Neserie, the Shadow World and t

[JNeighb934@aol.co]

In a message dated 04/02/99 11:51:25 AM Pacific Standard Time,
GeeMan@linkline.com writes:

>

This is a very intriguing idea. I like it. It makes sense too, because
apparently the Shadow World power arose sometime shortly before Deismaar. At
least, this is when the first halfling refugees began crossing over. Perhaps
Azrai was not completely confident that he would emerge victorious, he had to
consider the possibility of his own demise in the battle. So he caused a son
to be "born" (the mother could be a powerful demoness?) to carry on the fight
in case something happened to him, but hopefully, if Azrai were victorious,
to become his most powerful minion corrupting the fairie world as Azrai
corrupted the mortal world. Azrai was known as the Shadow, a god of darkness
and corruption, the same qualities the Cold Rider exhibits. More evidence
linking them together. This Son of Azrai could be the one granting the
Adurian priests their spells, with the priesthood considering him the rebirth
of Azrai and so refer to Jr. as Azrai as well.
And it is suggested in the Rulebook that some of the more powerful
awnsheghlien (the Gorgon included) answer to a power even more evil and more
powerful than themselves. If this power were the Son of Azrai, also known as
the Cold Rider, then events could easily lead to a truly epic battle of
historic proportions, a second Deismaar with the entire forces of good and
evil meeting on the field with the future of the world hanging in the
balance. This would make a great storyline and theme for a campaign.

[JNeighb934@aol.co]

In a message dated 04/02/99 11:51:25 AM Pacific Standard Time,
GeeMan@linkline.com writes:

>

I'm interested in finding out the source where you got that information? One
of the novels, perhaps, or from one of the sourcebooks?

[Gary V. Foss]

JNeighb934@aol.com wrote:

> In a message dated 04/02/99 11:51:25 AM Pacific Standard Time,
> GeeMan@linkline.com writes:
>
> wants to go check. >>
>
> I'm interested in finding out the source where you got that information? One
> of the novels, perhaps, or from one of the sourcebooks?

Actually, I was thinking of the list of gods in the Guide to the Astral Plane
(p38), but it turns out I am incorrect if that reference is correct. It lists
all the "good" Cerilian gods who died at Deismaar, but Azrai is NOT on that
list.... (I think at this point the music should swell dramatically and everyone
should look at each other apprehensively.)

Of course, that list is not definitive, and it says right that there that there
are "many more" but it would seem odd to list every god who died from the
campaign setting, but omit Azrai. Hmmmm. Got to think about this one a bit....

Gary

[JNeighb934@aol.co]

So my original thought that Azrai may indeed still be alive is starting to
make more sense now? I also had a thought that he channeled some of his
essence into some object, like the silver owl-shaped pendant Vorynn gave to
Ruornil just before Deismaar. After the cataclysm, that object got blown
many miles away from the site and ended up buried deep beneath the earth, but
it enabled Azrai to survive. But because he is separated from the vessel
bearing his essence, his power is now severely limited. He must regain the
vessel to return to his former power and glory, but because of the strength
of the Anuirean Empire his minions could not recover it. You see, they would
have to control the land in order to recover the object, there's no way they
could dig up that much earth in secret.
Where is the object located? Somewhere underneath Medoere. That is why
Ruornil directed his prophetess Suris Enlien to establish a theocracy in that
land, (an extremely unusual thing for a church of Ruornil to do) to guard
over the object and keep Azrai's minions from getting to it. After the
Empire fell apart, Ruornil became worried and decided his priests would have
to take matters into their own hands. However, I have not had the benefit of
reading the sourcebook on Medoere yet, so I don't know if that reference
gives another reason for the theocracy's existence.
I still like the idea of the son of Azrai being the Cold Rider, though. He
could definitely still fit into this scenario. Does anyone think this sounds
like a good campaign plot, or do you think Azrai is better left dead? Would
his being alive alter the setting too much? But again, where are the priests
of the Adurian Empire and the Hand of Azrai getting their spells if Azrai is
totally extinct?

[Pieter Sleijpen]

The Playersecret book states that Ruornil has got something in mind with
the theocracy. What that is, is not known to the priests of Ruornil, but
there is a holy sword for a palaadin of Ruornil (as anyone who is a
member of the mailing list for some time probably already knows). So
your idea of this goal is as good as any, if not as good. Your idea of
Azrai looks good to my idea, it is similar to what happened with Myrkul
in the FR. His essence is in an artefact and he does not mind one bit.
Now he is not bind by the rules of the deities and wreak as much havoc
and death as he wants.

Pieter

JNeighb934@aol.com wrote:
>
> So my original thought that Azrai may indeed still be alive is starting to
> make more sense now? I also had a thought that he channeled some of his
> essence into some object, like the silver owl-shaped pendant Vorynn gave to
> Ruornil just before Deismaar. After the cataclysm, that object got blown
> many miles away from the site and ended up buried deep beneath the earth, but
> it enabled Azrai to survive. But because he is separated from the vessel
> bearing his essence, his power is now severely limited. He must regain the
> vessel to return to his former power and glory, but because of the strength
> of the Anuirean Empire his minions could not recover it. You see, they would
> have to control the land in order to recover the object, there's no way they
> could dig up that much earth in secret.
> Where is the object located? Somewhere underneath Medoere. That is why
> Ruornil directed his prophetess Suris Enlien to establish a theocracy in that
> land, (an extremely unusual thing for a church of Ruornil to do) to guard
> over the object and keep Azrai's minions from getting to it. After the
> Empire fell apart, Ruornil became worried and decided his priests would have
> to take matters into their own hands. However, I have not had the benefit of
> reading the sourcebook on Medoere yet, so I don't know if that reference
> gives another reason for the theocracy's existence.
> I still like the idea of the son of Azrai being the Cold Rider, though. He
> could definitely still fit into this scenario. Does anyone think this sounds
> like a good campaign plot, or do you think Azrai is better left dead? Would
> his being alive alter the setting too much? But again, where are the priests
> of the Adurian Empire and the Hand of Azrai getting their spells if Azrai is
> totally extinct?
> ************************************************** *************************
> > 'unsubscribe birthright' as the body of the message.

[Jim Cooper]

JNeighb934@aol.com wrote:
> And it is suggested in the Rulebook that some of the more powerful
> awnsheghlien (the Gorgon included) answer to a power even more evil and more powerful than themselves. If this power were the Son of Azrai, also known as the Cold Rider, then events could easily lead to a truly epic battle of historic proportions, a second Deismaar with the entire forces of good and evil meeting on the field with the future of the world hanging in the balance. This would make a great storyline and theme for a campaign.<

Yep - this *is* my current campaign. (Except that the Cold Rider is the
real Azrai, not the 'offspring'). The Second Shadow War is upon the
people of Cerilia, and the dawn of a new age has arrived ... ;)

I've broken my campaign up into 5 'generations', and my players have
made up characters for each human culture, whom they play when I focus
on that area in each generation. So far, the campaign is going great,
but only 1 of my players really suspects whats actually unfolding around
them! Soon they will be introduced to The Cold Rider's right hand agent
(The Ghul Lord, whom I mentioned before), and hopefully, I will rope
them in to their inescapable fates (death by the hand of Azrai!)

Muwhuhahahahahahaaaa!

Cheers,
Darren

[Gary V. Foss]

JNeighb934@aol.com wrote:

> So my original thought that Azrai may indeed still be alive is starting to
> make more sense now? I also had a thought that he channeled some of his
> essence into some object, like the silver owl-shaped pendant Vorynn gave to
> Ruornil just before Deismaar. After the cataclysm, that object got blown
> many miles away from the site and ended up buried deep beneath the earth, but
> it enabled Azrai to survive. But because he is separated from the vessel
> bearing his essence, his power is now severely limited. He must regain the
> vessel to return to his former power and glory, but because of the strength
> of the Anuirean Empire his minions could not recover it. You see, they would
> have to control the land in order to recover the object, there's no way they
> could dig up that much earth in secret.
> Where is the object located? Somewhere underneath Medoere. That is why
> Ruornil directed his prophetess Suris Enlien to establish a theocracy in that
> land, (an extremely unusual thing for a church of Ruornil to do) to guard
> over the object and keep Azrai's minions from getting to it. After the
> Empire fell apart, Ruornil became worried and decided his priests would have
> to take matters into their own hands. However, I have not had the benefit of
> reading the sourcebook on Medoere yet, so I don't know if that reference
> gives another reason for the theocracy's existence.
> I still like the idea of the son of Azrai being the Cold Rider, though. He
> could definitely still fit into this scenario. Does anyone think this sounds
> like a good campaign plot, or do you think Azrai is better left dead? Would
> his being alive alter the setting too much? But again, where are the priests
> of the Adurian Empire and the Hand of Azrai getting their spells if Azrai is
> totally extinct?

I like this scenario, personally. I might do something like it in my campaign,
but I'm thinking that I will do the following:

1. Azrai is dead. I just think he should have been killed at Deismaar otherwise
the gods' sacrifice was less significant, and I still can't figure out how his
bloodline would have been spattered around if he didn't die just like everyone
else.

2. This item, however, is something that the Cold Rider (his offspring) is
looking for so that he can bring his father back. CR has been waiting on the SW,
looking for this item to turn up in that epic fantasy, Tolkienesque kind of way
that is so prevelant in fantasy settings.

3. I'll combine adventure and realm actions by having a few agents of the CR come
in to try to get this item (I have to figure out how to get my PCs from Aerenwe
to Medoere because that is where they are based) and then add in realm actions
when he comes personally and in force to attempt to get it (assuming the PCs
thwart his agents).

Depending on how things go this could be a pretty big deal. I'm going to have to
give it some thought.

Gary

[DKEvermore@aol.co]

In a message dated 4/3/99 1:13:22 AM Central Daylight Time,
GeeMan@linkline.com writes:

> Of course, that list is not definitive, and it says right that there that
> there
> are "many more" but it would seem odd to list every god who died from the
> campaign setting, but omit Azrai. Hmmmm. Got to think about this one a
bit.
> ...
>
> Gary
>
Yep, noticed this myself after one of my players lent me his Planescape book.
I decided there was a very good reason for this.

Perhaps Azrai was "reduced", not destroyed. He was after all powerful enough
to kill 7 other gods. I know that's not precisely how it is stated, but I
think if there could be a posthumous trial against Azrai for this, he would
be convicted of murdering 7 gods.

Sure they hurt him back. BOOM. ouch. I don't even think he necessarily
needs to "recover" all his old bloodline. It might just be easier to build
himself up again.

I see the Cold Rider of the Shadow World as a manifestation of Azrai himself.
If you really want to scare the players, note that he has control of an
ENTIRE WORLD about the same size of Cerilia. When he begins to reach through
the veil into Cerilia again.... well I wonder if the new gods would have even
have a chance. But that's why there are great artifacts and PCs! :)

- -DKE

[Mark A Vandermeulen]

On Sat, 3 Apr 1999 JNeighb934@aol.com wrote:

> I still like the idea of the son of Azrai being the Cold Rider, though. He
> could definitely still fit into this scenario. Does anyone think this sounds
> like a good campaign plot, or do you think Azrai is better left dead? Would
> his being alive alter the setting too much? But again, where are the priests
> of the Adurian Empire and the Hand of Azrai getting their spells if Azrai is
> totally extinct?

My favorite version is that the Cold Rider is a fragment of Azrai. Azrai
was too proud to even consider that he might be in danger from the other
gods, and the fact that he might actually be KILLED never even began to
have to slightest inkling of the possibility of crossing his mind. He
didn't even realize his peril until it was too late (and the other gods
were relying on this). However, one of the reasons he was able to attain
so much power was because of his connection to the Shadow World, and he
used this connection at the last moment to try to escape. However, he only
managed to withdraw a small portion before he was killed. The rest of his
godly corpus went splat, and managed to form not only 2 gods, but also
numerous Awnsheighlein.

So now, there is a tiny fregment of Azrai, wandering around the Shadow
World in the form that Azrai took when he visited the Shadow World. But,
that fragment HAS AMNESIA. The Cold Rider DOESN'T KNOW that he's Azrai,
doesn't know WHAT he is, and doesn't know how to cross into the material
world. Naturally, information is pretty hard to come by in the Shadow
World, and Ruornil is doing everything he CAN to keep the Cold Rider from
learning that he is Azrai.

Of course, another interesting theory is that the Cold Rider is Azrai, but
that Azrai is no longer alive. But he's not dead either. In fact, he's
become the first UNDEAD GOD.



Mark VanderMeulen
vander+@pitt.edu

[brandes]

>So now, there is a tiny fregment of Azrai, wandering around the Shadow
>World in the form that Azrai took when he visited the Shadow World. But,
>that fragment HAS AMNESIA. The Cold Rider DOESN'T KNOW that he's Azrai,
>doesn't know WHAT he is, and doesn't know how to cross into the material
>world. Naturally, information is pretty hard to come by in the Shadow
>World, and Ruornil is doing everything he CAN to keep the Cold Rider from
>learning that he is Azrai.
>
>Of course, another interesting theory is that the Cold Rider is Azrai, but
>that Azrai is no longer alive. But he's not dead either. In fact, he's
>become the first UNDEAD GOD.


Actually, Azrai would only be the first Undead god in Birthright. Outside
of BR, Orcus was an evil god of some description who was destroyed and
brought back as Tenebrous and, later, Primus (IIRC).

Brandes

[Alexander MacLeod]

>Actually, Azrai would only be the first Undead god in Birthright.
Outside
>of BR, Orcus was an evil god of some description who was destroyed and
>brought back as Tenebrous and, later, Primus (IIRC).

Orcus/Tenebrous was the first mentioned in game material, but
Azrai/Cold Rider would be the first cronologically speaking.

Alexander "the Rjurik Necromancer"
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

[Gary V. Foss]

DKEvermore@aol.com wrote:

> Perhaps Azrai was "reduced", not destroyed. He was after all powerful enough
> to kill 7 other gods. I know that's not precisely how it is stated, but I
> think if there could be a posthumous trial against Azrai for this, he would
> be convicted of murdering 7 gods.
>
> Sure they hurt him back. BOOM. ouch. I don't even think he necessarily
> needs to "recover" all his old bloodline. It might just be easier to build
> himself up again.
>
> I see the Cold Rider of the Shadow World as a manifestation of Azrai himself.
> If you really want to scare the players, note that he has control of an
> ENTIRE WORLD about the same size of Cerilia. When he begins to reach through
> the veil into Cerilia again.... well I wonder if the new gods would have even
> have a chance. But that's why there are great artifacts and PCs! :)
>
> -DKE

Here's a thought: He has amnesia. He's big, bad Azrai (substantially
diminished) but he can't remember that fact, so he's running around searching for
things to regain his memory and begin taking over Aebrynis again....

Gary

[JNeighb934@aol.co]

In a message dated 04/06/99 14:17:52 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
jlail@foothills.net writes:

>

Who is Carrie Bebris and what is On Hallowed Ground?
Also, does the Player's Secrets of Medoere state exactly when Medoere gained
its independence from Diemed?

[darkstar]

JNeighb934@aol.com wrote:
> Also, does the Player's Secrets of Medoere state exactly when Medoere gained
> its independence from Diemed?

543 MR
- --
Ian Hoskins

e-Mail: hoss@box.net.au
Homepage: http://www.chariot.net.au/~hoss

ICQ: 2938300 AIM: IHoskins

[Mark A Vandermeulen]

On Wed, 7 Apr 1999 JNeighb934@aol.com wrote:

> Who is Carrie Bebris and what is On Hallowed Ground?

Carrie Bebris is a TSR staffer (now freelancer) who has contributed both
writing and editing to the BR world. Her latest contribution was the
"Shadow World Trilogy" of combination sourcebook/adventures that was
eventually slated to be published the year Wizards took over TSR and froze
all new releases. Needless to say, neither the trilogy nor the
much-anticipated "Book of Regency" (which, according to author Ed Stark
was not only writen and edited, but in fact camera-ready and virtually out
the door to the printers when the freeze came) have yet seen the light of
day.

And yet somehow, we remain hopeful.

Mark VanderMeulen
vander+@pitt.edu

[JNeighb934@aol.co]

In a message dated 04/07/99 10:43:05 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
vander+@pitt.edu writes:

[Mark A Vandermeulen]

On Wed, 7 Apr 1999 JNeighb934@aol.com wrote:

>

[Bob Cauthron]

> On Wed, 7 Apr 1999 JNeighb934@aol.com wrote:
>
> >

[Jim Cooper]

JNeighb934@aol.com wrote:
> Who is Carrie Bebris and

GAAAAAAHHHHH!!!!

You've never heard of the Divine and Supremely Beautiful Carrie
Bebris?!? Are you sure you play Birthright?!? Look in the credits of
many of the BR books, she is usual in there somewhere ...

Cheers,
Darren "Who will someday erect a web-shrine in Her Name!"

[CBebris@aol.co]

>JNeighb934@aol.com wrote:
>> Who is Carrie Bebris and

>GAAAAAAHHHHH!!!!

>You've never heard of the Divine and Supremely Beautiful Carrie
>Bebris?!? Are you sure you play Birthright?!? Look in the credits of
>many of the BR books, she is usual in there somewhere ...

>Cheers,
>Darren "Who will someday erect a web-shrine in Her Name!"

No shrine necessary, Darren, but I can see it's been WAY too long since I
posted to this list :)

I confess, I haven't been following this thread closely, and I'm having
trouble accessing the archives, so I'm not sure how I became a subject of
discussion. Anyone care to fill me in?

Carrie

[CBebris@aol.co]

> > I can see it's been WAY too long since I posted to this list :)

> You and Ed both..

Don't take it personally :) I'm just not online much these days. But I have
been enjoying the discussions on this list--it's nice to be part of a
community that loves BR as much as I do!

> Azrai was mentioned as still being alive. Then someone pointed out that
you said
> that Azrai was dead.

You know, this is the second time such a statement has been attributed to me,
and I cannot for the life of me recall having uttered it. Maybe I'm just
getting old :) But the current status of Azrai is something I (and the rest
of the BR team) always tried to be ambiguous about, so it surprises me that I
would have come right out and said something like this. Perhaps it was my
Shadow World double? ;)

> We were going to erect a shrine because we didn't know if you
> and Ed were dead yet.

LOL!
No, just overworked. But rest assured, even though we're both focusing on
other projects right now, BR remains very close to our hearts. I wouldn't
still be subscribing to this list if that weren't true. But it sounds like I
need to upgrade from lurker status :)

Carrie