elven victory?

[Kenneth Gauck]

The rules do make this difficult to understand, but it is because they leave
out the effect of regular (non the battle spell) healing magic. If a domain
turn is one month, how many cure light wounds (and better), cure disease,
and so forth are being cast by even low level priests? To my mind alone
this is the margain of difference. Battle spells are dramatic, but pale in
comparison to the longer more comprehensive effect of regular magic
everyday, and here the priest has the advantage. The elven mages can only
cast their best spells during engagements, and they avoid some of the most
powerful spells listed because of the collateral distruction to the land.
Two second level priests with a 200 man formation can cast 120 cure lights
per month, compared to zero in an elven army, that is quite a difference.
It might mean that a human force could attack several times over while an
elven force grew progessivly weaker, even as it might "win" each engagement.
Combine this effect, where humans bounce back from injury as soon as the
priest gets to them, with the superior reproduction rate of humans, and it
becomes clear that humans would win the war.

Kenneth Gauck
c558382@earthlink.net

- -----Original Message-----
From: Pieter A de Jong
To: birthright@MPGN.COM
Date: Friday, February 12, 1999 10:41 AM
Subject: Re: [BIRTHRIGHT] - Re: [MBirthright] Re: Wardings


>Pieter Sleijpen wrote:
>>
>
>>
>> Which requires the same things. And only elves seems to have enough of
>> both. I have seen an elven nation destroy a human nation within two
>> actions. Makes me wonder how in hells name the elves were ever defeated!
>>
>> (Besides, any mage I currently DM on the PBEM is of high enough level to
>> cast the spell, has got enough sources to cast the thing and also the
>> backing of an army -that is Erik Danig, the Fae, Rhuobhe, Bacaele (he
>> will have it anyway)-. Seems not to be that rare, now does it?)
>>
>Thank you very much. You have confirmed my beliefs about how the humans
>won the elven-human wars. It is simply ridiculous that the humans would
>defeat the elven nations without direct divine intervention.
>--
>

[Pieter A de Jong]

Kenneth Gauck wrote:
>
> The rules do make this difficult to understand, but it is because they leave
> out the effect of regular (non the battle spell) healing magic. If a domain
> turn is one month, how many cure light wounds (and better), cure disease,
> and so forth are being cast by even low level priests? To my mind alone
> this is the margain of difference. Battle spells are dramatic, but pale in
> comparison to the longer more comprehensive effect of regular magic
> everyday, and here the priest has the advantage. The elven mages can only
> cast their best spells during engagements, and they avoid some of the most
> powerful spells listed because of the collateral distruction to the land.
> Two second level priests with a 200 man formation can cast 120 cure lights
> per month, compared to zero in an elven army, that is quite a difference.
> It might mean that a human force could attack several times over while an
> elven force grew progessivly weaker, even as it might "win" each engagement.
> Combine this effect, where humans bounce back from injury as soon as the
> priest gets to them, with the superior reproduction rate of humans, and it
> becomes clear that humans would win the war.
>
> Kenneth Gauck
> c558382@earthlink.net
>
I have great difficulty with this thesis. There are mage spells that
are
very useful over long durations. Consider Armor, magic
mouth, continual light, wyvern watch, and when you get high level
conjured creatures.

Also, 80%+ of casualties are caused when one side of a battle breaks.
With
battle magic an elven force will almost alway rout the opposing force
intially. As they then hold the field, the human wounded, who can't
retreat
faster than elven forces can advance will be overrun. Given that I
can't
see the elven forces doing the POW thing, the clerics aren't ever going
to
reach the human wounded, as the human wounded are going to be dead.

The real reason why the elves shouldn't lose is immortality. Basically,
humans start to die off before reaching really high levels of
experience.
Therefore, elven mages are going to be much more skilled in general than
the human priests. It means that the cumulative impact of elven magic
will be much more destructive than the priests can handle.


- --

Pieter A de Jong
Graduate Mechanical Engineering Student
University of Saskatchewan, Saskatoon, Canada

[Pieter Sleijpen]

How quick do units heal lost hits anyway?

Pieter Sleijpen

[Kenneth Gauck]

The elves in the published materials don't appear to be all that high level.
Certainly not to overawe human priests.

Second, I would not expect elven armies to be routing the enemy. The last
battle I gamed out had the goblins (not the best war cards in the deck)
giving the elves a run for their money. I would expect they do as well as
anyone else.

Perhaps you are adding something to the game, which others are not which
results in your game having something other than the low-magic feel which is
pretty commonly mentioned on this list.

Kenneth Gauck
c558382@earthlink.net

- -----Original Message-----
From: Pieter A de Jong
To: birthright@MPGN.COM
Date: Friday, February 12, 1999 5:48 PM
Subject: Re: [BIRTHRIGHT] - Re: elven victory?


>I have great difficulty with this thesis. There are mage spells that
>are
>very useful over long durations. Consider Armor, magic
>mouth, continual light, wyvern watch, and when you get high level
>conjured creatures.
>
>Also, 80%+ of casualties are caused when one side of a battle breaks.
>With
>battle magic an elven force will almost alway rout the opposing force
>intially. As they then hold the field, the human wounded, who can't
>retreat
>faster than elven forces can advance will be overrun. Given that I
>can't
>see the elven forces doing the POW thing, the clerics aren't ever going
>to
>reach the human wounded, as the human wounded are going to be dead.
>
>The real reason why the elves shouldn't lose is immortality. Basically,
>humans start to die off before reaching really high levels of
>experience.
>Therefore, elven mages are going to be much more skilled in general than
>the human priests. It means that the cumulative impact of elven magic
>will be much more destructive than the priests can handle.
>
>
>--
>

[Kenneth Gauck]

- -----Original Message-----
From: Pieter Sleijpen
Date: Friday, February 12, 1999 6:41 PM

>How quick do units heal lost hits anyway?
>
>Pieter Sleijpen

I assume each hit represents 10% of the unit killed and another 10-20%
injured. The only way to actually destroy a unit is in after battle combat
(pursuit). Most of the damage of a hit is to morale. The morale system in
the game represents whether a unit will stay and fight or rally. The moral
represented in the number of hits reflects how well they fight. Units can
go over to the defensive and do no damage to the enemy, afraid to take more
damage. This is the cause of lower combat effectiveness after a hit is
taken, even though only 10% of the unit is killed.

So if a unit takes a hit, after the battle I assume it is back up to full
strength in effectivness, and not it remains at 90% in terms of numbers.
Once a units falls to 70% after a combat, it now fights as though one hit
were permenantly removed. 40%, two hits. So a hit represents 20-40 men who
lost some hp's, and I assume every unit has about two second level priests
(all faiths in Cerilia have at least minor access to Healing). This would
require 5-10 days of casting to get them back up to speed.

These are my standard assumptions. Units accompanied by higher level
priests, or that include paladins with the ability to lay on hands, or the
characters with the blood ability to heal are just sauce.

Kenneth Gauck
c558382@earthlink.net

[Jim Cooper]

Kenneth Gauck wrote:
> Two second level priests with a 200 man formation can cast 120 cure lights per month<

This is what I'm talking about keeping BR low magic. My characters
would kill for their Power to give them even one cure light wounds
spell. The Cerilian gods have much more important things to consider
than listening to the incessant begging from the many priests that
worship them, constantly barraging them with "Can I have this," "Can I
have that". Haelyn, for instance, wouldn't be giving out near 120 cure
lights per month to his entire 'realm' of worshippers, even when he is
feeling generous. Perhaps a dozen of his favourite priests throughout
the breadth of Cerilia (or even Aebrynis) would get, perhaps, 1 or 2
curative spells in a month. Period.

Now my players respect the fact that they are so favoured as to receive
*any* spell a Power grants them, that it truly is a boon to have this
Power's attention.

Then again, I haven't made a god(dess)'s power dependant on the number
of worshippers they have (which I have always thought pretty silly, buy
hey, that's just me!), so this obviously changes a Power's worldview.
:D

Cheers,
Darren

[Jim Cooper]

Pieter A de Jong wrote:
> The real reason why the elves shouldn't lose is immortality. Basically, humans start to die off before reaching really high levels of
> experience. Therefore, elven mages are going to be much more skilled in general than the human priests. It means that the cumulative impact of elven magic will be much more destructive than the priests can handle.<

I would favour this view. Unfortunately, there are many more humans in
BR that are above 9th level than any other race.

AND, why the heck are goblins and orogs always portrayed as weak?!? Let
me see, I thing the King of Thurazor is the highest humanoid at 7th
level ... I could be mistaken, but ... that's how I think all the other
races should be treated in comparison to the elves (elves much higher
than any other NPC, depending on the elf's age of course).

Cheers,
Darren

[Jim Cooper]

Kenneth Gauck wrote:
> Second, I would not expect elven armies to be routing the enemy. The last battle I gamed out had the goblins (not the best war cards in the deck) giving the elves a run for their money. I would expect they do as well as anyone else.<

Heh. This reminds me of a fond little experience with the BR warcard
rules IMC.

I once had a mere *2* Anuirean LEVY units ROUT and DESTROY a unit of
Knights of Haelyn. Boy was that hilarious! (Every -3 column for the
levvies was a H result, and the Knights at the +3 column only ever got 1
H result, the rest were "-"!!!).

Woo Hoo!

Its possible boys and girls! :) More power to the commoners! ;)

Cheers,
Darren

[Trizt]

Kenneth Gauck wrote:

> The rules do make this difficult to understand, but it is because they leave
> out the effect of regular (non the battle spell) healing magic. If a domain
> turn is one month, how many cure light wounds (and better), cure disease,
> and so forth are being cast by even low level priests?
The number is quite limited of those preists who can cast spells.

> Two second level priests with a 200 man formation can cast 120 cure lights
> per month, compared to zero in an elven army, that is quite a difference.
The elven army can use herbs. Don't forget that two elven arrows may end
those two priests.

> It might mean that a human force could attack several times over while an
> elven force grew progessivly weaker, even as it might "win" each engagement.
The elves would use the night to attack humans, as they can see while
the humans would be blind.

> with the superior reproduction rate of humans, and it
> becomes clear that humans would win the war.
Elves could increase their speed of reproduction by increasing the
number of halfelves, but the new elves from matings of half-elves and
elves would be somewhat different from the original elves (and I don't
think they would sink that low that they would mate with humans in large
numbers in the first place). Don't forget that most sulvan (spl?)
creatures are allied with the elves, and some of them have great powers.


//Trizt

[Pieter Sleijpen]

Jim Cooper wrote:
>
> Kenneth Gauck wrote:
> > Second, I would not expect elven armies to be routing the enemy. The last battle I gamed out had the goblins (not the best war cards in the deck) giving the elves a run for their money. I would expect they do as well as anyone else.<
>
> Heh. This reminds me of a fond little experience with the BR warcard
> rules IMC.
>
> I once had a mere *2* Anuirean LEVY units ROUT and DESTROY a unit of
> Knights of Haelyn. Boy was that hilarious! (Every -3 column for the
> levvies was a H result, and the Knights at the +3 column only ever got 1
> H result, the rest were "-"!!!).

Oh, I once nearly obliterated 8 gnoll infantry with 5 levies, 1 archer
and 1 adventurer. Exactly for the same reason and when the levies are
only hit by the H results, they can fight for a long time.

Pieter

[Pieter Sleijpen]

Jim Cooper wrote:
>
> Pieter A de Jong wrote:
> > The real reason why the elves shouldn't lose is immortality.
> > Basically, humans start to die off before reaching really high
> > levels of experience. Therefore, elven mages are going to be much
> > more skilled in general than the human priests. It means that the
> > cumulative impact of elven magic will be much more destructive than
> > the priests can handle.
>
> I would favour this view. Unfortunately, there are many more humans
> in BR that are above 9th level than any other race.
>
> AND, why the heck are goblins and orogs always portrayed as weak?!?
> Let me see, I thing the King of Thurazor is the highest humanoid at
> 7th level ... I could be mistaken, but ... that's how I think all the
> other races should be treated in comparison to the elves (elves much
> higher than any other NPC, depending on the elf's age of course).
>

TSR always has portrayed humans as having a stronger drive to get
further in their patethic short lives. That is why some of them can
reach such high levels. While elves totaly lack the drive to specialise
in an adventurers class (most of them anyway). They hate to fight or do
other adventurers stuff. Personally I find this idea not even that
stupid and they do hold most of the most powerful wizards in the game.
The few humans who are more powerful in this aspect are either liches
(the Magian and probably el-Sheighul) or awnsheghlien. The only
exception I have found on this is the White Sorceress in Merasaf.

As for the goblins and orogs, they are constantly plagued by infighting.
They never rise high, because they are killed by others before they are
impossible to challenge. In Cities of the Sun there is a 9th-level
fighter gnoll in the lands of the Black Spear Tribes and the orogs of
the Iran Hand Tribes include a 8th-level fighter and priest.

Pieter Sleijpen

[Trizt]

Pieter Sleijpen wrote:

> How quick do units heal lost hits anyway?

First, some of them has died in the battle... if they have been overrun
by the enemy, then the dead will number around 50%. Otherwise the loss
will only bee around 10% of the unit.

Around 10% will have fleed the field, if they will come back depends
much on the armys leader and the population in the area (if human
soldiers flees battle in an elven forset, then kiss those guy's
goodbye).

Around 25% could be counted as wounded, they will only get back their
hitponts if they get healing spells, the wounds are treated with herbs
and real rest in a comfotable place (thise are hard to find in a
warzone). Don't forget that thise wounded are those who in first place
will die in sickdom (exception are elves who don't get sicknesses).

Without new soldiers the unit will never get back in its original
strength and withut real rest the unit will never get back to 50% of it
's original strength.


//Trizt

[Jim Cooper]

Pieter Sleijpen wrote:
> As for the goblins and orogs, they are constantly plagued by infighting. They never rise high, because they are killed by others before they are impossible to challenge.<

You'd think, though, that all that infighting would pile up the
experience points faster than any other race who are more socially
'lay-backed'. Mere chance would say that there would be the odd lucky
scur in goblin/gnoll/orog society who was stronger than most that would
be able to hold onto his title more than a year or two! By that time,
the guy would be so far ahead in experience that no one else would be
competition any longer; not to mention, I don't think goblins or orogs
are stupid, either. A leader surviving that long out to learn how to
avoid a knife in the back, you'd think ...

The strong get stronger, and the weak get weaker. Survival of the
fittest, no?

Cheers,
Darren

[Kenneth Gauck]

Replying to Trizt :
>The number is quite limited of those preists who can cast spells.
>
If 1% of the popualtion are "classed" a muster producing two priests of the
second level of ability when a unit is formed is hardly unexpected.

>The elven army can use herbs. Don't forget that two elven arrows may end
>those two priests.
>
So can the humans, and humans with the ability to purchase from the priest
list of proficencies will be able to afford Healing much more often. After
all, Herbalism is just a modifier for the Healing proficency.

>The elves would use the night to attack humans, as they can see while
>the humans would be blind.
>
Or perhaps they'll wander around in the cool forest hoping to get withing 60
yards of the humans.

>Don't forget that most sulvan (spl?) creatures are allied with
>the elves, and some of them have great powers.
>
Most are not found away from their dwellings, and are likewise pretty
uncommon.

Kenneth Gauck
c558382@earthlink.net

[Kenneth Gauck]

>
>You'd think, though, that all that infighting would pile up the
>experience points faster than any other race who are more socially
>'lay-backed'.

This would only happen if the mode is non-leathal combat. Otherwise
everyone just destroys everyone else. Compare by analysis other societies
of mutual destruction.

[Carole A Lipinski]

- -----Original Message-----
From: Kenneth Gauck
To: birthright@MPGN.COM
Date: Saturday, February 13, 1999 3:40 PM
Subject: Re: [BIRTHRIGHT] - Re: elven victory?


>>Elves are lacking the two things that give humans the edge though,
ruthlessness and breeding capacity. With rare exception most elves would
not be into all out war or even scorched earth warfare. Humans would do
what ever it took to win. Also humans breed like rabbits so the elves can
not compete there at all.
>>

[Trizt]

Kenneth Gauck wrote:

> If 1% of the popualtion are "classed" a muster producing two priests of the
> second level of ability when a unit is formed is hardly unexpected.
Of those 1% would a fraction only be preists (most would be fighters and
thieves), and how many of those fat guy's would want to change their
secure life in the temples to a dangerous one in the battle fields?
You could make a expriment, ask your friends if they would want to go to
Kosova and fight for either UCKk or the Serbs.

> >The elves would use the night to attack humans, as they can see while
> >the humans would be blind.
> Or perhaps they'll wander around in the cool forest hoping to get withing 60
> yards of the humans.
Don't forget that an army makes alot of sound and during nights you will
hear them from a great distance and those camp fires will be like
lighthouses for the elves.

> >Don't forget that most sulvan (spl?) creatures are allied with
> >the elves, and some of them have great powers.
> Most are not found away from their dwellings, and are likewise pretty
> uncommon.
They will defend them selves.


//Trizt

[Kenneth Gauck]

Again replying to Trizt,
>
>Of those 1% would a fraction only be preists (most would be fighters and
>thieves), and how many of those fat guy's would want to change their
>secure life in the temples to a dangerous one in the battle fields?
>You could make a expriment, ask your friends if they would want to go to
>Kosova and fight for either UCKk or the Serbs.
>
And yet there are more that 2 second level warriors in a unit, also serving
a specialized function. Shall we reflect on the very meaning of the word
muster? This is not a random collection of people. Likewise, look at the
unit of scouts, which requires guild holdings to muster, and has
charcteristics of a theif unit. Surely there is where are theif friends
are. And finally, are not knights more prevelant in a unit of knights than
in the general population? Is it really so unreasonable to assume that you
are four times more likely to find a priest here, than at random among the
people? I bet there are places, like a temple, where they collect in even
greater frequency.


>> >The elves would use the night to attack humans, as they can see while
>> >the humans would be blind.
>> Or perhaps they'll wander around in the cool forest hoping to get withing
60
>> yards of the humans.
>Don't forget that an army makes alot of sound and during nights you will
>hear them from a great distance and those camp fires will be like
>lighthouses for the elves.
>
Unless the humans have heard of camp discipline. The Romans certainly knew
about it and "there was no pip nor prattle in Pompey's camp."

>> >Don't forget that most sulvan (spl?) creatures are allied with
>> >the elves, and some of them have great powers.
>> Most are not found away from their dwellings, and are likewise pretty
>> uncommon.
>They will defend them selves.

But they are unlikely to be on the battlefield with an elven army.

Kenneth Gauck
c558382@earthlink.net

[the Falcon]

> I have great difficulty with this thesis. There are mage spells that
> are
> very useful over long durations. Consider Armor, magic
> mouth, continual light, wyvern watch, and when you get high level
> conjured creatures.

_wyvern_watch_ is a priest spell... thought I'd just mention that... and
magic mouth isn't much of a combat spell, is it?

[DKEvermore@aol.co]

In a message dated 2/12/99 6:38:29 PM Central Standard Time, madfox@wxs.nl
writes:

> How quick do units heal lost hits anyway?
>
> Pieter Sleijpen
>
According to the rules, any surviving unit will be at full hits for the next
battle (even if it's in the same week). Why?

The answer is simple. Most units are filled with guys that have 6 hit points.
That'll take 3 days of rest to heal up from near-death or 6 days if there's no
one there to help the healing. In AD&D, you don't have to wait months for
healing. Not realistic, but, hey, PCs get away with it! ;)

Anyway, yet another reason why I don't use AD&D to play Birthright anymore.

- -DKE

[Pieter A de Jong]

Pieter Sleijpen wrote:
>
> How quick do units heal lost hits anyway?
>
I do not think that there is a rule published for that. However,
assuming that most members of a unit are 0 or 1st level fighters,
they have between 5 and 10 HP. This means that they can take at most
9 HP of damage before dying. As standard AD&D rules are that you
recover 1 hp/day,+ 1 hp/day for competent healers, + 1 hp/day for
complete rest. I would suggest therefore that it takes at most 9 days
for a unit to heal completely, assuming that it did not take enough
casualties to require reforming the unit (ie what casualties it did
take can be replaced from the reserves). This figure of 9 days is very
close to one war move. Therefore, it seems likely that units recover
completely between war moves, especially when you consider surgeons,
priests, etc.
While the above is somewhat unrealistic, it is simple and will do for
game play. However, the effect of losing battles should be considered
on the morale of the units involved.

- --

Pieter A de Jong
Graduate Mechanical Engineering Student
University of Saskatchewan, Saskatoon, Canada

[Pieter A de Jong]

the Falcon wrote:
>
> > I have great difficulty with this thesis. There are mage spells that
> > are
> > very useful over long durations. Consider Armor, magic
> > mouth, continual light, wyvern watch, and when you get high level
> > conjured creatures.
>
> _wyvern_watch_ is a priest spell... thought I'd just mention that... and
> magic mouth isn't much of a combat spell, is it?
>
Sorry, I got my spells mixed up. Sepia Snake Sigil is what I should
have
written. As for magic mouth, consider the following. Cast it on a
spear to whisper "danger" whenever a non-elven humanoid creature comes
within 90'. Kinda makes ambushes a lot harder to perform. It makes a
very nice method of securing fortications.

- --

Pieter A de Jong
Graduate Mechanical Engineering Student
University of Saskatchewan, Saskatoon, Canada

[Pieter A de Jong]

Carole A Lipinski wrote:
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Kenneth Gauck
> To: birthright@MPGN.COM
> Date: Saturday, February 13, 1999 3:40 PM
> Subject: Re: [BIRTHRIGHT] - Re: elven victory?
>
> >>Elves are lacking the two things that give humans the edge though,
> ruthlessness and breeding capacity. With rare exception most elves would
> not be into all out war or even scorched earth warfare. Humans would do
> what ever it took to win. Also humans breed like rabbits so the elves can
> not compete there at all.
> >>
>
Well, IMC, yes the humans have a faster rate of reproduction (much
faster). However, in ruthlessness, the elves are easily as bad as
the humans. These are not cuddly, friendly elves, whose only
concern is frolicking in the moonlight. If you have ever read the
comic "Poison Elves" by Drew Hayes, you've probably got the idea.

And anyhow, if what wins in warfare is ruthlessness and birthrate,
how come the goblins don't own all of cerilia?
- --

Pieter A de Jong
Graduate Mechanical Engineering Student
University of Saskatchewan, Saskatoon, Canada

[Pieter A de Jong]

Kenneth Gauck wrote:
>
> The elves in the published materials don't appear to be all that high level.
> Certainly not to overawe human priests.

I know. I find this very stupid. On the other hand, the published
supplements rarely consider unblooded characters. I will suggest that a
smaller proportion of the elven population is blooded. The elves don't
reproduce as fast, and therefore the blood doesn't spread as much.
Considering the non-blooded population, I would suggest that there is
plenty of rooom for high level characters.

> Second, I would not expect elven armies to be routing the enemy. The last
> battle I gamed out had the goblins (not the best war cards in the deck)
> giving the elves a run for their money. I would expect they do as well as
> anyone else.

That really depends how many battle spells you hand out. I will agree
that
the elven war cards aren't that powerful. If on the other hand, the
elves
have 2 wizards with battle spells attached to every unit, that will
result
in the elves winning most battles, and usually routing their enemies.
BTW,
this is not a high level of wizards. Every elf is classed (MM), they
can
only be fighters, rangers, wizards, thieves and bards. And every elf
meets
the attribute requirements to be a wizard.

> Perhaps you are adding something to the game, which others are not which
> results in your game having something other than the low-magic feel which is
> pretty commonly mentioned on this list.

Indeed, as I have stated many times on this list, I run a significantly
higher magic birthright campaign than most people do, as I look at the
published material and use the logical results of what I see presented.


> Kenneth Gauck
> c558382@earthlink.net


Pieter A de Jong
Graduate Mechanical Engineering Student
University of Saskatchewan, Saskatoon, Canada

[Pieter A de Jong]

Jim Cooper wrote:
>
> Kenneth Gauck wrote:
> > Second, I would not expect elven armies to be routing the enemy. The last battle I gamed out had the goblins (not the best war cards in the deck) giving the elves a run for their money. I would expect they do as well as anyone else.<
>
> Heh. This reminds me of a fond little experience with the BR warcard
> rules IMC.
>
> I once had a mere *2* Anuirean LEVY units ROUT and DESTROY a unit of
> Knights of Haelyn. Boy was that hilarious! (Every -3 column for the
> levvies was a H result, and the Knights at the +3 column only ever got 1
> H result, the rest were "-"!!!).
>
> Woo Hoo!
>
> Its possible boys and girls! :) More power to the commoners! ;)
>
Congratulations on pointing out one of the more ridiculous hole in the
war card system. I would suggest trying the War Machine rules from the
D&D compagion set. They are much quicker than war card battles, and
mostly produce more realistic results (although that last isn't hard!).
- --

Pieter A de Jong
Graduate Mechanical Engineering Student
University of Saskatchewan, Saskatoon, Canada

[Pieter A de Jong]

Pieter Sleijpen wrote:
>
> Jim Cooper wrote:
> >
> > Pieter A de Jong wrote:
> > > The real reason why the elves shouldn't lose is immortality.
> > > Basically, humans start to die off before reaching really high
> > > levels of experience. Therefore, elven mages are going to be much
> > > more skilled in general than the human priests. It means that the
> > > cumulative impact of elven magic will be much more destructive than
> > > the priests can handle.
> >
> > I would favour this view. Unfortunately, there are many more humans
> > in BR that are above 9th level than any other race.
> >
> > AND, why the heck are goblins and orogs always portrayed as weak?!?
> > Let me see, I thing the King of Thurazor is the highest humanoid at
> > 7th level ... I could be mistaken, but ... that's how I think all the
> > other races should be treated in comparison to the elves (elves much
> > higher than any other NPC, depending on the elf's age of course).
> >
>
> TSR always has portrayed humans as having a stronger drive to get
> further in their patethic short lives. That is why some of them can
> reach such high levels. While elves totaly lack the drive to specialise
> in an adventurers class (most of them anyway). They hate to fight or do
> other adventurers stuff. Personally I find this idea not even that
> stupid and they do hold most of the most powerful wizards in the game.
> The few humans who are more powerful in this aspect are either liches
> (the Magian and probably el-Sheighul) or awnsheghlien. The only
> exception I have found on this is the White Sorceress in Merasaf.
>
I would at this point say, so what. Assume that elves gain experience
at one fifth the rate humans do, and lets see what happens. The human
lives till 76 (extremely old in medieval times). Starting at 16, this is
60 years to gain experience. The elf at a 1/5th rate gain, takes 300
to gain the same amount of experience. The elf is now 400 years old.
It
has been 1500 years since the last major elven die-off (Diesmaar and the
chaos that followed). Any elf born within 300 years of Diesmaar has
1200
years to gain experience. And is therefore, 3 times as experienced as a
nearly any human, and is not plagued by arthritis and a heart condition.
Rather, he is in his prime years, and will be until something kills him.

Finally, I have great difficulty with chopping the experience point gain
rate by so much. Nowhere in the published literature does it suggest
that
elven (or other demihuman) PC's should get less experience points for
the
same feats than humans do.


Pieter A de Jong
Graduate Mechanical Engineering Student
University of Saskatchewan, Saskatoon, Canada

[Pieter A de Jong]

Kenneth Gauck wrote:
>
>
> >The elves would use the night to attack humans, as they can see while
> >the humans would be blind.
> >
> Or perhaps they'll wander around in the cool forest hoping to get withing 60
> yards of the humans.
>
Hey where did this 60 yard thing come from. It's not infravision, it's
starlight vision unlike standard AD&D elves, and doesn't have a precise
distance limit.



Pieter A de Jong
Graduate Mechanical Engineering Student
University of Saskatchewan, Saskatoon, Canada

[Sindre Berg]

At 09:48 15.02.99 -0600, you wrote:
>Jim Cooper wrote:
>>
>> Kenneth Gauck wrote:
>> > Second, I would not expect elven armies to be routing the enemy. The
>last battle I gamed out had the goblins (not the best war cards in the deck)
>giving the elves a run for their money. I would expect they do as well as
>anyone else.<
>>
>> Heh. This reminds me of a fond little experience with the BR warcard
>> rules IMC.
>>
>> I once had a mere *2* Anuirean LEVY units ROUT and DESTROY a unit of
>> Knights of Haelyn. Boy was that hilarious! (Every -3 column for the
>> levvies was a H result, and the Knights at the +3 column only ever got 1
>> H result, the rest were "-"!!!).
>>
>> Woo Hoo!
>>
>> Its possible boys and girls! :) More power to the commoners! ;)
>>
>Congratulations on pointing out one of the more ridiculous hole in the
>war card system. I would suggest trying the War Machine rules from the
>D&D compagion set. They are much quicker than war card battles, and
>mostly produce more realistic results (although that last isn't hard!).
>--
>

[Trizt]

Kenneth Gauck wrote:

> And yet there are more that 2 second level warriors in a unit, also serving
> a specialized function.
You will find tthose on the elven side too

> Shall we reflect on the very meaning of the word
> muster? This is not a random collection of people.
Don't forget, the state and the church aren't the same thing, the king
can't force the priesthood to fight for him, while the other way is
true.

> >Don't forget that an army makes alot of sound and during nights you will
> >hear them from a great distance and those camp fires will be like
> >lighthouses for the elves.
> Unless the humans have heard of camp discipline. The Romans certainly knew
> about it and "there was no pip nor prattle in Pompey's camp."
Elven scouts would prolly find them anyhow.

> >> >Don't forget that most sulvan (spl?) creatures are allied with
> >> >the elves, and some of them have great powers.
> >> Most are not found away from their dwellings, and are likewise pretty
> >> uncommon.
> >They will defend them selves.
> But they are unlikely to be on the battlefield with an elven army.
Many unlucky humans could die a long time before reashing the battle
field.

//Trizt


"Let the humans die!"

[Pieter Sleijpen]

Pieter A de Jong wrote:
> Every elf is classed (MM), they can only be fighters, rangers,
> wizards, thieves and bards. And every elf meets the attribute
> requirements to be a wizard.

Not in my campaign. Most elves are just 0th-level, with a lot of
proficiencies. That statement just reminds me of D&D, where every elf
was a fighter/mage.

Pieter Sleijpen

[Pieter A de Jong]

Pieter Sleijpen wrote:
>
> Pieter A de Jong wrote:
> > Every elf is classed (MM), they can only be fighters, rangers,
> > wizards, thieves and bards. And every elf meets the attribute
> > requirements to be a wizard.
>
> Not in my campaign. Most elves are just 0th-level, with a lot of
> proficiencies. That statement just reminds me of D&D, where every elf
> was a fighter/mage.
>
Fine by me. I just figure that given how long they live, they'll pick
up something sooner or later.
- --

Pieter A de Jong
Graduate Mechanical Engineering Student
University of Saskatchewan, Saskatoon, Canada

[Pieter Sleijpen]

Pieter A de Jong wrote:
>
> Pieter Sleijpen wrote:
> >
> > Pieter A de Jong wrote:
> > > Every elf is classed (MM), they can only be fighters, rangers,
> > > wizards, thieves and bards. And every elf meets the attribute
> > > requirements to be a wizard.
> >
> > Not in my campaign. Most elves are just 0th-level, with a lot of
> > proficiencies. That statement just reminds me of D&D, where every elf
> > was a fighter/mage.
> >
> Fine by me. I just figure that given how long they live, they'll pick
> up something sooner or later.

Our view on what those classes are, clearly differ. To me those are only
available to a very few hero's with an almost inhuman determination.
Getting to high levels is even more difficult and only possible with
heroic adventures (or in the case of wizards research). Hence the fact
that very few rulers are high level in my campaigns. Ruling a nation,
does not leave much room for adventure.

Pieter Sleijpen

[Kenneth Gauck]

- -----Original Message-----
From: Pieter A de Jong
Date: Monday, February 15, 1999 10:00 AM
>
>Indeed, as I have stated many times on this list, I run a significantly
>higher magic birthright campaign than most people do, as I look at the
>published material and use the logical results of what I see presented.
>
I do the reverse, I look at the world described and ask, "how did it get
this way?" Since the world has few elven realms left, I reason they cannot
be stronger in the long term than their opposition. The English in the
Hundred Years War had many of the same advanages as elves in Cerilia, but
ultimatly lost based mostly on the superior resources of a much, much larger
realm.

I suppose many of the provinces when humans first arrived were 0 level, and
a fewer level 1's. As the elves have been pushed back their density has
increased, so today we see much higher level provinces.

Kenneth Gauck
c558382@earthlink.net

[Kenneth Gauck]

In modern daylight conditions in Germany, visual range rarely exceedes 200
yards. I hardly suppose it gets better in the dark, starlight or no. I
stick with the old numbers, unless special circumstances prevail.

- -----Original Message-----
From: Pieter A de Jong
To: birthright@MPGN.COM
Date: Monday, February 15, 1999 10:09 AM
Subject: Re: [BIRTHRIGHT] - Re: elven victory?


>Kenneth Gauck wrote:
>>
>>
>> >The elves would use the night to attack humans, as they can see while
>> >the humans would be blind.
>> >
>> Or perhaps they'll wander around in the cool forest hoping to get withing
60
>> yards of the humans.
>>
>Hey where did this 60 yard thing come from. It's not infravision, it's
>starlight vision unlike standard AD&D elves, and doesn't have a precise
>distance limit.

[Kenneth Gauck]

Battles have always been conbsidered very risky, and hence were avoided by
most commanders through history. The should reflect a wide range of
possibilities.

>>Congratulations on pointing out one of the more ridiculous hole in the
>>war card system. I would suggest trying the War Machine rules from the
>>D&D compagion set. They are much quicker than war card battles, and
>>mostly produce more realistic results (although that last isn't hard!).
>>--
>>

[Kenneth Gauck]

>Don't forget, the state and the church aren't the same thing, the king
>can't force the priesthood to fight for him, while the other way is
>true.

Medieval ecclesiastical coprorations were required to pay military service
just like any other land holder. Churchmen usually paid the fee, but some
did raise troops. I see no reason that we should not assume priests were
involved in the wars with the elves. The histories make mention of the
priestly magic. Arguing them away seems to be a case of special pleading.

Kenneth Gauck
c558382@earthlink.net

[Jim Cooper]

Pieter A de Jong wrote:
> And anyhow, if what wins in warfare is ruthlessness and birthrate,
> how come the goblins don't own all of cerilia?<

YEA! That's tellin' um, Pieter! :D

That's why, IMC, I have tried to divorce my Cerilian races of the
traditional AD&D stereotypes. Goblins are a LOT more intelligent, and
organized, and culturally advanced than any other race realizes. They
are on par, I would say, with their nearby human neighbours (thus
Thurazor is very much in the Middle Age technology bracket, while Kal
Kalathor on the other hand is Dark Age tech with the Vos around them).
Same goes with elves - the gheallie sidhe faction make the Inquisition
look like a birthday party! :) The bottom line is that the various
races of Cerilian have reached a sort of uneasy stability in regards to
the cultures and technology around them.

Cheers!
Darren

[DKEvermore@aol.co]

In a message dated 2/13/99 1:57:12 PM Central Standard Time,
Jim_Cooper@bc.sympatico.ca writes:

> A leader surviving that long out to learn how to
> avoid a knife in the back, you'd think ...
>
> The strong get stronger, and the weak get weaker. Survival of the
> fittest, no?
>
> Cheers,
> Darren

Maybe, but I would imagine that poison would be a common way of removing high-
level leaders, too. Particularly in a LE society. Why? because while not
"legal" poisoning is often practically a time-honored tradition in many
decadent societies.

- -DKE

[DKEvermore@aol.co]

In a message dated 2/13/99 5:05:28 PM Central Standard Time,
c558382@earthlink.net writes:

> >The elves would use the night to attack humans, as they can see while
> >the humans would be blind.
> >
> Or perhaps they'll wander around in the cool forest hoping to get withing
60
> yards of the humans.
>
I'm able to follow your posts thus far, but I'm lost on this one. Why would
the elves care about getting within 60 yds of humans? Humans don't have Night
Vision or Infravision. Elves have Night Vision and can see as well at night
as during the day. So where does this range come into play?

- -DKE

[the Falcon]

> > I once had a mere *2* Anuirean LEVY units ROUT and DESTROY a unit of
> > Knights of Haelyn. Boy was that hilarious! (Every -3 column for the
> > levvies was a H result, and the Knights at the +3 column only ever got 1
> > H result, the rest were "-"!!!).
> >
> Congratulations on pointing out one of the more ridiculous hole in the
> war card system. I would suggest trying the War Machine rules from the
> D&D compagion set. They are much quicker than war card battles, and
> mostly produce more realistic results (although that last isn't hard!).

I think it's pretty cool that 2 levy units can rout and destroy a Knights
of Haelyn unit. It's always nice to see that even the best plans can go
wrong. Anyways, it's not very likely that this is going to happen all the
time, but it just might happen and that's pretty cool to me. That way, no
battle will ever be a hopeless cause.

- the Falcon

[Kai Beste]

> >Don't forget, the state and the church aren't the same thing, the king
> >can't force the priesthood to fight for him, while the other way is
> >true.
>
> Medieval ecclesiastical coprorations were required to pay military service
> just like any other land holder. Churchmen usually paid the fee, but some
> did raise troops. I see no reason that we should not assume priests were
> involved in the wars with the elves. The histories make mention of the
> priestly magic. Arguing them away seems to be a case of special pleading.

I agree with Kenneth on this point. In the HRE the bishops and
archbishops recieved their land from the crown. Thus, they were
required to follow a call to arms just like any other vassal. There
are enough examples in German history when an archbishop raised
troops, or even lead troops for his liege.

laters

Kai