Chap 3

[epicsoul]

Before anything else is said, I hate resurrection. Always thought it was a weakness in the game, but it is built into the rules nowadays very much.

From revised chapter 3:

Resurrection
Resurrection is a rare occurrence in Cerilia. Although it is certainly possible to Raise Dead, most clerics are loath to do so. Firstly, death is assumed to be the providence of the gods. Only in the most unusual circumstances (and for the greater good) would most clerics choose to interfere with the will of the gods and rip a soul from its place of earned reward or punishment.
Secondly, when a scion dies, the vital energy of their bloodline is released at the moment of their death and absorbed by those nearby. A resurrected character's bloodline is gone forever. They have no bloodline score and are not a scion. They can certainly attempt to gain a new bloodline through investiture or bloodtheft, but their original bloodline can never be restored.
Lastly, when a regent dies, their domain passes to their heir (or becomes uncontrolled if they have no designated heir). The resurrected character is no longer a regent. Another now claims the gold and regency of the domain that they once held. History has shown that resurrecting a scion often leads to tragic events as the resurrected party is tempted to engage in bloodtheft to reclaim a birthright they feel is rightfully theirs. In order to reclaim their domain, a resurrected regent would need to somehow obtain a bloodline and re-invest their old realm from its current regent (their heir).
The potential for internecine war is not taken lightly in Cerilia (particularly in Anuire) and thus most churches (including the church of Haelyn) have dire prohibitions against the resurrection of regent characters. Likewise many churches forbid the use of resurrection magic on philosophical grounds. Most sects of Erik and Belinik, for example, perceive death as part of the natural order, albeit from different perspectives.

So, we know you lose your bloodline score, abilities, and regency. Fine.

Question:

What happens to your scion levels if you had a great bloodline? It can be assumed that the one level that is lost from the raising is one of the scion levels. However, if you <had> a Great bloodline, do you lose 2 levels then? Just wondering...

[Raesene Andu]

Good question. This is something that appears to be missing from the chapter on bloodlines, as it would also occur if a bloodline was divested or voluntarily passed on to a heir.

I've looked through chapter 2, but didn't find anything that mentions what happens to a blooded character with scion levels who loses his bloodline. Obvious he would lose the blood abilities and bloodline itself, but I would assume that skills and hps gained from those scion levels would remain. Losing a bloodline wouldn't mean that you would unlearn abilities.

As I understand things, gaining a major or great bloodline through designation, divestiture, or the land's choice, doesn't automatically give you additional scion levels, instead it gives you the chance to take a level or 2 of a scion class and discover your bloodline abilities. The reserse removes the bloodline, but wouldn't remove the classes gained when the ex-scion had a bloodline.

The lose of a scion level as the one level lost would make sense though. Personally I just don't like ressurection and don't use it in my campaign. If someone is dead, they are dead and that is that. Tends to make people look after their character's more. In a BR game, the threat of death should be enough to make a player designate a heir, although many still don't and pay the price when accidents occur. Perhaps that is one of the reason why so many realms haven't filled out all their holdings levels.

[irdeggman]

Good point about not addressing losing scion levels.

Probably best in Ch 8. I think that is a good place to insert the complexities of resurection and death in Birthright - what are the opinions on this?

As far as resurrection would go, yes the first level lost is logically the scion level. I think we had talked about before (albeit a long time ago when we discussed the feasability of scion levels in themselves). But the issue of a great bloodline (with 2 scon levels) is definitely an issue. The single scion level is pretty much a logic check and easily handled through ejudication of the rules.

As I see it there are 2 ways this can go.

(1) The player can choose to replace a scion level with a level of a different class.

(2) The player still has a scion level, but no blood abilites, since he has no bloodline, essentially it is now an empty level granted no special abilities and only saving throws, skill points and hit points.

There a logical reasons for applying either one.

The first makes it a boon to players be giving them something back. The second emphasized why death is real significant in Birthright, especially for scions.

Opinions?

[Raesene Andu]

If it is only a small piece of information, it shouldn't be too hard to insert into Chapter 2 should it? While it might fit in chapter 8, it does spread the information out a little more than I'd like.

Either there, or where the information on resurrection is put. However, as it also covered what happens with divestiture and willingly passing on the bloodline, it probably should go with the rest of the bloodline rules.

[RaspK_FOG]

I believe that it would fit best along with the rest of Chapter 2.

On the matter of how this should be handled, I believe that you also forgot something more: what of True Resurrection, which negates any level/Constitution loss?

As I see it, the options given us here are more or less this:
The player loses a scion level (if applicable) and any additional scion levels can be changed into some other class levels; the change costs 1.000 of any XP gained after the resurrection takes place for 1 scion level left and, if there is an additional scion level left, an additional 2.000 of any XP gained after the resurrestion occurs. Alternatively, one could probably take 1 month/domain turn per level for each level thus converted to "teach" himself in another art by paying the aforementioned XP costs as long as such an XP loss does not drop him a level.

For example, Fiona, a 2nd-level scion of Vorynn/8th-level noble/4th-level cleric of Ruornil dies in battle against an awnshegh and the nearest temple of Ruornil agrees to raise her (she is young but has no children and she is the only eligible hair, let's say); she is granted a True Resurrection and awakes alive and kicking and without losing a level, but with no bloodline! She can pay 1.000 XP from any XP she gains from now on or take a month/domain turn off to reeducate herself (say, gain an additional level of cleric) and pay the XP cost from her current XP total as long as this does not cause her to drop a level; she can then repeat the process, but the XP cost now is at 2.000 XP and, should she take her time off instead of adventuring or whatnot, it takes her an additional two-month-/-domain turns time.

[Raesene Andu]

I would prefer to see the ressurected character just keep the scion levels without the bloodline (so just the skills, hps, etc). It is easier to manage and makes player's really not look forward to death, assuming they can find someone to raise/ressurect them. Are there any clerics in Cerilia powerful enough to actually cast True Ressurection? Even normal ressurection you need a 13th level priest. If you look at Anuire that is... Rhobher Nichalier I believe, unless I've missed someone.

[RaspK_FOG]

I will kind of side with your point in the end, I believe, just an idea of how this could be handled if level exchange was to be implemented.

[hazard]

(2) The player still has a scion level, but no blood abilites, since he has no bloodline, essentially it is now an empty level granted no special abilities and only saving throws, skill points and hit points.

I am for this solution. Bat it is true that player mast have some compensation. I suggest same bonuses on getting Blood points (score) again. Lets say that you have emptiness in your soul and that you attract the blood that you miss. Something like a tragic character. You have lost grate deal of power and now you attract that power. So I think it would be ok to give a player tighmaevril ability until he reach a one half of his old Blood Score.

[Bokey]

I believe that resurrection of any type ( through raise dead, wish, greater resurrection, miracle) shouldn't even exist in a BR campaign. However, if we must put it in, then lets keep it in Ch. 2, and lets make it as simple as possible. I agree with Raesene Andu:

I would prefer to see the ressurected character just keep the scion levels without the bloodline (so just the skills, hps, etc).

There has to be some downside to death, and I believe allowing raised characters to reallocate previous class levels would be over-powering. Maybe the disadvantage of playing a handicapped "raised" character would incourage them to give up the ghost and move on to a new character.

[geeman]

At 05:51 PM 1/24/2005 +0100, Bokey wrote:



>There has to be some downside to death, and I believe allowing raised

>characters to reallocate previous class levels would be

>over-powering. Maybe the disadvantage of playing a handicapped "raised"

>character would incourage them to give up the ghost and move on to a new

>character.



I`d generally agree with that, but since the BR setting is based on D&D and

D&D has so many ways to bring back the dead the issue probably needs to be

addressed in some way.



A while back I wrote up some stuff entitled "Death: The Final Adventure"

which premises that BR souls have to traverse the SW in a type of

incorporeal form and in the process complete a series of individualized

test/trials that strip them of their material concerns in order to pass

through to the planes beyond. In the abstract, this process was justified

in order to balance the energies of the SW which mirrors the world of

light. As the soul goes through its travels it loses energy that diffuses

into the SW, balancing the equation between that reality and Aebrynis.



I mention it in this context because it occurs to me that a soul returning

from the planes beyond the SW might have to go through a similar process,

or that the energies of the SW might be in some other way balanced

out. Souls might have to literally fight their way back to the land of the

living. If one doesn`t want to go through an extensive "balance the

energies" adventure, it might be sensible that in BR the process might have

some other BR specific cost/requirement. Regency points, for instance,

might be required to return a soul to the land of the living in BR. That

would be a fairly easy thing to note in a BR update, and would fit in

context of the rest of the setting material. It would also limit the

amount of BR characters who return from the dead due to the fact that only

clerics with RP (temple regents most likely) would have the ability to

perform the spell.



Alternatively, being raised/resurrected might not be changed in any way,

but RP might be spent to return a scion to Aebrynis with his bloodline

intact. That would avoid some of the weirdness involved with portraying

bloodline through character levels.



Gary

[epicsoul]

After considering many of the options, I think we should at the very least consider this about scions:
Does it have prerequisites: has bloodline (major or great)
And if so, as the character no longer has the prereqs for it, do they lose it?

Or, the other way we go, which is to keep the level(s). This is what Raesene values, and I think I side with him. It also keeps from having a major headache of converting levels... which sets a bad precedent as well.

Also, this is all very hypothetical - I have never actually seen a BR campaign with resurrection - but I must assume that ANY person that had a major or great bloodline will be out to get a bloodline back, through whatever means their alignment will allow... which means, keeping the scion level may be beneficial; because they may get it back.

[A_dark]

can't you make treat them as ex-scions (like ex-paladins or ex-druids... these are all classes with prereqs that for some reason the player lost the prereq and he became and ex-whatever)

I am actually not going to be using the scion class anyways tho ;)

[RaspK_FOG]

An ex-scion way to put it would be a good idea:

Ex-scions: Characters with levels in the scion class who get back from the dead lose any and all bloodline-related class features; they otherwise retain their abilities, with the exception that, like all other characters with a bloodline, they lose their bloodline.


Or something along this line...

[Sarelth]

What about the characters with the Invulnerability Blood Ability. That is technically a Resurection ability, yet they do not lose anything.

What happens if they do in fact get destroyed and someone brings them back with an outside Resurection spell, would they still have their Invulnerability?

[Benjamin]

As far as I'm concerned, the Invulnerability blood ability makes it very hard to kill someone. But, if they are killed, by whatever crazy requirements the DM requires, then the person is just as dead as any other scion slain by more mundane means.

So if the ex-scion previously having Invulnerability who ends up being killed is later Raised/Resurrected/Reincarnated, then the ex-scion does not have Invulnerability, nor any other blood ability.

[irdeggman]

Yes Benjamin is correct. Dead is dead by whatever means accomplished it.

Invulnerability is not a resurrection style ability and shouldn't be confused with one.

Resurrection has to do with coming back from the dead, invulnerability has to do with being harder to kill, not staying dead since the scion is not dead.

[Sarelth]

Oops, was my bad, I was looking at the version of Invulnerability in the Playtest version. It said that if the character was killed that they would be resureccted in 24 hours.