[BIRTHRIGHT] Biological Det

[Sidhain]

>#1 as BC pointed out, neither women nor men seek sexual partners from all
>of their relationships. Some of us really do enjoy the friendship of
>opposite sex friends even when their is no sexual aspect to it. I have
>plenty of male friends whom I do not see as potential sexual partners. They
>are gaming friends or sports-minded friends, or JUST FRIENDS. I also know
>many men who have a wide variety of female friends, and are not trying to
>get them into bed. Many of us choose our friends based on compatability,
>not merely age or gender.
>


Indeed true, I have quite a few friends who are female, somewhat older than
me, from my classes in college, they are people I respect, care for and
love, but they are not lovers they are friends. We have a common interest so
we end up in many of the same classes we spend time talking and the like I
have even had one only ten years my elder try and set me up with her
daughter who was seven years younger than me.



>#2 Ah the age thing. If your theory is true,why do I have so many male
>friends who are 10, or even 20 years younger than I am. Should they not be
>out looking for 16 year olds?
>
>
I have friends male and female onlin and offline from 12-60, some made where
I worked, some made from my hobbies. Age and gender don't really make that
big a difference.
>#3 Your ideas are called BIOLOGICAL DETERMINISM. It is ONE theory that
>psychologists and others use to explain differences in behavior patterns
>between men and woman. As such it is a theory, not fact. Theories are ideas
>that have explanatory value, but they are not proven to be factual. In most
>cases, having a true experiment to prove them is impossible when you are
>talking about psychological theories. It also is only one theory. Many
>other theories and much research counters the idea of biological
>determinism. If you follow biological determinism to its "logical" results
>as you have done here, you get some conclusions that are disturbing at
>best. There is one train of thought that some researchers and others have
>followed that says that because of biological determinism, men are
>pre-programmed to rape.Neither love or affection is necessary to the male
>urge to reproduce his own genes and father children to follow him. This is
>abhorrent to most of the men I know. . My own psychology background covered
>a lot of this in detail. I do not intend to get into a thesis on
>biological determinism, but wanted to point out that unless you have a
>psychology degree, specializing in biological determinism, maybe you should
>be cautious what you say is a fact.
>


I would like to point out that communication is the key mena and women
communicate differently, and its not harwired genes that make anyone how
they are but millions of subtle factors (food my ancestors appearently got
more of it than others so they are genetecially predisposed to being bigger
larger people, I am 6'1 not huge but I have been to New York and looked over
the heads of people and wondered gee why are these people so short) this is
true of men and women women typically didn't get as much food as the males
because they were not hunters, in cultures where the women were hunters they
developed the larger mass and strenght over millennia of this habit (some
Pacific Islands have this gender roles are also reversed)
Two things I suggest don't take a Psychology course and things its the be
all end all of understanding humankind take some commmunications courses
specifically Gender Communication (I don't know how good your profs will be
but mine was greate a very insightful person)



>#4 Back to Birthright. I like some of what has been said about the gods,
>after apotheosis, being changed enough so that while humans still have some
>association with them and they care for them, they do not desire them in
>the same way. This would affect Haelyn, Erik and others who were once
>human. Add in the fact that Lawful Giid Haelyn is married to Nesirie. A
>lawful good god married to a goddess is not likely to roam too far. Erik is
>neutral so you might argue that he is more likely to consider it, but his
>wife Avani is Lawful Neutral. Her husband consorting so intimately with
>humans would offend her lawful nature and remember that even Zeus got a
>hard time from Hera over his philandering. Even if the husband's alignment
>would allow it, would he risk the wrath of his goddess wife?




Well I would say that alignement does have a strong trend towards
determining a GOds behavior, the Gods of BIrthright are not the Greeks who
impregnate anything that moves.


>
>Sure Cuiraecen is chaotic, but with the goddess Laerme as a lover (check
>the BOP) and the goddess Elole also supposedly interested and possibly his
>lover, why would be care to be with human women? Same for Laerme, as she
>has the god Cuiraecen as a lover, why would a human male interest her? And
>don't forget that
>Eloele, Cuiraecen,and Laerme were born gods. They were never human, so
>their ties to humans are even less strong than for the gods who
>apothesized.




Well Gods that are chaotic will tend to be less likely to stick to anything,
Ioftend Describe Chaotic as having Attention Deficit Disorder one
can be loyal brave trustworthy and directed it just takes more work than for
someone without that "problem" I myself have ADD and impulse control is
sometimes a difficult thing to deal with.

>Finally as has been pointed out, the gods agreed not to fully manifest in
>Cerilia again.
>


Cannot argue with that. but if the Greek Myths are a Guide
"Fully" manifest might be one of those things one can get around I mean Zeus
has appeared and Swan's, Bull's Eagles and even a "sheet of golden
rain/light" in order to assuage his ego and lust. Those forms might be
considered "not fully manifesting" since the true forms of the Gods with all
their Glory are said to burn mortals to ash..in Grecian lore.

[WILLELA@aol.co]

My, my, I get some more critics on my thoughts on the Birthright gods
having a few human lovers. So a few comments.
People have friends of the opposite sex? Of course. I mentioned so in
a previous message. The point is percentage. You stick with your own sex in
the sharp majority of cases. Notably, none of those mentioning their variety
of friends offered any percentages. If they had, we likely would have seen
the old saying "Birds of a feather flock together."
Laerme least likely to bear children because that cuts into social life?
-Gary of GeeMan@linkline.com(GeeMan)-
...because she has godly lovers? -Sinhain@earthlink.net(sinhain)-
See Venus. She had both godly and human lovers, and godly and human
kids. The goddess of love becomes the goddess of mothers, about 9 months
later.
Also see Ilmatar, Finish LG goddess of mothers in Deities & Demigods. Her
human child was Vainamoinen
Alignment makes a difference? Of course, but more in style than in
number of incidents. Our CE would prefer rape. Our LE would involve
slavery. Our CG would be a lovely romantic weekend. Our LG would want a
permanent relationship.
There is an implied law in these arguments that the law limits one to
one sexual partner. But that is clearly challenged by history. It is also
challenged by BR text, which notes multiple marriages in Khinasi lands. So
any theory that a lawful alignment limits the fun & games is faulty.
Male friends should be chasing 16 year olds by my theory? -Brenda
Santen bsanten@home.com(brenda l. santen) Perhaps you have missed the many
denouncements of 16-year old lasses knocked up by adult males. We boys are
indeed chasing young stuff.
Biological determinism...just one theory.. Santen Gravity is just
one theory. Granted, gravity is a theory on a simple subject (tho even the 3
body problem may prove impossible to solve) and human/animal behavior is much
more complex. But the theory is dominant and those rejecting it are largely
reduced to merely using variations of it.
...has disturbing conclusions? This is a sign of a proper theory. If
the conclusions were not disturbing, one should suspect the theory is what
you would like it to be rather than what is.
Says men are pre-programmed to rape? And this is abhorrent to most men?
But men are pre-programmed to rape, when that is the superior strategy for
reproduction. You can find this illustrated much better in orangutans and
some scorpions, where the big male meets the eager welcome of the female
while the small male rapes because he is not welcomed.
A recent survey said 35% of males confessed to be willing to rape under
the proper conditions, which suggests to me that 65% of males lie.
We males do not as a group approve of rape either. But we obviously do
rape.
"Women typically didn't get as much food because they were not hunters."
- - sinhain-
Better recheck your source. The ancient non-hunting female produced
about 85% of the total food. The meat the male hunter supplied was superior
food, but it was a definite minority in most cases. It was not lack of
hunting that caused any food shortage for the female.

To be remembered here is that we don't need many cases of human-god
congress. The claim the gods don't do it often is quite compatible with all
the holy bastards we need.

Yours for deeper dungeons
David Argall

[Sidhain]

> See Venus. She had both godly and human lovers, and godly and human
> kids. The goddess of love becomes the goddess of mothers, about 9 months
> later.
> Also see Ilmatar, Finish LG goddess of mothers in Deities & Demigods. Her
> human child was Vainamoinen
> Alignment makes a difference? Of course, but more in style than in
> number of incidents. Our CE would prefer rape. Our LE would involve
> slavery. Our CG would be a lovely romantic weekend. Our LG would want a
> permanent relationship.

> A recent survey said 35% of males confessed to be willing to rape
under
> the proper conditions, which suggests to me that 65% of males lie.
> We males do not as a group approve of rape either. But we obviously
do
> rape.


We? whose we buddy, I am male and wouldn't rape anyone under any conditions.
I
> "Women typically didn't get as much food because they were not
hunters."
> - sinhain-
> Better recheck your source. The ancient non-hunting female produced
> about 85% of the total food. The meat the male hunter supplied was
superior
> food, but it was a definite minority in most cases. It was not lack of
> hunting that caused any food shortage for the female.

Yes "lack" is a problem for you?
Lack of "quality" food then
Bulk doesn't make up for quality, my sources are correct, they said "The
lack of high protien foods nessecary for muscular development was lacking in
( I have the percentages somewhere but its not that important) pre
civilized female diets"
JUst because I didn't specifiy type of food doesn't mean my sources are
wrong, if the food women ate didn't provide them with the equivilant
nutritional values as men and as a result men got larger than women, then
that food which they produced/recieved was "less" food (whether by virtue
of quantity or quality)


>
> To be remembered here is that we don't need many cases of human-god
> congress. The claim the gods don't do it often is quite compatible with
all
> the holy bastards we need.


Well I wasn't arguing that it couldn't occur nor unlikely, just unlikely in
the case of Gods of lawful/ and or good alignments. I used the Greeks as an
example because they were nigh about teh lustiest collection of Gods, I
wouldn't give one of them a "Good" alignment and very few "lawful",however
if I used Teutonic, or Celtic, you would see it isn't a rarety for the Gods
known to be "chaotic", but Tyr and Forseti didn't seem to ahve kids out of
matrimony, neither did Nuada Silverarm to my knowledge (though my Celts myth
is a bit fuzzy) since I don't use TSR as the end all be all of Mythological
representation...I rarely use what they consider to be a Deities
abilities/powers etc when they use real world mythologies, because Gygax and
company just got some of them wrong. PERIOD... and those errors have been
perpetuated ad infinitum by people who read only "game" related material.

and btw the way the name is S I D H A I N (I understand on some
newsreader/e-mail programs that a dh together can look odd)

Peace and Good Gaming :)
Sidhain

[DKEvermore@aol.co]

Okay the List Monitor, Sepsis must be dead or gone without a word to let this
go on so long. So I'll ask.

End this thread. It's boring, it's mostly nonsense and has veared so far away
from the original topic to be useless in the game.

You can comment to me if you like, but I'm deleting this thread from here on
out (including my own post).

- -Dustin Evermore

[Bob Cauthron]

> snip <

> But I will say a little on rape & all the claims that the writer
never
> would rape.
> "...never, never..."
> "What? Never?"
> "No, Never!"
> "What? Never?"
> "Well,..hardly ever."
> -various Gilbert & Sullivan songs-
> Of course, we say we never rape. For one thing, what sensible lass
> would stay within reach if we admitted otherwise. But look at the rape
> rates, multiply them to account for the rate they are not reported, and
> remember that is just for one year, not a lifetime. The result shows a
lot
> of men do rape, and they come from all classes, cultures, and races. The
> reasons the rest of us don't are pramatic. The cops might thow us in
jail.
> Somebody might shoot us. We are getting enough elsewhere....(& in my own
> case, the embarrassing possibility the little lass might beat me up.) To
> make the categorical statement we would never rape is simply to lie.
> Yours for deeper dungeons
> David Argall

This drifted away from br some posts ago. This has somehow become a
personal, non-gaming forum. It has no place on this list, and I am seriously
reconsidering my subscription to this list because of it. While that is of
no concern to others (as it should be), it saddens me, for there has been
some quality content provided by different people.

Bob