Nature of Magic: Is this logica

[Craig Dalrymple]

- -----Original Message-----
From: Olesens
To: BR List
Date: Tuesday, February 23, 1999 4:38 PM
Subject: [BIRTHRIGHT] - Nature of Magic: Is this logical?


>My question: Would it be logical to allow a mage from another plane to
>cast only lesser magic? Note that my reason/explanation for not
>allowing all spells is that Cerilian wizards "mine the mebhaighl" while
>other wizards get it from the land (DS) or the god of magic (FR). Would
>it make sense if I said that the Shadow World screens off True Magic
>from the "conduit" of magical power the off-world mage draws from his
>homeworld?
>


I would say that mages from other planes should have full access to
the magics they already had. Here are my reasons:

1. Their magics are different, as you said. Their source is different,
everything about it is different save for the result. I would even say
that their VSM components are all different mostly. This would
therefore
limit any such planehopping wizard to casting only the spells in
his travelling book. Any future spells would either have to come
through
research, or converting to "Cerilian" spells. The process of doing
this might cause him to "forget" the old style and become normal
lesser magic casting wizard, which begs the question "why do this?"

2. The Lost, or the 13 servants of Azrai, or whomever they are all learned
magic stright from the deity himself. They existed BEFORE bloodlines.
So did non blooded elven wizards. Obviously there is a way for any
common man to mine the magics of this world; the resident humans of
Cerilia have not discovered this breakthrough though. (now wouldn't
that make for a campaign side story??). As such, any wizard who
already knows how to mine the mebhaighl of his own world would
do so out of instinct even on Cerilia. This assumes that all worlds
have their own version of mebhaighl, but that's not too much of a
stretch, especially in Dark Sun.

[darkstar]

Craig Dalrymple wrote:

>
> 2. The Lost, or the 13 servants of Azrai, or whomever they are all learned
> magic stright from the deity himself. They existed BEFORE bloodlines.
> So did non blooded elven wizards. Obviously there is a way for any
> common man to mine the magics of this world; the resident humans of
> Cerilia have not discovered this breakthrough though. (now wouldn't
> that make for a campaign side story??). As such, any wizard who
> already knows how to mine the mebhaighl of his own world would
> do so out of instinct even on Cerilia. This assumes that all worlds
> have their own version of mebhaighl, but that's not too much of a
> stretch, especially in Dark Sun.

I have always thought that the Lost were able to cast magic because
Azrai gave them part of his power (ie gave them a bloodline). This
enabled them to access the power of true magic. If there had been a way
to cast true magic without bloodlines then it would have been discovered
by now. After all, there were a lot of lesser mages around experimenting
with new ways of casting magic. If it had been possibly for a commoner
to cast true magic then it would have already been found. This means
that it isn't possible and any none Cerillian wizard who shows up, can't
cast any spells not normally allowed to magicians.
Actually I personally wouldn't allow a foriegn wizard to cast any spells
at all, at least not until he had spent some time on Aebrynis and
learned how magicians cast their spells.

- --
Ian Hoskins

e-Mail: hoss@box.net.au
Homepage: http://www.box.net.au/~hoss

ICQ: 2938300 AIM: IHoskins

[Daniel McSorley]

From: Craig Dalrymple
>I would say that mages from other planes should have full access to
>the magics they already had. Here are my reasons:
>
>1. Their magics are different, as you said. Their source is different,
> everything about it is different save for the result. I would even say
> that their VSM components are all different mostly. This would
>therefore
> limit any such planehopping wizard to casting only the spells in
> his travelling book. Any future spells would either have to come
>through
> research, or converting to "Cerilian" spells. The process of doing
> this might cause him to "forget" the old style and become normal
> lesser magic casting wizard, which begs the question "why do this?"
>
If the source of his magic is extraplanar, I would rule it cut off by the
Shadow World while he was on Cerilia.

>2. The Lost, or the 13 servants of Azrai, or whomever they are all learned
> magic stright from the deity himself. They existed BEFORE bloodlines.
> So did non blooded elven wizards. Obviously there is a way for any
> common man to mine the magics of this world; the resident humans of
> Cerilia have not discovered this breakthrough though. (now wouldn't
> that make for a campaign side story??). As such, any wizard who
> already knows how to mine the mebhaighl of his own world would
> do so out of instinct even on Cerilia. This assumes that all worlds
> have their own version of mebhaighl, but that's not too much of a
> stretch, especially in Dark Sun.
>
The Lost received some of Azrai's power into themselves, they were the
first blooded people, if you ask me.
The elves have a link to the land already, the same as the dragons,
giants (IMC), and gods. The blooded get this connection from their godly
heritage. The elves didn't need to get it, they _had_ it.

I would say any non-Cerilian wizard could be a magician at best.

Daniel McSorley- mcsorley.1@osu.edu
http://www.cis.ohio-state.edu/~mcsorley/

[Craig Dalrymple]

- -----Original Message-----
From: darkstar
>I have always thought that the Lost were able to cast magic because
>Azrai gave them part of his power (ie gave them a bloodline). This
>enabled them to access the power of true magic

Everyone seems to assume that the Lost were given a bloodline by
Azrai. Though this is a popular notion, it is not necessarily the truth,
though it can be for your worlds. This leaves open the door that they
were NOT blooded. Heck if you look in the Magian's description, he
was already a lich before coming to the continent of Cerilia and
stealing a bloodline. If necessary I will quote this after work today ;)

Thus via the Magian, we know that the lost were NOT blooded.
This implies that he just knew how to cast the true magic, and that Azrai
(remember he's the god of Pride, in himself) would never be highly likely to
just give somebody a shot of deific energy IMHO.

>If there had been a way
>to cast true magic without bloodlines then it would have been discovered
>by now.

The Elves found a way. To the eyes of man the elves and their magics are
mysterious, so they must come from some greater link to the land that the
elves have and man does not. I treat this as the humans superstitions. Magic
has replaced science IMC. Someday a human wizard without a bloodline will
discover how to cast true magic. He will overcome the mental block that all
non-blooded wizards have. This will essentially cause a Renisance in the
world for magic. I never inted to let this happen as I like the rugged magic
system in use, but it seems a natural path to me.


Craig

[Mark A Vandermeulen]

On Tue, 23 Feb 1999, Olesens wrote:

> My question: Would it be logical to allow a mage from another plane to
> cast only lesser magic? Note that my reason/explanation for not
> allowing all spells is that Cerilian wizards "mine the mebhaighl" while
> other wizards get it from the land (DS) or the god of magic (FR). Would
> it make sense if I said that the Shadow World screens off True Magic
> from the "conduit" of magical power the off-world mage draws from his
> homeworld?

That is exactly what I would do. Lesser magic is the magic that can be
cast without the godly connection to the mebheighl. Actually, I would
probably give Elminster a roll for a "wild effect" of some kind each time
he tried to cast one of his "lesser magic" spells he has memorized until
he gets the hang of handling mebheighl-driven spells, which probably
function in subtly different ways than the well-behaved Weave. Over time
he would get over this (perhaps an INT-4 check each time he casts the
spell; if successful, he can cast that spell w/o problem next time). But
he would NEVER be able to cast greater magic unless he somehow aquired a
bloodline. And even then I would probably make him reroll for
chance-to-learn his spells, because greater magic is even more different
from Faerun-style magic than lesser magic is.

That said, I DON'T know if your "Shadow World-screening" idea is really
necessary. If that is how inter-planar magic casting occurs in your
conception of the multiverse, that's fine, and sound like it's probably
logically consistent to me. However, I would simply say that the Weave on
Faerun is a greatly "tamed-down" version of mebheighl that exists on that
sphere, that Mystara (or whoever) tamed it so that mere mortals could use
it automatically (or nearly automatically). In Cerilia, the mebheighl is
much less well-behaved, much harder to handle. After all, Aebrynnis has
had at least two earth-shattering events happen in its past. Not only
Deismaar, when the gods died and the earth may have absorbed at least some
of their "godstuff", but there's also that ancient cataclism that
supposedly sundered the Shadow World off from the prime material.

Hope it helps.

Mark VanderMeulen
vander+@pitt.edu

[Mark A Vandermeulen]

On Wed, 24 Feb 1999, Craig Dalrymple wrote:

> Thus via the Magian, we know that the lost were NOT blooded.
> This implies that he just knew how to cast the true magic, and that Azrai
> (remember he's the god of Pride, in himself) would never be highly likely to
> just give somebody a shot of deific energy IMHO.

Well, the obvious counter to this is that Azrai granted some of his
followers bloodlines for "bragging rights." Sort of "my followers are more
powerful than your followers" kind of thing. Or perhaps Vorynn, who was
also a god of magic, afterall, had already done something like this for
his followers, and Azrai was just not willing to be outdone.

(Still, your arguments are sound, and if that's the way you wish to play
it, I have no problems. I'd be perfectly willing to play in such a game,
but if I'm DM, I'll play it the way I like.)

Mark VanderMeulen
vander+@pitt.edu

[the Falcon]

> If the source of his magic is extraplanar, I would rule it cut off by the
> Shadow World while he was on Cerilia.

A question related to that topic:

How "easy" is access to the Ephereal Plane and the Astral Plane from
Cerilia?

[darkstar]

the Falcon wrote:
>
> > If the source of his magic is extraplanar, I would rule it cut off by the
> > Shadow World while he was on Cerilia.
>
> A question related to that topic:
>
> How "easy" is access to the Ephereal Plane and the Astral Plane from
> Cerilia?
>
Well in the Outer Plane accessory I am working on for Birthright
(http://members.xoom.com/ihoskins/book/) access to the Etheral plane is
almost impossible, while access to the Astral Plane is normal. That is
only one person view though.

- --
Ian Hoskins

e-Mail: hoss@box.net.au
Homepage: http://www.box.net.au/~hoss

ICQ: 2938300 AIM: IHoskins

[the Falcon]

> Well in the Outer Plane accessory I am working on for Birthright
> (http://members.xoom.com/ihoskins/book/) access to the Etheral plane is
> almost impossible, while access to the Astral Plane is normal. That is
> only one person view though.

So then what would an _oil_of_etherealness_ do in Cerilia? What about
_armor_of_etherealness_?

[darkstar]

the Falcon wrote:

>
> So then what would an _oil_of_etherealness_ do in Cerilia? What about
> _armor_of_etherealness_?
>
Either they don't work, or they give you access to the shadow world so
all those nice monsters there can have a bite at you...

Actually what I meant by impossible to access was that there were no
portals to the Etheral Plane from Aebrynis or anything like that. I am
going to make it a sort of dream-like world of ghosts that exists part
way between Aebrynis and the Shadow world. It will also act as a barrier
between the two planes, to prevent all the undead wandering across. Of
course in some places the Etheral plane is especially thin or weak and
the distance between the real world and the shadow world become a lot
closer allowing undead to wander across at will.

I am still working on the details though....
- --
Ian Hoskins

e-Mail: hoss@box.net.au
Homepage: http://www.box.net.au/~hoss

ICQ: 2938300 AIM: IHoskins

[Pieter Sleijpen]

::Evil Grin::

I am not exactly a FR expert, but doesn't Elminster already has got a
bloodline? :-)

Pieter Sleijpen

[the Falcon]

> I am not exactly a FR expert, but doesn't Elminster already has got a
> bloodline? :-)

mmm... He conceivably could have (well, something like it, anyways) since
he is one of the Chosen of Mystra and all. Invested with Her power;
special abilities and immunities and stuff like that...

[Pieter Sleijpen]

darkstar wrote:
>
> the Falcon wrote:
> >
> > > If the source of his magic is extraplanar, I would rule it cut off by the
> > > Shadow World while he was on Cerilia.
> >
> > A question related to that topic:
> >
> > How "easy" is access to the Ephereal Plane and the Astral Plane from
> > Cerilia?
> >
> Well in the Outer Plane accessory I am working on for Birthright
> (http://members.xoom.com/ihoskins/book/) access to the Etheral plane is
> almost impossible, while access to the Astral Plane is normal. That is
> only one person view though.

As far as I can see, the official cannon on the Ethereal Plane and
Cerilia is that the Shadow World actually is in the place of the Border
Ethereal (or even is the border ethereal). Every spell and/or item that
places a character in the Ethereal will place him in the Shadow World
instead. The fear my players have for the Shadow World (mainly due to
stories) actually makes sure that the priest of Avani hardly ever uses
the spell to go to the Ethereal plane for several rounds.

Pieter Sleijpen

[Kenneth Gauck]

The former gets you drunk, the latter was worn by that famous emperor
reputed to have gone naked.

>
>So then what would an _oil_of_etherealness_ do in Cerilia? What about
>_armor_of_etherealness_?
>

[brandes]

- -----Original Message-----
From: Pieter Sleijpen
To: birthright@mpgn.com
Date: Friday, February 26, 1999 10:41 AM
Subject: Re: [BIRTHRIGHT] - Nature of Magic: Is this logical?


>::Evil Grin::
>
>I am not exactly a FR expert, but doesn't Elminster already has got a
>bloodline? :-)
>
>Pieter Sleijpen
>
Yeah, he's a Chosen Of Mystra. That's a lot like being a True bloodline,
except that Mystra wouldn't be able to save him on Cerilia, having no
influence there.
On the other hand, Elminster would get to be real good friends with Ruornil,
since he makes Ruornil's avatar look like a wuss. Course, he does that on
Faerun too, at least where most demigods are concerned.
Brandes

[Ben]

>Yeah, he's a Chosen Of Mystra. That's a lot like being a True bloodline,
>except that Mystra wouldn't be able to save him on Cerilia, having no
>influence there.
>On the other hand, Elminster would get to be real good friends with
Ruornil,
>since he makes Ruornil's avatar look like a wuss. Course, he does that on
>Faerun too, at least where most demigods are concerned.
>Brandes
>


You'll have to excuse my ignorance here. (I never cared for AD&D before
BR came out, and I know less than jack about FR.)
Why doesn't Elminster just ascend to godhood?


Ben

[Olesens]

brandes wrote:

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Pieter Sleijpen
> To: birthright@mpgn.com
> Date: Friday, February 26, 1999 10:41 AM
> Subject: Re: [BIRTHRIGHT] - Nature of Magic: Is this logical?
>
> >::Evil Grin::
> >
> >I am not exactly a FR expert, but doesn't Elminster already has got a
> >bloodline? :-)
> >
> >Pieter Sleijpen
> >
> Yeah, he's a Chosen Of Mystra. That's a lot like being a True bloodline,
> except that Mystra wouldn't be able to save him on Cerilia, having no
> influence there.
> On the other hand, Elminster would get to be real good friends with Ruornil,
> since he makes Ruornil's avatar look like a wuss.

Well not "since" but because they have similar ideals (I assume). But even
Elminster couldn't kill Rounil with spells (since Ruornil can "harmlessly absorb
any wizard spell cast at him").

[brandes]

>>Yeah, he's a Chosen Of Mystra. That's a lot like being a True bloodline,
>>except that Mystra wouldn't be able to save him on Cerilia, having no
>>influence there.
>>On the other hand, Elminster would get to be real good friends with
>Ruornil,
>>since he makes Ruornil's avatar look like a wuss. Course, he does that on
>>Faerun too, at least where most demigods are concerned.
>>Brandes
>>
>
>
> You'll have to excuse my ignorance here. (I never cared for AD&D before
>BR came out, and I know less than jack about FR.)
> Why doesn't Elminster just ascend to godhood?
>
>
>Ben

Okay, this is hopelessly off-topic for a Birthright mailing list, but
Elminster doesn't ascend to godhood because:
A. Mystra doesn't need any more allied gods; she needs mortals. Since
apotheosis requires a divine sponsor, Elminster would have to gain her
approval first.
B. Ascension requires something like 40th level in the Realms. The Old
Mage is 29th; the highest level mage that I know of in the Realms is 32nd (a
lich in Tethyr or some such).
C. He doesn't want to; he has enough responsibilities already.
Any questions?

Brandes

[the Falcon]

So IYC, people _drink_ magical oils? Interesting... Great laxatives,
of course. :)

> The former gets you drunk, the latter was worn by that famous emperor
> reputed to have gone naked.
> >
> >So then what would an _oil_of_etherealness_ do in Cerilia? What about
> >_armor_of_etherealness_?

[the Falcon]

> B. Ascension requires something like 40th level in the Realms. The Old
> Mage is 29th; the highest level mage that I know of in the Realms is 32nd (a
> lich in Tethyr or some such).

Actually, it requires 25th level, one ability scores of at least 21
(IIRC), and another one of at least 19. Also, you'll need the support of
an already existin god of at least lesser stature and the possession of an
artifact. And then finally, you'll need to come up with some special rite
in which you will sacrife about all of your wordly possessions. And even
should you get completely through this ordeal, Ao (the Overlord of the
Realms) might just reject your polite request and turn you into something
else entirely. That's a really short summary of it, anyways.

> C. He doesn't want to; he has enough responsibilities already.

Indeed, who needs another demi-god? And the demi-god of what, anyways?
The only thing that becomin a demi-god would get Elminster, is conflict
with other gods.

- the Falcon