Damn those Evil Goblins!

[Sidhain]

>When you break it all down we are really working over a dead horse. Goblins
>are as inherently evil, or inherently free willed, or even as inherently
>good as you decide. Do what best supports your world. That is the only
thing
>you can hold true to in your campaign.
>
>In my games, the are not inherently evil; but they are so much a product of
>their environment that I simply don't carry the notion of a good goblin. At
>best, MAYBE a neutral one, and hardly ever one that plays in my games as a
>PC. At least not one from BR.



Something to consider--unlike many AD&D worlds the authors of BR had a
reason for listing alignments for their creations they had a chance at that
time to indicate how different or similar a race would be from "normal"
AD*D, why did they choose to make Goblins "Evil"?
Since they couldn't have said differently (like they Did with Dragons, and
Giants)

I for one decide on the "plot" effects of a Good/Evil/Neutral Goblin for my
campaign, in fact my arguments are basically the same arguments other's used
to defend "Orcs" in AD&D being evil elsewhere--they aren't "mine" but I was
playing devils advocate--think before you immediately adopt they must be
Evil, or since our world is Grey so should Birthright be shades of grey.

Of course personally I also take the Designer's of the worlds ideas into
account as well--especially when it is already as well designed as
Birthright--it's the only world I don't have to endlessly tweak to fit my
vision.



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[Grimwell, Cerilian]

When you break it all down we are really working over a dead horse. Goblins
are as inherently evil, or inherently free willed, or even as inherently
good as you decide. Do what best supports your world. That is the only thing
you can hold true to in your campaign.

In my games, the are not inherently evil; but they are so much a product of
their environment that I simply don't carry the notion of a good goblin. At
best, MAYBE a neutral one, and hardly ever one that plays in my games as a
PC. At least not one from BR.

What I gleaned from the source materials on hand (I have the whole product
catalog, minus some novels which are not cannon anyway) is that the goblins
of Cerilia are different than the ones in other worlds. They are not stupid.
They are not resigned to a life of barbarianism. They are not above forming
a government. At least not inherently.

Problem is, they have made some bad choices and been run roughshod for it.
In it's current state, goblin civilization is so fragmented that it has
fully collapsed (IMC). They DO emulate their neighbors because they have
nothing else to emulate. Tal-Qazar, perhaps remembers a day when this was
different. But even he was under Azrai's call and is not old enough to
remember the glory years before the humans came.

My goblins have stats. My goblins are intelligent. My goblins DO trade with
their neighbors, and make treaties. Problem is, their lands are so
uncontrolled that trade, treaties, and other actions that signify a true
government simply cannot be maintained. Even the Spider does not have an
iron fist of control over his lands. He's bonkers and berzerk most of the
time (IMC) so even if he has the power to totally micromanage his nation, he
is just too inept to do it. Woe to the Anuireans if he ever regained his
hold on reality. Rock Butt may be the big one, but the Spider is no joke
IMC.

Those are my goblins. Do with yours what you want. Tell us about it. I want
to know. Maybe I will incorporate something of it into mine. The idea of an
eastern influenced society that has fallen into ruin is interesting to me.

Debating their relative Evil is non productive. That's totally a matter of
taste, and really helps none of us in any way. Stick with what your heart
tells you. In Birthright, the heart is the most important thing, it should
be the same with your campaigns.

Gosh, that sounds a bit too preachy. Sorry gang.


>
Grimwell, wizard of Cerilia
The Birthright Revival is NOW! :)
When you've had the best, why buy the rest?


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[Mark A Vandermeulen]

On Mon, 16 Aug 1999, Grimwell, Cerilian wrote:

> When you break it all down we are really working over a dead horse. Goblins
> are as inherently evil, or inherently free willed, or even as inherently
> good as you decide. Do what best supports your world. That is the only thing
> you can hold true to in your campaign.

For those who see goblins as inherently evil I refer you to the last
sentence of the section on Thurazor in the RoE book: "The best of them
[goblins] leave to become scouts and spies for the human realms; some even
study under human rangers!" Now, until we get 3rd Ed, is it not true that
all rangers must be of good alignment? Might this not suggest that at
least some goblins are capable of good alignments? I certainly don't mind
the "all goblins are evil" approach if that's the kind of game you want,
but in my games, I like exploring the interplay between action, intention,
and consequence, and the option to make ALMOST all goblins evil is just a
little too much to resist.

> In my games, the are not inherently evil; but they are so much a product of
> their environment that I simply don't carry the notion of a good goblin. At
> best, MAYBE a neutral one, and hardly ever one that plays in my games as a
> PC. At least not one from BR.

This is certainly how I handle it as well. And good (or even Neutral for
that matter) goblin is a special DM's character and a plot device,
important for the story I'm telling. In all honesty, I've never told such
a story, but I've gotten very intrigued by the possibility.

> What I gleaned from the source materials on hand (I have the whole product
> catalog, minus some novels which are not cannon anyway) is that the goblins
> of Cerilia are different than the ones in other worlds. They are not stupid.
> They are not resigned to a life of barbarianism. They are not above forming
> a government. At least not inherently.
>
> Problem is, they have made some bad choices and been run roughshod for it.
> In it's current state, goblin civilization is so fragmented that it has
> fully collapsed (IMC). They DO emulate their neighbors because they have
> nothing else to emulate. Tal-Qazar, perhaps remembers a day when this was
> different. But even he was under Azrai's call and is not old enough to
> remember the glory years before the humans came.

Once again, I am in complete agreement here. Thurazor clearly shows that
goblins are CAPABLE of forming governments, but that the centrifugal
forces that pull power away from a central authority are very strong, and
stability is seldom achieved for long. To me, my idea of strong goblin
"Clan Warlords," each of which is essentially a small despot,
perfectly free to do whatever he wants including raiding the adjacent
humans lands, fits this conception very well.

Mark VanderMeulen
vander+@pitt.edu
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