Birthright Diseases

[geeman]

Here's a little PDF that can be used as an adjunct to the diseases section of the DMG for the Birthright setting. It features diseases that afflict scions and the affects of the diseases upon their bloodlines, as well as diseases for the setting. This is meant as an expansion for an awnshegh I've been working on, Kettil the Leech, who will have begun life as a healer before... well, you know, stuff happens.... It could, however, be used without that character to fill out what is a pretty thin section of the D&D rules.

Comments are welcome.

Gary

Old version removed. Updated PDF is below.

[robbybr]

Nice! Something highly needed! Good job!

Robby

[Benjamin]

Quite interesting - diseases that only affect scions. I like this.

The only disease I have a problem with is Wound Corruption. The idea that your bloodline derivation changes to Azrai is a bit overpowered, I think. After all, the act of bloodtheft is needed typically to cause this change, and then there are a lot of factors involved.

I would suggest that the Wound Corruption, instead of changing your bloodline, causes bloodline losses. Maybe paralysis, too. For instance, 1d4 bloodline points lost for major, 2d4 for great and 4d4 for true, plus paralysis for same number of rounds. Perhaps the affected flesh turns black and putrid.

Just an idea.

[geeman]

At 09:58 PM 11/28/2004 +0100, Benjamin wrote:



>Quite interesting - diseases that only affect scions. I like this.The

>only disease I have a problem with is Wound Corruption. The idea that

>your bloodline derivation changes to Azrai is a bit overpowered, I

>think. After all, the act of bloodtheft is needed typically to cause this

>change, and then there are a lot of factors involved.I would suggest that

>the Wound Corruption, instead of changing your bloodline, causes bloodline

>losses. Maybe paralysis, too. For instance, 1d4 bloodline points lost

>for major, 2d4 for great and 4d4 for true, plus paralysis for same number

>of rounds. Perhaps the affected flesh turns black and putrid.Just an idea.



Yeah, that`s the one I figured would probably prove the most

contentious. Not only is it a pretty dramatic effect, it`s technically a

poisoning not a disease. (One could make an argument that ichor leeches

aren`t really a disease either, I guess.) On the whole it`s the game

mechanic that I want to use, and the poisoning game mechanic doesn`t suit

the effect I was going for.



The reason I want to have it change a scions bloodline derivation

temporarily is because I want additional ways to write up awnshegh

origins. In this case it goes directly to at least one past awnshegh I

wrote up a long time ago, the Werespider, whose bloodline is polluted after

being captured and subjected to perverse "experiments" by the Spider. The

idea will possibly feature prominently in the origin of at least one and

maybe two more characters I`ve been working on.



Thematically, I think the wound corruption version of things goes along

with the general theme of temptation, perversion and mutation that Azrai`s

bloodline and original character intimates, particularly as presented in

some of the original materials. In retrospect, however, it should probably

not be as easy as coating a weapon with some blood. Comparatively, it

takes a high level spell invented by the Magian to accomplish that, or an

outright act of bloodtheft on a scion of Azrai. A little tweaking is in

order.... I made a couple of changes to other descriptions, and I like the

symptoms you suggest, so let me brainstorm a bit on this and I`ll post an

updated version of the PDF with a new disease or two and some better rules

for the wound corruption disease.



Gary

[Urban fox]

Perhaps, certain magical spells and hexes would change/drain/corrupt a bloodline. But I’d imagine it would be highly unlikely that a scions bloodline derivation would change permanently without bloodtheft taking place.

Also if bloodsilver weapons can drain bloodline points, cant there be other weapons that are particularly deadly to scions of a certain bloodline.

Um...........oh yeah I'm new so hi. :lol:

[geeman]

At 02:08 PM 11/30/2004 +0100, Urban fox wrote:



>Perhaps, certain magical spells and hexes would change/drain/corrupt a

>bloodline. But I`d imagine it would be highly unlikely that a scions

>bloodline derivation would change permanently without bloodtheft taking

>place.Also if bloodsilver weapons can drain bloodline points, cant there

>be other weapons that are particularly deadly to scions of a certain

>bloodline.Um...........oh yeah I`m new so hi.



Hi backatcha and welcome.



There is a spell to change bloodline derivation called Bloodline Corruption

used by the Magian to alter the bloodline of Qandar the Righteous, turning

him into the Manticore. It`s 9th level and basically performs a kind of

bloodless act of bloodtheft to permanently do the shift. This is

originally in the Blood Enemies text if you have access to it.



In the document above, the change of derivation is temporary, but can be

made permanent if during the period the scion is sick with Wound Corruption

he takes a level as an awnsheghlien--or, I suppose, if one goes through

whatever transformation game mechanic the DM uses. Even though there

aren`t a lot of scions of Azrai with major or greater bloodline strength

running around, and those that do exist aren`t the type of folk who would

likely spill their own blood with a whole lot of zeal, I think just coating

the blade of a weapon with the blood of a scion of Azrai is too easy a

method to inflict the Wound Corruption effect, so I`m thinking there should

be at least an additional cost. Possibilities:



1. An XP, gp and/or RP cost somewhat similar to magic item creation.

2. A drop in bloodline score for the donating scion of Azrai (seems too

much to me for a temporary change.)

3. Lower DC saves.

4. Eliminate major bloodline strength as a potential blood donor, so only

major and true scions of Azrai can use this ability.



Right now I`m leaning towards #1 but considering #4 as well.



As for weapons that are particularly dangerous towards scions with

particular bloodline derivations, I think that`s an interesting

possibility. I presume you mean in regards to bloodtheft, not just in

general, but one could imagine either or both possibility in certain

circumstances. There are magical weapons that are +1 and +3 vs a

particular monster type, for instance. It`s feasible for a type of

"awnsheghlien hunter" type character to envision and then either make or

have made such a weapon that was +1/+3 vs. scions of Azrai. It`s similarly

possible to imagine a weapon with something like a sielshegh gem

incorporated into it (or some other justification) that replicates the

effect of tighmaevril weapons on a scion of some particular derivation.



Gary

[Hrandal]

It might not be too safe, or too smart to have something that acts as bloodsilver versus Azrai tainted blood! Also, it might be bit limited in scope to pick a Bane versus one bloodline.

What you might want is something that acts like the new Wounding rules, but applies to bloodline instead (ie, every succesful attack inflcts one point of ability damage.)

The diseases seem quite cool, certainly wouldn't want to catch any of them.

What about a disease that temporarily gives a commoner bloodline? I'm thinking this would more likely be an Azrai disease, seeing as his specialty is corruption. What if the disease feeds of the body (STR/DEX/CON) to pump the artificial bloodline ever higher? And anyone that bloodthefts them gets infected.

Or a disease that responds to the divine power of healing magic by becoming stronger?

Well, just random thoughts.

Chris

[Urban fox]

Originally posted by geeman@Nov 30 2004, 08:00 PM


Hi backatcha and welcome.



There is a spell to change bloodline derivation called Bloodline Corruption

used by the Magian to alter the bloodline of Qandar the Righteous, turning

him into the Manticore. It`s 9th level and basically performs a kind of

bloodless act of bloodtheft to permanently do the shift. This is

originally in the Blood Enemies text if you have access to it.



In the document above, the change of derivation is temporary, but can be

made permanent if during the period the scion is sick with Wound Corruption

he takes a level as an awnsheghlien--or, I suppose, if one goes through

whatever transformation game mechanic the DM uses. Even though there

aren`t a lot of scions of Azrai with major or greater bloodline strength

running around, and those that do exist aren`t the type of folk who would

likely spill their own blood with a whole lot of zeal, I think just coating

the blade of a weapon with the blood of a scion of Azrai is too easy a

method to inflict the Wound Corruption effect, so I`m thinking there should

be at least an additional cost. Possibilities:



1. An XP, gp and/or RP cost somewhat similar to magic item creation.

2. A drop in bloodline score for the donating scion of Azrai (seems too

much to me for a temporary change.)

3. Lower DC saves.

4. Eliminate major bloodline strength as a potential blood donor, so only

major and true scions of Azrai can use this ability.



Right now I`m leaning towards #1 but considering #4 as well.



As for weapons that are particularly dangerous towards scions with

particular bloodline derivations, I think that`s an interesting

possibility. I presume you mean in regards to bloodtheft, not just in

general, but one could imagine either or both possibility in certain

circumstances. There are magical weapons that are +1 and +3 vs a

particular monster type, for instance. It`s feasible for a type of

"awnsheghlien hunter" type character to envision and then either make or

have made such a weapon that was +1/+3 vs. scions of Azrai. It`s similarly

possible to imagine a weapon with something like a sielshegh gem

incorporated into it (or some other justification) that replicates the

effect of tighmaevril weapons on a scion of some particular derivation.



Gary













Yes that makes sense, only major and true scions of Azrai can use the ability Wound Corruption, but could this power act in reverse, could a Scion of Azrai also be a victim of Wound Corruption? (or purification depending on how you look at it :lol:)

[geeman]

At 12:48 PM 12/1/2004 +0100, Chris wrote:



>What about a disease that temporarily gives a commoner bloodline? I`m

>thinking this would more likely be an Azrai disease, seeing as his

>specialty is corruption. What if the disease feeds of the body

>(STR/DEX/CON) to pump the artificial bloodline ever higher? And anyone

>that bloodthefts them gets infected.Or a disease that responds to the

>divine power of healing magic by becoming stronger?Well, just random thoughts.



Nice. I like it a lot. I think it should "feed" off the character`s

wisdom rather than any of the physical ability scores, since that would be

more in line with the corruption/temptation aspect of Azrai`s bloodline,

and maybe if the character finally succumbs to the disease s/he becomes an

awnshegh. Definitely something to think about. (Of course, it also means

I`ll have to rewrite that introduction to the disease document since it`s

no longer just about the effects of diseases upon scions, but that`s OK.)



I`m picturing this working in a campaign kind of like this: It`s the

Birthright equivalent of rabies. A character who gets this disease will

eventually become a murderous lunatic when his wisdom drops, gaining a

level in the awnshegh character class instead of foaming at the mouth. If

he cannot be cured he must be "put down." It might be the result of a

commoner committing an act of bloodtheft upon a scion of Azrai which in the

original rules didn`t transfer the bloodline.



At 04:50 PM 12/1/2004 +0100, Urban fox wrote:



>[O]nly major and true scions of Azrai can use the ability Wound

>Corruption, but could this power act in reverse, could a Scion of Azrai

>also be a victim of Wound Corruption? (or purification depending on how

>you look at it :lol:)



That`s a possibility. In general, I think this kind of effect should be

reserved for Azrai`s derivation since temptation, corruption, etc. would

appear to have been an aspect of that god`s portfolio. It would be

interesting, however, if one were to use the blood of other scions in order

to fight the disease. Imagine, for instance, a scion who is infected with

wound corruption being bled nearly to death then getting transfusions from

other scions in hopes of ridding his body of the dark humours of Azrai`s

taint. That has an interesting relationship to the setting material as

well as a pretty cool reference to historical medical techniques. That`s

one of the things I was leaning towards when writing up several of the

diseases.



Gary

[Birthright-L]

> I`m picturing this working in a campaign kind of

> like this: It`s the

> Birthright equivalent of rabies. A character who

> gets this disease will

> eventually become a murderous lunatic when his

> wisdom drops, gaining a

> level in the awnshegh character class instead of

> foaming at the mouth. If

> he cannot be cured he must be "put down." It might

> be the result of a

> commoner committing an act of bloodtheft upon a

> scion of Azrai which in the

> original rules didn`t transfer the bloodline.





Interesting. I`m not sure why, but I always assumed

that not everyone knew about the whole bloodtheft

deal. I figured it would be just a myth among the

aristocracy...





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[irdeggman]

This whole divine disease concept just doesn’t set well with me. Scions have a portion of divinity imbued in them. I don’t see why they should be more susceptible to diseases than non-scions. At its simplest scions are semi-divine and those with higher strength being closer to “true divinity”, i.e., true bloodlines are 1 step removed since their formation was real close to how the “new” gods were formed.

Divine beings don’t get sick, they may cause sickness but they don’t get sick.

I can see a logic path for mere mortals rejecting divinity – but this isn’t a disease it more closely resembles an insanity or physical condition (e.g., manifestation of physical/mental problems). As an example I have Type 1 diabetes. This is an auto-immune system condition. I have physical effects due to this, e.g., frequent urination, requirement to take insulin, more susceptible to illness, etc. But it is not a disease.

A similar comparison to scions and their semi-divinity is elves and half-elves. Half-elves share the aspects of elvinity – that is they count as elven for things that matter (e.g., favored enemy, bane effects, etc.). They are not lesser than they were, they are lesser than a full elf.

Specifics:

Should some saving throws be a Wil save instead? For instance the wound corruption one might fit better as a Wil save.

What about the paladins divine health ability does it keep him immune to these diseases, since unlike his ability to remove diseases it specifically affects all types of diseases?

Is the saving throw modified by bloodline strength or score?

For effects that cause a loss of blood abilities it would be more accurate to state that the scion loses the ability to access his blood abilities due to the effects of the disease. Maybe a penalty to access them or something to reflect this instead might fit better mechanically.

Blood Delirium – this just doesn’t make sense to me. Why are scions more susceptible than non-scions? I can see how a non-scion could be affected due to their lack of a bloodline.

Bright Pox – I can see the logic here. Scions are affected differently.

Crimson eye – Only affects scions?

Echo Madness – I don’t understand the connection between the effects of this disease and how a regent loses the ability to spend RP and can lose all accumulated RP. I mean the main underlying effect is deafness and ringing in the ears how does that correlate to the RP effect?

Heartfire – understand the concept of scion rejecting bloodline. But this is not a real disease, more of a reaction issue. Probably best covered by any check made at bloodtheft, similar to checking to see if derivation is changed.

Ice blood – Why would the underlying effect cause the loss of blood abilities?

Ichor Leeches – not a disease. This is a monster and belongs there not as a disease.

King’s lung – Doesn’t affect non-scions but causes a scion to suffer Con damage and bloodline score loss? Back to the issue I have with scions being more susceptible to disease than non-scions. I agree that the effects can be different, but they shouldn’t be more susceptible.

Night fever – see comment on loss of access to blood abilities vice loss of abilities.

Red fever – no comment except the one on why are scions more susceptible than non-scions. Better, IMO to have scions suffer something like this when they are affected by a disease regardless of the cause. What I mean is a list of additional effects that scions have when sick rather than a set of diseases that only affect them.

Shadowsickness – Make halflings and other creatures native to the shadow world. Technically a halfling is a native to the shadow world who has moved. I’d also add those with elven blood being immune to reflect the tie to the Sie in their history.

Wound corruption – this is more like a poison than a disease. Doesn’t belong in the same category. I agree with the other comments that this parallels other mechanics that change bloodline derivation and is not really worthy of its own treatment. What I mean is that adding this cheapens the effects of those other methods.

[geeman]

At 12:41 AM 12/2/2004 +0100, irdeggman wrote:



>Scions have a portion of divinity imbued in them. I don’t see why they

>should be more susceptible to diseases than non-scions. At its simplest

>scions are semi-divine and those with higher strength being closer to

>“true divinity”, i.e., true bloodlines are 1 step removed since their

>formation was real close to how the “new” gods were formed.Divine beings

>don’t get sick, they may cause sickness but they don’t get sick.I can see

>a logic path for mere mortals rejecting divinity * but this isn’t a

>disease it more closely resembles an insanity or physical condition (e.g.,

>manifestation of physical/mental problems). As an example I have Type 1

>diabetes. This is an auto-immune system condition. I have physical

>effects due to this, e.g., frequent urination, requirement to take

>insulin, more susceptible to illness, etc. But it is not a disease.A

>similar comparison to scions and their semi-divinity is elves and

>half-elves. Half-elves share the aspects of elvinity * that is they count

>as elven for things that matter (e.g., favored enemy, bane effects, etc.).

>They are not lesser than they were, they are lesser than a full elf.



Scions should not necessarily be more susceptible to disease. The above

document, however, focuses on scion-based diseases, and how they affect

them. There should probably be a set of general Birthright diseases

(actually there should be more general D&D diseases rather than the rather

paltry set included in the DMG) but for the scope of this project is only

upon particular types of diseases that scions are vulnerable to alone or

that have additional effects on them. In the scope of a Birthright

campaign in which the PCs are often scions a focus on the diseases that

affect those characters is the focus.



I could give you several justifications for allowing bloodline based

disease, but the short answer is simply the one you present above viewed

from the other side of the equation. Scions are mortals who have a portion

of the divine. That divine power is valuable, but because they are

fundamentally mortal there are some drawbacks. Scions are not immune to

disease and their mortal bodies provide an opening for pathogens which the

gods may or may not be vulnerable. The mortality of scions gives the

pathogens a way into the scions` bodies, and once there the effects of

their divine connection makes for a different or additional set of

symptoms. More and more people are finding that the effects of diseases

and drugs on humans based on things like age and gender are more profound

than has been assumed in the health care industry. This could be viewed as

the Birthright specific version of that.



Cerilian elves and half-elves are only immune to natural, non-magical

disease, so in the case of several of the diseases I`d argue that they

could become ill, but I`d reserve that for a case by case basis. This

relates a bit to the issue of paladins` susceptibility (below) since the

elven version is actually less powerful than that of paladins.



When it comes to the technical definition of "disease" for the purpose of

BR, D&D or just in general, I think we can go with a broad one. For all

intents and purposes it really is the game mechanic that we`re talking

about here. Diabetes would probably be better portrayed in some other

method if one were going to do so in D20, since that was the example, but

it is a disease in the common vernacular. Game mechanically, it`d be

better as a sort of disadvantage rather than using the disease

mechanic. When it comes to portraying comparable things in BR, for

instance, there have been lots of discussion on various methods on various

things ranging from particular forms of insanity to different ways of

portraying awnsheghlien--which one could argue is a kind of magical

disorder. Lycanthropy, for instance, has its own rather extensive game

mechanical portrayal. The diseases (or infections) described in this

system just go better with the DMG`s disease mechanic than using some other

function.



I`m not overly-worried about the "disease" label. If the "Disease" section

of the DMG were renamed "Infections" it might be more palatable to the

semantically inclined, and I`d suggest that "infections" is a bit more

accurate to describe both this document and pp 292-3 of the DMG. Mummy

rot, for example, would not appear to really be a disease in the sense that

most people conceive of the term, and several others described in that

section are similarly defined in a way that is very vague.



>Specifics:Should some saving throws be a Wil save instead? For instance

>the wound corruption one might fit better asa Wil save.



I could see that argument. For wound corruption, however, I`d prefer to

stick with the standard saving throw (fortitude) since that is the mechanic

used for both poisons and diseases, so wound corruption should probably

stay a fortitude save. For nightfever I could see using a will save, but

it could go either way. Shadowsickness is probably the best candidate for

a will save.



>What about the paladins divine health ability does it keep him immune to

>these diseases, since unlike his ability to remove diseases it

>specifically affects all types of diseases?



Interesting. I`d again have to make this on a disease by disease

basis. As you note, several of the diseases aren`t really diseases per se,

so in a few cases I`d make the disease bypass the paladin`s divine

grace. As a general rule, I`d suggest that if it cannot be cured by Remove

Disease then it bypasses divine grace.



>Is the saving throw modified by bloodline strength or score?



It`s a standard save. One could make an argument that bloodline might

provide a defense, or one could argue that a stronger bloodline would be

_more_ vulnerable to a few of the diseases, so on the whole it`s easier to

just let it work per the normal saving throw rules.



>For effects that cause a loss of blood abilities it would be more accurate

>to state that the scion loses the ability to access his blood abilities

>due to the effects of the disease. Maybe a penalty to access them or

>something to reflect this instead might fit better mechanically.



I`m not getting the distinction here. What`s more accurate about saying

they lose the ability to access his blood abilities due to the effects of

the disease as opposed to saying "may lose a blood ability for the duration

of the infection if he does not make a DC15 fortitude save upon contracting

the disease" or "All blood abilities of infected scions are temporarily

lost until the disease has been cured or run its course"?



As for having a penalty to access them rather than losing them while

infected, there`s already a set of saving throws inherit to the system to

simply avoid the disease entirely, so having saving throws to avoid

penalties to access seems a bit convoluted.



>Blood Delirium * this just doesn’t make sense to me. Why are scions more

>susceptible than non-scions? I can see how a non-scion could be affected

>due to their lack of a bloodline.



It could be used for either scions or commoners if one wanted to have a

general disease effect, but since the effort is in describing diseases that

effect scions that one is just an example of a disease that effects ONLY

scions.



>Crimson eye * Only affects scions?



It affects both scions and commoners--commoners just don`t have bloodline

score to lose when the disease is done. I should probably include a little

text in that description noting that--or better yet put something in the

introduction that says all the diseases affect both commoners and scions

except as noted in the descriptions.



>Echo Madness * I don’t understand the connection between the effects of

>this disease and how a regent loses the ability to spend RP and can lose

>all accumulated RP. I mean the main underlying effect is deafness and

>ringing in the ears how does that correlate to the RP effect?



It`s kind of a pun of the kind that is fairly rampant in the magical

effects of D&D--mostly in regards to spell components. In this case,

orders and information given to the regent "falls upon deaf ears" thus

inhibiting his ability to act as regent. By and large the disease is just

a justification for the game mechanic--it could be used for some other type

of condition--but I found that interpretation amusing.



>Heartfire * understand the concept of scion rejecting bloodline. But this

>is not a real disease, more of a reaction issue. Probably best covered by

>any check made at bloodtheft, similar to checking to see if derivation is

>changed.



Since the game mechanic is pretty much connected to the disease game

mechanic I`d prefer to keep it in with the diseases, but there should be a

note in a bloodtheft text (if one were to incorporate the document into a

larger project) referencing the disease.



>Ice blood * Why would the underlying effect cause the loss of blood abilities?



It`s another pun. The effect of a blooded character who "froze his blood"

or whose "blood runs cold" being the inspiration. What I did was

brainstorm a list of possible game effects like this:



1. Temporary bld damage.

2. Lose a blood ability.

3. Lose all blood abilities.

4. Disease that effects only scions.

Etc.



Then came up with disease descriptions that fit those game mechanics. In

the case of #2 and #3 they became, along with other standard disease

effects, iceblood and nightfever. I`m not really all that worried about

the exact pathology if that`s what you mean in asking why the underlying

effect would cause the loss of a blood ability. Though I did try to have a

thematic connection with their game mechanics, the disease descriptions are

role-playing effects. Why does the DMG`s "blinding sickness" cause Str

damage to accompany the blinding possibility, or cackle fever cause

shrieking wisdom damage?



>Ichor Leeches * not a disease. This is a monster and belongs there not as

>a disease.



I honestly think it`s better off in a list of disease descriptions rather

than a monster write up. For one thing, the size category of a blood

parasite would be something smaller than "fine" which means we`d have to

delve into one of the D20 super hero system. Nobody is going to take a

sword to ichor leeches. I don`t know what the stats for a monster that`s

no bigger (at most) than a flea might be.... If someone wants to take a

stab at it, however, I`d be interested to read it.



>King’s lung * Doesn’t affect non-scions but causes a scion to suffer Con

>damage and bloodline score loss? Back to the issue I have with scions

>being more susceptible to disease than non-scions. I agree that the

>effects can be different, but they shouldn’t be more susceptible.



Both scions and commoners are susceptible. Scions lose bloodline score

points in addition to the con damage (per the disease description.)



>Red fever * no comment except the one on why are scions more susceptible

>than non-scions. Better, IMO to have scions suffer something like this

>when they are affected by a disease regardless of the cause. What I mean

>is a list of additional effects that scions have when sick rather than a

>set of diseases that only affect them.



Though there are a couple of diseases that effect only scions, most of the

diseases do effect both scions and commoners with additional effects on scions.



>Shadowsickness * Make halflings and other creatures native to the shadow

>world. Technically a halfling is a native to the shadow world who has

>moved. I’d also add those with elven blood being immune to reflect the

>tie to the Sie in their history.



The elven blood issue makes some sense, though I could go either way on

it. The Sidhe did, after all, choose the world of light rather than the SW.



>Wound corruption * this is more like a poison than a disease. Doesn’t

>belong in the same category. I agree with the other comments that this

>parallels other mechanics that change bloodline derivation and is not

>really worthy of its own treatment. What I mean is that adding this

>cheapens the effects of those other methods.



Just to reiterate: If the poison game mechanic worked to replicate this

kind of effect then I`d be happy to use it and categorize it appropriately,

but two saves to avoid potential primary and secondary damage just doesn`t

do the trick, so I can`t include it in a list of "Birthright Poisons"

instead. In this case the situation really needs to be able to function

for days on a more or less indefinite basis, so putting it in a poison text

would require recreating the game mechanic used for diseases in that

document which seems like a waste of time, space and effort.



As for wound corruption cheapening the effect of the other methods of

changing bloodline derivation, I don`t know what to tell you other than I

don`t think it really does that, and that existing methods of bloodline

derivation changing are not so unique and inviolate that they need be

protected from being cheapened. Aside from the fact that I really just

don`t see a lot of people running around with the blood of Azrai`s scions

in such quantities that it would be a major issue, I`d argue that it could

be used to explain the origins of several awnsheghlien whose corruption is

otherwise not supported by the rules. The idea does definitely need a

little fleshing out (per the previous posts) but there are plenty of things

in the original materials that imply at this kind of thing.



Gary

[Green Knight]

Gary, once again you have presented fine piece of INNOVATIVE work. This is exactly what keeps me hooked to this game. Keep up the good work - and I`d love to see some poison-type effects for scions in the future.



Cheers

B



Cheers

Bjørn



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[geeman]

At 08:14 AM 12/3/2004 +0100, Bjørn wrote:



>Gary, once again you have presented fine piece of INNOVATIVE work. This is

>exactly what keeps me hooked to this game. Keep up the good work - and I`d

>love to see some poison-type effects for scions in the future.



Thanks and Oh, man, I have to write a BR specific poison doc now?!? :)



Gary

[Hrandal]

Regarding the commoner-to-azrai blooded disease.

You are probably right, but you might consider INT dropping too or instead - lots of Awnsegh seem to have lost their intelligence as they gained physical power.

Rabies is pretty good comparison, you can go for all the hydrophobia and foaming at the mouth stuff.

I think what makes an idea like this good is that its flavour, and background is what I play BR for, not mechanics. If you had to have a rationale for diseases that acted on scions, just consider that if a chair can become blooded (and according to the rules it can be), what's to stop bacteria/parasites from becoming blooded? And once they became blooded, as living creatures they would be bound to gain some strange blood abilities eventually. Look a bloodhounds, for instance.


For some more ideas on diseases/blood disadvantages;

A disease that slowly breaks down Blood points into RP (nasty!)

A disease that makes the scion think they are the god that contributed their Bloodline (the fragment of blood inside sort of "awakens" with a half-memory of what it once was and tries to exert control.) This could be quite a nice ongoing effect, as the regent argues with himself, and keeps declaring he is a god in public. The Will DC for the Scion could be equal to the DC of their typical Blood effect.

A shadow disease that makes a scion sufferer's shadow into a mini-gateway to the shadow-realm. Every now and again something slips out...

A disease that does no harm to the scion, but attempts to suck RP/Bloodline out of anyone they touch.

A disease that makes the regent sterile for the purposes of passing on bloodline. They can still have children, but those children will be born commoners, or their bloodline severely weakened.

[geeman]

In the interest of coming up with a more complete document does anyone have

ideas for Birthright specific diseases that aren`t related to

bloodline? That is, ones having to do with more "typic" things based on

the campaign itself? There are one or two examples in the above document

that are not really bloodline related. Shadowsickness, for instance, is

not really a bloodline-based disease in any way, and technically, blood

delirium could be made unrelated to bloodline entirely. (As conceived it

is a kind of bloodline version of rabies that only effects scions. At

least, that was the idea.)



One that needs to get included is Azrai`s Gift from the LotHK adventure

"The Gift of Azrai" and that`ll be in the next version of the document

along with a few of the ideas expressed so far in this thread.



Gary

[geeman]

OK, folks, here's an updated version of the previous document incorporating a few new diseases and some clarification of the concepts originally presented based on the discussion that's taken place here. Thanks to all for the insightful commentary.

Just for fun I included some formatting and graphics in this PDF that is reminescent of the original BR materials. It's a bit much for a little 3-4 page document, but I just couldn't resist... and I was having some trouble making the table fit nicely in a columned format without putting it on the back cover a la the original BR texts.

Enjoy!
Gary

[Raesene Andu]

Nice work, very impressive all round.

[geeman]

At 01:42 AM 12/7/2004 +0100, Raesene Andu wrote:



> Nice work, very impressive all round.



Thanks, glad you liked it. How about that Vinnie Van Gogh, huh? Gotta

love the use of one of the world`s greatest masters to the background of a

fan-produced supplements to an OOP campaign setting.... It`s enough to

make one lop off an ear.



OK, to continue on in a slightly related note, Bjeorn commented about a

poison document to which I replied with a little irony, but after a little

thought dang it if I didn`t sit down and start to work on just such a

piece. Two things occur to me on the subject, which is why I bring it up

in this thread:



Like the "Diseases" section of the DMG the concept of poisons could run

into a similar problem with classification. That is, the game mechanic

itself really has little or nothing to do with the concept as a whole. An

ongoing effect simply needs to have some sort of mechanic associated with

it that is going to last for days and the primary and secondary damage

effects of the standard poison game mechanic just doesn`t do the trick for

several of the described effects. In a like manner, some of the effects

that I`m going to be fiddling around with aren`t technically poisons in the

sense that they are in described in the DMG. Now, this is not the kind of

thing that has ever really worried me and I think people sometimes put too

much significance into the semantics of the terms used to describe various

rules in the game. I don`t mean to engage in that particular debate--I`m

just mentioning it to let people know that I`m aware of the concept and the

objections and will give the concerns of those who hold such opinions what

I consider their due consideration. That is, none. ;->



That said, I think the direction this is going to go is more along the

lines of "Birthright Drugs & Poisons." For those with access to the Book

of Vile Darkness, the drugs in that system use the same basic mechanic as

poisons, so the concept isn`t really a leap.



On the whole, however, what I`m looking to do are things like both

recreational and medicinal drugs, poisons that are the kinds of things that

might be employed by the aristocracy or in various intrigues, and anything

else that makes sense to have a primary and secondary damage mechanic. I`m

planning to write the document up much like this diseases document, with a

descriptive text for each poison/drug/whatever to accompany the standard

table. For instance, Black Lotus Pollen was a drug I mentioned in an

awnshegh description (the Imp of Adaba) a while back. That`s going to need

a write up. I`m picturing it being something like opium in effect, though

inhaled more like cocaine.



Anyone care to brainstorm a few drugs and poisons that might be appropriate

to the BR setting, particularly how the issue might effect bloodline,

awnsheghlien or the cultures of Cerilia?



Gary

[Hrandal]

I've got an idea for one. I haven't read any of the novels, or much on the elves of BR, so it might already have an equivalent.

Caer-Root
A tuber that grows only in Caerbhaiglien sites. Elves occasionally chew it to receive visions. The effect is dicey - sometimes pointless hallucinations, other times violent illness. If it works properly, the land "speaks" to the person taking the drug - this is like a province-wide version of the Commune with Nature spell. It also allows the character to make Knowledge checks with a +5 modifier for any facts pertaining to the province, and to check as if the appropriate Knowledge was an untrained skill. This bonus lasts for 1 hour after awakening from the Caer-root trance.

At the GM's option, it may also allow the land to communicate with the character in a more meaningful fashion.

While in the grip of the drug, the character is insensible and helpless.

Fort save DC 17
Initial: 1d6 CON damage and Nauseated for 1d4 hours
Secondary: 1d6 WIS damage, unconscious for 1d4 hours
In order for the drug to be effective, the character must pass the first save (if they don't, they just vomit the root back up) then deliberately fail the second save. If they choose to resist the secondary effects, they gain no benefit from the Caer-root.

[geeman]

At 03:55 PM 12/13/2004 +0100, Hrandal wrote:



>Caer-RootA tuber that grows only in Caerbhaiglien sites. Elves

>occasionally chew it to receive visions. The effect is dicey - sometimes

>pointless hallucinations, other times violent illness. If it works

>properly, the land "speaks" to the person taking the drug - this is like a

>province-wide version of the Commune with Nature spell. It also allows

>the character to make Knowledge checks with a +5 modifier for any facts

>pertaining to the province, and to check as if the appropriate Knowledge

>was an untrained skill. This bonus lasts for 1 hour after awakening from

>the Caer-root trance.At the GM`s option, it may also allow the land to

>communicate with the character in a more meaningful fashion.While in the

>grip of the drug, the character is insensible and helpless.Fort save DC

>17Initial: 1d6 CON damage and Nauseated for 1d4 hoursSecondary: 1d6 WIS

> damage, unconscious for 1d4 hoursIn order for the drug to be effective,

> the character must pass the first save (if they don`t, they just vomit

> the root back up) then deliberately fail the second save. If they choose

> to resist the secondary effects, they gain no benefit from the Caer-root.



Nice. I was looking at some various drug effects, but hadn`t gotten to

that weird category that is somewhere between recreational and religious

like peyote or such things.... I may tweak the effect a bit, but I like

the general idea quite a bit. It has an adventure potential all by

itself. How does "tranceroot" sound for the human (Anuirean) name of the root?



Gary

[Hrandal]

Sure, tranceroot sounds fine. I don't know enough gaelic (or whatever it is that BR elven is based on) to give it a proper elven name, or I would have done.


Another idea - perhaps a little silly

Sidhelien's Bane (Elf-bane)
This is a sticky goo made from special fungus harvested from Faerie Rings on a moonless night. The plants contain a trace of Awnmebhaigl, which makes this poison highly toxic to elves.

After reading the posts about elven ageing possibly being tied to nature sites, I would consider that this poison causes an elf to age at a fantastic rate, and perhaps interferes with the flow of Mebhaigl for regency purposes as well.

Gathering this poison is tremendously risky, as it is very easy for the Faerie Folk to nip through at these times to cause a little havoc. Many a would-be poisoner has been dragged off to the Shadow Realm for their troubles.

[geeman]

At 02:03 AM 12/14/2004 +0100, Hrandal wrote:



>Sidhelien`s Bane (Elf-bane)This is a sticky goo made from special fungus

>harvested from Faerie Rings on a moonless night. The plants contain a

>trace of Awnmebhaigl, which makes this poison highly toxic to elves.After

>reading the posts about elven ageing possibly being tied to nature sites,

>I would consider that this poison causes an elf to age at a fantastic

>rate, and perhaps interferes with the flow of Mebhaigl for regency

>purposes as well.Gathering this poison is tremendously risky, as it is

>very easy for the Faerie Folk to nip through at these times to cause a

>little havoc. Many a would-be poisoner has been dragged off to the Shadow

>Realm for their troubles.



Interesting. I`m going to admit a little bias on my part here--I`m a

little pro-Elf. A Sidheite, if you will. I don`t mind using aging effects

(which are generally avoided in 3e+) to express certain campaign themes,

but in this case since it is often the mortals who enter elven lands and

emerge aged in ways that are not explained by the time of their absence I

think this one might work better in the setting if elves were immune to the

aging effects due to their everyouthful status. But that could be just my

bias talking....



Gary

[irdeggman]

How about Shadow Mushroom or Shadow Spore? A tie in to the Shadow World would do an awful lot towards explaining why it works the way it does. Sidhelien age normally when in the Shadow World. The fungus could exist in both worlds simultaneously and be found in Elven Forests. Functioning the same in both worlds, that is it has the same effect on the faerie seelie in the Shadow World. It could be found only under a full moon (and other conditions that correspod to the strong proxumity of the two worlds).

[geeman]

At 11:46 PM 12/14/2004 +0100, irdeggman wrote:



> How about Shadow Mushroom or Shadow Spore? A tie in to the Shadow

> World would do an awful lot towards explaining why it works the way it

> does. Sidhelien age normally when in the Shadow World. The fungus could

> exist in both worlds simultaneously and be found in Elven

> Forests. Functioning the same in both worlds, that is it has the same

> effect on the faerie seelie in the Shadow World. It could be found only

> under a full moon (and other conditions that correspod to the strong

> proxumity of the two worlds).



I like it. The SW is one of those core BR themes that I really think it`s

hard to over-emphasize, so just about anything that intimates the looming

nature of that plane over the world of light is a good thing. In this case

combining it with elven themes makes it a double-plus. I don`t know how

this kind of thing might get re-written when I actually sit down to

scribble it up--weird issues like how the theme is going to interact with

the game mechanics don`t usually crop up until actually playtested or at

least written down--but on the whole the ideas expressed have been quite

imaginative. Kudos.



In mulling this over, I`m thinking maybe it should work kind of like this

in broad strokes: The Sidhe are ever-young in the world of light, but lose

that ability when in the SW (or otherwise outside the material plane of

Aebrynis.) Upon returning to their home plane they do not remain the aged

by their experience off-plane, but return to their previous, youthful

appearance. I just can`t wrap my head around players running into an OLD

elf in BR. It just doesn`t add up IMO. At least, not an old elf that

remains old. If a character were, however, poisoned and the PCs had to

find a cure for his/her infection, that would be very interesting and would

provide an excellent adventure hook not unlike the kinds of things in

LotHK. When the PCs return with the cure and administer it they watch the

elf return to his "natural" ever-young condition. It`s nice and visual.



Gary

[Hrandal]

This is another idea along the lines of drug/poison, its called Night-eye.

Night-eye is a type of reed which grows along the banks of forest rivers, and is most commonly used by woodsmen who work in shadowy areas and guards who want to stay alert on night watches.

Night-eye is most commonly prepared by being cut and then quickly boiled into a tea (only fresh Night-eye reeds will work for this.) The stem contains a mildly toxic sap which causes the pupil to dilate and increases visual acuity for a short time.

The effects of Night-eye tea are
-1 to all attacks, saves, skill checks, ability checks when in bright light such as sunlight
+2 to all Spot checks in dimly lit areas
Low-light vision

Fort Save DC 12
Initial: 1 CON damage
Secondary: 1 CON damage

Ladies in the courts of the Brechtur have long used the effects of Night-eye to enhance their beauty by putting a few drops in their eyes before a social engagement. This practice is harmful over the long-term, but has also been gaining a little ground in the court of Endier, where many things Brechtur are often adopted in an effort to flatter Guilder Kalien.

[irdeggman]

Originally posted by Hrandal@Dec 19 2004, 12:29 PM
Ladies in the courts of the Brechtur have long used the effects of Night-eye to enhance their beauty by putting a few drops in their eyes before a social engagement. This practice is harmful over the long-term, but has also been gaining a little ground in the court of Endier, where many things Brechtur are often adopted in an effort to flatter Guilder Kalien.
Interesting, but I don't see how it enhances beauty.

[Hrandal]

I've heard that in real history female courtiers sometimes used Belladonna to make their eyes look large and dark. (And I think pupil dilation is supposed to be a sign that you are sexually attracted as well.) Ladies fashions - who can understand them!?

Another example of self-mutilating fashion was a fashionable clay that was used to keep Geisha's skin very white. Unfortunately it was loaded with heavy metals and after a decade or so of using it the skin turned yellow and hung off them like turkey wattle.

[geeman]

At 09:31 PM 12/19/2004 +0100, irdeggman wrote:



>>Ladies in the courts of the Brechtur have long used the effects of

>>Night-eye to enhance their beauty by putting a few drops in their eyes

>>before a social engagement. This practice is harmful over the long-term,

>>but has also been gaining a little ground in the court of Endier, where

>>many things Brechtur are often adopted in an effort to flatter Guilder Kalien.

>

> Interesting, but I don`t see how it enhances beauty.



If I might jump in: It`s a nod to real world historical beauty

techniques. The idea being that a dark, doe-eyed look with a full pupil

was beautiful. Also, pupil dilation often occurs when one is looking at

something that one likes or finds otherwise arousing, particularly

sexually. When you look at someone whose eyes dilate when they are looking

at you it is a queue that they are physically attracted. Lastly, in a

fully open pupil often occurs in dimly lit, romantic circumstances and is,

therefore, associated with the boudoir or other location of tryst. In

various places and times in history women have used certain substances to

dilate their eyes in order to artificially induce look of "bedroom eyes" in

the various senses of the term. One sees this kind of thing in old

cartoons like Betty Boop (which was hugely influential on modern comic and

animation, particularly the Japanese varieties) in which the eyes of the

good characters tend to be freakishly oversized. Characters with small or

even normally proportioned eyes are generally classified as villains or

untrustworthy.



Sometimes this beauty technique resulted in damage to the eyesight of the

women who employed it, unfortunately, not unlike the lead based makeup

often applied for beauty purposes that could take off a layer of two of

skin as well as poison the person wearing it. Vanity is a cruel mistress....



Gary

[RaspK_FOG]

All of the above is entirely true; also, don't forget that dilation of the iris is associated not only with excitement, but also with surprise. Finally, the Italian name of deadly nightshade, belladonna, means "beautiful lady".

[irdeggman]

Well spoken,

Then there should be a game mechanic effect to reflect that. Say a +2 circumstance bonus to interaction checks made with the opposite sex?

Interaction checks could be any Charisma based check relating to interaction (diplomacy, bluff, etc.)

[Hrandal]

I'm not sure fashion should be rewarded with any kind of bonus, to be honest. I've seen plenty of girls wearing "fashionable" stuff that looked completely weird (skirt over trousers anyone?) :rolleyes:

Psychology studies have shown that the main reason girls tend to follow fashions is to impress other girls, not to impress men (mind you, young men are supposed to be spending more on fashion clothing these days, so maybe the trend is no longer limited to girls.)

Anyway, I'd say fashion is to do with peer pressure, not actual attractiveness, hence you should be punished if you don't keep up with it (akin to not having the jewellry to accompany a courtier's outfit in the PHB) rather than rewarding it if you do. True style comes from within, and is largely to do with self-confidence and natural good looks, which is basically what CHA represents anyway.

[irdeggman]

Well since people had pointed out that the point of the makeup (and perfume for that matter) was to arouse the male members of society it seemed to me that an appropriate game mechanic should exist for it.

This is not the same as a "fashion-sense" which as Gary pointed out is more in line with one-upping the other members of the same sex in society.

Make up and perfume were specifically designed to arouse the males and so this makes sense. While some manner of clothing could also work that way, it is less likely to be worn in public (although not unheard of) - in that case then there would a bonus towards members of the opposite sex with a corresponding penalty towards members of the same sex ("that tart").

Gary you are truncating the header in your e-mail replies again so your responses are going off towards other threads. (Well that is my assumption since that is what happened when this occured several months ago).

[Hrandal]

I don't know if this counts as a material component, a good-luck charm or a what, but here goes....

In real medieval history, the pope's faeces were collected - as they had been "touched by the divine" having passed through God's vicar on earth - and distributed as a miraculous substance that could do all manner of beneficial things. In actual fact, they were in such demand that they had to be mixed with the "night soil" of cardinals and bishops in order to meet demand. (Its true - you couldn't make this stuff up!)

Now, does anyone think that the equivalent could be true of any of the Archprelates of the churches of Haelyn? And if so, would it confer any bonuses? :lol:

[irdeggman]

Originally posted by Hrandal@Dec 22 2004, 12:15 AM
I don't know if this counts as a material component, a good-luck charm or a what, but here goes....

In real medieval history, the pope's faeces were collected - as they had been "touched by the divine" having passed through God's vicar on earth - and distributed as a miraculous substance that could do all manner of beneficial things. In actual fact, they were in such demand that they had to be mixed with the "night soil" of cardinals and bishops in order to meet demand. (Its true - you couldn't make this stuff up!)

Now, does anyone think that the equivalent could be true of any of the Archprelates of the churches of Haelyn? And if so, would it confer any bonuses? :lol:
Hmmm let's see maybe a moral authority bonus, I mean morale. :lol:

[geeman]

irdeggman writes:



> QUOTE (Hrandal @ Dec 22 2004, 12:15 AM) I don`t know if this counts as a material component, a good-luck charm or a what, but here goes....In real medieval history, the pope`s faeces were collected - as they had been "touched by the divine" having passed through God`s vicar on earth - and distributed as a miraculous substance that could do all manner of beneficial things. In actual fact, they were in such demand that they had to be mixed with the "night soil" of cardinals and bishops in order to meet demand. (Its true - you couldn`t make this stuff up!)Now, does anyone think that the equivalent could be true of any of the Archprelates of the churches of Haelyn? And if so, would it confer any bonuses? :lol:

> -----------------------------

>

> Hmmm let`s see maybe a moral authority bonus, I mean morale. :lol:



To me the question is what should a bonus from such material stack with?



Gary