English Counts

[Kai Beste]

[snipped lots of good stuff]
> Viscounts (vicomte) are vice-counts, and are inferior to counts. To my
> knowledge this rank does not exist in German. My Langenscheidt identifies
> viscount as an English title with no translation. If this is incorrect I
> would be very interested in the name for this title.

There's no equivalent that I know of. Later the title of Freiherr
(equivalent to baron) was created.
The German system was not as well structured as the English system.
In fact, it was quite confusing. Yesterday I talked to a friend of
mine who is a student of history and we looked it up.

As you already stated, Graf (count from latin comes = companion)
first was an administrative title.
A Mark (march) was a tract of land that was recently conquered, and a
vassal with more military rights than a count was needed. Enter the
Markgraf (viscount). A viscount had the right of the Heerbann (call
to arms). In terms of power and social rank a Markgraf was equivalent
to a duke.
A Herzog (from Old High German herizogo, which designated a
military leader, English duke, from latin dux = leader) originally
was a tribe's elected military leader. Later this changed into a
hereditary noble title.
A Baron (baron) was the lowest ranking member of the Hochadel (high
nobility).
The Pfalzgraf has something of a special status. A Pfalz was one of
the Karolingian castles. The regent had no real capital, but
travelled across the land from on Pfalz to the next. Pfalzgraf was an
administrative title. I know of only one "domain" that later on used
that title, the "Pfalzgraf bei Rhein" (count palatine on the Rhine),
a very influential person on par with a duke or marquis, and later
one of the electors.
Fuerst is a term used to describe a member of the nobility and is a
superconcept for all the above.

So far, so good, but now things really get confusing.

Herzog, Markgraf, Pfalzgraf and Baron all belonged to the
Reichfuersten. This means, they swore fealty directly to the crown.
Some counts belonged in there as well, but most of the counts swore
fealty to a Markgraf or Herzog. This lead to the fractioning of the
empire and sometimes conflicting loyalties, since their highest
liegelord nominally still was the king, but their direct liegelord
was somebody else.

Later, Baron, Freiherr and Fuerst became mere titles, not necessarily
acompanied by land.

Sorry for using this much German on the list, but some of the phrases
really don't translate well into Englisch

laters

Kai

[Daniel McSorley]

From: Kai Beste
>Sorry for using this much German on the list, but some of the phrases
>really don't translate well into Englisch
>
Are you kidding? Why do you think the Brechts in my game say "Spracen sie
Brennan?" I try to use as much German as I can for flavor. I'll get to use
these titles the next time my players encounter a Brecht land. I know it
says the highest Brecht title is Count, but that's probably because the
Anuireans wanted to translate it as being low on the scale. I like the
"Herzog of Muden" much better than just the "Count".

Daniel McSorley- mcsorley.1@osu.edu
http://www.cis.ohio-state.edu/~mcsorley/

[Kenneth Gauck]

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

- ------=_NextPart_000_004B_01BE487C.24499820
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

The books state that duke is an Imperial title, so graf would be the =
highest native title in Brech=FCr. Grevesm=FChl is the only duchy in =
the Great Bay and this adhearance to a foriegn title is a sore spot =
between the people and its regent (see p. 12). I would advise using one =
of the titles such as Markgraf (Marquis) or Landgraf (Landgrave), which, =
as Kai pointed out, were more or less equivilent to that of duke.

While the title of Graf in Brect=FCr translates to count in Anuire, =
there is no reason to consider them wholey equivilent. The Havens book =
says it evolved from a royal title [probably in more tribal times] and =
so should not be considered equal to the Anurian count, who rules a =
single province (in theory). In England, the Earls (counts) had no =
superior except the King, until Edward III made his sons dukes, and for =
a long time the dukes were Plantagenats. In France and Germany, where =
every son of a count was a count, the title was more of a commonplace. =20

Those Brechts wishing to refer to Anurian titles might refer to the =
Erzherzog von B=F6ruine, the F=FCrst von Avanil, the K=F6nigin von =
=C4ren (Queen of Aerenwe), or the Kaiser von Anuirn. (Transliterating =
fantasy names is something of an art, others may propose other =
versions.)

Kenneth Gauck
c558382@earthlink.net

- -----Original Message-----
From: Daniel McSorley
To: birthright@MPGN.COM
Date: Monday, January 25, 1999 9:32 AM
Subject: Re: Re: [BIRTHRIGHT] - English Counts


>From: Kai Beste
>>Sorry for using this much German on the list, but some of the phrases
>>really don't translate well into Englisch
>>
>Are you kidding? Why do you think the Brechts in my game say "Spracen =
sie
>Brennan?" I try to use as much German as I can for flavor. I'll get =
to use
>these titles the next time my players encounter a Brecht land. I know =
it
>says the highest Brecht title is Count, but that's probably because the
>Anuireans wanted to translate it as being low on the scale. I like the
>"Herzog of Muden" much better than just the "Count".
>
>Daniel McSorley- mcsorley.1@osu.edu
>http://www.cis.ohio-state.edu/~mcsorley/


- ------=_NextPart_000_004B_01BE487C.24499820
Content-Type: text/html;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable






The books state that duke is an Imperial title, so graf would be =
the=20
highest native title in Brech=FCr.  Grevesm=FChl is the only duchy =
in the Great=20
Bay and this adhearance to a foriegn title is a sore spot between the =
people and=20
its regent (see p. 12).  I would advise using one of the =
titles such=20
as Markgraf (Marquis) or Landgraf (Landgrave), which, as Kai pointed =
out, were=20
more or less equivilent to that of duke.
 
While the title of Graf in Brect=FCr translates to count in Anuire, =
there is=20
no reason to consider them wholey equivilent.  The Havens book says =
it=20
evolved from a royal title [probably in more tribal times] and so should =
not be=20
considered equal to the Anurian count, who rules a single province (in=20
theory).  In England, the Earls (counts) had no superior except the =
King,=20
until Edward III made his sons dukes, and for a long time the dukes were =

Plantagenats.  In France and Germany, where every son of a count =
was a=20
count, the title was more of a commonplace. 
 
Those Brechts wishing to refer to Anurian titles might refer to the =

Erzherzog von B=F6ruine, the F=FCrst von Avanil, the K=F6nigin von =
=C4ren (Queen of=20
Aerenwe), or the Kaiser von Anuirn.  (Transliterating fantasy names =
is=20
something of an art, others may propose other versions.)
 
Kenneth Gauck
c558382@earthlink.net
 
-----Original Message-----From: =
Daniel McSorley=20
<mcsorley.1@osu.edu>To: birthright@MPGN.COM <birthright@MPGN.COM>Date: =
Monday,=20
January 25, 1999 9:32 AMSubject: Re: Re: [BIRTHRIGHT] - English=20
Counts>From: Kai Beste <BESTE@jerry.iued.uni-h=
eidelberg.de>>>Sorry=20
for using this much German on the list, but some of the=20
phrases>>really don't translate well into=20
Englisch>>>Are you kidding?  Why do you think the =
Brechts=20
in my game say "Spracen sie>Brennan?"  I try to =
use as=20
much German as I can for flavor.  I'll get to use>these =
titles the=20
next time my players encounter a Brecht land.  I know =
it>says the=20
highest Brecht title is Count, but that's probably because =
the>Anuireans=20
wanted to translate it as being low on the scale.  I like=20
the>"Herzog of Muden" much better than just the=20
"Count".>>Daniel McSorley- mcsorley.1@osu.edu>http://www.cis.ohio-sta=
te.edu/~mcsorley/

- ------=_NextPart_000_004B_01BE487C.24499820--

[Jeff Dunnett]

Remeber that according to most things that I have read about the
Brecht say that they don't really care about a formal rank structure.
Most of them didn't have title until after the Anuirean occupation, so
most of their titles would be self proclaimed. So they can say they
are a Viscount and it could be considered the same rank as a duke or
prince in Anuire. The point is that I prefer to think that the Bretch
regent decides his\her own title.

Jeff




- ---Kenneth Gauck wrote:
>
> The books state that duke is an Imperial title, so graf would be the
highest native title in Brechür. Grevesmühl is the only duchy in the
Great Bay and this adhearance to a foriegn title is a sore spot
between the people and its regent (see p. 12). I would advise using
one of the titles such as Markgraf (Marquis) or Landgraf (Landgrave),
which, as Kai pointed out, were more or less equivilent to that of duke.
>
> While the title of Graf in Brectür translates to count in Anuire,
there is no reason to consider them wholey equivilent. The Havens
book says it evolved from a royal title [probably in more tribal
times] and so should not be considered equal to the Anurian count, who
rules a single province (in theory). In England, the Earls (counts)
had no superior except the King, until Edward III made his sons dukes,
and for a long time the dukes were Plantagenats. In France and
Germany, where every son of a count was a count, the title was more of
a commonplace.
>
> Those Brechts wishing to refer to Anurian titles might refer to the
Erzherzog von Böruine, the Fürst von Avanil, the Königin von Ären
(Queen of Aerenwe), or the Kaiser von Anuirn. (Transliterating
fantasy names is something of an art, others may propose other
versions.)
>
> Kenneth Gauck
> c558382@earthlink.net
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Daniel McSorley
> To: birthright@MPGN.COM
> Date: Monday, January 25, 1999 9:32 AM
> Subject: Re: Re: [BIRTHRIGHT] - English Counts
>
>
> >From: Kai Beste
> >>Sorry for using this much German on the list, but some of the
phrases
> >>really don't translate well into Englisch
> >>
> >Are you kidding? Why do you think the Brechts in my game say
"Spracen sie
> >Brennan?" I try to use as much German as I can for flavor. I'll
get to use
> >these titles the next time my players encounter a Brecht land. I
know it
> >says the highest Brecht title is Count, but that's probably because
the
> >Anuireans wanted to translate it as being low on the scale. I like
the
> >"Herzog of Muden" much better than just the "Count".
> >
> >Daniel McSorley- mcsorley.1@osu.edu
> >http://www.cis.ohio-state.edu/~mcsorley/
>
>






The books state that duke is an Imperial title, so graf would be
the
highest native title in Brechür.Â* Grevesmühl is the only duchy in the
Great
Bay and this adhearance to a foriegn title is a sore spot between the
people and
its regentÂ*(see p. 12).Â* I would advise using one of the titles such
as Markgraf (Marquis) or Landgraf (Landgrave), which, as Kai pointed
out, were
more or less equivilent to that of duke.
Â*
While the title of Graf in Brectür translates to count in Anuire,
there is
no reason to consider them wholey equivilent.Â* The Havens book says it
evolved from a royal title [probably in more tribal times] and so
should not be
considered equal to the Anurian count, who rules a single province (in
theory).Â* In England, the Earls (counts) had no superior except the
King,
until Edward III made his sons dukes, and for a long time the dukes
were
Plantagenats.Â* In France and Germany, where every son of a count was a
count, the title was more of a commonplace.Â*
Â*
Those Brechts wishing to refer to Anurian titles might refer to
the
Erzherzog von Böruine, the Fürst von Avanil, the Königin von Ären
(Queen of
Aerenwe), or the Kaiser von Anuirn.Â* (Transliterating fantasy names is
something of an art, others may propose other versions.)
Â*
Kenneth Gauck
c558382@earthlink.net
Â*
-----Original Message-----From:
Daniel McSorley
To: birthright@MPGN.COM Date:
Monday,
January 25, 1999 9:32 AMSubject: Re: Re: [BIRTHRIGHT] - English
Counts>From: Kai Beste >>Sorry

for using this much German on the list, but some of the
phrases>>really don't translate well into
Englisch>>>Are you kidding?Â* Why do you think the Brechts
in my game say "Spracen sie>Brennan?"Â* I try to use as
much German as I can for flavor.Â* I'll get to use>these titles the
next time my players encounter a Brecht land.Â* I know it>says the
highest Brecht title is Count, but that's probably because
the>Anuireans
wanted to translate it as being low on the scale.Â* I like
the>"Herzog of Muden" much better than just the
"Count".>>Daniel McSorley- mcsorley.1@osu.edu>http://www.cis.ohio-state.edu/~mcsorley/


__________________________________________________ _______
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com