Espionage?

[Muaadeeb@aol.co]

In a message dated 1/25/99 8:24:47 AM Pacific Standard Time, vlad@mweb.co.za
writes:

[the Falcon]

> In the Birthright Rule book, the Espionage domain action says: "Both the spy
> and the target regent can commit GBs and RPs to affect espionage." - Yes,
> but to me it looks unrealistic, because if the target regent doesn't know
> nothing about the spy regent actions, how could he affect the espionage
> success chance? OK "...if the action fails by a margin of 10 or more, the
> target learns the spy's indentity...". Yes, but first is the biding and then
> the roll so....

Sheer coincidence has it, that I've wondered about that only few days
before myself. I've decided for myself that in my campaign a regent who
is the victim of an espionage action always knows he's being spied upon -
but not by whom. The amount of regency he spends to affect the espionage
represents how much effort he puts into counter-espionage. The only way
to spy upon someone and go completely undetected is the use of the Scry
realm spell, and then only if your target isn't a wizard regent himself.

- the Falcon

[Muaadeeb@aol.co]

In a message dated 1/25/99 8:43:41 AM Pacific Standard Time,
m.m.richert@twi.tudelft.nl writes:

In the Birthright Rule book, the Espionage domain action says: "Both the
spy
> and the target regent can commit GBs and RPs to affect espionage." - Yes,
> but to me it looks unrealistic, because if the target regent doesn't know
> nothing about the spy regent actions, how could he affect the espionage
> success chance? OK "...if the action fails by a margin of 10 or more, the
> target learns the spy's indentity...". Yes, but first is the biding and
then
> the roll so....

Sheer coincidence has it, that I've wondered about that only few days
before myself. I've decided for myself that in my campaign a regent who
is the victim of an espionage action always knows he's being spied upon -
but not by whom. The amount of regency he spends to affect the espionage
represents how much effort he puts into counter-espionage. The only way
to spy upon someone and go completely undetected is the use of the Scry
realm spell, and then only if your target isn't a wizard regent himself.

- the Falcon >>


Yes, but then again....how can a spy ever truly be a spy if everyone knows'
there is one....? I think this approach would be unfair to the spying
regent.....


As per my previous post, I would simply say an action is being used against
you, will you defend?

Muaadeeb

[Jonathan Ingram]

At 11:27 AM 1/25/99 EST, you wrote:
>In a message dated 1/25/99 8:24:47 AM Pacific Standard Time, vlad@mweb.co.za
>writes:
>
> but to me it looks unrealistic, because if the target regent doesn't know
> nothing about the spy regent actions, how could he affect the espionage
> success chance? OK "...if the action fails by a margin of 10 or more, the
> target learns the spy's indentity...". Yes, but first is the biding and then
> the roll so....
> Can you explain it to me please or give me some better solution. Sorry if
> you had this discussed before!
>
> Thanks
>
> Vladislav Slavov
> vlad@mweb.co.za >>
>
>Well this is the one thing I have always had an itch about, but according to
>the rules all a GM can say is:
>
>"There is an unknown action being taken against your realm, do you wish to
>commit RP's to your defense?"
>
>Yes, it does kind of blow your cover against doing anything in secret. This
>is one reason why perhaps using RP pools...defensive and offensive may come
>into play. Just minus the defensive RP's in the pool and inform the player,
>it was spent to counter an action..he need not be informed exactly what that
>action was.
Better solution: assign a "success" number based on your opinion of how
difficult it should be to get the desired information. A secret treaty
known only to four or five people would be base 18 or 19; location of all
military units would have a base roll of 4 or 5. A base roll of 1 always
indicates that the spy is caught or found out and traced back to his master
(BTW, the DM makes the roll).

The player can spend extra GB or RP on the action too, but these make it
more likely that the action will be caught: for every GB or RP spent to
lower the success roll, the "automatic detection" number goes up by 1. So,
if you spend enough to insure success, you're also spending enough to
ensure detection.

You can also allow a player to spend money on counterintelligence on a
regular basis; maybe 1GB and 1RP per domain turn increases the difficulty
of all espionage attempts by 5% (from 10 on d20 to 11 on d20). This allows
you to suck additional RP and GB from players as well, since they'll be
almost sure to do it every domain turn.

This way you only have to track the target player's RP total, not have it
divided into two pools.

Jonathan

[Vladislav Slavov]

Hello,

In the Birthright Rule book, the Espionage domain action says: "Both the spy
and the target regent can commit GBs and RPs to affect espionage." - Yes,
but to me it looks unrealistic, because if the target regent doesn't know
nothing about the spy regent actions, how could he affect the espionage
success chance? OK "...if the action fails by a margin of 10 or more, the
target learns the spy's indentity...". Yes, but first is the biding and then
the roll so....
Can you explain it to me please or give me some better solution. Sorry if
you had this discussed before!

Thanks

Vladislav Slavov
vlad@mweb.co.za

[Kenneth Gauck]

A defensive pool is a workable solution, but tends to be abstract for a
role-play heavy campaign. Here are some suggestions for an intrigue heavy
campaign.

1) Assume that spying is going on all the time by all kinds of people, not
just the realm's main enemy. Nobles in the realm spy on each other,
guilders spy on each other, various guild leaders spy on each other in the
same guild, spying in the temples, things that look like spying but isn't,
lovers sending secret notes, for example.

Get your players used to this, and let them know it cannot be stopped. What
they need to do is keep certain things secret, they cannot keep everything
secret. Maybe its OK of the Baron of Ghoere finds out you gave your wife a
neckless for her brithday. He's probably not too concerned you will find
out he had his wife's portrait painted for her's.

2) Use role play sitiuations to reveal that something is going on in the
shadows. Notes could be found, conversations overheard by one of your
courtiers, known agents are seen to be active. Then what the player has to
decide is "Is this an espiange action in motion, or just the exchange of
court gossip?" "Are plans being smuggled out of the castle, or have I
uncovered an adulterous affair?" I hope no one wouls spend 5 GB and 15 RP
to keep Romeo away from Juliet. But that can happen if your players panic
every time two pages arrange a rendezvous for their principles.

3) So if spying is going on all the time, what is an espionage action?
Well, it should be considered a larger scheme which requires more planning
and preperation than a simple fact finding mission. Second, consider that
an Espionage action is not neccesarily a one time affair. Such an action
could be used to place an agent somewhere.

This is a fairly big job. First you want to figure out what kind of insider
do you want. Do you want a ferrier inside the baracks of Blackgate castle
who will provide information about the state of and activities of the
cavalry there? Do you want a cook in the court of the duke of Osoerde whose
mission is to poison him? Do you want a secretary to Prince Fhileraene to
report to you the contents of all his correspondance?

One spy cannot do all of these jobs. The way intelligence normally has
worked (from antiquity to the present) is that your agent finds a person who
can do this job. All he knows is his profession (ferrier, cook, scribe) and
what information to deliver. What he knows about his contact is probably
useless, since his job is just to recruit spys and collect information.
Your ferrier does not know who is using this information or how it is being
used.

Then you need to decide how to get your man on the inside. The duke of
Osoerde probably does not advertise that he needs a cook by town crier, nor
does he hire people off the street. Perhaps your agent found a taven cook
who seemed to be pretty decent. The agent recruited him, brought him to a
safe place that was not the kind of place which would give away who was
behind this all. Maybe a nice tavern whose owners had no idea his cooks
were up to no good. There the agent has already placed a master chef. This
master chef trains the new recruit to be a courtly chef prepared to cook
Jaison Raenech's favorite dish and other favorites of his court. Then put
him in a location where the duke discovers him. Now all he has to do is fit
in for a while so people are no longer watching him (hey the duke doesn't
like so much basil!) and he can poison him.

But what if you placed a secretary in Prince Fhileraene's household? You
should be able to find out details that the secretary can get to his
controling agent without having to do much. No futher actions are required
to find out he plans to visit his cousin next month, he will review the
Royal Company of Archers in a week, and that his physcian is off collecting
some Gjorlab in the Giantdowns, which can be harvested only at this time of
year. Occasionaly something juicy will come along.

On the other hand, sending a member of your company of scouts to wander over
and examine the condition of a key stone bridge should not. After all, you
have a lot of available people to do this (a whole company), the job
requires no special skills (the scout can, after all, scout), nor passing
himself off as anything other than a traveler. Assuming all he has to do is
cross the bridge, or observe it closely (without getting on his hands an
knees, or doing anything that looks like an inspection), there is absolutely
no reason to demand a domain action for this.

Intelligence gathering that requires special planning and preparation
requires an Espionage action. And, by the same taken, information that can
be gathered by casual observation by anyone present, certainly requires no
domain action. Also, some information revealed by a previous Espionage
action, might not require one to see if it remains timely. Say a previous
action revealed that a military unit (say the Iron Guard of Ghoere) was at
such and such a location. If you just want to send a scout to observe to
see if the unit remains at that same fort or encampment, and simple
observation is sufficent, no additional action is required to determine if
the unit is or is not there. If you want to get into questions of
additional information, then it gets a bit more complicated. An intelligent
NPC with appropriate skills (say, the seargent of a company of scouts) might
be able to find out where the unit moved (depending on how secret the orders
were, moving to get fresh forage is not a state secret, preperations for
invasion is). A 0-level scout cannot get that kind of information.

So, give your players the sense that their courts are filled with secret
notes, secret meetings, and hidden agendas and then you can set up role play
situations, adventures, or domain actions by placing a note beneath a soup
bowl at dinner.

Kenneth Gauck
c558382@earthlink.net

[JulesMrshn@aol.co]

In a message dated 1/25/99 10:24:47 AM Central Standard Time, vlad@mweb.co.za
writes:

[Kenneth Gauck]

- -----Original Message-----
From: JulesMrshn@aol.com
Date: Monday, January 25, 1999 10:59 PM

> Remember, the regent has a connnection to the land.
>That means playing on his turf gives him a big home field advantage.

Who is bidding on espionage actions, let alone conducting them, if not
regents? They all have a connection to the land.

KG

[JulesMrshn@aol.co]

In a message dated 1/26/99 12:16:28 AM Central Standard Time,
c558382@earthlink.net writes:

>

Yes, but they some have a better connection to their land (or people), hence
investiture, RP generation and such. Would the Baron of Roesone have equal
knowledge of things in Avanil as Prince Avan does? No. A homecourt
advantage, I would say.

[Kenneth Gauck]

From: JulesMrshn@aol.com
Date: Tuesday, January 26, 1999 12:37 AM

>Yes, but they some have a better connection to their land (or people),
hence
>investiture, RP generation and such. Would the Baron of Roesone have equal
>knowledge of things in Avanil as Prince Avan does? No. A homecourt
>advantage, I would say.

Should depend on the situation, home court can be a penalty as much as
anything else. Its at home where your most dangerous intrigues occur.

KG

[Solmyr]

Actually there's a simple way to handle Espionage. Have the player put some RPs into a "counter-espionage" pool. He may put as many RPs there as he wishes, at any time. However, DON'T TELL him the current amount of the RPs in that pool. When an Espionage action is performed against the player, secretly subtract some RPs from that pool to oppose it, but don't tell the player how many RPs you subtracted (or that you even did it). That way, the player can still spend some effort on counter-espionage, but he won't know if he was spied upon, unless the espionage is discovered.

******************
Aleksei Andrievski
aka Solmyr, Archmage of the Azure Star
aka Azure Star Dragon
solmyr@kolumbus.fi
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Fortress/2198/index.html

[JulesMrshn@aol.co]

In a message dated 1/26/99 2:25:13 PM Central Standard Time,
solmyr@kolumbus.fi writes:

>

I don't know why you people insist on taking the RP control out of the
player's hands. The rule is fair the way it is. Othewise you would have Avan
and Boeruine assinating each toher because Boeruine only put 80 RPs in his
pool, and Avan put 100 into assassination. No. It should be hard to do
espionage. Especialy in the circumstances of BR. The special "connection"
that the Regents of Cerilia enjoy should not be undermined because you want
secret operations. Sure the players know something went down, but there is a
lot that could happen in a provience, and they won't know who did it, unless
that person fails.

Think about it. How hard is it for army patrols to pick up a trail of
someone who spied on their encampments? How many plots have been foiled by
loose lips? How hard is itto cometo the conclusion that a black dressed man
witha dagger in your beroom is going to assassinate you? Not very. That is
why it starts with a 20.
Next, it is harder for a stranger to scope things out in a low population
provience. Why? Well strangers are not regulars there. That is why there is
a modifier of the Provience level.
Then comes the holdings. It is pretty easy to discern why these modify the
rolls. So I am not going to explain them.

Next is were most people have the problem. The RPs and GBs used to bid. This
is the way the game works. If you think about why a spying regent gets to
modify this roll, you have your answer on why the regent gets to do the same.
Think about it. Reflect on this. Its not that difficult to understand.
Maybe you are looking at it wrong. Sit back, throw some Bond movies on (new
one's the best), maybe a little Flint action, try out "The Saint" staring Val
Kilmer, or watch Sneakers. Watch how these agents work against their foes.
The authors had to be influence by these flicks. It will show you that you can
know something is going on, maybe even what, but you don't always know who.
And the secret of Espionage is to not conceal the action, but to make sure no
one finds out who did it. If you want to get into counter-espionage, then play
it out. That why BR is a RPG not a Computer Game (and why the computer game
lacks the fun of a real game).