Time and Magic

[Gary V. Foss]

einarh@fagerborg.vgs.no wrote:

> Heh... oups, try to find those 10 (?) 7th level mages needed.
> *and* cooperate. I'd think such a feat impossible.
> But if one takes the Emerald Queen for example, she could cast 4 'polymorph
> other' per day. = 120 per month. And I think a cavalry war card needs 50
> horses or something. (oups.. I've never thought of this idea before).
> And she would still be able to take normal actions, as it only takes a
> couple of minutes each day to polymorph them.

Yes, it only takes two 8th level mages to have the same spell casting effect (with
respect to Polymorph Other spells) as Isealie. My understanding is that there are
100 mounts in a cavalry/knight/flying unit, which means Isealie or the 8th level
mages could come up with 120 such creatures in under a month.

This does not, however, take into account the possibilty of creating a lower level
version of the spell with a much longer casting time and possibly a few material
components according to the Spell Law material published in Dragon magazine a
while back. Or a slightly more powerful 5th level version of the spell, for that
matter. If one had both these versions of Polymorph Other, and one could convince
two 9th level mages to do this, they could potentially cast twelve Polymorph Other
spells a day, for a total of 360 spells a month....

Another thing to note about this issue. Couldn't the same mages cast Stoneskin on
all 200 members of a military unit, making them immune to the first 5-8 hits on
that unit? The Improved Armor spell in the BoM also has an undefined duration, so
a mage casting that spell 200 times on a unit of archers should be able to make
them armored as if wearing plate mail.

There are a lot of issues along these lines. What about priests? Couldn't
priests with access to the Glyph of Warding spell effectively mine their temples?
How about a druid casting Giant Insect spells for a month or two to create a swarm
of locust the likes of which would give most real life farmers nightmares for a
decade? Shall we talk about Animate Dead?

> Hmm.. restrict the power of wish then. Anyway, 18th level character *does*
> have an impact on the world, no matter what world we are talking about.

This is very true. There are very few characters with that kind of power in the
published materials. Several are close, however, and see the following note
regarding awnsheghlien.

> >Well, what do you folks think? Am I nuts or could this kind of thing easily
> >happen?
>
> Nope! I'd say it won't happen.
> If he tries to do that, the Magian or the Gorgon would have taken notice of
> him, and would prolly try to slay such a character before their power brgun
> to rival their own.

Ah, but why wouldn't the Gorgon or the Magian be doing this themselves?
Especially the Gorgon. The guy has been around for a very long time. Oh, his
spell casting ability might not be all that incredible, but he could certainly
have spent a lot of time doing this sort of thing. Several other awnsheghlien
spring to mind as well. The Chimaera is basically immortal. Isn't the Raven
too? Most importantly, however, what about elves? I've argued that there are
potentially thousands and thousands of elven wizards on Cerilia. If they are
immortal then they have plenty of time to go up in levels, and Cerialian elves are
unlimited in level advancement as wizards.... Once an elf reaches 18th level
shouldn't he be able to just Wish himself into semi-godhood?

Gary

[Bernardo79@aol.co]

I have a question. Why does the wish spell have to exist on Cerilia? Plus,
as the gods would most likely put a stop to any being trying to become a demi-
god with magic. Its a nice senario but any DM worth their salt would see to
it, that first off no PC would have a wish spell, and second that they not
ever be allowed such a power on an already powerful enough world. I as a GM
not a MHGM (monty hall) feel that the roleplaying isn't in the levels but in
the fun. All of my players have fun, so the campaigns don't get boring. And
my characters rarely make it past 11th lvl. The usually grow too old, or die.
There is a reason that there are not big time adventurers a-plenty in gaming
worlds... the Death and Dismemberment policy : )

Bernie

[Ryan Freire]

The wish spell puts a horrible horrible drain on anyone casting it,
aging them and causing them to take to bed for 2d4 days after casting
it. I believe it was overlooked in the PHB but Limited wish ages the
caster 1 year for every 100 years of lifespan, i imagine wish (which
says it ages the caster 5 years) should read 5 years for every 100 years
of lifespan, thats a LOT! I imagine that this was overlooked since
according to base d+d rules, only humans could reach a high enough level
to cast wish spells. And the Gorgon isnt immortal per se, he just ages 1
year for every century that passes, meaning he casts that spell and with
a lifespan of around oh..we'll say 3000 years, since he got the ability
during the mid range of his life, when he casts that spell he ages 150
years, OUCH! Elves, value living their lives to the fullest, and while
it may not have MUCH of an effect on them, giving up time in their lives
is NOT something elves would enjoy doing (too much like necromancy) so i
personally would penalize any player-character elf doing this for bad
roleplay. Also an interesting rule was that it takes 10 wishes to raise
a stat 1 point above 16. With the DM's twisting the wording to grant
the wish in the most expedient manner possible that requires the least
amount of power expended, using wishes becomes very risky as well.

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[Gary V. Foss]

Bernardo79@aol.com wrote:

> I have a question. Why does the wish spell have to exist on Cerilia?

I don't know that removing the Wish spell from the list of available spells is
really the kind of solution I was looking for. The scenario I described is a
pretty limited one. I don't know that I want to take away the Wishes away from
the 99.99% of the game in order to deal with this situation. I may end up doing
that (no one has ever actually cast a Wish in my BR campaign, so it probably
wouldn't be much of a loss) but if someone has a better solution, I'd much prefer
to handle it in another way.

> Plus,
> as the gods would most likely put a stop to any being trying to become a demi-
> god with magic.

I would really rather avoid divine intervention whenever possible. Actually,
that's an understatement. I absolutely do not want to use divine intervention in
a campaign I am running. It seems like the worst possible cop-out as a DM, sort
of like that patronizing parental "because I said so" rationalization that never
worked on me as a child. I'd use it if there was no other alternative, but I'd
would prefer a more graceful solution.

If there is a "solution" at all. Maybe this is the way gods are created?
Somebody somewhere finds this kind of loophole and exploits it.

> Its a nice senario but any DM worth their salt would see to
> it, that first off no PC would have a wish spell, and second that they not
> ever be allowed such a power on an already powerful enough world. I as a GM
> not a MHGM (monty hall) feel that the roleplaying isn't in the levels but in
> the fun. All of my players have fun, so the campaigns don't get boring. And
> my characters rarely make it past 11th lvl. The usually grow too old, or die.
> There is a reason that there are not big time adventurers a-plenty in gaming
> worlds... the Death and Dismemberment policy : )

The highest character level reached in a campaign I DM was 14th, so I quite agree
with you. The problem is that in BR, unlike any other campaign world, the players
can start off playing quite powerful characters. IMC, the players make up
entirely new characters and play in the BR world with all the characters in the
published materials as NPCs, so this really has very little to do with my
campaign. I asked the question out of more curiosity than anything else. I am
still wondering why certain awnsheghlien would not be doing this sort of thing,
however. If the Magian is a lich, for instance, aging will have no effect upon
him. He's already undead. Why not cast Wishes and raise his stats like mad?
Given his current stats; S12 D: 18 C: 17 I: 22 W: 18 Ch: 15 isn't it possible he
is already doing this?

Gary

[Gary V. Foss]

Ryan Freire wrote:

> The wish spell puts a horrible horrible drain on anyone casting it,
> aging them and causing them to take to bed for 2d4 days after casting
> it. I believe it was overlooked in the PHB but Limited wish ages the
> caster 1 year for every 100 years of lifespan, i imagine wish (which
> says it ages the caster 5 years) should read 5 years for every 100 years
> of lifespan, thats a LOT! I imagine that this was overlooked since
> according to base d+d rules, only humans could reach a high enough level
> to cast wish spells.

> And the Gorgon isnt immortal per se, he just ages 1
> year for every century that passes, meaning he casts that spell and with
> a lifespan of around oh..we'll say 3000 years, since he got the ability
> during the mid range of his life, when he casts that spell he ages 150
> years, OUCH!

Hmmm. I suppose I could rule this way if I were hard-pressed. I don't really
get this kind of feeling off the description of the Long Life ability. That
description makes it sound much more like lifespan is not being extended, but
that the effects of time on aging are slowed down. It's a subtle distinction,
but one that I think counters the lifespan argument.

I also have a problem in that I have ruled that blood abilities are generally
more powerful than spell effects. That is, if there is a conflict between a
blood ability and a spell, the blood ability wins. The power of the gods, I
figure, is stronger than a spell. For instance, a druid casts Charm Person or
Mammal on a cat controlled by a scion with the Animal Affinity, Brenna
(great). Both characters vie for control over the animal. I think the
character with the blood ability wins automatically.

The point is that Wish is a spell. I think blood abilities should have more
effect on characters than spells, so I would probably have to rule that the
Long Life blood ability takes precedence over the aging effects of the Wish
spell.

> Elves, value living their lives to the fullest, and while
> it may not have MUCH of an effect on them, giving up time in their lives
> is NOT something elves would enjoy doing (too much like necromancy) so i
> personally would penalize any player-character elf doing this for bad
> roleplay.

I don't know. I admit no one wants to be in bed for 2d4 days. (Well, that's
not true, I'd rather like to spend that much time in bed.) But the payoff is
certainly worth it, even for elves. What's a week to an elf?

> Also an interesting rule was that it takes 10 wishes to raise
> a stat 1 point above 16.

Given the relative lifespans what is 10 wishes to these folks?

> With the DM's twisting the wording to grant
> the wish in the most expedient manner possible that requires the least
> amount of power expended, using wishes becomes very risky as well.

Twisting the wording of a Wish is certainly an option, but how is a DM to twist
the wording of a Wish used to increase an ability score? The player just says,
"I wish I was more intelligent." How am I supposed to twist the wording of
that wish in a way that isn't totally and ridiculously contrived? Say the same
character wanted to make the Protection from Normal Missiles spell that he had
just cast upon himself permanent. He would just say "I wish the Protection
from Normal Missiles spell I just cast upon myself was permanent." That's
pretty difficult to twist the wording on.

Gary

[Craig Dalrymple]

- -----Original Message-----
From: Gary V. Foss
To: birthright@MPGN.COM
Date: Saturday, October 24, 1998 11:50 AM
Subject: Re: [BIRTHRIGHT] - Time and Magic



>Twisting the wording of a Wish is certainly an option, but how is a DM to
twist
>the wording of a Wish used to increase an ability score? The player just
says,
>"I wish I was more intelligent." How am I supposed to twist the wording of
>that wish in a way that isn't totally and ridiculously contrived? Say the
same
>character wanted to make the Protection from Normal Missiles spell that he
had
>just cast upon himself permanent. He would just say "I wish the Protection
>from Normal Missiles spell I just cast upon myself was permanent." That's
>pretty difficult to twist the wording on.
>
>Gary
>


Actually, it's not all that hard to twist a wish into something that is less
than
what the caster/recipient intended. Even if it is a well worded wish wherein
the caster took many precautions on the phrasing to avoid ambiguities.

I kinda see the effects of a wish resembling that of any modern wonder drug.
All of em have some kind of side effects. Some are directly related to the
power of the drug/wish. Others just happen due to it, but don't seemed to
be linked directly.

Perhaps the person who wishes for and gets higher intelligence now
has migraines due to unnaturally inflated intellect. These migraines
could stop all spellcasting ability from being usable until they stopped.
A kind DM might just allow some kinda save (say vs.. petrifaction)
to cast a spell when a migraine is on, but even that is pretty rough.

The making prot from normal missiles spell can also have side effects,
though a dispel magic could counter it relatively easy anyway. Wish
based side effects might include some kinda change in the persons
physiology (sp) due to the nature of constant magic emanating from
him. These emanations might make him glow with a faerie fire or
something annoying like that. Perhaps it could be something less
obvious such as other "normal" objects avoiding the target. Kinda
like an uncontrolled reverse telekinesis.

Life can be fun, :) especially when you are punishing your players...


Craig

[Pieter Sleijpen]

A simple solution to the abuse of wishes would be to make the aging
effect be on constitution. In stead of aging 5 years the person will
lose an constitution effect that is not recoverable by a wish spell.
This would certainly stand for the draining effect of the spell. I think
this is much better anyway, since the mage that is able to cast a wish
probably can develop potions that reduce the mage in age. For liches and
other undead the drain in constitution could show itself in a hastened
rotting or desintegrating of the body and reduce an ammount of the
maximum hit points that the creature can have.
Remember that a wish spell can copy any other spell and in the case of
the spell made permanent, this can be dispeled with a simple dispel
magic (this is just a simple combination of a permanency and an other
spell).

[Gary V. Foss]

Pieter Sleijpen wrote:

> I am not sure if polymorphing creatures is a viable tactic. First of all
> a simple 'dispel magic' reverses it, if this is cast as a 'war'-spell
> then you suddenly have a unit of 100 horses crushing to their deaths
> (with a little bit of luck above their own units). Since the sudden
> appearence of such large pegasus units is rather strange, people are
> bound to suspect this. An other problem is that the polymorphed
> creatures become the creatures not only in body but also in mind. This
> means that they will have to be trained again and everyone knows how
> difficult this can be. The riders will also have to be trained. In the
> end creating a flying unit through spells might be still very expensive
> and the results are unit with a dangerous weak spot. It would be much
> simpler to create the mass fly spell and it has got the same risks.

This is true. Creatures polymorphed into flying mounts would require extensive
training, so would their riders, and the unit would be very vulnerable to a
Dispel Magic battlespell. Personally, I don't really like battlespells. I
don't use them in my campaign, so this is not a problem, but if such a spell
were available you're quite right that it would be very effective against such
a unit. I'm not quite sure if I would rule that such a unit would be effected
by Dispel Realm Magic. I'm inclined to think it would, however, which also
makes the unit vulnerable to such an attack.

I think the amount of training required and the vulnerabilities would probably
be worth it for such an incredibly advantageous tactical weapon, though, don't
you? Even if the unit were employed under very restricted conditions, such as
having them "stand off" at an altitude out of range of that Dispel Magic
battlespell, but could still drop stones or other projectiles on enemy units.
As far as I can tell there is no range limit on gravity.... :)

The other important effect such a unit would have is what has euphemistically
been called a "terror weapon" since the 1930's. A flying unit would be more
effective against cities and castles than against individual units because of
the necessity to stay out of range of Dispel Magic which would limit their
accuracy. But against a town, accuracy isn't such a big concern. I really
think such a unit would be more of a threat than cannon. The thing that scared
people about cannon wasn't really that they were antipersonnel weapons but that
they could bring down a city's walls and leave it vulnerable. A flying unit
would just bypass a cities walls and begin bombarding the city directly. That
should give anyone pause.

> As for skeletons and zombies, you just pointed out one of the most
> dangerous aspects of a necromancer. The sole way to destroy an army of a
> necromancer is to kill that necromancer or to be equiped with certain
> quest spells. The problem is that for the spell a reasonable complete
> body is needed and these are not very common. the bodies also can not be
> reused for that reason.

Dead bodies are, however, a renewable resource . It is rather
frightening that the biggest stumbling block that a necromancer might have is
access to enough corpses....

Anyway, this is the sort of thing that lies at the heart of my dislike of
battlespells. First, I don't really like the idea of giving a magic user a
much more powerful version of his low level spell as simply and easily as
that. I've argued that wizards are under powered in BR terms, but giving a 1st
level wizard the power to hit 200 guys with a magic missile isn't exactly what
I had in mind. Second, I don't quite get the rationalization for a middle step
between regular spells and realm magic. Third, I don't see why it is
necessary. If a mage wants a spell that effects an entire unit he should
invent such a spell. That spell could either have a very large area of effect
or be of unlimited duration so that he could cast it on all 200 members of a
unit over a month or two. Why bother with a battlespell at all?

One last point regarding spells. Is it just me or is the Improved Armor spell
in the BoM (p92) too powerful? AC 2 with an unlimited duration? None of the
players in my campaign have quite hit upon the realization that they could cast
this spell on all their mounts and eliminate the need for barding, or that they
could cast it on all the party members and give them an unarmored AC 2 whenever
they are just hanging out at the castle. This spell in combination with a
Stoneskin could make characters pretty near invulnerable for the first several
rounds of any hand-to-hand fight.

Gary

[HSteiner1@aol.co]

In einer eMail vom 24.10.98 20:38:27, schreiben Sie:

>

Punishing? For what?


I would be quitting playing with you, if you did this thing to my character.
If you dont like any spells in the PHB disallow them in your campaign, but
this kind of "player bashing" is just stupid.
The players have worked hard to get their characters high enough to cast
some powerful spells, so whats the punishing for?
Its absolutely normal for a wizard of 18th level to have some permanent
spells on them, they ARE arch-wizards after all.
Every time somebody talks about wishes in an AD&D context some fool
shouts "PUNISH THEM". If the characters made it that far, they SOULD be able
to exert their power, they have earned it.

Maybe we should punish fighters for having more than one attack per round
in higher levels?



Aedric Maeras
Lord Mage of Roesone
Undead Master



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[Pieter Sleijpen]

There is a difference between punishing and between some logical power
limits. If these spells were as easy as you suggest you want them, then
current arch-mages allready have them. There are not that many
arch-mages around, but lets take a look at the Khinasi area (my
favorite). First lets define arch-mage as 12th level or higher. That
creates the following list (had this list ready since my players needed
a 'stone to flesh' spell):
*The sphinx (12th lvl) - awn
*El-Sheighul (19th lvl) - awn
*The Swan Mage (16th lvl) - human/good
*el-Sirad (exact lvl unknown, but concidering his autamatons/golems and
other magical feats he is high lvl) - awn
*Caelcorwynn (13th lvl) - elf
*High Lady Fiona (13th lvl) - elf
*The Serpent (12th lvl) - awn
*The Magian (20th lvl) - awn/lich
*The White Soceress (17th lvl) - human/good

I count exactly 2 powerfull mages for the forces of good and maybe 2
extra (the elves of Rhuanach are friendly to humans). The rest are all
very evil and dangerous. The Serpent even managed to destroy a complete
culture (the Masetians). If these spells had no limitations as we are
discussing in this message thread, then the world would be a terrible
place to live in. There would be nothing to stop the Magian or the
Serpent (the two most dangerous forces in the Khinasi lands at moment,
though one should not underestimate the Sphinx), except maybe each
other. Since these wizards do not rule the world, there are some limits.
Limits that are not only there for the PC's, but for the NPC's as well.
That is were this discusion is about, because not many DM's have got
players whoes PC's will ever reach these levels. As a DM we want some
serious opposition, but we want to give the PC's a chance. Besides, even
the gods would not want unlimited wizardly power. The Forgotten Realms
have got some good examples of what will happen if there are this kind
of wizards.
Besides, if an 18th lvl wizard needs a permanent spell (with a wish) to
mean something against an 18th lvl warior. Then he needs some better
spells in his spell book...or use his brains better.

[Pieter A de Jong]

einarh@fagerborg.vgs.no wrote:
>
> Nope! I'd say it won't happen.
> If he tries to do that, the Magian or the Gorgon would have taken notice of
> him, and would prolly try to slay such a character before their power brgun
> to rival their own.
>
At lower levels, individual PC's aren't likely to get noticed. At 15th+
level,
I think that the Magian/Gorgon/Raven is going to have a very hard time
of it.
Why? 1) PC's usually will ally to deal with threats on that scale, and 4
15th+
level PC's have a good shot at killing the Gorgon if he comes
personally. 2)
If he sends an army he has to go through all the domains between the
mage and him,
with the mages magical powers opposing it. 3) Assasination attempts
against high
level mages inside their own castles/towers have this tendency to fail
99% of the
time. Also, note that if it was easy to kill a high level character,
somebody
would have already killed the gorgon/magian/raven.
- --

Pieter A de Jong
Graduate Mechanical Engineering Student
University of Saskatchewan, Saskatoon, Canada

[Pieter A de Jong]

Bernardo79@aol.com wrote:
>
> I have a question. Why does the wish spell have to exist on Cerilia? Plus,
> as the gods would most likely put a stop to any being trying to become a demi-
> god with magic. Its a nice senario but any DM worth their salt would see to
> it, that first off no PC would have a wish spell, and second that they not
> ever be allowed such a power on an already powerful enough world. I as a GM
> not a MHGM (monty hall) feel that the roleplaying isn't in the levels but in
> the fun. All of my players have fun, so the campaigns don't get boring. And
> my characters rarely make it past 11th lvl. The usually grow too old, or die.
> There is a reason that there are not big time adventurers a-plenty in gaming
> worlds... the Death and Dismemberment policy : )
>
Are you suggesting that you deliberately go out of your way to kill high
level
PC's? If not, I have difficulty believing you comments. You (as DM)
might
retire such PC's, but high level PC's invariably are tougher to kill off
than
low level ones, even in appropriate level adventures. In other words,
in general
PC's increase in levels. Secondly, even if your PC's aren't doing this,
what
about the Awnsheglien.
Finally, yes you can stop your players by "putting the fear of gods into
them"
after all your are the DM. However, I would question if the gods of
Birthright
would interfere. After all, they haven't intervened to destroy various
demigod
level awnsheglien/Ersheglien, in particular the Gorgon, the Serpent, the
Magian,
and the Raven. Not to mention that the gods seem to have a no direct
intervention
policy with regards to the Cerilian continent at least.

Pieter A de Jong
Graduate Mechanical Engineering Student
University of Saskatchewan, Saskatoon, Canada

[Pieter A de Jong]

Ryan Freire wrote:
>
> The wish spell puts a horrible horrible drain on anyone casting it,
> aging them and causing them to take to bed for 2d4 days after casting
> it. I believe it was overlooked in the PHB but Limited wish ages the
> caster 1 year for every 100 years of lifespan, i imagine wish (which
> says it ages the caster 5 years) should read 5 years for every 100 years
> of lifespan, thats a LOT! I imagine that this was overlooked since
> according to base d+d rules, only humans could reach a high enough level
> to cast wish spells. And the Gorgon isnt immortal per se, he just ages 1
> year for every century that passes, meaning he casts that spell and with
> a lifespan of around oh..we'll say 3000 years, since he got the ability
> during the mid range of his life, when he casts that spell he ages 150
> years, OUCH!
BTW, don't forget that liches are unaging as well as elves which means
you
still have to worry about the Magian, El-Shigul, and any other surviving
members of the lost (plus any PC liches).


> Elves, value living their lives to the fullest, and while
> it may not have MUCH of an effect on them, giving up time in their lives
> is NOT something elves would enjoy doing (too much like necromancy) so i
> personally would penalize any player-character elf doing this for bad
> roleplay.
Say what? I take it they are not allowed to cast realm spells either in
your game. Remember a realm spell lays you up for a month. Not to
mention making magic items (permanancy and enchant an item are both
extremely hard on the caster), and assorted other spells.


> Also an interesting rule was that it takes 10 wishes to raise
> a stat 1 point above 16. With the DM's twisting the wording to grant
> the wish in the most expedient manner possible that requires the least
> amount of power expended, using wishes becomes very risky as well.
>
Now this is something that I might use as a temporary solution. Yes, my
players are bright enough to figure out how to use a wish properly (when
they have time to figure it out).
- --

Pieter A de Jong
Graduate Mechanical Engineering Student
University of Saskatchewan, Saskatoon, Canada

[Pieter A de Jong]

Craig Dalrymple wrote:
>
>
>
> Life can be fun, :) especially when you are punishing your players...
>
You know, I don't think I'd like playing in your campaign very much when
you are deliberately trying to punish your players for using their
abilities to the fullest. Do you do this to high level fighters who
want
to learn weapon mastery? "Oh, you slipped while training an
accidentally
chopped off your foot, congratulations"
- --

Pieter A de Jong
Graduate Mechanical Engineering Student
University of Saskatchewan, Saskatoon, Canada

[Pieter A de Jong]

Gary V. Foss wrote:
>
>
> Anyway, this is the sort of thing that lies at the heart of my dislike of
> battlespells. First, I don't really like the idea of giving a magic user a
> much more powerful version of his low level spell as simply and easily as
> that. I've argued that wizards are under powered in BR terms, but giving a 1st
> level wizard the power to hit 200 guys with a magic missile isn't exactly what
> I had in mind.
True, this is a problem. Espcially when he gets to 5th level. Rain of
Fireballs/
lightning bolts/Hold Persons (For those of you who don't like ecological
damage)
anyone?


> Second, I don't quite get the rationalization for a middle step
> between regular spells and realm magic. Third, I don't see why it is
> necessary. If a mage wants a spell that effects an entire unit he should
> invent such a spell. That spell could either have a very large area of effect
> or be of unlimited duration so that he could cast it on all 200 members of a
> unit over a month or two. Why bother with a battlespell at all?
>
Mostly, because such larger areas of effect would require much higher
level spells,
making a low level mage in birthrigh even weaker. Also, some of the
effects given
as battle spells are ridiculously powerful, even for 9th level spells.
See for
example flying unit. Adapt it to boats, and use
permanence/Semi-permanence/wish.
Hello fleet of airships.


> One last point regarding spells. Is it just me or is the Improved Armor spell
> in the BoM (p92) too powerful? AC 2 with an unlimited duration? None of the
> players in my campaign have quite hit upon the realization that they could cast
> this spell on all their mounts and eliminate the need for barding, or that they
> could cast it on all the party members and give them an unarmored AC 2 whenever
> they are just hanging out at the castle. This spell in combination with a
> Stoneskin could make characters pretty near invulnerable for the first several
> rounds of any hand-to-hand fight.
>
Well, they probably haven't realized the power of the 1st level version
(Armor)
either. And well, it is not overpowered when compared to it's 1st level
counterpart. Compare fireball and magic missile. The power jump is
comparable,
and the level difference is 2 not 3.


> Gary
>
> ************************************************** *************************
> > - --

Pieter A de Jong
Graduate Mechanical Engineering Student
University of Saskatchewan, Saskatoon, Canada

[Ryan Freire]

>BTW, don't forget that liches are unaging as well as elves which >means
you still have to worry about the Magian, El-Shigul, and any >other
surviving members of the lost (plus any PC liches).

First off, im suprised you would allow a pc to become a lich and not
become an npc. And elves arent necessarily unaging, just immortal, Allan
Aleigh (sp?) is considered very old for an elf. As for liches, since
they essentially beome monsters (and ability stats become rathe r moot)
raising stats becomes moot, and since most liches have gathered a rather
large group of enemies by the time they make it to lichdom, spending 2d4
days incapacitated might not seem such a great plan when your enemies
may be stomping down to your lair.


>Say what? I take it they are not allowed to cast realm spells either
>in your game. Remember a realm spell lays you up for a month. Not >to
mention making magic items (permanancy and enchant an item are >both
extremely hard on the caster), and assorted other spells.

The rest from a realm spell is from the exhaustion for channeling
magical energies...not having a chunk of your life force ripped from
your body, in my game i expect elves to be very very reluctant to use
anything that smacks of necromancy (ie: spells that use life force to
bring their effects into being) Its not the time laid up they mind...its
the loss of some of their essence.

As for permanency, that is a spell that i feel is inaccurate for the
amount of magical items the base d+d rules would have someone give out
in a campaign. The average dragon hoard would have around three to six
constitution points worth of magical items according to base d+d rules.
What mage in his right mind is going to sacrifice his constitution to
make a weapon or armor +1? IMO permanency should only do con drain, when
cast on a living being, and the con drain should come from the being it
is cast upon


__________________________________________________ ____
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[Pieter A de Jong]

Ryan Freire wrote:
>
> >BTW, don't forget that liches are unaging as well as elves which >means
> you still have to worry about the Magian, El-Shigul, and any >other
> surviving members of the lost (plus any PC liches).
>
> First off, im suprised you would allow a pc to become a lich and not
> become an npc.

Why? In birthright PC's have the potential to become Ersheglien/
Awnsheglien, and at least a theoretical potential to ascend to divinity
(as the serpent seems to be doing). A lich retains it's own
personality,
intelligence and ability to make choices and therefore is a viable PC,
if
it is balanced within the game. It's not like PC's in my game are
restricted to only good/neutral alignments.



> And elves arent necessarily unaging, just immortal, Allan
> Aleigh (sp?) is considered very old for an elf. As for liches, since
> they essentially beome monsters (and ability stats become rather moot)
> raising stats becomes moot, and since most liches have gathered a rather
> large group of enemies by the time they make it to lichdom, spending 2d4
> days incapacitated might not seem such a great plan when your enemies
> may be stomping down to your lair.
>
You could make the same argument about normal PC's and NPC's using
wishes.
What makes you think a Lich won't be able to have minions to protect it
during this "down time".

> >Say what? I take it they are not allowed to cast realm spells either
> >in your game. Remember a realm spell lays you up for a month. Not >to
> mention making magic items (permanancy and enchant an item are >both
> extremely hard on the caster), and assorted other spells.
>
> The rest from a realm spell is from the exhaustion for channeling
> magical energies...not having a chunk of your life force ripped from
> your body, in my game i expect elves to be very very reluctant to use
> anything that smacks of necromancy (ie: spells that use life force to
> bring their effects into being) Its not the time laid up they mind...its
> the loss of some of their essence.
>
Since when does casting a wish rip a chunk of your life force from your
body? It's not a level drain effect. Rather the aging effect is a
severe
strain generated by channeling large mystic energies, rather like a
realm
spell. Only a realm spell has no permanent effects as the majority of
the
power of the realm spell is actually channeled through the mages
sources.
Note that this is assumed not to occur in a Wish spell as it was
designed
for generic AD&D where there are no bloodlines and associated sources.
This
view is supported by the fact the the wish spell is classified as
conjuration/summoning rather than necromancy. Also, I would suggest
that a
simple portion of the casters life force is simply not enough power to
do
all the things a wish can potentially do.

> As for permanency, that is a spell that i feel is inaccurate for the
> amount of magical items the base d+d rules would have someone give out
> in a campaign. The average dragon hoard would have around three to six
> constitution points worth of magical items according to base d+d rules.
> What mage in his right mind is going to sacrifice his constitution to
> make a weapon or armor +1? IMO permanency should only do con drain, when
> cast on a living being, and the con drain should come from the being it
> is cast upon
>
I agree with you, and this is in fact the official TSR viewpoint. No
con.
drain unless cast on a living being. However, permanency and many other
spells (eg. haste) are considered to have a negative effect on the
casters
health. Do you bar all such spells from elves?
- --

Pieter A de Jong
Graduate Mechanical Engineering Student
University of Saskatchewan, Saskatoon, Canada

[Pieter Sleijpen]

Permanancy only draines constitution when it is cast to make a spell
permanent on an other person, not when crafting a magical item. I am not
sure where I hear or read this, but I am quite sure this is even
official canon. There are some heavty difficulties in creating magical
items anyway, not to mention the costs. My players need a stone-to-flesh
spell, which is a sixth level spell. So I have recently calculated that
this will cost a mimum of 4 GB, since it is a private investment the
ruler will not grant any GB from the treasury. Still money is hardly the
problem, it will take at least 3 full actions to ressearch the spell and
which 12th lvl true mage (and most likely regent) can afford that much
time away from the realm? Any 12th lvl mage is either a regent or famous
and a lot of people will be asking their help.

This brings me to people suggestion casting the same spell for months.
No regent in his right mind will be able to do that. A PC mage once
tried to research a certain spell and due to random events (yes I use
them, so flame me) he never was able to finish the research and in the
end he gave it up. Then I am not even mentioning non-random events, like
rival mages who love to take their chance and upsurp some sources if the
researching mage is away for some time.

[Pieter Sleijpen]

Mages are powerfull and that is how it is supposed to be. The problems
thar pointed at in this discusion hardly problems of Birthrigh alone.
The difference is that there are not that many powerfull mages on
Cerilia and most of them happen to be the evil, on conquest minded
bastards. These mages as of yet do not rule the world, so it appears
there are some limitations on their magic. I think that this is were
this discusion is about, it certainly is not about limiting the
hard-earned power of PC's.

The most important check on the power of a mage is the fact that while
he might be immortal, time does not stop for them. A mage can not leave
his domain unchecked for long, there are bound to be attacks, upsurption
attempts, assassinations, natural dissasters, etc. Appointing
lieutenants and other people to solve these problems will not help in
the long run. It will only help to make the lieutenant more powerfull
and liked by the populace (if he manages to solve the problem). Not to
mention that the trust of evil people for other people is rather
limited. A month on bed is nothing for an elf, but what if the country
is invaded at that moment? Enemies also have magic available and they
will use it to spy or determine the best moment to attack. The fact that
mages or very rare is a two edged knife, there are few with the power to
oppose you, but also very few to help you. So when planning to do
something as lengthy as we are discussing here a lot of preperation and
spying should proceed.

An other way to limit the power of certain spells somewhat, is by
looking at the description of the spell and comparing it with other
spells or magical abilities/items and their limitations. A wizard can
have only one homunaclus and one familiar, if the 'reincarnation' gets a
part of the soul of the creature duplicated, then it would not be
difficult to assume that there is a limit on the ammount of simulacri
for one person. Sure, it is not in the rules, but I do not think that it
is that troublesome. As a player I would accept that limitation. Other
people might not like to give such broad interpretations to things
described in the spell descriptions. But I think they are needed
sometimes for game balance or just plain roleplaying. Why else would
some persons forbid battle magic, while it is an official rule? Isn't
that doing exactly the same? Limiting the power of magic to help suspend
disbelieve and create some balance.

[Sindre Berg]

Pieter Sleijpen wrote:

> A simple solution to the abuse of wishes would be to make the aging
> effect be on constitution. In stead of aging 5 years the person will
> lose an constitution effect that is not recoverable by a wish spell.
> This would certainly stand for the draining effect of the spell. I
> think
> this is much better anyway, since the mage that is able to cast a wish
>
> probably can develop potions that reduce the mage in age. For liches
> and
> other undead the drain in constitution could show itself in a hastened
>
> rotting or desintegrating of the body and reduce an ammount of the
> maximum hit points that the creature can have.
> Remember that a wish spell can copy any other spell and in the
> case of
> the spell made permanent, this can be dispeled with a simple dispel
> magic (this is just a simple combination of a permanency and an other
> spell).
>
> *******
> ************************************************** *****************
> To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the
> line
> If I'm going to be a real rules-lawyer... If you reread the Permanency
spell it says any personal spell made permanent can only be dispelled by
a wizard of higher level, and since the wizard casting the wish spell is
18th at least it narrows down quite a bit how many who could dispel it,
and even then in the campaigns I've played you then have to roll high
enough on the d20.

- --
Sindre

Take a look at my homepage and Birthright PBMG at:

www.uio.no/~sindrejb

[Sindre Berg]

Gary V. Foss wrote:

> Ryan Freire wrote:
>
> > The wish spell puts a horrible horrible drain on anyone casting it,
> > aging them and causing them to take to bed for 2d4 days after
> casting
> > it. I believe it was overlooked in the PHB but Limited wish ages
> the
> > caster 1 year for every 100 years of lifespan, i imagine wish (which
>
> > says it ages the caster 5 years) should read 5 years for every 100
> years
> > of lifespan, thats a LOT! I imagine that this was overlooked since
> > according to base d+d rules, only humans could reach a high enough
> level
> > to cast wish spells.
>
> > And the Gorgon isnt immortal per se, he just ages 1
> > year for every century that passes, meaning he casts that spell and
> with
> > a lifespan of around oh..we'll say 3000 years, since he got the
> ability
> > during the mid range of his life, when he casts that spell he ages
> 150
> > years, OUCH!
>
> Hmmm. I suppose I could rule this way if I were hard-pressed. I
> don't really
> get this kind of feeling off the description of the Long Life
> ability. That
> description makes it sound much more like lifespan is not being
> extended, but
> that the effects of time on aging are slowed down. It's a subtle
> distinction,
> but one that I think counters the lifespan argument.
>
> I also have a problem in that I have ruled that blood abilities are
> generally
> more powerful than spell effects. That is, if there is a conflict
> between a
> blood ability and a spell, the blood ability wins. The power of the
> gods, I
> figure, is stronger than a spell. For instance, a druid casts Charm
> Person or
> Mammal on a cat controlled by a scion with the Animal Affinity, Brenna
>
> (great). Both characters vie for control over the animal. I think
> the
> character with the blood ability wins automatically.
>
> The point is that Wish is a spell. I think blood abilities should
> have more
> effect on characters than spells, so I would probably have to rule
> that the
> Long Life blood ability takes precedence over the aging effects of the
> Wish
> spell.
>
> > Elves, value living their lives to the fullest, and while
> > it may not have MUCH of an effect on them, giving up time in their
> lives
> > is NOT something elves would enjoy doing (too much like necromancy)
> so i
> > personally would penalize any player-character elf doing this for
> bad
> > roleplay.
>
> I don't know. I admit no one wants to be in bed for 2d4 days. (Well,
> that's
> not true, I'd rather like to spend that much time in bed.) But the
> payoff is
> certainly worth it, even for elves. What's a week to an elf?
>
> > Also an interesting rule was that it takes 10 wishes to raise
> > a stat 1 point above 16.
>
> Given the relative lifespans what is 10 wishes to these folks?
>
> > With the DM's twisting the wording to grant
> > the wish in the most expedient manner possible that requires the
> least
> > amount of power expended, using wishes becomes very risky as well.
>
> Twisting the wording of a Wish is certainly an option, but how is a DM
> to twist
> the wording of a Wish used to increase an ability score? The player
> just says,
> "I wish I was more intelligent." How am I supposed to twist the
> wording of
> that wish in a way that isn't totally and ridiculously contrived? Say
> the same
> character wanted to make the Protection from Normal Missiles spell
> that he had
> just cast upon himself permanent. He would just say "I wish the
> Protection
> from Normal Missiles spell I just cast upon myself was permanent."
> That's
> pretty difficult to twist the wording on.
>
> Gary
>
> ****
> ************************************************** ********************
>
> To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the
> line
> My old DM required that every casting of any wish spell (Minor, Limited,
Full) had to be said with an IC rhyme...then twisting gets really
easy...And it made great fun too...especially if we wanted affects like
the ones you mentioned...

- --
Sindre

Take a look at my homepage and Birthright PBMG at:

www.uio.no/~sindrejb

[Sindre Berg]

einarh@fagerborg.vgs.no wrote:

> >Speaking of time. I noticed something a while back during a
> conversation
> with a
> >guy playing the High Mage Aelies in a PBeM. We were discussing his
> plans for
> >his character and I mentioned that if someone with the Long Life
> blood
> ability
> >at Great strength could reach 18th level of magic use, he would
> become as
> near
> >to demi-god powerful as is imaginable for a PC. Normally, a
> character ages 5
> >years when casting a wish spell (it's unclear effect casting spells
> that
> cause
> >aging would have on a BR elf , but I'm inclined to think no aging
> effects
> would
> >occur) so he could potentially cast 20 Wishes and only age a year.
> Such a
> >character could cast Wish spells then and raise his abilities to
> godlike
> >proportions. He could cast spells on his person and Wish them
> permanent. He
> >could wish himself all kinds of things and pay a price much less
> stringent
> than
> >the rules intended.
>
> DMs call =) If someone tries to use loopholes in my campaign I'd be a
> little nasty.
> (but, if a mage *wants* to spend a year in his castle casting wishes
> he can
> do so)
> I'd attempt to twart his words as much as possible.
> AD&D is not made for characters spending weeks/years honing their
> skills, but
> rather for characters that adventure nearly constantly.
> Actually... I never think I've ever had time to relax in the campaigns
> I'm
> participating in. heh...
>
> >This is an interesting loophole in the game. How does casting Wish
> spells
> age
> >immortal elves? Does the blood ability Long Life reduce the aging
> effects of
> >such spells? I don't have my copy of the Gorgon's cardsheet handy at
> the
> >moment, so I don't recall if he is of high enough level as a mage (if
> that
> >version of him is used) to cast Wishes, but if so he is pretty near
> unstoppable,
> >except by a being with similar abilities.
> >
> >Of course, such a person would still have to rest the 2d4 days
> required per
> >casting of the spell, but one of the aspects of the BR setting is
> that
> time is
> >often dealt with in a different manner. A player could spend a month
> casting
> >Wish spells and not terribly disadvantage himself. Besides, we are
> talking
> >about immortal characters here, so what is a year or two to them?
> 2d4 is an
> >average of 5 days bed rest per casting, so that's six Wishes a month.
>
>

Well first of all even in my friends (now finished) pretty monty haul FR
campaign none of the mages got anything higher than Limited Wish in
their spellbooks (we did get like 12 scrolls or something in total),
this is an important way of stopping this. Never let the players get
their hands on the wish spell. Failing that you can take a look at how
the Limited Wish spell handles aging (1 year, PER 100 years of normal
life-span), and last who said Long Life works on spells at all!! It is
a combination set up for DM determination. And as Seb said the wording
is critical, and the DM is after all GOD (not a little puny demi-God :)

> >
> >As long as I'm on the subject of time and magic, I've also suggested
> in a
> PBeM I
> >was playing in that a few magic wielding regents get together and
> begin
> casting
> >Polymorph Other spells on horses, changing them into pegasi. A
> couple of
> mages
> >acting together could create enough magical mounts to outfit a unit
> of flying
> >cavalry in only a few weeks. Again, this is not a lot of time in BR
> terms, and
> >could lead to some pretty nasty situations.
>
> Heh... oups, try to find those 10 (?) 7th level mages needed.
> *and* cooperate. I'd think such a feat impossible.
> But if one takes the Emerald Queen for example, she could cast 4
> 'polymorph
> other' per day. = 120 per month. And I think a cavalry war card needs
> 50
> horses or something. (oups.. I've never thought of this idea before).
> And she would still be able to take normal actions, as it only takes a
>
> couple of minutes each day to polymorph them.
>

Well it takes a few minutes per spell + 8 hours of good rest AND 1hour
and 20min per Polymorph any Object memorized...

> >Because of the way time is used in the domain rules portion of the
> game
> the low
> >magic emphasis of BR could be effectively neutralized. Should mages
> actually
> >begin casting the kinds of spells I'm talking about it could alter
> the
> face of
> >Cerilia.
>
> Hmm.. restrict the power of wish then. Anyway, 18th level character
> *does*
> have an impact on the world, no matter what world we are talking
> about.
>
> >Well, what do you folks think? Am I nuts or could this kind of thing
> easily
> >happen?
>
> Nope! I'd say it won't happen.
> If he tries to do that, the Magian or the Gorgon would have taken
> notice of
> him, and would prolly try to slay such a character before their power
> brgun
> to rival their own.
>

BTW: How many 18th level mages are there ? Only the Magian as far as I
can remember !

> Siebharrin the Lich
>
> *******************
> ************************************************** *****
> To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the
> line
> - --
Sindre

Take a look at my homepage and Birthright PBMG at:

www.uio.no/~sindrejb

[Gary V. Foss]

Sindre Berg wrote:

> Well first of all even in my friends (now finished) pretty monty haul FR
> campaign none of the mages got anything higher than Limited Wish in
> their spellbooks (we did get like 12 scrolls or something in total),
> this is an important way of stopping this. Never let the players get
> their hands on the wish spell.

In the BR setting, players can often pick up a PC at a very high level. In my
pen and paper campaign, everyone starts with a new, 1st level character, but
the conversation that I cited at the beginning of this thread was with a player
in a PBeM who was playing the High Mage Aelies.

> Failing that you can take a look at how
> the Limited Wish spell handles aging (1 year, PER 100 years of normal
> life-span), and last who said Long Life works on spells at all!! It is
> a combination set up for DM determination. And as Seb said the wording
> is critical, and the DM is after all GOD (not a little puny demi-God :)

I never really agreed with the rationalization for that change in the 2nd
edition description of the Limited Wish spell. It makes the effects of the
spell different depending upon race, which doesn't make a lot of sense to me.
The spell requires more power for an elf than it does for a human? It must
since it is aging him ten years and only aging a human a year.

I know the argument in response to this is going to be that the physical
effects of the spell are just represented by aging. It causes relatively the
same amount of drain upon an elf as on a human, and should be represented in
the same way physically, but I don't buy that. Elves live longer as part of
their nature. To me, when it comes to aging, elves are endurance runners. The
amount of energy that it takes for someone to run ten miles is the same for a
jogger or a non-jogger, but the race is going to take more out of the
non-jogger than the jogger, because of their physical attributes. Same thing
for elves and aging.

> Well it takes a few minutes per spell + 8 hours of good rest AND 1hour
> and 20min per Polymorph any Object memorized...

I thought it was 10 min/level of the spell to be memorized. That would make it
40 minutes of study per casting, plus a night's sleep. (We can't really count
sleep as work here can we?) The casting time of the spell is under a minute,
so if someone hired an 11th level wizard to cast three Polymorph Other spells
on a daily basis, his workday would be just over two hours. Only people who
work for the government have it that easy in Western society.

> BTW: How many 18th level mages are there ? Only the Magian as far as I
> can remember !

I grant you that there are only a few. Even lower level guys can be pretty
powerful using some of the methods described on this thread.

Gary

[einarh@fagerborg.vgs.n]

>BTW: How many 18th level mages are there ? Only the Magian as far as I
>can remember !

Ohh.. The Magian, Grand Mistress Llaeddra of Lluabraight and
Siebharrinn "the Lich" of Lychgate...

And those dragons. (I think the vos dragon source-regent has
the abilities of a 21st, but I'm not sure)
Thats the ones I know about.

Siebharrin the Lich =)

[Gary V. Foss]

Mark A Vandermeulen wrote:

> On Mon, 26 Oct 1998, Pieter A de Jong wrote:
>
> > For my own contributions consider the possibilities of invisible
> > stalkers (or demons/
> > other creatures for the lower planes). Conjure a stalker and tell it to
> > wait for 1
> > week, cooperate with the other stalkers you will summon in that period,
> > and then go
> > and assinate another regent (or worse yet, kidnap for bloodtheft). If
> > you can cast one
> > invisible stalker spell/day, that is 7,8 HD, flying, invisible, silent
> > assasins who
> > are also faultless trackers. Equip them with poisoned short swords to
> > make the kill
> > even more certain. You could kill regents, whole courts full of
> > functionaries, or even
> > just set them loose in someone elses province with orders to kill as
> > many
> > people/goblins/elves/halflings as possible in a month. An individual
> > stalker could
> > massacre a whole town in an evening. As a group, without organized
> > magical defenses,
> > they would be nearly invincible.
>
> Just another reason why any Anuirean politico wanting to play the "game of
> thrones" had better get himself one damn good court wizard he can trust.
> Of course, Mr. Evil Wizard had better be fully prepaired for the soon-to-
> ensue war in which the main goal will be returning home with his head on a
> pike, or if that is impossible, the complete ruination of all of his
> Source holdings. Equal and opposite reactions, and all. Plus, putting a
> price on someone's head is perfectly acceptable in defence of a realm for
> a Lawful Good regent.

One of the scary aspects of the scenario Pieter suggested with Invisible
Stalkers is that it would be pretty difficult to trace the exact source of the
summoned creatures. They are, after all, invisible air elementals who leave no
footprints to retrace. If one were going to send these monsters in to wreak
havoc in another realm the spellcaster could tell them to travel 100 miles into
enemy territory before beginning their killing spree. According to the spell
they will go "hundreds or thousands of miles away" to accomplish their mission.

I grant you that a nation who already has enmity with a rival mage would
probably have no problem figuring out the source of the monsters, but what if
it weren't that obvious? What if Isealie wanted to attack Mhoried? Or the
Chimaeron wanted to attack Binsada?

One stumbling block to this scenario, however, is the movement rate of
Invisible Stalkers. They fly at a rate of 12. That's pretty slow. I don't
think Invisible Stalkers have to sleep or rest, so they could pretty much
travel 24 hours a day, but I believe that would still limit them to 57.6 miles
of travel a day. [An unencumbered man (movement 12) travels 24 miles in 10
hours (PHB 158) so a Stalker would travel 2.4 times that distance.] Of course,
this problem could be addressed by having the mage teleport to within a few
miles of his target if he also had access to that spell.

Carefully wording their instructions would probably be quite helpful, as would
having a good plan for the monsters to follow. If one wanted to have the
Stalkers perform a kidnapping, one could tell them to wait until 2:00AM when
the victim is in deep asleep, beat him into unconsciousness if necessary, but
one way or another grapple with him and fly out a window with him in tow. Fly
up several hundred feet and wait for him to stop struggling (which he would or
risk falling) and then fly on back "home" with him. How is anyone going to
follow? They probably can't see him in the dark of night, but even if they
could the spellcaster could give the Stalkers a Potion of Invisibility and
instruct them to pour it down their target's gullet, making him invisible long
enough for them to get out of eyesight.

Many regents are going to have some sort of magical protection to defend
themselves against this kind of attack, but many of the less magically inclined
would not. Even for those that were protected, what about their servants?
What if a spellcaster were to kidnap the Minister of State for some nation
using Invisible Stalkers and then question him by casting a few Hypnotism,
Suggestion and Charm Person spells? I always thought the telepathic link
created by the Domination spell in combination with its charming effects would
be a pretty effective method of interrogation....

Speaking of Charm spells, it is pretty clear from the PHB that someone can be
under the effects of more than one type of charm at a time. Does that mean the
same spellcaster could cast Charm Person on the same creature several times in
order to assure he would remain charmed should one of the spells wear off? If
only one Charm Person is possible per spellcaster, could the same spellcaster
use several different charm type spells in order to do the same thing? Could
he use Charm Person, Charm Monster and Domination in order to triple up his
protection?

As long as I'm on the subject of spellcasting, what is the weight of a GB? I
would think it would not be more that 200 lbs. If that is the case, a 12th
level mage (who can teleport with up to 600 pounds) could teleport into a
nation's treasury and teleport himself out with 3GB couldn't he? Since he gets
four 5th level spells he could do this twice in the space of only a few
minutes. He would, of course, face the possibility of getting trapped in
stone, etc. but that's still not a bad payoff for such a small amount of
effort. In my campaign I have made GBs worth 10,000gp and they weigh 1,000
pounds, so this is not as much of a problem, but I thought I'd bring it up for
the sake of pure contentiousness. :)

Gary

[Pieter A de Jong]

Gary V. Foss wrote:
>
> Mark A Vandermeulen wrote:
>
> > On Mon, 26 Oct 1998, Pieter A de Jong wrote:
> >
> > > For my own contributions consider the possibilities of invisible
> > > stalkers (or demons/
> > > other creatures for the lower planes). Conjure a stalker and tell it to
> > > wait for 1
> > > week, cooperate with the other stalkers you will summon in that period,
> > > and then go
> > > and assinate another regent (or worse yet, kidnap for bloodtheft). If
> > > you can cast one
> > > invisible stalker spell/day, that is 7,8 HD, flying, invisible, silent
> > > assasins who
> > > are also faultless trackers. Equip them with poisoned short swords to
> > > make the kill
> > > even more certain. You could kill regents, whole courts full of
> > > functionaries, or even
> > > just set them loose in someone elses province with orders to kill as
> > > many
> > > people/goblins/elves/halflings as possible in a month. An individual
> > > stalker could
> > > massacre a whole town in an evening. As a group, without organized
> > > magical defenses,
> > > they would be nearly invincible.
> >
> > Just another reason why any Anuirean politico wanting to play the "game of
> > thrones" had better get himself one damn good court wizard he can trust.
> > Of course, Mr. Evil Wizard had better be fully prepaired for the soon-to-
> > ensue war in which the main goal will be returning home with his head on a
> > pike, or if that is impossible, the complete ruination of all of his
> > Source holdings. Equal and opposite reactions, and all. Plus, putting a
> > price on someone's head is perfectly acceptable in defence of a realm for
> > a Lawful Good regent.
>
> One of the scary aspects of the scenario Pieter suggested with Invisible
> Stalkers is that it would be pretty difficult to trace the exact source of the
> summoned creatures. They are, after all, invisible air elementals who leave no
> footprints to retrace. If one were going to send these monsters in to wreak
> havoc in another realm the spellcaster could tell them to travel 100 miles into
> enemy territory before beginning their killing spree. According to the spell
> they will go "hundreds or thousands of miles away" to accomplish their mission.
>
Not to mention that defense (from fortified positions) is usually much
easier
than offense. A mage after achieving a stalemate, with his own troops
supported by
magical defenses could easily start to chip away at an enemies command
structure
with this kind of a method.

> I grant you that a nation who already has enmity with a rival mage would
> probably have no problem figuring out the source of the monsters, but what if
> it weren't that obvious? What if Isealie wanted to attack Mhoried? Or the
> Chimaeron wanted to attack Binsada?
>
I suspect that it might get difficult even for nations that know they
have a
mage that is hostile to them. All you know is that the regent
dissapeared in
the middle of the night! Usually, most regents have more than one set
of
enemies.

> One stumbling block to this scenario, however, is the movement rate of
> Invisible Stalkers. They fly at a rate of 12. That's pretty slow. I don't
> think Invisible Stalkers have to sleep or rest, so they could pretty much
> travel 24 hours a day, but I believe that would still limit them to 57.6 miles
> of travel a day. [An unencumbered man (movement 12) travels 24 miles in 10
> hours (PHB 158) so a Stalker would travel 2.4 times that distance.] Of course,
> this problem could be addressed by having the mage teleport to within a few
> miles of his target if he also had access to that spell.
>
Isn't their a multiplier on the movement rate depending on the terrain
you are
travelling over? I believe that the multiplier is greater than one for
good
roads. As a DM, I would consider flying movement to be over good roads
in all
but the worst weather conditions. This might slightly improve the range
of such
a tactic.


> Carefully wording their instructions would probably be quite helpful, as would
> having a good plan for the monsters to follow. If one wanted to have the
> Stalkers perform a kidnapping, one could tell them to wait until 2:00AM when
> the victim is in deep asleep, beat him into unconsciousness if necessary, but
> one way or another grapple with him and fly out a window with him in tow. Fly
> up several hundred feet and wait for him to stop struggling (which he would or
> risk falling) and then fly on back "home" with him. How is anyone going to
> follow? They probably can't see him in the dark of night, but even if they
> could the spellcaster could give the Stalkers a Potion of Invisibility and
> instruct them to pour it down their target's gullet, making him invisible long
> enough for them to get out of eyesight.
>
> Many regents are going to have some sort of magical protection to defend
> themselves against this kind of attack, but many of the less magically inclined
> would not. Even for those that were protected, what about their servants?
> What if a spellcaster were to kidnap the Minister of State for some nation
> using Invisible Stalkers and then question him by casting a few Hypnotism,
> Suggestion and Charm Person spells? I always thought the telepathic link
> created by the Domination spell in combination with its charming effects would
> be a pretty effective method of interrogation....
>
> Speaking of Charm spells, it is pretty clear from the PHB that someone can be
> under the effects of more than one type of charm at a time. Does that mean the
> same spellcaster could cast Charm Person on the same creature several times in
> order to assure he would remain charmed should one of the spells wear off? If
> only one Charm Person is possible per spellcaster, could the same spellcaster
> use several different charm type spells in order to do the same thing? Could
> he use Charm Person, Charm Monster and Domination in order to triple up his
> protection?
>
> As long as I'm on the subject of spellcasting, what is the weight of a GB? I
> would think it would not be more that 200 lbs. If that is the case, a 12th
> level mage (who can teleport with up to 600 pounds) could teleport into a
> nation's treasury and teleport himself out with 3GB couldn't he? Since he gets
> four 5th level spells he could do this twice in the space of only a few
> minutes. He would, of course, face the possibility of getting trapped in
> stone, etc. but that's still not a bad payoff for such a small amount of
> effort. In my campaign I have made GBs worth 10,000gp and they weigh 1,000
> pounds, so this is not as much of a problem, but I thought I'd bring it up for
> the sake of pure contentiousness. :)
>
In my own campaign, gold bars don't actually exist. They are used as a
unit of
measurement, but are composed of actual currency (ie. chests of coin,
and in some
cases, gems and jewelry).

Pieter A de Jong
Graduate Mechanical Engineering Student
University of Saskatchewan, Saskatoon, Canada

[Kenneth Gauck]

- -----Original Message-----
From: Gary V. Foss
Date: Wednesday, October 28, 1998 10:26 AM


>Mark A Vandermeulen wrote:
>
>[...] If one wanted to have the [Invisible] Stalkers perform a kidnapping,
one
>could tell them to wait until 2:00AM when the victim is in deep asleep,
beat him
>into unconsciousness if necessary, but one way or another grapple with him
>and fly out a window with him in tow. [....]
>
>As long as I'm on the subject of spellcasting, what is the weight of a GB?
I
>would think it would not be more that 200 lbs. If that is the case, a 12th
>level mage (who can teleport with up to 600 pounds) could teleport into a
>nation's treasury and teleport himself out with 3GB couldn't he?

In general I prefer a low magic world. Maids do not clean with cantrips,
nor do chefs enhance the flavor of food with spells. However, historically,
the wealthy did attempt to obtain charms, fetishes, wards, glyphs, &c, &c to
protect themselves from this kind of thing. If historical people invested
in such protections, NPC's are hardly going to over-look them. I would
advise players attempting to do this that its not going to work without
specifically identifying the wards and charms in place and countering them.

Kenneth Gauck
c558382@earthlink.net