]

The Vos and Rjurik weren&#39;t much in the way of naval powers anyway so by tying up resources in order to make the small ships they do is a very reasonable thing to do. If not then every race will have very large navies and that is just not the intent or concept of BR.


I think that the rjurik as seafarers and raiders have far to few ships and requiring a shipyard just makes it even more difficult. By making longships and other klinker built ships not require a shipyard a rjurik nation could build a ship when they want one something quite realistic. You could make it that you need certain knowledge to do it so it is only available for the rjurik and vos. The rjurik should have a lot of longships but a fleet of longships are not a match for a fleet of galleys or caravels.

[Green Knight]

Could someone pleas tell me why you need a "Shipyard" to build ships?

This sounds pretty strange - you don&#39;t need Forges to make weapons and armor, nor do you need Horse Pens to recruit cavalry...

Would it not be sufficient with a province level requirement? Provinces 4+ are considered ports and should have the ability to build ships&#33; Perhaps a province 7+ would be needed for the big ones, like galleons and zebecs, but for the rest?

B

[Angelbialaska]

I personally feel that shipyards and ports should be free too, automatically gained when you reach a level 4 province. It would relieve some of the harder hit provinces of their money trouble.

Maybe have ports being something that can be constructed in lower level provinces, and pay upkeep there, but when you reach a level 4, the shipyard and port can cover its own costs?

[Green Knight]

Originally posted by Angelbialaska@Jan 30 2005, 05:09 PM
Maybe have ports being something that can be constructed in lower level provinces, and pay upkeep there, but when you reach a level 4, the shipyard and port can cover its own costs?
That is exactly how I do it, and it works well enough&#33; Let&#39;s try to keep the number of structures needed to do stuff at a minimum - it reminds me too much of computer games I&#39;ve played in the past.

B

[graham anderson]

Larger ships galleons in particular needed shipyards due to their size and the difficultys of constructing them. Longships and other klinker built ships didn&#39;t require a shipyard. An example being somtimes to make a galleon they would dam up part of a river dry it out and built the galleon in a large frame then when the ship was ready they would break the dam letting in the water to float the ship which is no small task and the ship yards in britain were large as you needed a wide veriaty of craftsmen. On the other hand my neighbour in shetland makes klinker built boats and he does it on his own it doesn&#39;t take very long and he doesn&#39;t need any other workers to help him. This is partly a matter of scale but also of the techniques used in the construction.

There were few places that could make a galleon in britain. So I can see a place for a shipyard for making larger ships and non klinker built ships. I dont mind the port either with it being more than a bit of fishing and a few trade ships and more of a trade hub or militery base. The ports should be covered by taxes on the trade routes it generates.

[irdeggman]

From Rjurik Highlands:
Total navies: 1 Knarr, 5 Longships

Halskapa
1 Knarr, 1 Longship

Rjuvik
1 Longship

Svinik
1 Longship

Hogunmark
1 Longship

Hjolvar
1 Longship

Trade Routes:
Skapa Hjarring and Seasedge (sea trade route)
Skapa Hjarring and Anuire (sea trade route)
Yvarre and Nolien (sea trade route)
Leivika to Southern Anuire* (sea trade route)
Djaalfund and the Brecht Lands* (sea trade route)
Hjolvar* and Kvigmarheim (sea trade route)
*Specific location not listed in Rjurik Highlands

No documented land trade routes.

From Tribes of the Heartless Wastes:
Total Navies: 5 Drakkars, 7 Longships, 1 Zebec

Melyy
1 Longship

Yeninskiy
3 Drakkars, 1 Zebec, 2 Longships

Velenoye
2 Drakkar, 3 Longships

Zoloskaya
1 Drakkar, 1 Longship

No documented trade routes (land or sea)


So pretty much in the 2nd ed material neither the Rjurik nor the Vos were much in the way of sea powers – and the Vos’ acquisition of the Zebec was pretty obviously from raiding and piracy. Now allowing “free” ships just sort of bypasses the power structure of the 2nd ed material. Heck looking over the maps the level 4 coastal provinces in Rjurik were mostly plains and mtns (not many trees there) while the Vos had other issues.


Things I see changing or conceptually how they should be IMO:

We need to restore the 2nd ed rule that a coastal province can support as many sea trade routes as it can land trade routes. {Helps with places like Ilien that need the income.}

A coastal province with a rating of 4 (or more) can serve as a port but not a seaport. A port counts as a place where ships can embark and debark, troops can land, etc. But maintenance and extra income is non-existent in an undeveloped port. An undeveloped port can support a number of ships equal to its province rating in total cargo and troop capacity (add the two together) at a given time.

A seaport (or developed port that counts as an asset) and is necessary to have any sea trade routes. A developed port has a built up infrastructure designed to move cargo and ship it out. Developed ports also have sufficient infrastructure to provide for minor routine maintenance on ships. {IMO this developed port is significant, because it gives a target for raiding and destroying thus reducing the economy of a province. Historically how many times were ports burned to the ground and thus wrecking havoc on the country’s economy or to prevent their falling into the hands of the enemy? If this isn’t done then there is no incentive for raiding, pillaging and burning a port since it automatically springs back to life regardless of what happens.} A developed port can support a number of ships equal to 10 times its province rating in total cargo and troop capacity (add the two together) at a given time.

A shipyard is necessary to construct certain types of ships. Others can be constructed in a port (developed or undeveloped). Ships that have a missile rating, an attack rating (due to ramming), a combined cargo and troop capacity of 3GB or more requires a shipyard of the appropriate level to support construction. A shipyard is also required to make any improvements to a ship (for example the result of training, research, etc.) or repair more than 1 point of hull damage. A shipyard adds its rating to the province rating to determine the number of ships that can be supported at that port (see above). {I’d like to impose an additional level that specifies if it has a troop rating (i.e., bunks). But that would entail doing some other things like changing capacities for certain ships to a cargo rating or a bunk rating (but not both) – this is different than the 2nd ratings but makes more sense IMO. This is because if a ship can support a single bunk that means it can carry a unit of troops which is roughly the equivalent of 200 well equipped men, that is just no longer a simple ship, IMO. Cargo can very based on what is being carried but people take up so much room regardless. This might not be worth the effort of detail to do though and may simply just end up cluttering up the system.}

Increase construction capability of shipyards to less than 2.5 times the shipyard level. Although a case could be made for making this 3 times instead, specifically to address Zebecs.

Allow an option to build up a shipyard to exceed the province rating, albeit at an increased cost (and higher maintenance cost since it is similar to raising a province’s level above its normal level of self-support). Perhaps something along the lines of 50% increase in build and maintenance costs per level above the province level with a limit of 2 above.

[graham anderson]

So pretty much in the 2nd ed material neither the Rjurik nor the Vos were much in the way of sea powers – and the Vos’ acquisition of the Zebec was pretty obviously from raiding and piracy. Now allowing “free” ships just sort of bypasses the power structure of the 2nd ed material. Heck looking over the maps the level 4 coastal provinces in Rjurik were mostly plains and mtns (not many trees there) while the Vos had other issues.

The rjurik are mentioned as skilled seamen and raiders. I amn&#39;t advocating free ships but that klinker guilt ships do not require a shipyard. I would be happy with them requiring a port to construct instead.

[irdeggman]

Are you sure you are not talking about the Vos?


Rjurik Highlands pg 4 “The Rjuvan were a tough, semi-nomadic race who lived in the wild forests and plains of Aduira, honing their skills as herdsmen, hunters and warriors. Though proud of their ancient lands and reluctant to leave them, the threat of the Shadow forced them to migrate north away fro the growing danger.”

{About their ancestry before resettling in the Highlands}.

Pg 11 “Coastal-dwelling Rjurik live in small communities of no more than a hundred individuals. They make their living as fisherfolk, venturing out into the sea in knars or other small fishing vessels with nets to bring in great hauls of hake, cod, and salmon from the frigid waters of the tael Firth and the Sea of Storms. . .”

Pg 13 “ Rjurik are honorable warriors who favor honest conflict between individuals over massive, bloody warfare.” {Doesn’t sound like the definition of skilled raiders to me.}

I can’t find the quote I saw this morning but it basically said that the Highlands had the largest stretch of coast in Anuire but essentially had a non-existent naval force.


I tend to have problems with Rjurik building any large quantity of ships since it involves the felling of trees in order to do so. Being as close to nature and preservationists as they are it seems just not quite right for them to build shipyards and the like or to rely on deforestation in order to make a living. Another reason that, IMO, there are a relatively low number of guilds in the Highlands.

There is a big difference between being skilled fisherman and skilled seamen. Fisherman generally dealing with smaller vessels and fewer crew and likewise not dealing with large storms and the like.

[Thomas_Percy]

Originally posted by irdeggman@Jan 31 2005, 11:41 PM
I tend to have problems with Rjurik building any large quantity of ships since it involves the felling of trees in order to do so.* Being as close to nature and preservationists as they are it seems just not quite right for them to build shipyards and the like or to rely on deforestation in order to make a living.
To be a nature keeper doesn&#39;t mean to negate law of the nature.
If keepers of the nature can&#39;t cut trees, they can&#39;t hunting too. And the birds can&#39;t build a nests from the twigs & stalks of grass.
Imho to be a keeper of the nautre means to obey they laws, use it (even hunt) to live.

[irdeggman]

Originally posted by Thomas_Percy+Feb 1 2005, 06:03 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Thomas_Percy @ Feb 1 2005, 06:03 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-irdeggman@Jan 31 2005, 11:41 PM
I tend to have problems with Rjurik building any large quantity of ships since it involves the felling of trees in order to do so.* Being as close to nature and preservationists as they are it seems just not quite right for them to build shipyards and the like or to rely on deforestation in order to make a living.
To be a nature keeper doesn&#39;t mean to negate law of the nature.
If keepers of the nature can&#39;t cut trees, they can&#39;t hunting too. And the birds can&#39;t build a nests from the twigs & stalks of grass.
Imho to be a keeper of the nautre means to obey they laws, use it (even hunt) to live. [/b][/quote]
There is a difference between taking what you need to survive and exploiting the land.

Anything that borders on deforestation (used in this context I refer to wide spread, not clearing out some forests to make small areas for animal husbandry (raising) or small scale farming) is something that Erik would definitely frown on. The reason that the elves didn&#39;t immediately attack the Rjurvan is that they cared for the land, but the text goes on to describe that "they were humans though" and then came the war.

Clearing out sufficient forests to make a shipyard and construct ships has crossed the line, IMO. Clearing enough trees to make small fishing boats is another matter entirely.

Would a druid allow a group of creatures to clear out a large area of forest in order to make large buildings and structures (developed ports, shipyards, large scale ormass produced vessels)? Would a druid allow a clearing of some area of forests in order to either thin it out or to start some form of agriculture?

The intent is probably the key factor here. Since druids are the keepers of the law in the Highlands that is the real deciding factor in how things are perceived as a culture.

[ConjurerDragon]

irdeggman schrieb:



>This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.

> You can view the entire thread at:

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>

> irdeggman wrote:

> Are you sure you are not talking about the Vos?

>Rjurik Highlands pg 4 “The Rjuvan were a tough, semi-nomadic race who lived in the wild forests and plains of Aduira, honing their skills as herdsmen, hunters and warriors. Though proud of their ancient lands and reluctant to leave them, the threat of the Shadow forced them to migrate north away fro the growing danger.”

>{About their ancestry before resettling in the Highlands}.

>Pg 11 “Coastal-dwelling Rjurik live in small communities of no more than a hundred individuals. They make their living as fisherfolk, venturing out into the sea in knars or other small fishing vessels with nets to bring in great hauls of hake, cod, and salmon from the frigid waters of the tael Firth and the Sea of Storms. . .”

>Pg 13 “ Rjurik are honorable warriors who favor honest conflict between individuals over massive, bloody warfare.” {Doesn’t sound like the definition of skilled raiders to me.}

>I can’t find the quote I saw this morning but it basically said that the Highlands had the largest stretch of coast in Anuire but essentially had a non-existent naval force.

>I tend to have problems with Rjurik building any large quantity of ships since it involves the felling of trees in order to do so. Being as close to nature and preservationists as they are it seems just not quite right for them to build shipyards and the like or to rely on deforestation in order to make a living. Another reason that, IMO, there are a relatively low number of guilds in the Highlands.

>

There are a few hints that the Rjuven are good seafarers.

The 2E Atlas of Cerilia on the back gives a map where the Rjuven did not

cross the straits of Aerele on land, but crossed the Tael Firth, the Sea

of Storms when moving from Aduria - not a small task with a whole

population of women and children. The Vos however DID use the straits

just like the Andu and crossed only a very narrow body of water.



Like the Brecht and unlike the Anuireans the Rjurik actually have

Marines as a 2E warcard so they have a unit skilled in fighting onboard

a ship.



Why do you imply deforestation to build ships? They would of course not

completely chop down an entire wood (just as the small story in the

Rjurik Highlands book warns to do!) but sparingly chop down trees and

immediately plant new seedlings so that (unlike in Alamie) the forest

will not vanish but will regrow.



Guilds also need not live on deforestation - a guild represents anything

that makes money so they could gather wild strawberries, or the rare

herbs mentioned in the "King of the Giantdowns" book ;-)



Navigating the Sea of Storms without a sextant (which only the Brecht

have) is no easy task even for fisherman. It is not far from there to

our own Vikings, to Raiders (the whole country of Rjuvik is populated by

ex-searaiders).

bye

Michael

[Osprey]

I think the Rjurik regents having small standing fleets makes sense: if they are raiders, they don&#39;t need the kinds of fleets necessary for conquest, only for hit-and-run raids. 1-3 longships is big enough for a raiding fleet, and on par with early Viking raids in Earth&#39;s history. Making a ship here and there shouldn&#39;t lead to widescale deforestation; building a large invasion fleet capable of carrying an entire army is a different matter. Good reason why there aren&#39;t any large standing Rjurik fleets.

Historically, I believe there was some large-scale deforestation of Scandanavia in the later Viking era, because they went from small-scale raiding to large-scale conquest as the Vikings grew fat on their earlier successes. If we maintain a comparison between Rjurik and the early Vikings, though, things seem to correlate fairly well. The reality may be that the Druids&#39; power and the nature-reverence of Erik restricts the possible ambitions of Rjurik jarls and kings in expanding their raids to full-scale invasion.

As far as shipyards go, I think it&#39;s important to maintain an across-the-board rule for ship-building and shipyard requirements. As longships are pretty cheap, the shipyard requirements will be quite low, and mainly represent the most basic of facilities: skilled labor and necessary raw materials, and the additional costs of gaining these resources with minimal ecological impact. Seems pretty reasonable IMO.

Osprey

[irdeggman]

The Rjurik are more closely based on the Celts than the Scandavians and Norse. hence the importance of bards and druids to their culture.

There is nothing written to imply that the Rjurik are in fact raiders, while the Vos on the contrary thrive on taking what they want.

Combine this fact (and the text I have cited - nothing implied here and definitely not based on art work) with the absolute lack of any naval forces in the Highlands it is pretty obvious they are not a naval force in any way shape or form.

The Rjurik have the absolute smallest navy of any land in Anuire and that is by far. The next closest are the Vos and they ahve more than double the Rjurik fleet.

Again being good fishermen doesn&#39;t make them good naval miltary. I am at a loss to explain the marine unit, but there are a number of other inconsistencies in the 2nd ed products and that is a single error, regardless as to how many crdss were printed.

[The incredible, edible Phil]

It might be an issue of miscommunication between the designers or simply the editor was sloppy.

[ConjurerDragon]

"irdeggman" <brnetboard@BIRTHRIGHT.NET> schrieb:

> This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.

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>

> irdeggman wrote:

> The Rjurik are more closely based on the Celts than the Scandavians and Norse. hence the importance of bards and druids to their culture.

> There is nothing written to imply that the Rjurik are in fact raiders, while the Vos on the contrary thrive on taking what they want.





Except again for example the 2E warcard with "Rjuvik Raiders" after I already mentioned the Rjurik Marines warcard.

Or the passage on p. 25 of the "Rjurik Highlands" about the jarldom of Rjuvik "...Fulgar the Bold roamed the land, preying on merchants and travelers, and wandering the oceans, leading a small fleet of sea reavers in raids on mercantile shipping and coastal villages in Rjurik and Anuirean Kingdoms..." and mentions later "...items gained through illegal raids on other kingdoms..."



Then in the Players Secrets of Stjordvik (p. 8) who mention raids by Rjuvik both over land and boarded on their longships for attacks on Hollenvik. The Jarl of Yvarre once raided with 6 Longships and was defeated by Stjordvik defences aided by an Anuirean merchantman armed with ballistae.



And even "aviking" is mentioned in that Fulgar (of Rjuvik) officially forbids the raiding (and is not really successfull doing so) to raise his status and allow him to establish trade. So I would say that, as has been mentioned more than once, the Rjurik as any other human nation, are not based on one culture alone, neither Celt nor Vikings, but are an amalgam who might use elements of both cultures and that raiding exists.

bye

Michael

[Osprey]

The Rjurik are more closely based on the Celts than the Scandavians and Norse. hence the importance of bards and druids to their culture

Except Rich Baker has explicitly said that the Rjurik are most strongly based on the Norse, as their nomenclature (personal & place names, lords called jarls, etc.) also suggests.

Druids and nature reverence seem to be primarily Celtic in flavor, I agree there.
Bards are Skalds in Rjurik, a specifically Norse name and flavor (skald is Old Norse name for poets in the Viking era). The more typical Bards, which ARE strongly Celtic-based, are far more typical in Anuire than Rjurik.

I don&#39;t mean to be picky here, just wanted to put in a plug for how Nordic the Rjurik have always seemed to me. I still think the Rjurik as sometime-raiders makes a lot of sense, and honestly don&#39;t see any great conflict between this fact and the tiny size of Rjurik navies.

[irdeggman]

Sorry to disagree while the names are closer to Norse the culture is very much closer to that of the Celts.

In fact the 2nd ed AD&D book "Celts - Campaign Sourcebook" by Graeme Davis published in 1992 (BR setting was published in 1995) absolutely has the Celtic culture almost identical to that of the Rjurik. Especially the role of druids and bards. In fact the book (a green cover one) had Character Gifts which were almost exactly copied in BR and translated into Special Dooms. Heck the Celtics Campaign Sourcebook had a tremendous influence on Cerilian elves also. Find a copy of the book and you will see what I&#39;m talking about as far as the TSR stand on this issue. I really think Rich was talking about names and such since things were deliberately combined in order to make them unique for BR.

The biggest cultural difference between the Rjurik and Celts, which is closer to the Norse, is the role of women. The Rjurik "prefer" their women to tend to the young and stay at home. The Celtic women were the equal of the men and held similar status in their culture.

Another good RPG oriented source book is the Celtic Age by Avalanche press. Again very strong similarities can be gleened for the Rjurik.

The Norse were adventurers and discoverers, although they didn&#39;t keep good records (or much of any for that matter). The Rjurik are home and hearth. Defend the clan first, fight second, but never back down from a battle if necessary.

The only thing Norse about Rjurik bards is the name. Traditional D&D bards are not based very much on the Celtic ones. Celtic bards were the keepers of the history and as such were protected in society they were honor bound to be neutral in matters and deliver messages in an exact manner - the Celts were an oral reliance society which is why we don&#39;t have near as much information about them as we should and most of that is based on misconceptions. (Awful similar to the Rjurik bards). Again check out the Celtic Campaign Sourcebook for the "official" 2nd ed opinon of Celtic bards in D&D.

[irdeggman]

Originally posted by Osprey@Feb 1 2005, 04:59 PM


I don&#39;t mean to be picky here, just wanted to put in a plug for how Nordic the Rjurik have always seemed to me. I still think the Rjurik as sometime-raiders makes a lot of sense, and honestly don&#39;t see any great conflict between this fact and the tiny size of Rjurik navies.
Then justify this with the honorable warrior stance of the Rjuirik. Their preference for settling things in the open one-on-one. I&#39;ve already provided the text quotes to back this one up.

Being raiders just seems too cowardly in this respect to me. A raider doesn&#39;t seem very honorable to me, it is like being a pirate (OK it is pretty much exactly like being a pirate except a raider can apply to the land as well as to the sea).

[Osprey]

Then justify this with the honorable warrior stance of the Rjuirik. Their preference for settling things in the open one-on-one. I&#39;ve already provided the text quotes to back this one up.

OK...I don&#39;t have a whole lot to go on at the moment, being at my parents&#39; house in PA &#39;till Thursday (and without most of my BR stuff). But I did at least find that Rich Baker quote, it&#39;s from the e-interview that Arjan [re]posted in the Articles a few weeks ago. Here&#39;s the quote, where he&#39;s describing the influences for each of the human cultures:


The Rjurik have a sort of strange Viking-highland Scot-native American mix, with a strong emphasis on the Viking part. Some of the more densely settled and long-established kingdoms (Halskapa, for instance) bear a strong resemblance to Denmark of the 12th to 13th century. I borrowed place-names from Norway, Sweden, and Finland for the Rjurik, changing a letter here and a syllable there to give them new twists.

Beyond that, I&#39;m not claiming to be a Rjurik afficionado, partly just going with my gut. The naming may bery well influence this gut-reaction. I put a lot of stock in names, they are powerful symbols that are meant to identify and symbolize broader concepts. Why would an author choose mainly Norse names to symbolize a mainly Celtic culture? Sorry to say this [it borders on sacrilege, I know], but that&#39;s either very poor writing, or its an intentional move on the author&#39;s part. And if intentional, then I feel justified in believing what Baker says: there&#39;s a strong emphasis on the Viking part.

And really, who can imagine culture resembling Vikings yet being terrible seafarers and not raiding on longships?

I seem to remember there were other writings discussing Rjurik longships and their ideal qualities as raiding ships, but without my BR materials I&#39;m afraid I can&#39;t quote it book, chapter, and verse. Maybe some other BR theologian on the forums can help out with this (tho Micheal&#39;s already done a fair job of providing some direct evidence of "Rjurik as raiders").

Finally, there is this: the Rjurik are fairly well-renowned for their skill as warriors, and especially rangers. Aren&#39;t rangers ideally suited to the raiders&#39; style of fighting? Hit and run tactics, ambushes, etc.? It seems that these tactics were employed extensively by the Rjurik when defending their homelands from Roele&#39;s invading armies.

My point here is that the Rjurik may be honorable, but their sense of honor might have some very different rules of what is fair and honorable than, say, Anuireans and Haelynites do. While the Anuirean/Haelynite code of honor is very much one based on the French romantic code of chivalry, the Rjurik sense of honor should be one modeled off of its own distinct culture and ethics. If we take the Celtic and/or Norse version of honor, we might get a few maxims like this:

Your word is your bond. To spit and shake on an agreement is the most binding of agreements. Worth far more than anything written on a piece of parchment.

While it may be honorable to resolve a dispute with a face-to-face duel, war is an entirely different matter. In war - to the victor go the spoils (and likely a decent offering to the gods in thanks, too). There is much more to war than to a single duel - cunning, surprise, using the land to your advantage, etc, etc.

Everyone has a place within society, but hard work and dedication to one&#39;s work can lend any man prosperity and success.


Those are a few examples re. honor that I imagine might be pretty true for a Rjurik native.

Even if we believe the Rjurik have more of a Celtic base than Norse, let me tell you: the history of Celtic raiders goes back time out of mind. Ever read a history of Scotland? The number of raids into England, and between clans, staggers the mind. Same goes for Ireland, and for Celtic Britain. The inter-tribal fighting and backstabbing was one of the reasons the Romans had such an easy time subjugating the Celts all over Europe (tho I&#39;m sad this was the case, it&#39;s undeniably true). Only the Picts in northern Scotland were able to escape Roman domination, but eventually the Irish, Anglians, and Northumbrians overwhelmed them completely.

The Vikings weren&#39;t unique in their sea-raiding, they just excelled at it, and happened to be exploding onto the naval scene at a time when Europe was especially ripe for the plucking (late Dark Ages). Most Viking raider sagas that I have read do indeed make them seem to be little more than sheer, bloody bullies and pirates who targeted the richest and easiest prey. They were wolves among sheep. Is that a sufficiently naturalistic model to suit the Rjurik? Predator and prey, thinning out the herds of overpopulated Anuire, weeding out the weak and the sick? No reason a follower of Erik, and an honorable man of Rjurik, couldn&#39;t imagine himself in these terms. You just have to discard chivalrous terms of honor for a more naturalistic set.

Osprey

[The incredible, edible Phil]

There is also the matter that honour applies only against honourable foes, i.e. the rjurik might not raid other rjurik but Anuireans and brecht might be fair game.

[irdeggman]

All right it is definitely a time for a pause here.

I strongly suggest that eveyone involved go back and reread The Rjuirk Highlands and see what it actually says about the Rjurvan lifestyle. We seem to be making stances based on preconceived opinions and not the actual text in question.

The Rjurik Highlands is a higher order document than is the Atlas - that means, IMO, that it supecedes anything written in a lower order document for which there is a conflict. So keeping that in mind the Rjurik Highland should be the source for 2nd ed BR descriptions of the Rjurik.

[geeman]

The Rjurik are clearly based on a kind of Norse/Viking culture, but if one

goes through the published materials they are depicted as being war-like

not in the offensive, expansionistic way of the reaver period of such

peoples, but in defense of invasion of their homelands from various sources

like Anuirean empire, orog raiders and a few awnsheghlien.



Now, I know that might strike some folks as a little odd. Removing Viking

raiders from the culture that is often definitive of Vikings? It is a

little odd. However, if you consider that Anuireans are in many ways

crusaders without Christianity, the Khinasi are African/Arabs without

Islam, Cerilian elves are immortal and halflings have an intimate

relationship with the campaign`s nether world then portraying the Rjurik as

warriors who focus upon self-defense rather than raiding makes a little

more sense. The portrayal of the Rjurik is not meant to be a 1:1

recreation of the historical cultures upon which they are based. It`s a

fantasy fictionalized version.



Having said that, there are a few rationalizations that one could come up

with for how/why the Rjurik would have developed as they did as opposed to

their real world amalgams. For instance, population size among the Rjurik

never reached the kind of size that is necessary to foster an expansionist

movement. (The Vikings for all that the gory details regarding raids is

emphasized really were more of a cultural/population expansion then just a

military one.) Also the Rjurik are set upon by more internal foes than

were their historical counterparts in the form of awnsheghlien and other

hostile races. Such a condition does not for an expansion into nearby

realms make.



Lastly, the cultural basis of the Rjurik is strongly on a nomadic "live in

harmony with nature" fantasy native American ideal. (Personally, I don`t

think that idea ever really existed as much more than a propaganda and

post-colonial reinterpretation, but that`s no reason not to employ it in a

fantasy campaign setting.) That emphasis is definitively not expansionist

and nearly pacifistic in its portray, so culturally it would oppose the

kind of raiding party development that the Viking reaver period

represented--which was mostly about the acquisition of wealth. So on the

whole this is one of those basic differences between the real culture(s)

and the fantasy portrayal of them that is so common in gaming and, I`d

suggest, perhaps even more definitive of BR than other settings.



Now, that`s not to say, of course, that there would be absolutely no Rjurik

raiders of the Viking type, nor that their ability to build ships of their

own culture should somehow be dependant upon having massive

shipyards. Rjurik culture is divided and it is sensible that amongst the

more "developed" and populated regions of the Highlands that a few bands of

raiders might spring up. There is also the general expansion of the Rjurik

by sea into Thaele which, of course, takes some serious shipbuilding to

accomplish.



Gary

[The incredible, edible Phil]

Something else to chew on is that while the kingdoms themselves might not sponsor viking, there might be some jarls of clans that do so and act independantly of the regent.

[graham anderson]

ok things about the rjurik and ships.

page 11 rjurik highlands. They make their living venturing out to sea in knarr&#39;s.

page 12 . the urban rjurik are mentioned as having sailors as one of their main proffesions.

As mentioned before fulgar the bold and the rjuvik are raiders.

frequent mention of sailors and fishermen.

There are a few dark tribes mantioned as raiders.

page 54 . more raiders mentioned this time nilsvaar who may be the black fiend.
.
page 55. dozens of clincker built knarrs set sail. (this is for the small nation of kvigmar)

page 21 havens of the great bay. kvigmar and hjolvar have a history of invading brechtur.


page 3 the players secrets of tailinie. mentions raids by the rjurik.

I dont have time to look threw everything but I am sure there is a bit more than this.


I strongly suggest that eveyone involved go back and reread The Rjuirk Highlands and see what it actually says about the Rjurvan lifestyle. We seem to be making stances based on preconceived opinions and not the actual text in question.

The book also mentions that the urban rjurik have moved away from the rjurik lifestyle maybe the raiders come from them and not the nomads

[irdeggman]

When I suggested rereading the Rjurik Highlands I meant for information. That is to see what it is saying and not just to look for specific bits and pieces that could be threaded together to make a stance. I know that I could go through and find aapproximately twice as many to back up my claims, but I want to reread it so that I can get the feel for what the people are "supposed" to be like and not trying to back up any of my preconceptions.

One thing I never said was that they weren&#39;t fishermen. I have consistently stated (and still maintain) that there is a difference between a fishermen and a military sailor. This, IMO, the reason why there are so few ships in the Rjurvan navy. I believe that they (TSR) were using the same term to mean two different things. What I mean is when they are referring to fishing ships as Knaars (and the like) they are not the same type of Knarrs that are listed as part of the navy. These might be similar styled ships but on a smaller scale and thus don&#39;t ahve an influence in the amount of external trade being done or the ability to move troops by sea.


page 55. dozens of clinker built knarrs set sail. (this is for the small nation of kvigmar)

Full quote "During the fishing season, dozens of clinker-built knarr and other small vessels set sail from the city and return home with their nets overflowing with fish, the staple food of Kvigmar." There is no navy listed, nor any sea trade routes. The text seems to support my opinion on the dual use of the term knarr, one as a trade/military vessel and one as small fishing ship (roughly personal size - no effect on domain level of play).

pg 79 description of Rjurik Mariners "These tough, resourceful Rjurik serve as crew aboard Rjurik ships during fishing season. In other times, they often maintain membership in the regent&#39;s standing armies."

Now if one combines this with the optional rule (on the same page) for Rjurik musters ". . . .The Rjurik typically train all citizens in combat and warfare from an early age, and are considerably more potent than the levies of other lands." A case can be made that the reason these (mariners) exist is that they are conscripted fishermen.

The Brecht also have units of marines but they have quite a different description to them, which reflects their society.


So much for that, now for me to reread the Highlands tonight to get a more complete vision of what they were intended to be, or at least how the writing captured the vision.

[graham anderson]

Full quote "During the fishing season, dozens of clinker-built knarr and other small vessels set sail from the city and return home with their nets overflowing with fish, the staple food of Kvigmar." There is no navy listed, nor any sea trade routes. The text seems to support my opinion on the dual use of the term knarr, one as a trade/military vessel and one as small fishing ship (roughly personal size - no effect on domain level of play).

We just dont see things the same way. I think there is lots of items that show the rjurik as skilled seamen and raiders. Kvigmar has two trade routes so you are wrong there one to hjolvar and one to danigau. I dont think the text supports what you say at all they are talked about , described and named the same as the Knarr ships regents can get.

Now most ships are not going to be owned by regents but by traders and fishermen. In anuire they can buy their ships from the shipyards in the rjurik highlands I would say they build their own. I think that you have to have clincker built ships being different from others for the more primitive cultures to get ships at all.

I also think that not all rjurik are raiders or skilled seamen however I think there is ample proof that a number of them are.



That is to see what it is saying and not just to look for specific bits and pieces that could be threaded together to make a stance. I know that I could go through and find aapproximately twice as many to back up my claims

What quotes are you going to find that disproove the other points, not all the rjurik are the same.

I still say that clincker built ships should not require a shipyard and the points I brought up help to reinforce that.

[Athos69]

Something else that needs to be kept in mind is that one does not need to have a ship to be a &#39;raider&#39; Ships can&#39;t be used on a cattle raid in the highlands, nor are they very effective when striking at a merchant convoy travelling by road (unless it is on the coast).

[irdeggman]

Originally posted by graham anderson@Feb 3 2005, 01:15 PM

We just dont see things the same way. I think there is lots of items that show the rjurik as skilled seamen and raiders. Kvigmar has two trade routes so you are wrong there one to hjolvar and one to danigau. I dont think the text supports what you say at all they are talked about , described and named the same as the Knarr ships regents can get.

Now most ships are not going to be owned by regents but by traders and fishermen. In anuire they can buy their ships from the shipyards in the rjurik highlands I would say they build their own. I think that you have to have clincker built ships being different from others for the more primitive cultures to get ships at all.

Yup I missed those 2 trade routes - I was looking at an electronic copy (hard to read).

But here is something else to look at Kvigmar has a sea trade route from Kvigmareim to Hjolvar (Kopingdal).

(All of this is using the 2nd ed rules)

Both are level 4 provinces, both have all the guilds owned by the province regents. So that would mean that in this case the province regent must own the ships in question that are needed to run the sea trade route. In order to gain the benefit from a sea trade route enough ships to carry GB worth of cargo must be available. A knarr can carry 2 GB of cargo and 1 unit of troops, a longship can carry 1 GB of goods and 1 unit of troops. Holvar has a "fleet" of 1 longship. Insufficient to handle the trade route in question. The most efficient method would be to have 2 Knarrs dedicated to this purpose which would generate 4 GB worth of income from the trade route - but there are none listed in either country&#39;s navy. Maintenance on the ships would be 1 GB (maintenance is based on total troop capacity of the navy) which leaves a net income of 3 GB split among the regents. If longships are used it would require 4 and the maintenance for the ships would be 2 GB dropping any profit to 2 GB total.

If one takes the quote about dozens of knarr going out for fishing trips literally then the domain maintenance (remember the regent owns all of the guilds) would be totally unreal. It would be roughly 1 GB for every 3 ships (so for 24 ships it would be 8 GB). So in any logical sense here my opinion on TSR using the term knarr to mean more than one thing (one being small fishing boats that have no effect on the domain and the other the technical knarr (which can transport troops and goods)) - otherwise domain maintenance would never work. IMO small fishing ships require no real facilities.

Note that traders and fishermen (who are not regents) just can&#39;t possibly have the income necessary to purchase a ship like a knarr. It costs 6 GB which is roughly 12000 gp and 1 GB (2000 gp) per season for maintenance. What is the annual income of a fisherman? Using the ply trade rules from the BRRB, a fisher could make 5d6 gp per domain action (i.e., month). Nope, just doesn&#39;t look a fisherman could ever possibly afford a knarr (as listed in the Ships of Cerilia).

Any other logic to be applied here? I could be missing something. I was trying to calculate how large a longship and/or knarr had to be in order to support the number listed. Both can have carry 1 unit of troops and 1 (or 2) GB worth of cargo. Let&#39;s see if a single person takes up roughly 5 cu ft of space and each unit of troops is roughly 200 people then that would be 1000 cu ft of space for troops. Assuming that these are more open and that the troops are not fullly below deck (i.e., needed to row, etc.) then roughly 3/4 of that volume would be for them below the lip of the ship so 750 cu ft for people, not counting crew. Crew is specifically mentioned as coming with a ship and not being the troops carried. There is also the space necessary to carry the cargo. This is purely subjective but the Rjurik goods should be pretty bulky, since they are comprised mostly of lumber, food stuffs (especially fish), furs and such - all of which are kind of bulky.

Let&#39;s put the troops in rows with 6 in each and a small walk path between the two sets of 3. That puts the width at roughly 25 ft, and at least 33 rows and about 3-4 ft for each row (which comes to approx 132 ft). This still doesn&#39;t account for any room for cargo. Seems to be growing from a small ship with every step of this process. A typical fishing ship had a crew of less than a 12 and was probably less than 30 ft in length with most of the space being devoted to storing nets (when not on the arms) and fish.

[The Jew]

I have a vague feelign that both sides are right. That these books are full of inconsistencies and errors. That one person wrote one passage with one set of assumptions, while another writer wrote another with a different set of assumptions. Most times I understand the need to stick with the precedent. But if their is mass confusion and disagreement over an issue this is a good time to rewrite it. Invariably the Atlas with be adding and changing material.

So heres a different question. What do people think would make a more interesting game world and culture. Rrujik with or without raiding parties?

[Danip]

Scratching my head....
Have realism and the BR naval system ever really worked well together? The size and cost of navies in 2e and 3e seems to be built to mesh with the abstract unit system. With a BR unit ~200 people, the fact that even small Earth caravel/cog/galleon ships can cram in alot of people, and most BR realms having fewer than 20 land units, then the inescapable game balancing mechanic is that BR realm navies are small.
Some nation&#39;s guilders could be responsible for doubling the number of ships in Cerelia, but often the ships of the guilder and the realm are the same, just under leasing/borrowing/emergency agreements. Cerelia just doesnt have many ship units available.

This doesnt mesh well with our ideas/analogies of historical Earth navies. A few historical examples will suffice; the vikings laid seige to the fortified bridges of Paris for ten months with 700+ viking ships(knarrs, drakkars, etc), the Duke of Normandy called up hundreds of his vassals ships to become the King of England, any historical painting you have seen of an old port bristling with masts, and etc.

This also does not mesh well with our poetic and heroic storytelling as DMs and PCs. If the great Brecht navy of Muden is less than ten sizable ship units, then who the hell are all those random pirates that ocean going PCs always seem to run into?&#33; If you play with the strict definition that a full guild level represents 100% of all trade and economic activity (IMO too strict in Brechtur), then all oceangoing ships are accounted for. The seas of Cerelia are almost deserted of ships. Your chances of meeting another vessel, much less a nasty pirate, are much smaller than on Earth&#39;s seas of old (which were not that dense). Indeed almost no navy in Cerelia has enough ships to blockade a single port, much less patrol their entire coast.

However, the cost and capabilities of the BR ship units are well matched with the domain system and army sizes and costs. Not perfect as this discussion has shown, but within a factor of ten for sure.

The unimpressive navies of Cerelia has created a houserule in my sea-going heavy campaign.
Please ignore the DM waving his hands.... ;)
If the BR ship unit is well balanced, why not just say that a BR "ship" actually represents several ships of that class? [Or a small fleet with ships of the named class as the main force?] While a full unit of 200 cavalry and horses might fit on a certain historical ship, the domain system doesnt mention logistics. The exact number of historical cogs and caravels needed to carry X units cant be calculated with the domain system. The GB capacity of ships is also a vague abstraction. 1GB of pepper (~2000lbs) could fit in a largeish rowboat. There is room for interpetation.

We havent exactly worked out what the ship unit to ship multiplier is so our DMs hands arnt tied. 2 or 3 at least...

A ship multiplier factor does introduce some problems:
Each individual ship GB cost does go down. If a non-regent PCs want a ship, what is the cost in gp? A little more DM hand waving, and the fact that a GB is just an abtract amount of goods and services surplus over a larger tax base, is needed to keep a single ship cost up in gp.

But coupled with the idea that a (6) guild in a (6) province, doesnt actually own and run every ship, shop, or shipper in a port town, you can once again people the seas of Cerelia with a more flavorful number of ships. We did this so that adventure level/individual person description and realism did not suffer because of the domain naval system. When a 7th level party captures or sinks a caravel, should the enemy realm lose 1/4 of their navy?[possible...fireball rules&#33;]

I bring this up no so much to recommend a wholesale change of the domain naval system, just to point out that perhaps too much realism and accounting have entered this conversation about changing what is at heart an abstract and unrealistic system.

If anyone has side comments about our ship multiplier or their campaign&#39;s solution to the paltry number of individual ships available for adventures, they are welcome too.

[irdeggman]

Danip,

That was actually something else I was going to post. Specifically in relation to the longships. That is a single naval longship actually represented a large number of much sammer vessels that had a collective value equal to that of the unit. Makes it much easier to explain how the Vos could do so much piracy with so few resources available - and how they gained a Zebec from the Khinasi. Now this does pose a problem when trying to determine domain maintenance What it would essentially do is insert a "loop hole" that allows players to find a way to bypass havingmainetence for ships. "What do you mean maintence? I&#39;m moving my cargo with the existing fishing fleet, they are so small that they have no maintenance involved."

Looking over the Highlands, again. Yes it is full of inconsitencies. I think that (I&#39;ll have to check again) that most references to raiders are in the past tence. This could be used to insert some sort of consitency since the last reference to wars and overt fighting between tribes (in the text early on that describes teh race as a whole (pg 7-9)) ties these events in to the fall of the Empire. That is after the fall the Rjurik became more diplomatic and less willling to engage in wholesale wars, unless invaded. Reference to raiders could be attributed to legends or individuals outside of society. Saying that the Rjurik are not raiders nor pirates is a statement at the broadest level - that is the race as a whole, it is not supposed to be interpreted as no Rjuirik is a raider or pirate. There are always individuals who don&#39;t follow the "rules of society". And just as there are Khinasi wizards who haven&#39;t taken the "oaths" the Rjuirk raiders and pirates could just as easily be considered outcasts and criminals by the remaining members of society (especially the druids {aka the keepers of the law, the Rjurik druids owe their loyalty first to the people even before Erik}).

[graham anderson]

right I think that most ships are not under the control of regents but independent traders and fishermen. That being said where do they get their ships in the rjurik highlands they are not going to be able to buy them from the few shipyards.

I will try and bring us back to the point I was making before that clicker built ship should not require a shipyard.

[ConjurerDragon]

irdeggman schrieb:



>This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.

> You can view the entire thread at:

> http://www.birthright.net/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=36&t=2961

>

> irdeggman wrote:

>...

>Looking over the Highlands, again. Yes it is full of inconsitencies. I think that (I`ll have to check again) that most references to raiders are in the past tence. This could be used to insert some sort of consitency since the last reference to wars and overt fighting between tribes (in the text early on that describes teh race as a whole (pg 7-9)) ties these events in to the fall of the Empire. That is after the fall the Rjurik became more diplomatic and less willling to engage in wholesale wars, unless invaded. Reference to raiders could be attributed to legends or individuals outside of society. Saying that the Rjurik are not raiders nor pirates is a statement at the broadest level - that is the race as a whole, it is not supposed to be interpreted as no Rjuirik is a raider or pirate. There are always individuals who don`t follow the "rules of society". And just as there are Khinasi wizards who haven`t taken the "oaths" the Rjuirk raiders and pirates could just as e

> asily be considered outcasts and criminals by the remaining members of society (especially the druids {aka the keepers of the law, the Rjurik druids owe their loyalty first to the people even before Erik}).

>

Khinasi Wizards who not take the oaths are extremely rare individuals.

Rjurik Raiders must be more numerous, be it because they exist in

numbers large enough to form an army unit, or simply to be able to

navigate ships.



The Sons of Hjalsone (mentioned in the PS of Stjordvik) could for

example use raiding to finance their secret war against the Anuirean

rule in Dhoesone.



Druids might see Raiders as outcasts who prey on other Rjurik - however

Raiders who raid the (richer) Anuirean coastline not only fight against

an ancient enemy, but also against a whole culture who abuses and

destroys the land beyond anything that would be acceptable to the

Druids, e.g. the deforestation of Alamie as mentioned in the PS of Talinie.



And don´t forget the raider lord who rules as Jarl of Hjorig in Brechtür.

bye

Michael

[irdeggman]

Originally posted by graham anderson@Feb 4 2005, 10:00 AM
right I think that most ships are not under the control of regents but independent traders and fishermen. That being said where do they get their ships in the rjurik highlands they are not going to be able to buy them from the few shipyards.


How are independent fishermen going to afford the cost of a knarr?

Using the ply trade rules from the BRCS-playtest (basically a simplified version of the profession skill check with modifiers for province level – a 1st level expert fisherman with 4 ranks in profession (fisher) could make 8 gp in a month (assuming a level 4 province –that is 24 gp in a season (3 months). The cost of a knarr (from the BRCS-playtest) is 6 GB (roughly 12,000 gp (2,000 gp/GB)). Maintenance costs for a ship are Knarr (3000 gp per year active, or 750 gp per season) when active. Why have a fishing vessel if it is not active?

So basically there is no way a commoner fisherman can own and operate a “standard” knarr as a fishing vessel. Again it backs up by opinion on there being 2 different types of knarrs, the standard/domain level knarr and the smaller personal level one. Both referred to as the same thing.

It is important to remember that the domain level of play is drastically higher level then the personal one. Which is why income and expenses are measure in GB vice gp. A non-regent just doesn’t generate income in the same range as does a regent. If you try to treat the two as the same it will lead to the confusion of level of play that has started this entire discussion, IMO.

A fisherman has small (relatively) dockside stand (or even a small store) that he sells his catch. A regent has sponsored (and gets a cut of profit from) many waterfront stand or shops and hence is profit (income and expenses) are measured in a larger scale. Only regents generate income routinely on the GB scale.

[ConjurerDragon]

"irdeggman" <brnetboard@BIRTHRIGHT.NET> schrieb:

> This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.

> You can view the entire thread at:

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>

> irdeggman wrote:

> QUOTE (graham anderson @ Feb 4 2005, 10:00 AM) right I think that most ships are not under the control of regents but independent traders and fishermen. That being said where do they get their ships in the rjurik highlands they are not going to be able to buy them from the few shipyards.

> -----------------------------

> How are independent fishermen going to afford the cost of a knarr?

> Using the ply trade rules from the BRCS-playtest (basically a simplified version of the profession skill check with modifiers for province level – a 1st level expert fisherman with 4 ranks in profession (fisher) could make 8 gp in a month (assuming a level 4 province –that is 24 gp in a season (3 months). The cost of a knarr (from the BRCS-playtest) is 6 GB (roughly 12,000 gp (2,000 gp/GB)). Maintenance costs for a ship are Knarr (3000 gp per year active, or 750 gp per season) when active. Why have a fishing vessel if it is not active?

>

> So basically there is no way a commoner fisherman can own and operate a “standard” knarr as a fishing vessel. Again it backs up by opinion on there being 2 different types of knarrs, the standard/domain level knarr and the smaller personal level one. Both referred to as the same thing.

>

> It is important to remember that the domain level of play is drastically higher level then the personal one. Which is why income and expenses are measure in GB vice gp. A non-regent just doesn’t generate income in the same range as does a regent. If you try to treat the two as the same it will lead to the confusion of level of play that has started this entire discussion, IMO.

>

> A fisherman has small (relatively) dockside stand (or even a small store) that he sells his catch. A regent has sponsored (and gets a cut of profit from) many waterfront stand or shops and hence is profit (income and expenses) are measured in a larger scale. Only regents generate income routinely on the GB scale.



The question would be would it just be ONE fisherman plying his trade?

A knarr is a boat which has not only sails but also oars and needs several hands to maneuver. So there are more than just one man. Are these all "fisherman" who would all ply their trade and so lead to a multiple of your calculation for one fisherman?

Or do you want to state that only ONE Fisherman could ply trade with a knarr, e.g. only the CAPTAIN of a knarr is the NPC with Profession (Fisher)?



IMO I see a knarr being operated by several fisherman working as crew and sharing the catchs profits, resulting in multiples of ply trade.

bye

Michael

[irdeggman]

Originally posted by ConjurerDragon@Feb 5 2005, 03:40 PM
The question would be would it just be ONE fisherman plying his trade?

A knarr is a boat which has not only sails but also oars and needs several hands to maneuver. So there are more than just one man. Are these all "fisherman" who would all ply their trade and so lead to a multiple of your calculation for one fisherman?

Or do you want to state that only ONE Fisherman could ply trade with a knarr, e.g. only the CAPTAIN of a knarr is the NPC with Profession (Fisher)?



IMO I see a knarr being operated by several fisherman working as crew and sharing the catchs profits, resulting in multiples of ply trade.

bye

Michael


Good point.

Let&#39;s then multiply the number by 12 (a more typical number for a fishing vessel). So the number still comes out to roughly 96 gp per month (or 288 gp per season) with maintence costs of 750 gp per season they are still way short.

In order to just cover the maintenance costs the crew size would have to be at least 32.

How many would it take to be able to afford the 12,000 gp initial cost at a personal income rate of 8 gp per month or 24 gp per season? That is not even counting the costs of building/buying housing and such.

Again the scale puts things way out of reach if the standard Knarr is what is being used.

Or are you going to say that the full 200 members of the military unit it can carry is in actuality the crew of the ship when not on military actions?