Kenneth Gauck
02-22-1999, 05:42 AM
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Samwise,
This question of ends and means is not, in fact, a nullity. Let us =
consider three kinds of means:
1) means that are themselves worthy, that is they do not need =
justification. This is the characterization of most actions, and =
several that you use in your argument.=20
>Lawful Good people feel that the end of having a safe, comfortable =
society
>for everyone justifies passing laws to restrict individuals freedoms =
and to
>protect those unable to protect themselves.
Actually, Lawful Good characters consider such things as laws and =
portections to be goods unto themselves and need no special =
justification. =20
2) means justified by the ends are means that the the actors know are =
wrong, but must be done anyway because a greater good is at stake. Here =
is a case from a Chaotic Good perspective. Yousef min Nanna is an =
official in Sendoure. The regent is allied with the nasty Ghouda=EFa =
Coster. The official, Yousef min Nanna decides to secretly oppose his =
liege's ally for the good of the people. As an official of the regent, =
min Nanna is clearly a supporter of the regiem, yet he defies his lord, =
violates his office, doubtlessly disobeys his orders, and possibly =
diverts funds. His ends are what he considers the welfare of the people =
of Sendoure. His means are certainly dishonest, possibly treasonous. =
In min Nanna's mind, the end justifies the means.
3) The third kind of means are those that are not justified by the ends. =
Let is continue to imagine Yousef min Nanna. Perhaps his family is in =
dept. Despite his Chaotic Good alignment, min Nanna may consider =
stealing to pay his family's depts to be insuffiencent for such a =
violation. After all, if discovered he would be willing to die a =
patriot, but not a thief. =20
Just because someone is willing to allow the ends to justify some means, =
does not mean they allow good ends to justify any behavior they can =
imagine, or even any behavior they may find tempting. The whole point =
of this line of thinking is that there is a distinction between means. =
Some means are themselves worthy, some are wrong but can be justified, =
some are wrong and are not justifiable. The more means someone is =
willing to accept as we move towards evil the closer they are in =
alignment to evil. The more they accept chaotic acts the closer they =
are to chaotic in alignment.
Kenneth Gauck
c558382@earthlink.net
- -----Original Message-----
From: Samuel Weiss
To: birthright@MPGN.COM
Date: Sunday, February 21, 1999 7:35 PM
Subject: Re: [BIRTHRIGHT] - Neutral Alignment
>If you examine it closely, you will discover that "The Ends Justify the
>Means" is a null value statement, except when used accusatoriluy =
against
>someone who you disagree with.
>Everyone and every group believes that the ends they seek justify the =
means
>they use. They just have both different ends and different means.
>Lawful Good people feel that the end of having a safe, comfortable =
society
>for everyone justifies passing laws to restrict individuals freedoms =
and to
>protect those unable to protect themselves.
>Lawful Evil people feel the end of a society where everyone knows their
>place (and they are on top of course) justifies laws that repress =
people and
>deny individual rights, even that of life.
>And so on through the alignmnets.
>"The Ends Jusitfy the Means" means nothing more than "I am right and =
you are
>wrong".
>
>Samwise
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Samwise,
This question of ends and means is not, in fact, a nullity. =
Let us=20
consider three kinds of means:
1) means that are themselves worthy, that is they do not need=20
justification. This is the characterization of most actions, and =
several=20
that you use in your argument.
>Lawful Good people feel that the end of =
having a=20
safe, comfortable society>for everyone justifies passing laws to =
restrict=20
individuals freedoms and to>protect those unable to protect=20
themselves.
Actually, Lawful Good characters consider such things as laws and=20
portections to be goods unto themselves and need no special =
justification. =20
2) means justified by the ends are means =
that the=20
the actors know are wrong, but must be done anyway because a greater =
good is at=20
stake. Here is a case from a Chaotic Good perspective. =
Yousef min=20
Nanna is an official in Sendoure. The regent is allied with the =
nasty=20
Ghouda=EFa Coster. The official, Yousef min =
Nanna decides=20
to secretly oppose his liege's ally for the good of the people. As =
an=20
official of the regent, min Nanna is clearly a supporter of the regiem, =
yet he=20
defies his lord, violates his office, doubtlessly disobeys his orders, =
and=20
possibly diverts funds. His ends are what he considers the welfare =
of the=20
people of Sendoure. His means are certainly dishonest, possibly=20
treasonous. In min Nanna's mind, the end justifies the =
means.
3) The third kind of means are those that are not justified by the=20
ends. Let is continue to imagine Yousef min Nanna. Perhaps =
his=20
family is in dept. Despite his Chaotic Good alignment, min Nanna =
may=20
consider stealing to pay his family's depts to be insuffiencent for such =
a=20
violation. After all, if discovered he would be willing to die a =
patriot,=20
but not a thief.
Just because someone is willing to allow the ends to justify some =
means,=20
does not mean they allow good ends to justify any behavior they can =
imagine, or=20
even any behavior they may find tempting. The whole point of this =
line of=20
thinking is that there is a distinction between means. Some means =
are=20
themselves worthy, some are wrong but can be justified, some are wrong =
and are=20
not justifiable. The more means someone is willing to accept as we =
move=20
towards evil the closer they are in alignment to evil. The more =
they=20
accept chaotic acts the closer they are to chaotic in alignment.
Kenneth Gauckc558382@earthlink.net
-----Original Message-----From: =
Samuel Weiss=20
<samwise1@email.msn.com>=
To: birthright@MPGN.COM <birthright@MPGN.COM>Date: =
Sunday,=20
February 21, 1999 7:35 PMSubject: Re: [BIRTHRIGHT] - Neutral=20
Alignment>If you examine it closely, you will =
discover=20
that "The Ends Justify the>Means" is a null value =
statement,=20
except when used accusatoriluy against>someone who you disagree=20
with.>Everyone and every group believes that the ends they seek =
justify=20
the means>they use. They just have both different ends and =
different=20
means.>Lawful Good people feel that the end of having a safe, =
comfortable=20
society>for everyone justifies passing laws to restrict =
individuals=20
freedoms and to>protect those unable to protect =
themselves.>Lawful=20
Evil people feel the end of a society where everyone knows =
their>place=20
(and they are on top of course) justifies laws that repress people=20
and>deny individual rights, even that of life.>And so on =
through=20
the alignmnets.>"The Ends Jusitfy the Means" means =
nothing more=20
than "I am right and you=20
are>wrong".>>Samwise
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Samwise,
This question of ends and means is not, in fact, a nullity. Let us =
consider three kinds of means:
1) means that are themselves worthy, that is they do not need =
justification. This is the characterization of most actions, and =
several that you use in your argument.=20
>Lawful Good people feel that the end of having a safe, comfortable =
society
>for everyone justifies passing laws to restrict individuals freedoms =
and to
>protect those unable to protect themselves.
Actually, Lawful Good characters consider such things as laws and =
portections to be goods unto themselves and need no special =
justification. =20
2) means justified by the ends are means that the the actors know are =
wrong, but must be done anyway because a greater good is at stake. Here =
is a case from a Chaotic Good perspective. Yousef min Nanna is an =
official in Sendoure. The regent is allied with the nasty Ghouda=EFa =
Coster. The official, Yousef min Nanna decides to secretly oppose his =
liege's ally for the good of the people. As an official of the regent, =
min Nanna is clearly a supporter of the regiem, yet he defies his lord, =
violates his office, doubtlessly disobeys his orders, and possibly =
diverts funds. His ends are what he considers the welfare of the people =
of Sendoure. His means are certainly dishonest, possibly treasonous. =
In min Nanna's mind, the end justifies the means.
3) The third kind of means are those that are not justified by the ends. =
Let is continue to imagine Yousef min Nanna. Perhaps his family is in =
dept. Despite his Chaotic Good alignment, min Nanna may consider =
stealing to pay his family's depts to be insuffiencent for such a =
violation. After all, if discovered he would be willing to die a =
patriot, but not a thief. =20
Just because someone is willing to allow the ends to justify some means, =
does not mean they allow good ends to justify any behavior they can =
imagine, or even any behavior they may find tempting. The whole point =
of this line of thinking is that there is a distinction between means. =
Some means are themselves worthy, some are wrong but can be justified, =
some are wrong and are not justifiable. The more means someone is =
willing to accept as we move towards evil the closer they are in =
alignment to evil. The more they accept chaotic acts the closer they =
are to chaotic in alignment.
Kenneth Gauck
c558382@earthlink.net
- -----Original Message-----
From: Samuel Weiss
To: birthright@MPGN.COM
Date: Sunday, February 21, 1999 7:35 PM
Subject: Re: [BIRTHRIGHT] - Neutral Alignment
>If you examine it closely, you will discover that "The Ends Justify the
>Means" is a null value statement, except when used accusatoriluy =
against
>someone who you disagree with.
>Everyone and every group believes that the ends they seek justify the =
means
>they use. They just have both different ends and different means.
>Lawful Good people feel that the end of having a safe, comfortable =
society
>for everyone justifies passing laws to restrict individuals freedoms =
and to
>protect those unable to protect themselves.
>Lawful Evil people feel the end of a society where everyone knows their
>place (and they are on top of course) justifies laws that repress =
people and
>deny individual rights, even that of life.
>And so on through the alignmnets.
>"The Ends Jusitfy the Means" means nothing more than "I am right and =
you are
>wrong".
>
>Samwise
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charset="iso-8859-1"
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Samwise,
This question of ends and means is not, in fact, a nullity. =
Let us=20
consider three kinds of means:
1) means that are themselves worthy, that is they do not need=20
justification. This is the characterization of most actions, and =
several=20
that you use in your argument.
>Lawful Good people feel that the end of =
having a=20
safe, comfortable society>for everyone justifies passing laws to =
restrict=20
individuals freedoms and to>protect those unable to protect=20
themselves.
Actually, Lawful Good characters consider such things as laws and=20
portections to be goods unto themselves and need no special =
justification. =20
2) means justified by the ends are means =
that the=20
the actors know are wrong, but must be done anyway because a greater =
good is at=20
stake. Here is a case from a Chaotic Good perspective. =
Yousef min=20
Nanna is an official in Sendoure. The regent is allied with the =
nasty=20
Ghouda=EFa Coster. The official, Yousef min =
Nanna decides=20
to secretly oppose his liege's ally for the good of the people. As =
an=20
official of the regent, min Nanna is clearly a supporter of the regiem, =
yet he=20
defies his lord, violates his office, doubtlessly disobeys his orders, =
and=20
possibly diverts funds. His ends are what he considers the welfare =
of the=20
people of Sendoure. His means are certainly dishonest, possibly=20
treasonous. In min Nanna's mind, the end justifies the =
means.
3) The third kind of means are those that are not justified by the=20
ends. Let is continue to imagine Yousef min Nanna. Perhaps =
his=20
family is in dept. Despite his Chaotic Good alignment, min Nanna =
may=20
consider stealing to pay his family's depts to be insuffiencent for such =
a=20
violation. After all, if discovered he would be willing to die a =
patriot,=20
but not a thief.
Just because someone is willing to allow the ends to justify some =
means,=20
does not mean they allow good ends to justify any behavior they can =
imagine, or=20
even any behavior they may find tempting. The whole point of this =
line of=20
thinking is that there is a distinction between means. Some means =
are=20
themselves worthy, some are wrong but can be justified, some are wrong =
and are=20
not justifiable. The more means someone is willing to accept as we =
move=20
towards evil the closer they are in alignment to evil. The more =
they=20
accept chaotic acts the closer they are to chaotic in alignment.
Kenneth Gauckc558382@earthlink.net
-----Original Message-----From: =
Samuel Weiss=20
<samwise1@email.msn.com>=
To: birthright@MPGN.COM <birthright@MPGN.COM>Date: =
Sunday,=20
February 21, 1999 7:35 PMSubject: Re: [BIRTHRIGHT] - Neutral=20
Alignment>If you examine it closely, you will =
discover=20
that "The Ends Justify the>Means" is a null value =
statement,=20
except when used accusatoriluy against>someone who you disagree=20
with.>Everyone and every group believes that the ends they seek =
justify=20
the means>they use. They just have both different ends and =
different=20
means.>Lawful Good people feel that the end of having a safe, =
comfortable=20
society>for everyone justifies passing laws to restrict =
individuals=20
freedoms and to>protect those unable to protect =
themselves.>Lawful=20
Evil people feel the end of a society where everyone knows =
their>place=20
(and they are on top of course) justifies laws that repress people=20
and>deny individual rights, even that of life.>And so on =
through=20
the alignmnets.>"The Ends Jusitfy the Means" means =
nothing more=20
than "I am right and you=20
are>wrong".>>Samwise
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