Elven longlivety

[JD Lail]

*******original text follows***************

>> Most people seem to assume that every elf will be several centuries old,
>> but that sounds to me a little far fetched. I know that this is a
>> fantasy game, but lets take a look at RL science. One of the main
>> reasons evolution did not select for a long life, is the chance rate of
>> dying by some kind of freakish accident. In fact, I heard a scientist
>> state that if humans would become immortal, there still would be almost
>> no human older then 700 years. By that time they would have died due to
>> some unfortunate accident. While in Cerilia there are no cars and that
>> kind of things, I still think that most elves die before the end of
>> their first millenium. If not only for all those humans, goblins and
>> other dangerous creatures. One should also not forget that they do not
>> have clerics. Which means that if they get below 0 hp (if you use that
>> optionial rule), they will almost certainly die.

>I don't think that I agree with you here. How many life threatening
>accidents do you think people have? Japanese 1997 census data indicates
>a rate of 31.1 accidental deaths for every 10000 people per year.
>Accidents don't show up as a top 5 cause of death until 1961. The
>highest rate of accidental deaths they have ever recorded is 44.1/100000
>people.

>At that rate, it will take 1571.4 years before any individual elf has
>even a 50% chance of dying from an accident. There are people who will
>say that this example is distorted by modern medicine, on the other
>hand, society today is considerably more likely to produce lethal accidents
>(Motor vehicles, electrical appliances).

Pieter you are flat wrong on your statistics here. You are calculating
probabilities in a way that is not allowed. Cumulative probabilities
are multiplacative not addiditive. Thus you would take the chance of
living you quoted (.99689) and exponentiate it.

1) After 100 years only 73.2 % will still be alive.
2) After 200 years only 53.6 % will still be alive.
3) After 500 years only 21.0 % will still be alive.
4) After 1000 years only 4.4 % will still be alive.

And that is using a mortality rate that is unachievable in the technology
available to the elves imnho. Use something reasonable and it really gets
hairy quick.

Don Lail

[Pieter Sleijpen]

Most people seem to assume that every elf will be several centuries old,
but that sounds to me a little far fetched. I know that this is a
fantasy game, but lets take a look at RL science. One of the main
reasons evolution did not select for a long life, is the chance rate of
dying by some kind of freakish accident. In fact, I heard a scientist
state that if humans would become immortal, there still would be almost
no human older then 700 years. By that time they would have died due to
some unfortunate accident. While in Cerilia there are no cars and that
kind of things, I still think that most elves die before the end of
their first millenium. If not only for all those humans, goblins and
other dangerous creatures. One should also not forget that they do not
have clerics. Which means that if they get below 0 hp (if you use that
optiniol rule), they will almost certainly die.

One of my other arguments was that they do not adventure at all. Meaning
that they do not get any experience at all. So it is not just 1/5th
slower, for most elves it is a lot more then that.

Pieter Sleijpen

[Pieter A de Jong]

Pieter Sleijpen wrote:
>
> Most people seem to assume that every elf will be several centuries old,
> but that sounds to me a little far fetched. I know that this is a
> fantasy game, but lets take a look at RL science. One of the main
> reasons evolution did not select for a long life, is the chance rate of
> dying by some kind of freakish accident. In fact, I heard a scientist
> state that if humans would become immortal, there still would be almost
> no human older then 700 years. By that time they would have died due to
> some unfortunate accident. While in Cerilia there are no cars and that
> kind of things, I still think that most elves die before the end of
> their first millenium. If not only for all those humans, goblins and
> other dangerous creatures. One should also not forget that they do not
> have clerics. Which means that if they get below 0 hp (if you use that
> optiniol rule), they will almost certainly die.
>
I don't think that I agree with you here. How many life threatening
accidents do you think people have? Japanese 1997 census data indicates
a rate of 31.1 accidental deaths for every 10000 people per year.
Accidents don't show up as a top 5 cause of death until 1961. The
highest
rate of accidental deaths they have ever recorded is 44.1/100000 people.
At that rate, it will take 1571.4 years before any individual elf has
even a 50% chance of dying from an accident. There are people who will
say that this example is distorted by modern medicine, on the other
hand,
society today is considerably more likely to produce lethal accidents
(Motor vehicles, electrical appliances).
Data from the vital statistics page at :
http://www.mhw.go.jp/english/database/populate/index.html

> One of my other arguments was that they do not adventure at all. Meaning
> that they do not get any experience at all. So it is not just 1/5th
> slower, for most elves it is a lot more then that.

This makes loads of sense. How many demihuman PC's sit out 4/5
adventures, as compared to the human characters. I would suggest that
you quit stereotyping your non-human races. I suggest that every race
will show as much diversity of character as humans do. Therefore, some
elves may not be interested in working at all (as some humans are). But
some elves will be quite interested in performing services for their own
people, exploring the world, or experimenting with magic.

- --

Pieter A de Jong
Graduate Mechanical Engineering Student
University of Saskatchewan, Saskatoon, Canada

[Pieter Sleijpen]

Pieter A de Jong wrote:

> I don't think that I agree with you here. How many life threatening
> accidents do you think people have? Japanese 1997 census data indicates
> a rate of 31.1 accidental deaths for every 10000 people per year.
> Accidents don't show up as a top 5 cause of death until 1961. The
> highest
> rate of accidental deaths they have ever recorded is 44.1/100000 people.
> At that rate, it will take 1571.4 years before any individual elf has
> even a 50% chance of dying from an accident. There are people who will
> say that this example is distorted by modern medicine, on the other
> hand,
> society today is considerably more likely to produce lethal accidents
> (Motor vehicles, electrical appliances).

As you said yourself, modern science is a two-edged sword. First of all,
In the past most people would have died because of diseases before they
died in an accident. That could quite well explain why it is in the
top-something only recently. Not to mention that modern science makes
rescues from near-death situations a lot more likely. Though magic might
replace that part.

I also wonder if those numbers take wars into account? All the elven
nations are under constant siege. Sounds to me that there is a lot of
war going on.

> > One of my other arguments was that they do not adventure at all. Meaning
> > that they do not get any experience at all. So it is not just 1/5th
> > slower, for most elves it is a lot more then that.
>
> This makes loads of sense. How many demihuman PC's sit out 4/5
> adventures, as compared to the human characters. I would suggest that
> you quit stereotyping your non-human races. I suggest that every race
> will show as much diversity of character as humans do. Therefore, some
> elves may not be interested in working at all (as some humans are). But
> some elves will be quite interested in performing services for their own
> people, exploring the world, or experimenting with magic.

Why should a completely different race have the same outlook to life?
Why should dwarves, halflings and elves being humans? Sure, in my
campaign every major character is unique (of coarse every character is
unique, but I lack the time to go into that much detail). That includes
the few non-human sentient creatures my PC's have met. But do you really
think that the average attitude of a race that is immortal, immune to
diseases, needs no sleep and has got way different senses then humans,
would act like humans?

Besides, the fast majority of humans do nothing, since there are a lot
less elfs then humans, that means that there are a lot less adventurers.
Even when you took the same percentage as being classed characters. As
for non-human adventures...as it happens I have only 1 non-human PC in a
total of 16 or so! And that elf is planning to play an other character
temporarily, because the elf wants to do something else for some time.

Pieter Sleijpen

[Pieter A de Jong]

Pieter Sleijpen wrote:
>
> Pieter A de Jong wrote:
>
> > I don't think that I agree with you here. How many life threatening
> > accidents do you think people have? Japanese 1997 census data indicates
> > a rate of 31.1 accidental deaths for every 10000 people per year.
> > Accidents don't show up as a top 5 cause of death until 1961. The
> > highest
> > rate of accidental deaths they have ever recorded is 44.1/100000 people.
> > At that rate, it will take 1571.4 years before any individual elf has
> > even a 50% chance of dying from an accident. There are people who will
> > say that this example is distorted by modern medicine, on the other
> > hand,
> > society today is considerably more likely to produce lethal accidents
> > (Motor vehicles, electrical appliances).
>
> As you said yourself, modern science is a two-edged sword. First of all,
> In the past most people would have died because of diseases before they
> died in an accident. That could quite well explain why it is in the
> top-something only recently. Not to mention that modern science makes
> rescues from near-death situations a lot more likely. Though magic might
> replace that part.
>
> I also wonder if those numbers take wars into account? All the elven
> nations are under constant siege. Sounds to me that there is a lot of
> war going on.
>
No, these numbers don't take wars into account, Japan hasn't fought a
war
since WW2. War deaths don't count as accidents, neither do murders. Your
post was discussing accidental deaths. I would suggest that elven
casualty
rates in warfare are also going to be very low. It's not like they
catch
gangrene. Also, as immortals, individual troopers are much more likely
to
be veterans and therefore are many times more likely to survive combat.

> > > One of my other arguments was that they do not adventure at all. Meaning
> > > that they do not get any experience at all. So it is not just 1/5th
> > > slower, for most elves it is a lot more then that.
> >
> > This makes loads of sense. How many demihuman PC's sit out 4/5
> > adventures, as compared to the human characters. I would suggest that
> > you quit stereotyping your non-human races. I suggest that every race
> > will show as much diversity of character as humans do. Therefore, some
> > elves may not be interested in working at all (as some humans are). But
> > some elves will be quite interested in performing services for their own
> > people, exploring the world, or experimenting with magic.
>
> Why should a completely different race have the same outlook to life?
> Why should dwarves, halflings and elves being humans? Sure, in my
> campaign every major character is unique (of coarse every character is
> unique, but I lack the time to go into that much detail). That includes
> the few non-human sentient creatures my PC's have met. But do you really
> think that the average attitude of a race that is immortal, immune to
> diseases, needs no sleep and has got way different senses then humans,
> would act like humans?

No, I don't. I also don't expect them all to cut from the same cookie
cutter mold. All of them content to frolick in the moonlight glades of
the elven woods and drink dewdrops. No, I expect to see large amounts
of variation inside any given race, from driven individuals like Rhuobe
Manslayer to stereotypical empty headed california valley girls. Nor do
I expect them to look on the human race as much more than trained
monkeys, to be crushed by whatever means available if they get out of
line.

>
> Besides, the fast majority of humans do nothing, since there are a lot
> less elfs then humans, that means that there are a lot less adventurers.
> Even when you took the same percentage as being classed characters. As
> for non-human adventures...as it happens I have only 1 non-human PC in a
> total of 16 or so! And that elf is planning to play an other character
> temporarily, because the elf wants to do something else for some time.
>

The vast majority of people do nothing, that's right. Only adventurers
really advance in level. However, adventurers of any race are
exceptional
individuals. Therefore, there is no reason to say that an elven
adventurer is going to be less driven than his (or her) human
couterpart.
That is where you and I part views.


Pieter A de Jong
Graduate Mechanical Engineering Student
University of Saskatchewan, Saskatoon, Canada

[DKEvermore@aol.co]

In a message dated 2/15/99 2:05:57 PM Central Standard Time, madfox@wxs.nl
writes:

> Most people seem to assume that every elf will be several centuries old,
> but that sounds to me a little far fetched. I know that this is a
> fantasy game, but lets take a look at RL science. One of the main
> reasons evolution did not select for a long life, is the chance rate of
> dying by some kind of freakish accident. In fact, I heard a scientist
> state that if humans would become immortal, there still would be almost
> no human older then 700 years. By that time they would have died due to
> some unfortunate accident. While in Cerilia there are no cars and that
> kind of things, I still think that most elves die before the end of
> their first millenium. If not only for all those humans, goblins and
> other dangerous creatures. One should also not forget that they do not
> have clerics. Which means that if they get below 0 hp (if you use that
> optiniol rule), they will almost certainly die.
>
Of course it's far fetched that elves are immortal and might be a 1000 years
old. That's the point of fantasy. Giant ants are impossible, too, without
lungs, but that doesn't stop GMs from throwing them against the party instead
of having them lying twitching as they slowly suffocate. Amazingly giants'
hearts are only flesh and blood, yet manage to pump blood tens of feet against
the force of gravity without exploding or giving out before the giant if 5
years old.

Come on, this is fantasy! It's supposed to be made up of the stuff of
legends!

- -DKE

[Tim Nutting]

Intersting statements, but science cannot account for the elvish abilities
of ultravision, immunity to disease, immunity to aging effects (a ghost's
aging does not harm a sidhe), extreme mobility across all terrain types, and
of all things, science does not account for magic.

In the scientific mind, there is no room for something so esoteric and
nonphysical as magic or religion. Nature would not select the long life for
the elves, magic would.

>

A few things:

I agree without about the mortality rate. I'd imagine that most elves do
not make it past 1,000, and I think the books agree with you, as every
regent in the game except for the awnshegh and ershegh are less than 1,000
years old. However, I have set for myself a concept that at least as many
as 20% do live that long. No scientific base, sorry, that's just the way it
is in my games.

Just because clerics are not available does not mean healing is impossible.
Necromancy cannot heal a person, but a plethora of spells from DMGR3 (?) The
Complete Necromancer's Handbook (very good - even includes a mini campaign
for Al-Qadim) demonstrate that it can transfer wounds. So magical healing
via wizardly power is not impossible, and in fact if you allow for the
superior care that elven physicians who blend knowledge of anatomy with
knowledge of the spirit, all it takes is a minor spell to bring a person
back above the death mark.

In fact as far as medical care in sidhelien society is concerned, in my
games the elves have an absolute and complete understanding of the sidhelien
body and its functions. The art of accupressure can achieve amazing results
in a person based merely by manipulating the lumbars of the human body,
imagine how much more skilled a craftsman dedicated to his art for 700 years
could do, and this is merely an example. IMC elves fully understand that
humankind's only knowledge of real healing is "dear god please heal this
man". Elves on the other hand know how to mend bones, set severe breaks,
pull a fractured rib from a heart and promote healing, etc. Add to this
that they are __completely__ immune to biological diseases eliminates a
major cause of death among humankind. Think about it: No Black Plague -
EVER. A disease that killed at least 30% of europe will never touch them.

Hmmm, a new weapon fo the ghallie sidhe? Cerilian elves enter the fine art
of biological warfare... It is recorded that one of the first attempts at
this was a missionary during the colization of america who distributed
blankets deliberately collected from children who had either been sick with
or died of small pocks among the native american population. I think that
man had more Gold in his heart than God...



I have argued time and again about the complete lack of realism displayed by
the level progression system of AD&D. Simply put it does not work for
average people. If the game were true to life then because I didn't go join
the Navy SEALs I never could have learned to read, nor would I have acquired
an AA in English, nor would I have acquired any computer skills. Modern vs.
old? Think again, by the logic of AD&D, a master chef who worked for Reole
himself would never have improved at his craft once he achieved the ripe old
age of 15. That's like saying that the best cooks in the world can be found
among the masterfully skilled and enormously dedicated artisans at the grill
in McDonald's. Oh, and BTW, the cook could only be a cook, he could never
learn to read, write, drive, ride a horse, shoot a bow, etc.

My not so humble arguments are concluded
:)

Tim Nutting

[David Sean Brown]

I think its important to look at the time frame here...you are right that
accident isn't the leading cause of death these days (with the exception
of the 15-25 (ish) age group..its disease, and it always has been...even
in magic fantasy worlds, not everyone has access to a cleric to heal them,
and with no antibiotics, your life expectancy is alarmly short (If I
recall correctly, the average Roman lived about 27 years...whether he/she
was killed in a war or not)..

Remember, that even at the turn of the century, life expectancy for the
average American Citizen was only about 40 years...


Sean



> I don't think that I agree with you here. How many life threatening
> accidents do you think people have? Japanese 1997 census data indicates
> a rate of 31.1 accidental deaths for every 10000 people per year.
> Accidents don't show up as a top 5 cause of death until 1961. The
> highest
> rate of accidental deaths they have ever recorded is 44.1/100000 people.
> At that rate, it will take 1571.4 years before any individual elf has
> even a 50% chance of dying from an accident. There are people who will
> say that this example is distorted by modern medicine, on the other
> hand,
> society today is considerably more likely to produce lethal accidents
> (Motor vehicles, electrical appliances).
> Data from the vital statistics page at :
> http://www.mhw.go.jp/english/database/populate/index.html
>
> > One of my other arguments was that they do not adventure at all. Meaning
> > that they do not get any experience at all. So it is not just 1/5th
> > slower, for most elves it is a lot more then that.
>
> This makes loads of sense. How many demihuman PC's sit out 4/5
> adventures, as compared to the human characters. I would suggest that
> you quit stereotyping your non-human races. I suggest that every race
> will show as much diversity of character as humans do. Therefore, some
> elves may not be interested in working at all (as some humans are). But
> some elves will be quite interested in performing services for their own
> people, exploring the world, or experimenting with magic.
>
> --
>

[Kenneth Gauck]

- -----Original Message-----
From: Pieter A de Jong
Date: Monday, February 15, 1999 4:27 PM
>.....stereotypical empty headed california valley girls.

Appreciation of aethetics is not empty headed. Indeed it approaches truth
more honestly than the material ever does.

[Kenneth Gauck]

- -----Original Message-----
From: Tim Nutting
Date: Monday, February 15, 1999 7:42 PM
>
>In the scientific mind, there is no room for something so esoteric and
>nonphysical as magic or religion. Nature would not select the long life
for
>the elves, magic would.
>
Magic is science, or more exactly, magic is outdated science. Turning base
metals into gold? It was once science. Communication with demons and the
dead, it was science. Divination- science. Herbalism- science, and its
come back into vogue. Inducing the properties of gems or animal parts-
science. All of this is not modern science, but it is science, and
therefore obeys some set of laws, even if they are not in agreement with
current understanding.

>The art of accupressure can achieve amazing results ...

I like this.

>IMC elves fully understand that humankind's only knowledge of real
>healing is "dear god please heal this man". Elves on the other
>hand know how to mend bones, set severe breaks, pull a fractured
>rib from a heart and promote healing, etc.

Why are humans so dull witted? Medicine goes back into the stone age on
Earth. Evidence of serious wounds healed is abundant. How is this
knowledge lost on humans in Cerilia, who in other ways evidence such
remarkable learning? Renaissance technology but pre-mesolitihic medicine?
Why?

>Add to this that they are __completely__ immune to biological diseases
>eliminates a major cause of death among humankind. Think about it: No
>Black Plague - EVER. A disease that killed at least 30% of europe will
>never touch them.

Kind of an argument against advanced medical knowledge, IMO.

>Hmmm, a new weapon fo the ghallie sidhe? Cerilian elves enter the fine art
>of biological warfare... It is recorded that one of the first attempts at
>this was a missionary during the colization of america who distributed
>blankets deliberately collected from children who had either been sick with
>or died of small pocks among the native american population. I think that
>man had more Gold in his heart than God...

And is milenia after other recorded accounts of similar behavior. This is
no where near the first of anything.

>
>I have argued time and again about the complete lack of realism displayed
by
>the level progression system of AD&D. Simply put it does not work for
>average people. If the game were true to life then because I didn't go
join
>the Navy SEALs I never could have learned to read, nor would I have
acquired
>an AA in English, nor would I have acquired any computer skills. Modern
vs.
>old? Think again, by the logic of AD&D, .....

D&D was designed to represent only adventurers. Other game systems spent
more time on basic skills accumulation for non-heroic types. D&D has never
really acknowledged the non-heroic types. It is not a universal system. It
does not explain all humans in Cerilia. Most poeple see little or no
advancement in THAC0 and HD, but see lots of increase in Proficencies. The
game does not discuss this advancement because it is assumed no one wants to
play a cook. At least a cook who does nothing but prepare meals.

Kenneth Gauck
c558382@earthlink.net

[Kenneth Gauck]

Be careful with averages. This kind of statistic is of the "one foot in ice
water, the other foot in scalding, one average person feels fine" variety.
There was lots of infant mortality, if you survived that you were likely to
live a long time. Historical demographics uses three benchmark ages, 1
year, 5 years and 20 (or 21) years. So proper demographic method would be
to as:
Of the number of births, how many reach 1 year, how many reach 5, how many
reach 21, and of those who reach 21, what is the average life expectancy.

The idea that the "average" Roman lived 27 years makes it sound as if alot
of people were dieing in thier twenties and thirties, which was not the
case. Lots of child mortality brings down the average, which was otherwise
in the mid 50's. There was no appreciable extention of life until after
WWII. Before that most demographic advances were in the reduction of child
mortality.

Kenneth Gauck
c558382@earthlink.net

- -----Original Message-----
From: David Sean Brown
To: birthright@MPGN.COM
Date: Monday, February 15, 1999 8:36 PM
Subject: Re: [BIRTHRIGHT] - Elven longlivety


>I think its important to look at the time frame here...you are right that
>accident isn't the leading cause of death these days (with the exception
>of the 15-25 (ish) age group..its disease, and it always has been...even
>in magic fantasy worlds, not everyone has access to a cleric to heal them,
>and with no antibiotics, your life expectancy is alarmly short (If I
>recall correctly, the average Roman lived about 27 years...whether he/she
>was killed in a war or not)..
>
>Remember, that even at the turn of the century, life expectancy for the
>average American Citizen was only about 40 years...
>
>Sean

[the Falcon]

> Hmmm, a new weapon fo the ghallie sidhe? Cerilian elves enter the fine art
> of biological warfare... It is recorded that one of the first attempts at
> this was a missionary during the colization of america who distributed
> blankets deliberately collected from children who had either been sick with
> or died of small pocks among the native american population. I think that
> man had more Gold in his heart than God...

Gee, I didn't know god had gold in his heart... ;)
My, that missionary sure must've had a heart of gold if he had more gold
in his heart than god... ;)

[the Falcon]

> >Hmmm, a new weapon fo the ghallie sidhe? Cerilian elves enter the fine art
> >of biological warfare... It is recorded that one of the first attempts at
> >this was a missionary during the colization of america who distributed
> >blankets deliberately collected from children who had either been sick with
> >or died of small pocks among the native american population. I think that
> >man had more Gold in his heart than God...
>
> And is milenia after other recorded accounts of similar behavior. This is
> no where near the first of anything.

Indeed, in mediaevel times, armies laying siege were pretty fond of
catapulting deceased and diseased cows and other livestock over the walls
and into the castle.

[Pieter A de Jong]

J. D. Lail wrote:
>
> Pieter you are flat wrong on your statistics here. You are calculating
> probabilities in a way that is not allowed. Cumulative probabilities
> are multiplacative not addiditive. Thus you would take the chance of
> living you quoted (.99689) and exponentiate it.
>
> 1) After 100 years only 73.2 % will still be alive.
> 2) After 200 years only 53.6 % will still be alive.
> 3) After 500 years only 21.0 % will still be alive.
> 4) After 1000 years only 4.4 % will still be alive.
>
> And that is using a mortality rate that is unachievable in the technology
> available to the elves imnho. Use something reasonable and it really gets
> hairy quick.
>
Don, I know how to calculate probability. To be specific. (1-X)^n=P.
Where X is the probability of death due to accident (44.1/100000), P is
the
probability of the elf dying (0.5), and n is the number of years.
Therefore:
1-X= 0.999559
log(1-x)=-1.915661E-4
P=0.5
log(P)=-0.30103
n*log(1-x)=log(P)
n=log(P)/log(1-x)
n=-0.30103/(-1.915661E-4)=1571.416

I trust that I am making myself clear. The accident rate you used in
your
calculations is actually 311/100000. And while technology may help
people
survive accidents, it also provides many more possible accidents, and
people
don't have elves natural advantages. ie. someone with a weak heart from
smoking is much more likely to die as a result of an electric shock.
Also,
the elven immunity to disease will save many lives by preventing
secondary
infections. Note that such deaths are considered accidental in these
statistics as without the accident, such an infection would not be
lethal.
- --

Pieter A de Jong
Graduate Mechanical Engineering Student
University of Saskatchewan, Saskatoon, Canada

[Pieter A de Jong]

David Sean Brown wrote:
>
> I think its important to look at the time frame here...you are right that
> accident isn't the leading cause of death these days (with the exception
> of the 15-25 (ish) age group..its disease, and it always has been...even
> in magic fantasy worlds, not everyone has access to a cleric to heal them,
> and with no antibiotics, your life expectancy is alarmly short (If I
> recall correctly, the average Roman lived about 27 years...whether he/she
> was killed in a war or not)..
>
> Remember, that even at the turn of the century, life expectancy for the
> average American Citizen was only about 40 years...
>
This would be a very appropriate comment, if we weren't discussing the
most
difficult for the DM race in Birthrigtht, the elves. Elves are immune
to
disease and aging effects. Every elf is effectively at their physical
prime
from the time they reach adulthood to the time they die.

- --

Pieter A de Jong
Graduate Mechanical Engineering Student
University of Saskatchewan, Saskatoon, Canada

[Pieter A de Jong]

Kenneth Gauck wrote:
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Pieter A de Jong
> Date: Monday, February 15, 1999 4:27 PM
> >.....stereotypical empty headed california valley girls.
>
> Appreciation of aethetics is not empty headed. Indeed it approaches truth
> more honestly than the material ever does.

You are correct. I cannot say however, that appreciative of aethestics
is the appropriated description for people who think Beavis and Butthead
is the highest possible form of humor.

Pieter A de Jong
Graduate Mechanical Engineering Student
University of Saskatchewan, Saskatoon, Canada

[the Falcon]

> This would be a very appropriate comment, if we weren't discussing the
> most
> difficult for the DM race in Birthrigtht, the elves. Elves are immune
> to
> disease and aging effects. Every elf is effectively at their physical
> prime
> from the time they reach adulthood to the time they die.

One of my players pointed out that the great drawback of not having a
maximum age - or a maximum age of infinite (depends on how you look at
it) - is that this also means that you would never get any Wis or Int
bonuses. Humans can get age bonuses to Wis and Int pretty fast -
infinitely faster than elves.

[Pieter A de Jong]

the Falcon wrote:
>
> > This would be a very appropriate comment, if we weren't discussing the
> > most
> > difficult for the DM race in Birthrigtht, the elves. Elves are immune
> > to
> > disease and aging effects. Every elf is effectively at their physical
> > prime
> > from the time they reach adulthood to the time they die.
>
> One of my players pointed out that the great drawback of not having a
> maximum age - or a maximum age of infinite (depends on how you look at
> it) - is that this also means that you would never get any Wis or Int
> bonuses. Humans can get age bonuses to Wis and Int pretty fast -
> infinitely faster than elves.
>
Well, I have never really bothered applying those in my campaign.
However,
if I did, I would use the standard suggested increases in
Wisdom/intelligence
with age for elves while not reducing their constitution/strength. I
would
simply take the final age category and change the upper limit of age to
infinite.
- --

Pieter A de Jong
Graduate Mechanical Engineering Student
University of Saskatchewan, Saskatoon, Canada

[Pieter Sleijpen]

Pieter A de Jong wrote:
>
> The vast majority of people do nothing, that's right. Only adventurers
> really advance in level. However, adventurers of any race are
> exceptional
> individuals. Therefore, there is no reason to say that an elven
> adventurer is going to be less driven than his (or her) human
> couterpart.
> That is where you and I part views.

MMM, actually we don't. It seems we misunderstood each other.

We were discussing mainly why elves had so few high level hero's when
compared to humans. I explaind why. Some elves certianly have the drive,
at least for a while. Life as an adventurer is taxing though, and when
you are immortal death means a lot more then to a human. And just think
of all the psychological trauma's humans get when they land in RL into
the situations in which adventurers find them regularly. An elf has to
carry that for a millenium, not just a few decades. Only a rare few
(like Ruobhe -by choice- or the Queen of Rhuanach -by force-) will ever
keep the drive up to keep going.

Pieter Sleijpen

[Pieter Sleijpen]

DKEvermore@aol.com wrote:
>
> In a message dated 2/15/99 2:05:57 PM Central Standard Time, madfox@wxs.nl
> writes:
>
> > Most people seem to assume that every elf will be several centuries old,
> > but that sounds to me a little far fetched. I know that this is a
> > fantasy game, but lets take a look at RL science. One of the main
> > reasons evolution did not select for a long life, is the chance rate of
> > dying by some kind of freakish accident. In fact, I heard a scientist
> > state that if humans would become immortal, there still would be almost
> > no human older then 700 years. By that time they would have died due to
> > some unfortunate accident. While in Cerilia there are no cars and that
> > kind of things, I still think that most elves die before the end of
> > their first millenium. If not only for all those humans, goblins and
> > other dangerous creatures. One should also not forget that they do not
> > have clerics. Which means that if they get below 0 hp (if you use that
> > optiniol rule), they will almost certainly die.
> >

> Of course it's far fetched that elves are immortal and might be a 1000
> years old. That's the point of fantasy. Giant ants are impossible,
> too, without lungs, but that doesn't stop GMs from throwing them
> against the party instead of having them lying twitching as they
> slowly suffocate. Amazingly giants' hearts are only flesh and blood,
> yet manage to pump blood tens of feet against the force of gravity
> without exploding or giving out before the giant if 5 years old.
>

One thing first, giants are not impossible because of their lungs
(except maybe the real big ones). How else do you think the dinosaurs
survived? You are thinking about insects and other of their kinds, who
indeed can not survive past a certain size because of a lack of oxygen
(and with a higer carbon dioxide:oxigen ratio they could become larger).
The reasons giants would be impossible is due to back problems and I
have no problems immagining them having differnt material in their bones
and a different build then humans.

I can assure you that magic could explain a lot in my eyes, but not the
survival due to accidents. Unless you make your elven PC's less prone to
accidents...

(As a side note, immortality, immunity to disease and night vision would
not be to difficult to explain with science. Elves would also not be
that good at developing disease as a weapon, they would have quite a
difficulty understanding the concept.)

Pieter Sleijpen

[Pieter Sleijpen]

Tim Nutting wrote:


> I have argued time and again about the complete lack of realism
> displayed by the level progression system of AD&D. Simply put it does
> not work for average people. If the game were true to life then
> because I didn't go join the Navy SEALs I never could have learned to
> read, nor would I have acquired an AA in English, nor would I have
> acquired any computer skills. Modern vs. old? Think again, by the
> logic of AD&D, a master chef who worked for Reole himself would never
> have improved at his craft once he achieved the ripe old age of 15.
> That's like saying that the best cooks in the world can be found among
> the masterfully skilled and enormously dedicated artisans at the grill
> in McDonald's. Oh, and BTW, the cook could only be a cook, he could
> never learn to read, write, drive, ride a horse, shoot a bow, etc.

I use the PO: Skills&Powers proficiency system, including the character
points. This system allows exactly the kind of growth in skill, instead
of the "you have it OR not" from the old system. This system also talks
about the amount of CP's a skilled but non-leveled NPC could get. I also
allow people to train for this, just as the training action in the
Rulebook (to I have changed the time needed to raise the score by 1 a
little). Hence, old elves in my campaign might not be high level
warriors or wizards. They do have high scores in relevant skills like
tracking, wood carving, animal lore and so on and every human would be
dying to find an elven tutor (if someone tried to hard, they might
actually really die :-) )

Pieter Sleijpen

[David Sean Brown]

Ya know..I sort of clued into this about .00002 seconds after I sent the
post, and REALLY hoping no one would notice..doh! :)

Sean


> > Remember, that even at the turn of the century, life expectancy for the
> > average American Citizen was only about 40 years...
> >
> This would be a very appropriate comment, if we weren't discussing the
> most
> difficult for the DM race in Birthrigtht, the elves. Elves are immune
> to
> disease and aging effects. Every elf is effectively at their physical
> prime
> from the time they reach adulthood to the time they die.
>
> --
>

[Kenneth Gauck]

Since you were originally refering to elves, I do not see the connection
with MTV cartoons.
- -----Original Message-----
From: Pieter A de Jong
Date: Tuesday, February 16, 1999 9:34 AM

>Kenneth Gauck wrote:
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Pieter A de Jong
>> Date: Monday, February 15, 1999 4:27 PM
>> >.....stereotypical empty headed california valley girls.
>>
>> Appreciation of aethetics is not empty headed. Indeed it approaches
truth
>> more honestly than the material ever does.
>
>You are correct. I cannot say however, that appreciative of aethestics
>is the appropriated description for people who think Beavis and Butthead
>is the highest possible form of humor.

[Tim Nutting]

Because humans have access to quick and easy cure-alls presented by people
applying their faith. The means to cure any illness are readily available
to Cerilians, simply visit a priest. That the local priest might not have
the power to achieve the desired result is no different than discovering
your family doctor can't effectively do major cosmetic reconstruction.

There has been no real pressing need to invent new medicine, quite the
contrary to Earth. Here, every time we happen upon an new (to us) section
of the world and are exposed to diseases we know nothing about, or are
exposed to new mutating ones, we must struggle to find a cure. And yet, to
Cerilians, the cure is a simple matter of awaiting the attentions of the
local high priest or a very gifted and kind hearted noble (Great Healing is
an amazing blood power). I am certain that as time has progressed, medicine
has proven better and better, but simply put, necessity is the mother of
invention, and with no REAL necessity, no real need of advanced medicine, it
is not there.


Contrary to this statement, wizardly magic is NOT prevalent in Cerilia. Oh
the land is very certainly magical, but not in the way that Faerun or even
Oerth is. Many inhabitants of Diemed will grow up never seeing a goblin,
only hearing strange stories, but go to Halskapa, and you are likely to hear
that elves are fairy tales and don't exist anymore. Likewise, not every
regent can count on having a good dozen wizards at his disposal. As
presented, there aren't that many. So men have had to accomodate this lack
in other, more inventive methods. Dragons are gone, and flying mounts are
viturally nonexistant, yet your neighbor has wide access to a great many
catapults and big rocks, so the development of rounded towers and the
perpetual search of a better way to kill keeps on chugging.

One thing too, I think that we go a bit to far in calling certain cultures
of Cerilia "renaisance." Whilet McComb writes that Khinasi and Anuire are
renaisance cultures, I feel that refers to the internal structure of AD&D,
and it is a handy reference for looking at period divided equipment lists
and determining what is and is not available. This is not a true
representation of their cultural "progression". Technology develops
seperate of cultural revolution. Keep in mind that as recent as 200 years
ago in Anuire, the serf was still an underprivelaged class and completely
socially immobile.



Yes, it can be that, but it is not. To go further, the Sidhe IMC are
fantastic surgeons (comparatively), but they do not know the slightest about
curing diseases among themselves, it never came up. But broken bones and
cuts must exist to a great degree, especially if you take Simon Hawke's
description of the Sidhe of the Aelvinwode in "The Iron Throne" to heart.
Dosiere's elven companions during his and Michael's stay as guests shows a
few encounters of elves "frolicking" with swords and very little armor,
vaguely shrugging when a cut is dilivered. As the elf explaines to him,
they are skilled enough to not seriously wound one another.




No, I didn't think that is was... We never change, do we?



Absolutley right. The game does a great job of showing adventurers for the
heroic types that they are, and that's why I play it! :) I have had
players who "want something new" and "want more realism" and when they get
there hands on that cook, they are singularly dissappointed to find out just
how boring this person is to be in the context of an adventure game.

I allow characters to use the Training action to acquire proficiencies even
if they don't have slots available. It uses the system to good effect.
Likewise, I follow Player's Option on the idea that not all 0-levels have 6
hit points...

Excellent comments Ken! You got me thinking there above about the medicine
issue, thankx!

Tim Nutting
zero@wiredweb.com

[Tim Nutting]

Ummmmm.... why the hell not? Think about that statement for a minute.
Translate it to "I have lived 1,000 years and in that time have cared so
little about the world around me and failed to pay even the slightest bit of
attention to my life experiences and therefore am no wiser or smarter than
when I was young, dumb, and full of ___"

I'm sorry I hit this with such a lack of tact, but the only possible sense
the statement makes is that the only way to get wiser is to lose stat
points... well by golly, hand me the axe and razor blade and I'll start
dropping STR and DEX and CON! ;)

Later guys...
Tim Nutting

[Tim Nutting]

Immortality in all its scientific aspects I have no desire to delve into
here. Read Dr. Ben Bova's book, very good and very insightful, especially
on the social side effects imagined.

Immunity to disease. By our understanding, IMMUNITY is impossible. There
are methods to make someone incredibly resistant, but recently it is being
shown that not even the immunization drugs we use today are fully effective.
In essence you could boost a person's white blood cell count to such a
superhuman level that his immune system would be incredibly effective (heck,
it might even decide the bacteria in yogurt is bad for you and kill it
too...), but such a person would be no more immune to disease than I would.
It would only require a sufficiently deadly and strong disease to affect
such a mutant.

The night vision of the sidhe of cerilia is much more scientifically
acceptable than infravision. Infrared (ture IR sight) requires that the
viewing unit be cooled significantly to avoid the problematic bleed of body
heet. An AIM-9M Sidewinder uses an argon cooling device to allow the
infrared tracking head to more easily spot engine exhaust, or the Sun ;)
Sight extending into the ultraviolet spectrum requires less modification,
but to realistically duplicate the extent to which elves have it (a single
candle lights an auditorium completely...) the organs would seem to be
totally inapropriate for perception of the "normal" spectrum.


I take issue, Pieter, with the last statement. I cannot myself percieve
most emenations of the electromagnetic field that surrounds our planet, and
yet RADAR was invented in an era where Mach 1 didn't even exist, because it
was impossible. Having no direct experience or perception does not mean
that one cannot study an object. I cannot percieve an atom without special
aid, and yet our science revolves around them and lower structures. Sidhe
could just as easily turn to animal expermintation as humans did.

And folks, a Chaotic Evil elf is still CE. He won't give a fuzz about the
cuty fuzzy bunny, and better yet, why can't they experiment on goblins and
humans? Your comment insinuates that because they can't get sick, they are
too stupid to look at the nature they revere.

Also, we've all been going on about averages, right? I have a die-hard
rules lawer that thinks that every NPC has a stat of 8 cause it's average,
and that is that. Well, if any of you think thusly, understand that an
average is taken from the possible range of results. I don't have my books,
so you all feel free to correct my numbers, but if an Elf range of INT stat
is from 8 to 19, then his average intelligence wiould be 14, while the human
with the range of 3 to 18 would have a gross average of 10.5. On average
I'd say that elves sort of rock the humans world as far as science goes.

Tim Nutting
zero@wiredweb.com

[Kenneth Gauck]

>I'm sorry I hit this with such a lack of tact, but the only possible sense
>the statement makes is that the only way to get wiser is to lose stat
>points...

Its a crazy idea tied to the notion of game balance. Since Intelligence
refers to apptitude, not proficency, it in fact makes no sense that it
should climb over time. Proficencies may accumulate, as one learns new
things, and experience has its own special reward in D&D. But the idea that
stats should change is a primitive facet of D&D which pre-dates certain
later concepts in the game which are much better suited to modeling the
benifits of age.

Kenneth Gauck
c558382@earthlink.net

[Kenneth Gauck]

> I don't have my books, so you all feel free to correct my numbers, but if
>an Elf range of INT stat is from 8 to 19, then his average intelligence
> [would] be 14, while the human with the range of 3 to 18 would have a
>gross average of 10.5. On average I'd say that elves sort of rock the
>humans world as far as science goes.
>

These figures apply the the pool from which adventurers are drawn, and not
the general population. We must also keep in mind the intended effects of
game mechanics when discussing them. When rolling for a character a 3d6 is
still used, a result lower than an 8 in INT simply disqualifies an elf. No
special die combinations are used to calculate elven intelligence, hence one
imagines that the curve for elven INT is the same for humans, shifted once
to the right for racial bonus, and that the bottom results are simply not
present. See rough ascii art below.

Human Elf
*** ***
* * * *
* * * *
* * * *
** ** * **
3 7 18 4 8 19

So we see that the average elven intelligence is 11.5, rather than 10.5, and
there are just no idiots among the adventuring classes. What describes the
general population, or why statistics is so poorly understood remains up for
grabs.

Kenneth Gauck
c558382@earthlink.net

[Tim Nutting]

I disagree. I think that the listed stat range is what is found commonly
among the society. If the game is to be played with adventurers of truly
heroic proportions, then the mechanics change from 3d6 to something else
entirely, take your pick of the other 9 methods or make one yourself.

In actuality, the original Unearthed Arcana tome dealt with the concept that
your character's class changed the dice you rolled, which I liked
tremendously.

Tim Nutting

[Pieter A de Jong]

Tim Nutting wrote:
>

> I take issue, Pieter, with the last statement.

Hey, be specific. Are you starting something with Pieter Sleipjen, me,
or both of us :).

> Tim Nutting
> zero@wiredweb.com
>
> ************************************************** *************************
> > - --

Pieter A de Jong
Graduate Mechanical Engineering Student
University of Saskatchewan, Saskatoon, Canada

[Tim Nutting]

>Hey, be specific. Are you starting something with Pieter Sleipjen, me,
>or both of us :).


I am not "starting" anything. "Take issue" is not a statement of grave
offense or anything of the like, simply another way of saying "I disagree"

:)

And I was responding to the Pieter who comented that elves could not develop
or understand diseases because they could not directly experience such.

Tim Nutting

[Pieter Sleijpen]

Tim Nutting wrote:
>
> >Hey, be specific. Are you starting something with Pieter Sleipjen, me,
> >or both of us :).
>
> I am not "starting" anything. "Take issue" is not a statement of grave
> offense or anything of the like, simply another way of saying "I disagree"
>
> :)
>
> And I was responding to the Pieter who comented that elves could not develop
> or understand diseases because they could not directly experience such.
>
> Tim Nutting

No offense taken. And I thought something along those lines immidiatly
after sending the reply. That is what you get now and then when replying
late at night.

Pieter Sleijpen