Son of Benelik

[Olesens]

I was watching a bit of Hercules and I wondered if any Birthright gods
had half-human children. Going through the list, Benelik seems to be
the only one who would do such a thing. Does this sound too odd or what
do all of you think? Maybe some Ed/Carrie comments?

- -Andrew

[WILLELA@aol.co]

Belinik is far from the only god likely to have half-human kids. Laerme,
goddess or romance among other things, would be almost violating her own
creed if she didn't. & one can assume that any of the male gods are willing
to "bless" a "deserving" female (in some cases paying attention to her
opinion on the subject).
From the view of game logic, we also should assume a number of holy
bastards. It has been thousands of years since Mortals have become blooded,
and even the strongest line would vanish within centuries. Of course Regents
can keep the family line from being weakened, but that just means nearly all
blooded individuals must be within about 3 generations of some regent, & we
want to spread the Blood around a lot more than that. So the Gods getting
hold of attractive mortals and starting new lines is game useful.
Yours for deeper dungeons
David Argall

[Olesens]

WILLELA@aol.com wrote:

> Belinik is far from the only god likely to have half-human kids. Laerme,
> goddess or romance among other things, would be almost violating her own
> creed if she didn't. & one can assume that any of the male gods are willing
> to "bless" a "deserving" female (in some cases paying attention to her
> opinion on the subject).
>

Yeah, but that "blessing" isn't particularly noble. Sera (of Greek mythology)
tends to get pissed off when Zeus "blesses" someone, as most any wife would. And
I don't imagine Haelyn doing that.

- -Andrew

[Mark A Vandermeulen]

On Sun, 18 Apr 1999 WILLELA@aol.com wrote:

> Belinik is far from the only god likely to have half-human kids. Laerme,
> goddess or romance among other things, would be almost violating her own
> creed if she didn't. & one can assume that any of the male gods are willing
> to "bless" a "deserving" female (in some cases paying attention to her
> opinion on the subject).

The only problem I have with this, is that it would seem to violate the
god's "agreement" that they will never again fully manifest on the
Cerilian plane. It would seem to me that a god would require manifestation
in order to reproduce. Thus, it would seem to me that the only way that
this would really happen would be a.) a god decided to "ignore" his/her
oath not to manifest (and I agree that Belenik might be most likely to do
this, but you could make a case for any god with "evil" or "chaotic" in
their alignment description), or b.) if a mortal 'ascended' to the god's
spiritual (planar) realm, either by his/her own whim and effort or by the
god's invitation/summoning. In either case, I would think this would be a
VERY RARE event. Such individuals might be considered "saints" by their
respective religions.

> From the view of game logic, we also should assume a number of holy
> bastards. It has been thousands of years since Mortals have become blooded,
> and even the strongest line would vanish within centuries. Of course Regents
> can keep the family line from being weakened, but that just means nearly all
> blooded individuals must be within about 3 generations of some regent, & we
> want to spread the Blood around a lot more than that. So the Gods getting
> hold of attractive mortals and starting new lines is game useful.

Well, assuming that a god/mortal crossbreed is not sterile. Or for that
matter finds mortals attractive.

Mark VanderMeulen
vander+@pitt.edu

[WILLELA@aol.co]

The gods are bound by an agreement not to fully manifest themselves in the
area? I can drive a dragon thru that "fully" loophole. One avatar is quite
sufficient for the task at hand.
For that matter, this lovely piece insists she wants to really prove how
devoted she is to You. You really want to try to convince me you are not
going to do something vulgar and painful to anyone who presents this
agreement?
Yours for deeper dungeons
David Argall

[Tommy Ashton]

At 09:34 AM 4/20/99 -0400, you wrote:
>I was under the impression that the gods had agreed never to manifest in
>Cerilia all at the same time and battle each other in physical form,
possibly
>bringing on another Deismaar- like cataclysm. But that pledge wouldn't
>necessarily preclude a god sending an avatar to the prime plane to
accomplish
>some goal or whatnot. However, such a union between god and mortal to bring
>a semi-divine child into the world would be extremely rare, IMO. It would
>most probably only be done because the child is destined to carry out some
>great and holy purpose.
Yeah, like reestablishing a Andu bloodline to replace the roeles. Maybe
Haelyn has just became to tired waiting for someone to step forward to
reuinite his Anuiren Empire.
T

>************************************************** *************************
>>'unsubscribe birthright' as the body of the message.
>

[JNeighb934@aol.co]

In a message dated 04/19/99 9:59:01 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
vander+@pitt.edu writes:

[Mark A Vandermeulen]

On Tue, 20 Apr 1999 JNeighb934@aol.com wrote:

> I was under the impression that the gods had agreed never to manifest in
> Cerilia all at the same time and battle each other in physical form, possibly
> bringing on another Deismaar- like cataclysm. But that pledge wouldn't
> necessarily preclude a god sending an avatar to the prime plane to accomplish
> some goal or whatnot. However, such a union between god and mortal to bring
> a semi-divine child into the world would be extremely rare, IMO. It would
> most probably only be done because the child is destined to carry out some
> great and holy purpose.

Well, I don't hold much truck with what "Avatars" are officially supposed
to be like--I don't have the relevant rulebooks and little interest in
acquiring them, so I don't know what kind of heresy I'm espousing here.
But I'm not too fond of the idea that the gods spend much of their time
kickin' up the dust of Cerilia. I think that they DO appear occasionally,
but usually in the spiritiual form that Cerilians have come to call
Avatars, in which they can be seen at will, and interact verbally and
magically with those they meet. They can even magically manipulate weapons
and shields, etc., but are not themselves physically present. In general,
in order to rescue a favorite from a stormy shipwreck, they'd rather
manipulate events to ensure that someone in a lifeboat "happened" to reach
the drowning soul in the nick of time, than to reach in and grab the
scruff of their necks and pull them to safety.

Just my own biases, of course. Feel free to disagree with me.

Mark VanderMeulen
vander+@pitt.edu

[Mark A Vandermeulen]

On Tue, 20 Apr 1999 WILLELA@aol.com wrote:

> The gods are bound by an agreement not to fully manifest themselves in the
> area? I can drive a dragon thru that "fully" loophole. One avatar is quite
> sufficient for the task at hand.
> For that matter, this lovely piece insists she wants to really prove how
> devoted she is to You. You really want to try to convince me you are not
> going to do something vulgar and painful to anyone who presents this
> agreement?

Well, completely setting aside the question of whether or not gods are
even ATTRACTED to mere mortals any more, there is also the concept that
gods are in a better position than anyone to appreciate the concequences
of their actions. Most of them might realize that, in the long run, it
generally turns out better for them if they respect their loyal followers
than take advantage of them--however devoted they are. Who knows what kind
of psychological changes occur with apotheosis, but I expect that at least
in part it involves starting to think--and plan--on scales of generations
and centuries and relatively less emphasis on instant gratification. Now
granted this is less likely for some than others (esp. Belenik, Laerme,
and Eloele might still be quite into instant gratification, and perhaps
Cuiraecen too), but it would seem to me that most of the other gods might
see it as a little to vulgar for their deified tastes.

Does this make sense to ANYONE else, or am I just blowin' wind?

Mark VanderMeulen
vander+@pitt.edu

[WILLELA@aol.co]

Mark VanderMeulen [vander+@pitt.edu] wonders if the gods would be attracted
to mortals. A quick look at nearly any religion or set of ancient stories
settles this in the affirmative. See Hercules or Genesis.
...feels the gods might hesitate due to the possible consequences.. An
idea that can quickly be rejected after a quick count of all the times you
have made a fool of yourself over a little number, plus those times you would
have if you weren't being watched closely.
....thinks they might hesitate to take advantage of their
worshipers...which also is hit by reality. The ladies do look upwards for
lovers and nobody is more up than their god. The number of female worshipers
downright eager to be "taken advantage of" by their god would be huge.
Objectively, there is every reason to assume there are plenty of
half-gods running around, many of them likely PCs.
Yours for deeper dungeons
David Argall

[Craig Dalrymple]

- ----- Original Message -----
From:
To:
Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 1999 3:22 AM
Subject: Re: [BIRTHRIGHT] - Son of Benelik


> Mark VanderMeulen [vander+@pitt.edu] wonders if the gods would be
attracted
> to mortals. A quick look at nearly any religion or set of ancient stories
> settles this in the affirmative. See Hercules or Genesis.
> ...feels the gods might hesitate due to the possible consequences..
An
> idea that can quickly be rejected after a quick count of all the times you
> have made a fool of yourself over a little number, plus those times you
would
> have if you weren't being watched closely.
> ....thinks they might hesitate to take advantage of their
> worshipers...which also is hit by reality. The ladies do look upwards for
> lovers and nobody is more up than their god. The number of female
worshipers
> downright eager to be "taken advantage of" by their god would be huge.
> Objectively, there is every reason to assume there are plenty of
> half-gods running around, many of them likely PCs.
> Yours for deeper dungeons
> David Argall

I think David is hitting the nail on the head here. Especially when you
remember
the fact that these gods were all once mortals. I think this is a
fascinating point
to ponder. Even though they have divine power, they would still have "human"
wants and needs.

Of course we have had some 2,000 years for them to change and become
more deific than human, but the shadows of their old physical hang ups might
still haunt them.

Craig

[Mark A Vandermeulen]

OK, now I'm going to start getting defensive, because your response has a
tone I can only interpret as mildly insulting.

On Wed, 21 Apr 1999 WILLELA@aol.com wrote:

> Mark VanderMeulen [vander+@pitt.edu] wonders if the gods would be attracted
> to mortals. A quick look at nearly any religion or set of ancient stories
> settles this in the affirmative. See Hercules or Genesis.

First of all, this is a bald overgeneralization (and you'd better be able
to explain your reference to Genesis...). Second, just because that's how
many gods have been interpreted in the past, does not at all mean that
this is how they MUST BE in Cerilia. I mean, are we really debating about
gods here as if they had some empirical characteristics that can be
categorically defined? OK, so the Cerilian gods were obviously created
based on greek and nordic mythological progenitors, but that doesn't mean
we have to translate ALL the characteristics of those gods whole stock
into our games. If I want to spend some creative energy wondering about
the psychological effects of apotheosis, what's the harm in that? It
certainly shouldn't prevent you from playing the Cerilian gods the way YOU
want to.

> ...feels the gods might hesitate due to the possible consequences.. An
> idea that can quickly be rejected after a quick count of all the times you
> have made a fool of yourself over a little number, plus those times you would
> have if you weren't being watched closely.

Firstly, I am not a god. Therefore, any characteristics (or faults) of my
own personality cannot be said to necessarily be those of a god. I am
also reasonably certain that you are not a god, and are not therefore
talking from personal experience. Now, I'm perfectly willing to accept
that SOME of those might be relevant to gods, and particularly gods who,
as our story goes, were only humans themselves, but they have had
THOUSANDS of years of existance in which to change. Now, I know that I
myself, with only a measly 30 years of experience, have changed in
personality quite a lot, so I can only dimly imagine what the Cerilian
gods must have undergone. Further, how would it change YOUR behavior if
you knew WITHOUT A DOUBT, that by sleeping with a particular person, you
would cause thousands of people to be slaughtered in 150 years. And how
about if you were only REASONABLY SURE, that it would be VERY LIKELY to
occur? Would having that kind of knowledge of the consequences of your
actions change the way you would behave? I think (and hope) that it would.
Now, that kind of omniscience and fate determinism doesn't necessarily
need to be a part of a role-playing fantasy world, but there's also no
reason that it CAN'T be part of them. It certainly IS characteristic of a
number of real world religions, and some in fantasy literature as well.

> ....thinks they might hesitate to take advantage of their
> worshipers...which also is hit by reality. The ladies do look upwards for
> lovers and nobody is more up than their god. The number of female worshipers
> downright eager to be "taken advantage of" by their god would be huge.

I certainly hope any female readers of this list find this statement to be
as grotesquely sexist as I do. I don't doubt that it CAN occur, but I find
your logic to be appalling. I personally believe that MOST people who are
looking for love and intimacy are looking for a life companion with whom
they can share the joys and pains of existance, not for a quick hoist up
the social ladder. I would certainly HOPE that the number of people
willing to prostitute themselves in return for temporal power would not be
"huge." That being said, I CAN see it being done occasionally, but only
for very good reasons, and only with the consent of both parties (at least
for the gods of good alignment). And there are ALSO stories in mythology
of people going mad after having intercourse with gods, being that close
to something so much "bigger" than you.

(I appologize for making the above paragraph a bigger flame than I
intended. I do not think that you are sexist, just that you made a sexist
statement. Your other posts have led me to respect you as a person and a
role-player, and I have not lost any of that respect. But I do feel
pretty strongly that some things ought to be addressed.)

> Objectively, there is every reason to assume there are plenty of
> half-gods running around, many of them likely PCs.

Perhaps it's just my training and biases as a scientist, but do you
seriously believe that there is anything at all "objective" about the
arguments you are making here? This IS a game, you know, a piece of
fiction.

Mark VanderMeulen
vander+@pitt.edu

[Mathieu Roy]

Mark A Vandermeulen wrote:

> > ....thinks they might hesitate to take advantage of their
> > worshipers...which also is hit by reality. The ladies do look upwards for
> > lovers and nobody is more up than their god. The number of female worshipers
> > downright eager to be "taken advantage of" by their god would be huge.
>
> I certainly hope any female readers of this list find this statement to be
> as grotesquely sexist as I do.

I'm not too sure, seeing as there must be a nice contingent of upward-looking young
lords who would love to be taken advantadge of by Laerme... =)

Mathieu

[MrSpears@aol.co]

>

That might not even be a question, though. The God might just be
impregnating his/her follower in order to conceive a child which could show
the world the way to salvation. Sort of a Jesus thing. In that same light,
the god wouldn't even necesarrily have to use the human method of
impregnation...it could be more of the implanting of a seed in the womb type
thing. Of course, they'd probably have a reason for this other than just
trying to overrun the world with their children, but a reason shouldn't be
all that hard to find. And as for this being a way to take advantage of a
follower...sending a god-child to the world to further the aims of the god
would probably not fall under that category, especially if the god asked the
follower first. Besides, gods might not even have human sexual desires (or
at least not all) and therefore wouldn't be going around with humans unless
there was an actual need for it.
Spencer