(d20 Atlas) Deciding on Regent's Vitals

[Raesene Andu]

This is an opportunity for anyone to participate in the d20 Atlas of Cerilia project by deciding on the classes and levels of Anuire's regents. I've included a sorted list of all the regent's in question (modified for the new scion classes).

Obviously the changes introduced in 3rd edition D&D (as well as in the d20 Birthright Rulebook) mean that Anuire's regents are no longer as resticted in their choice of class and race and many may now decided to change to a new class, or multi-class, or even stay as they are. It is up to you to decide their new classes and levels, before I do...

If you think a particular regent needs to change, cut and paste his or her information into a reply with the changes you think are needed and I'll consider them for inclusion in the Atlas as that regent's new official vital statistics. And remember, nothing is sacred, but I'm going to reject anything un-Birthright, so put away your copies of the FRCS.

Note: You don't need to work out all their stats, just class and level. I'd prefer alignment and bloodline to remain as is, but will listen to any arguments for changes. Also, the prestige class list for the Atlas has not been finalised yet (I will be posting the various prestige classes at a later date for comment and alteration), so for now I'd prefer only prestige classes from the 3.5 DMG be considered.

REGENT’S LIST (ANUIRE) High Mage Aelies (LN male half-elf, Wiz 13/Sha 3/Scion 1 [Vorynn, major, 36])*
Carilon Alam (NE male Anuirean, Nbl 2/Scion 1 [Basaïa, major, 46])
Mourde Alondir (LN male Anuirean, Rog 1 [Masela, minor, 15])
Rogr Aglondier (NG male Anuirean, Wiz 3 [Masela, minor, 21])
Bannier Andien (LE male Anuirean, Rog 7 [Anduiras, minor, 21])
Torele Anviras (LE male Anuirean, Wiz 10/Scion 1 [Anduiras, major, 35])
James Ardannt (LG male Anuirean, Pal 5 [Reynir, minor, 16])
Hubaere Armiendin (LG male Anuirean, Clr 11 (Haelyn)/Scion 1 [Anduiras, major, 27)
Darien Avan (LN male Anuirean, Nbl 10/Scion 2 [An, great, 70])
Hand of Azrai (LN female Vos, Clr 10 (Azrai)/DisA 7)*
Linnias Baccaere (CN male Anuirean, Clr 7 (Cuiraécen) [Masela, minor, 17)
Mheallie Bireon (CE female Anuirean, Rog 8/Scion 1 [Brenna, major, 37])
Aeric Boeruine (LN male Anuirean, Ftr 10/Nbl 2/Scion 1 [An, major, 60])
Arien Borthein (CN male Anuirean, Rog 3 [Re, minor, 14])
Günther Brandt (CG male Brecht, Clr 10 (Erik)/Scion 1 [Reynir, major, 32])
Lavalan Briesen (LG male Anuirean, Clr 5 (Haelyn)/Scion 1 [Anduiras, major, 30])
Caine (NG male Anuirean, Wiz 10/Scion 1 [Vorynn, major, 27])
Eluvie Cariele (CG female Anuirean, Rgr 2 [Masela, minor, 23])
The Chimaera (CE female awnshegh, Wiz 13 [Azrai, minor, 38])
Temias Coumain (LN male Anuirean, Clr 6 (Sarimie) [Brenna, minor, 24])
Maire Cwillmie (NG female Anuirean, Clr 6 (Nesirie) [Masela, minor, 12])
Assan ibn Daouta (LG male Khinasi, Pal 10/Scion 1 [Basaïa, major, 47]
Heirl Diem (LN male Anuirean, Nbl 7/Scion 1 [Brenna, major, 42]
Daeric Dhoesone (CG male Anuirean, Wiz 3 [Anduiras, minor, 20])
Clumine Dhoesone (LG male Anuirean, Wiz 3/Scion 1 [Vorynn, major, 25)
Fhiele Dhoesone (N female half-elf, Rog 6/Scion 1 [Reynir, major, 46])
Thuriene Donalls (LG female Anuirean, Clr 6 (Haelyn)/Scion 1 [Anduiras, major, 30])
Adaere Doneim (CE male Anuirean, Rog 5 [Reynir, minor, 17])
Caliedhe Dosiere (LG male Anuirean, Mag 7/Nbl 13/Scion 2 [Anduiras, great, 64])
El-Hadid (LE male Khinasi, Rog 3 [Brenna, minor, 10])
Suris Enlien (NG female Anuirean, Clr 4 (Ruornil)/Scion 1 [Reynir, major, 32])
Eyeless One (CE unknown race, Wiz 9/Scion 1 [Vorynn, major, 35])
Razzik Fanggrabber (LE female goblin, Ftr 4 [Azrai, minor, 2])
Laela Flaertes (NG female half-elf, Brd 4 [Brenna, minor, 35])
Fhileraene (N male elf, Ftr 4/Wiz 6/Scion 2 [Reynir, great, 55])
Fhylie the Sword (CG female half-elf, Clr 6 (Cuiraécen) [Anduiras, minor, 18])
Siele Ghoried (LG male Anuirean, Rog 4 [Masela, minor, 21])
Entier Gladanil (NE male Anuirean, Nbl 5 [Anduiras, minor, 20])
The Gorgon (LE male awnshegh, Ftr 25/Wiz 16/Scion 2 [Azrai, true, 100+])
Tie’skar Graecher (LE male goblin, Ftr 7 [Azrai, minor, 24])
Grim Graybeard (LG male dwarf, Ftr 5/Clr 6 (Moradin)/Scion 1 [Anduiras, major, 38])
Medhlorie Haensen (LG female Anuirean, Clr 2 (Avani)/Scion 1 [Anduiras, major, 36])
Hermedhie (LN female Anuirean, Wiz 7/Scion 1 [Vorynn, major, 24])
Ghorien Hiriele (CE male Anuirean, Rog 9 [Anduiras, minor, 20])
Storm Holtson (CN male Rjurik, Rog 6/Scion 1 [Brenna, major, 28])
Parnien Iniere (LN male Anuirean, Rog 2 [Brenna, minor, 15])
Innes (LN male Anuirean, Wiz 7 [Vorynn, minor, 19])
Isaelie (N female elf, Wiz 13/Scion 1 [Vorynn, major, 42])
Tugaere Issimane (CG male Anuirean, Clr 9 (Cuiraécen)/Scion 1 [An, major, 38])
Guilder Kalien (NE male half-elf, Rog 8/Scion 1 [Brenna, major, 30])
Harald Khorien (NG male Anuirean, Wiz 4/Scion 1 [Anduiras, major, 33])
Elamien Lamier (LN female Anuirean, Rog 2 [Brenna, minor, 25])
Moerele Lannaman (CG male Anuirean, Rog 4/Scion 1 [Brenna, major, 29])
Peak Mage (N female Anuirean, Wiz 8/Scion 1 [Anduiras, major, 32])
Swamp Mage (NE male Anuirean, Wiz 11 [Reynir, minor, 15])
2nd Swamp Mage (NG female Anuirean, Wiz 10 [Vorynn, minor, 15])
Sword Mage (LE male Vos, Wiz 10/Scion 1 [Vorynn, major, 42])
Antia Maricoere (LG male Anuirean, Pal 6 [Anduiras, minor, 12])
Mhistecai (N female Anuirean, Wiz 6/Scion 1 [Vorynn, major, 45])
Daeric Mhoried (CG male Anuirean, Rgr 7/Scion 1 [Anduiras, major, 46])
Eriene Mierelen (NE female half-elf, Rog 7/Scion 1 [Basaïa, major, 41])
William Moergen (CG male Anuirean, Nbl 1/Rgr 4/Scion 1 [Anduiras, major, 35])
Rhobher Nichalier (LG male Anuirean, Clr 13 (Haelyn)/Scion 2 [Anduiras, great, 53])
Larra Nielems (NE female Anuirean, Clr 8 (Sarimie)/Scion 1 [Brenna, major, 32])
Jaison Raenech (LE male Anuirean, Ftr 7/Scion 1 [Brenna, major, 36])
Wincae Raenech (LE male Anuirean, Clr 5 (Cuiraécen)/Scion 1 [Brenna, major, 33])
Rhuobhe (NE male awnshegh, Ftr 16/Wiz 13/Scion 2 [Azrai, true, 95])
Regien (CN male Anuirean, Wiz 6/Scion 1 [Vorynn, major, 30])
Ruarch Rockhammer (LG male dwarf, Clr 11 (Moradin)/Scion 1 [Anduiras, major, 41])
Marlae Roesone (N female Anuirean, Ftr 5/Scion 1 [Brenna, major, 24])
Facellies Sloere (CG male Anuirean, Rog 2 [Anduiras, minor, 6])
Pyotr Selenie (CE male Vos, Bbn 1/Clr 3 (Belinik) [Anduiras, minor, 9])
Sarae Somellin (NE female Anuirean, Clr 4 (Eloéle) [Anduiras, minor, 28])
The Spider (CE male awnshegh, Ftr 13/Scion 2 [Azrai, true, 95])
Liliene Swordwraith (NG, female Anuirean, Rgr 10/Scion 1 [Anduiras, major, 37])
Gavin Tael (LE male Anuirean, Ftr 7/Nbl 2/Scion 1 [Reynir, major, 49])
Daffyd Tamaere (CG male Anuirean, Clr 7 (Nesirie) [Anduiras, minor, 17])
Orthien Tane (CN male Anuirean, Rog 3 [Anduiras, minor, 8])
Hyde Termonie (NG female Anuirean, Clr 4 (Sarimie) [Basaïa, minor, 4])
Gaelin Thuried (CN male Anuirean, Rog 4 [Brenna, minor, 12])
Godar Thurinson (LE male dwarf, Ftr 6 [Vorynn, tainted, 5])
Kral Two-Toes (LE male goblin, Clr 4 (Kartathok) [Azrai, minor, 10])
Phisaid Uriene (NG male Khinasi, Clr 4 (Nesirie) [Basaïa, minor, 14])
Arron Vaumel (NE male Anuirean, Rog 5 [Brenna, minor, 17])
Diirk Watershold (NG male dwarf, Rog 10 [Anduiras, minor, 29])
* Already altered slightly, adding levels of prestige classes to be included in the Atlas (Shadow Mage and Disciple of Azrai).

PS: This is not a must do overnight kind of thing, so you have a while to think about and discuss the choices before I close off this topic and finalised the regent information for the Atlas of Cerilia. But remember, this is your once chance to have any say on this matter, so if you feel strongly about changing any particualar regent, please post, otherwise the Atlas will include what I think it best, not what the community has decided on.

Note: Regents listed in red have been changed due to suggestions below. These are not final changes, just listed here to make them easier to see. If you disagree with any of these changes, post below with your reasons why.

[irdeggman]

There are none with levels of noble? Even though that class is still being decided it is significant for at least some of the regents.

Also since the use of prestige classes are purely optional (per the DMG pg 176) I would give none any levels in them, unless you include a varaint writeup listing them.

[Athos69]

I believe that Ian posted the extant list, straight from the 2nd Ed, and added teh Scion levels to those with Major and Great Bloodlines.

[irdeggman]

Originally posted by Athos69@Aug 29 2004, 12:00 PM
I believe that Ian posted the extant list, straight from the 2nd Ed, and added teh Scion levels to those with Major and Great Bloodlines.
Not exactly true.

He added in new "prestige class" levels for High Mage Aelies and Hand of Azrai.

[The Jew]

Assan Ibn Dauto has a major bloodline, but no scion level
Medhlorie Haensen has a major bloodline, but no scion level
Tugaere Issimane has major bloodline, but no scion leve

just a few minor mistakes

[Osprey]

Here's a few major changes I would like to see re. Nobles:

Darien Avan (LN male Anuirean, Nob 10/Scion 2 [An, great, 70])

Aeric Boeruine (LN male Anuirean, Nob 2/ Ftr 10/Scion 1 [An, major, 60])

Heirl Diem (LN male Anuirean, Nob 7/Scion 1 [Brenna, major, 42]

Carilon Alam (NE male Anuirean, Nob 2/Scion 1 [Basaïa, major, 46])

Eluvie Cariele (CG female Anuirean, Rgr 2 [Masela, minor, 23])

Gavin Tael (LE male Anuirean, Nob 2/Ftr 8/Scion 1 [Reynir, major, 49])

Ghorien Hiriele (CE male Anuirean, Rog 9 [Anduiras, minor, 20])

William Moergen (CG male Anuirean, Nob 1/Rgr 4/Scion 1 [Anduiras, major, 35])

Entier Gladanil (NE male Anuirean, Nob 5 [Anduiras, minor, 20])

Guilder Kalien (NE male half-elf, Rog 8/Scion 1 [Brenna, major, 30])

A few of these characters, given their general character histories and performance records, seem like they deserve higher levels than presented in RoE. Certainly Ghorien Hiriele, given his supposed "trade magic" abilities and extensive domain, would seem to be personally very capable as a guild regent (high enough to have Master Merchant and Master Administrator feats, for example). Likewise, Guilder Kalien is another long-standing manipulator with quite a colorful (and successful) history - something that should be reflected in his competence and levels. It's no mean feat keeping a single province domain intact!

Likewise, a few of these PC's could use at least a few levels of Noble to indicate their courtly upbringing and a decent range of base social skills. Aeric Boeruine, for instance, seems to have some degree of social/political skills even if he is mainly focused as a warrior-king archetype. Darien Avan, otoh, should be the consumate politician, but not really the equal of Boeruine on the battlefield. Hierl Diem, too, is another character who seems far better suited as a pure Noble - descended from a long line of proud nobles, infamous for his schemes and intrigue and certainly vested with a typically aristocratic attitude toward his "rightful" lands. A perfect Noble character if there ever was one! Entier Gladanil, too, the stuffed-up noble prig, makes an excellent courtier-type Noble.

[Raesene Andu]

Originally posted by irdeggman@Aug 30 2004, 02:27 AM
There are none with levels of noble? Even though that class is still being decided it is significant for at least some of the regents.

Also since the use of prestige classes are purely optional (per the DMG pg 176) I would give none any levels in them, unless you include a varaint writeup listing them.
As Athos noted, I haven't made changes to include noble levels yet as I'm waiting to see what everyone comes up with. Of course, I have my preferences as to which regent should have noble levels, but as this is an opportunity for everyone else to suggest changes they would like, I'm staying out of making suggestions for now.

Oh, and the Atlas will NOT contain any option or variant rules, just one listing per regent, so NPC will either start with levels in a prestige classes or not, they won't do both. I'm assuming that the events detailed in The Shadow Stone novel took place though, so that is the correct information for Aelies, he has a few levels of Shadow Mage as a result of the corruption of his magic after his contact with the shadow stone all those years ago. However, as none of the prestige classes have been released yet, I guess the point it moot as no one can use something that does not exist.

[irdeggman]

Caliedhe Dosiere (LG male Anuirean, Ftr 7/Wiz 13/Scion 2 [Anduiras, great, 64])

I'd make him Scion 2/Mag7/Noble 13 or something along those lines. IMO the only reason he had fighter levels was so he could gain RP from Law holdings - mostly likely this won't be a prerequisite anymore since it looks like RP gaining will be skill based instead and a noble will end up with the appropriate skills to work on this.

Magician vice wizard because he had no sources in 2nd ed (hence no realm spells), in 3.5 magician won't be limited to non-blooded only, he was listed as a diviner in 2nd ed (forbidden for wizards per the BRRB rules by the way, but it makes sense for him to be focused on divination spells (the expertise of magicians regardless of how the class ends up).

[ShiroAmada]

Hi. For those who don't know me, I am the DM of the recently completed Anuire in Flames. I prefer to keep the power creep down to a minimum, keeping as close to the original RoE as possible. Now on to the main event:

Carilon Alam (NE male Anuirean, Nbl 2/Scion 1 [Basaïa, major, 46])

I have him as N5/Sc1. 3rd level seems a tad low considering the terrible position he's in geographically.

Hand of Azrai (LN female Vos, Clr 10 (Azrai)/DisA 7)*

Perhaps she should be evil...say LE or NE

Eluvie Cariele (CG female Anuirean, Rgr 2 [Masela, minor, 23])

Should be N2 or N3 since the Coeranys court is well known as a centre of courtly learning.

Caliedhe Dosiere (LG male Anuirean, Mag 7/Nbl 13/Scion 2 [Anduiras, great, 64])

I think I like CD more as a Wizard than a Magician. Perhaps he should be Sc2/W10/N10?

Laela Flaertes (NG female half-elf, Brd 4 [Brenna, minor, 35])

I think N4 would be better.

Entier Gladanil (NE male Anuirean, Nbl 5 [Anduiras, minor, 20])

I'm thinking he should be Rg2/N2

Ghorien Hiriele (CE male Anuirean, Rog 9 [Anduiras, minor, 20])

Why so high? He needs only be 6th level to take the Master feats. Perhaps Rg 7 might be more in order.

Guilder Kalien (NE male half-elf, Rog 8/Scion 1 [Brenna, major, 30])

Ditto. Perhaps Rg5/Sc1.

[Athos69]

Good to see you here Shiro... I know we've had many (private) discussions on this topic in the past, but I have a general set of guidelines I would apply to the 2E class/level combos to convert them to BRCS 3.5

If the family is dynastic, and the Regent is likely to have been raised as a Noble, we can replace about 1/2 or more of the levels of Fighter or Thief with Noble levels. The difficulty comes in determining which families are dynastic.
Alam, Avan, Boeruine, Careile, Diem, Dosiere, Flaertes, Mhoried, Mierelien, Moergan, and Tael are all examples of lines that would have produced Nobles in the current generation. I leave the Swordwraith line out because she is primarily a Ranger who came out of the Erebannien to take out the despot and ignore Roesone, since it is only a 3rd or 4th generation ruling family, and still would have primarily pure military training in the mould of Daen Roesone.

Comments?

[Osprey]

Carilon Alam (NE male Anuirean, Nbl 2/Scion 1 [Basaïa, major, 46])

I have him as N5/Sc1. 3rd level seems a tad low considering the terrible position he's in geographically.

I have no problem w/ upping his level, tho he does seem to have a history of not-so-brilliant schemes that are foiled - not something that speaks well of his competence.


Ghorien Hiriele (CE male Anuirean, Rog 9 [Anduiras, minor, 20])

Why so high? He needs only be 6th level to take the Master feats. Perhaps Rg 7 might be more in order.

Guilder Kalien (NE male half-elf, Rog 8/Scion 1 [Brenna, major, 30])

Ditto. Perhaps Rg5/Sc1.

The difference is that at 9th level, they could have 2 feats; Kalien would have Spymaster and Master Diplomat; Hiriele, Master Administrator and Master Merchant. Southern and Central Anuire have a distinct lack of competent guilders - every one is pathetically low level, which means PC guilders have a rather easy time of it compared to any other type of regent there. Given Hiriele's massive domain, I don't think this is justified by making him being low-mid level, especially with such a weak bloodline. Similarly, Kalien's history of success seems to justify a man who is very competent, skilled at keeping the big guys busy and everyone else dancing to his tune. That takes real skills in addition to a decent bloodline. The main idea is that by making these two high level, we set up a couple of strong villain regents amongst the guilds, better matching the array of other regent types in the region (Gavin Tael, Jaison Raenech, Hierl Diem, OIT, HA, MOC, Aelies, Sword Mage, Swamp Mage, Caine).

My general feeling is that NPCs' levels should match up with their background stories and domains to a certain extent. Which means the most successful and competent regents should have correspondingly higher levels of experience, much as PC's would in their positions. This is based on an assumption that successful domain actions will earn a regent XP as readily as adventuring.


Laela Flaertes (NG female half-elf, Brd 4 [Brenna, minor, 35])

I think N4 would be better.


I love that Laela is a bard - I've made it a major theme of my campaign. It makes her very skilled at what she does best: diplomacy. But it also makes her not the greatest of land and law regents, something reflected by the number of foreign law holdings in her realm. What Laela really needs is a few good lieutenenat with some admin and lead skills (granted, her finding a Lt. she can trust is very difficult...). If she was already good at these sklls, I doubt she'd be in her current position of only controlling about half of Tuornen's law.


Eluvie Cariele (CG female Anuirean, Rgr 2 [Masela, minor, 23])

Should be N2 or N3 since the Coeranys court is well known as a centre of courtly learning.


Really? Well, that's news to me - a tidbit from the PS book? From RoE all I learned of Coeranys was it's reputation for fine horses and its ranger Landrunners. I had assumed that Eluvie had trained in that tradition, as a kind of frontier-style regent. Seems odd that such an undeveloped realm would be renowned for courtly learning. Though given her bloodline and heritage, Noble levels could certainly be justified too.


Caliedhe Dosiere (LG male Anuirean, Mag 7/Nbl 13/Scion 2 [Anduiras, great, 64])

I think I like CD more as a Wizard than a Magician. Perhaps he should be Sc2/W10/N10?

Well, unless we're adapting the no specialist Diviners among wizards for the revised BRCS, I agree that Calidhe should be a specialist wizard rather than a magician. I really can't imagine a scion with a great bloodline choosing the Lesser Path of magicians rather than true wizardy. As for source holdings, well: there's the College of Sorcery standing as a rather formidable wall in that regard. However, Calidhe's standing as a wizard would likely earn him far more respect and cooperation from the College than as a magician. Also, I very much dislike the notion that every true mage needs to be a source regent -just because they can doesn't mean they think it best to do so (especially if it brings you into conflict with some very powerful rivals, like the masters of the Royal College).


Entier Gladanil (NE male Anuirean, Nbl 5 [Anduiras, minor, 20])

I'm thinking he should be Rg2/N2

That works too. :)

[Osprey]

Fhylie the Sword (CG female half-elf, Clr 6 (Cuiraécen) [Anduiras, minor, 18])

What if Fhylie were a Paladin of Cuiraecen rather than a Cleric, assuming she had a Cleric as a main Lt.? This would emphasize the militant focus of the order rather well, making her a Pal 6 (Cuiraecen). Just an idea.

[Osprey]

If the family is dynastic, and the Regent is likely to have been raised as a Noble, we can replace about 1/2 or more of the levels of Fighter or Thief with Noble levels. The difficulty comes in determining which families are dynastic.
Alam, Avan, Boeruine, Careile, Diem, Dosiere, Flaertes, Mhoried, Mierelien, Moergan, and Tael are all examples of lines that would have produced Nobles in the current generation. I leave the Swordwraith line out because she is primarily a Ranger who came out of the Erebannien to take out the despot and ignore Roesone, since it is only a 3rd or 4th generation ruling family, and still would have primarily pure military training in the mould of Daen Roesone.


I think this is good general reasoning, however I would use it as set of guidelines rather than a hard rule: these would be the families most likely to produce Noble-class characters, but then again noble dynasties are nothing if not quirky, eccentric, and filled with exceptions. Look at Harold Khorien and Laela Flaertes as examples - one a wizard who inherited a powerful realm, yet he all he wants to do is pursue his arcane studies; the other a half-elven lover of art and song who reluctantly became duchess...given her bardic class and elven blood, I suspect Laela was raised among her mother's people more than her father's court, or at the least wished she was and ignored her noble education to some extent.

To your list I would add Taeghas, Daouta, and the next generation of Roesone's line (Marlae's children). Also, I'd add that in addition to these known blooded dynasties, there should be a fair mass of hereditary Nobles who aren't regents from which regents can recruit able Lts. and Advisors. ;)

[Angelbialaska]

My guess would be that we would see the Mierelen family (Brosengae) as Nobles. The details in the book is that it's a long line of rulers and guilders, with an excessive need for the best court in all of Anuire, with the Mierelen setting the style for the nobility. Seems fitting for them to be Nobles, wouldn't it? Living in the court most of the time doesn't exactly teach you how to backstab people, it learns you how to competently rule a realm.

[Angelbialaska]

Caliedhe Dosiere (LG male Anuirean, Mag 7/Nbl 13/Scion 2 [Anduiras, great, 64])

Any particular reason to change him a lot? I agree that his fighter levels should become Noble levels, but there's nothing wrong with him bring a wizard. So he would be Noble 13/Diviner 16/Scion 2. That would make him the strongest non-Awnsheglien in Anuire, which makes sense considering that he's all the way back from Deismaar.

[A_dark]

Is there some unknown to me, reason that HMA has been so much demoted? Also, in general, am I the only one who does not feel comfortable with the amount of multiclassing? Also, some people make suggestions for actual changes and not just 3rd edition updates (eg making Fhhylie a paladin). Do you think this is necessary and is this the scope of the project? I was under the impression that we were just to convert and not to change stuff. To my knowledge there IS such a paladin leading a temple and that's the leader of the Shield of Halaia in Khinasi. If the designer intended to have another paladin leading a temple, why wouldn't they have done so? And in any case, in 2nd ed the paladin and the priest of Cuiarecen were very very similar IMHO.

[irdeggman]

Originally posted by Angelbialaska@Nov 9 2004, 05:28 AM

Caliedhe Dosiere (LG male Anuirean, Mag 7/Nbl 13/Scion 2 [Anduiras, great, 64])

Any particular reason to change him a lot? I agree that his fighter levels should become Noble levels, but there's nothing wrong with him bring a wizard. So he would be Noble 13/Diviner 16/Scion 2. That would make him the strongest non-Awnsheglien in Anuire, which makes sense considering that he's all the way back from Deismaar.
It is only "rumored" that this is the same Dosiere who was with Michael Roele. This has been a topic of much discussion on the boards throughout the years. IMO it is best to follow the 2nd ed "total levels" as close as possible (scion levels being added for balance non withstanding. This would leave it up to the DM whether or not they want him to be near eternal. Basically players shouldn't know this information.

IMO making a him a magician vice a wizard fits his history and place in the setting much better. Especially using Osprey's redoing of the magician class.

The chamberlain's function seems to be more of a diviner and seer rather than a true wizard. Remember the context that this was used in. In 2nd ed he could not be a diviner - it was a forbidden specialty in BR.

Again the only source he could have access to is is the RCS, which is a shared source by the rulers of the RCS. Basically a 0-level source tied via ley lines to the others' sources and supposedly used for instructional purposes. So in order to use this source the chamberlain would have to have permission, etc. of the source holders.

Naa he is more subtle than that, fitting the role of chamberlain. A role that the magician class fits pretty well - stealthy, not too flashy and high on spells that fall into the Illusion/divination and bard-type role best.

[Achab]

Some of the regents from RoE have bloodline abilities of greater level than their bloodline strenght entitles them to according to the latest sanctioned Chapter 2 of d20 BRCS. On the other hand they have less blood abilities than they can get according to the same source. And others have some minor abilities although having too low bloodline score to have any.
How are you going to treat this ? Will you just drop the abilities , or will you adjust them to a lower level ? Or will you replace them with several lower level abilities ? This is even more important with the awnshegliens, where it is far most common, probably because most of them are described in detail in BE:AoC.

Here are some examples of what I am talking about :
Aeric Boeruine (LN male Anuirean, Ftr 10/Nbl 2/Scion 1 [An, major, 60]) has Resistance (great)
Grim Graybeard (LG male dwarf, Ftr 5/Clr 6 (Moradin)/Scion 1 [Anduiras, major, 38]) has Courage (great)
Guilder Kalien (NE male half-elf, Rog 8/Scion 1 [Brenna, major, 30]) has Shadow-form (great)

[The Jew]

This is my assumption, not based upon any actual knowledge.

Bouriene's and Greybeards bloodlines are probably a mistake. I'm pretty sure they are both Great's. If any regents actually have their bloodline strength reduced or need to gain/lose powers because of new formulas for distributing them, then their abilities will be reduced appropriately or they will gain the neccesary number of new ones to meet BRCS rules.

[First Horseman]

Raesene Andu,Aug 29 2004, 04:25 PM] Torele Anviras (LE male Anuirean, Wiz 10/Scion 1 [Anduiras, major, 35])

I don't know why Torele Anviras is LE in the d20 Atlas write up. His original backgroud write up from, the PS: Talinie, it stated that:
Torele is loyal to Talinie, but sfter his long stay in the Elven Court he feels alienated from both elves and humans. He rude, bad-tempered, and melanch. He gives the regent no more respect than he does his wretched, distorted servants...

I would have peg him for Lawful Neutral for the service he's given the kingdom. Okay yes, he did create a new magical process, which allows him to draw mebhaighl (magical energy), from cultivated province (as if there was no one living in the province), through the uses of the person's own energy, (essentially aging them very quickly or killing them). But that was for the Thane to decide to use at his or her disposal.

I'm not sure if that process was put down in writing, however, a Lawful Neutral (leaning towards evil perhaps to represent the spell he created) or Chatic Neutral to represent the outcome of his long years learning magic with the elves in Tuarhievel.

[Justinius_ExMortis]

Can we make the Gorgon more Fighter than Wizard? More like Figter 34/Wizard 7/Scion 2? From what I understand (and my knowledge is of limited sources so please be kind) The Gorgon has never really applied Domain level magics when invading and has rarely used magic of any kind. Other than gear and equipment. What I understand of him he's a brawler and warrior primarily. Always looking to go toe to toe with an opponent and wanting to feel the blood on his face and watch the flash of the swords blade. Historically everyone speaks of his martial ability and competence on the field. Nobody mentions fire flying from his fingers and rays of energy laying waste to his opponents. Since he rampages every century or so It's not likely he developed 17 levels of Wizards in a few decades time. that's protracted training and experience. Difficult for an epic character. Now a lower level in Wizard is easily explained versus time and oppurtunity and also makes sense as a recent development for him as he slowly realizes that rampaging hasn't really gotten him anywhere towards any difinable goal other than one. The increase to his bloodline. Why would someone basically conquer several realms and take the bloodlines of there leaders only to go back home and leave it all behind? Is he insane? Or is he simply building his bloodline, attempting to achieve true godhood? Thus he could be feeling that as he nears his goal he needs to have a better understanding of the magic of the land and how to use it towards his own ends as well as be prepared for his godly powers if and when they arrive. Now, whether a true bloodline can actually get so high that he becomes a god is up to an individual GM but makes for an interesting reason to the change in levels and I think a better representation of the Gorgons thought process in persuing his level advancement. Obviously this is just a thought but thanks for giving me an oppurtunity to put it out there.

Justinius ExMortis


"plans fail, people die, and civilizations fall, the only constant is the entropy behind it all. Have a pleasant evening."

[irdeggman]

Originally posted by Justinius_ExMortis@Dec 8 2004, 04:16 PM
Can we make the Gorgon more Fighter than Wizard? More like Figter 34/Wizard 7/Scion 2? From what I understand (and my knowledge is of limited sources so please be kind)
I understand your logic here. I believe (and support) trying to capture as close as possible what the 2nd ed material had listed for major NPCs. What Ian listed is pretty darn close to what was in the original rules.

Scion levels of course have been added due to the "new" mechanics.

[Hrandal]

Is Daeric Mhoried really high enough level? I know its terribly inflationary to just suggest upping someone's levels, but on reading Ruins, I came away thinking that he was pretty much the best human strategist alive from the description.

Someone who has defeated the armies of the Gorgon - even if it was probably just one of his generals - should be bit higher level IMO.

Also, it seems like Ghoere has him terribly outgunned in terms of levels - again not really the impression I got from the background.

I would suggest raising the Mhor a couple of levels, just to keep him in the running with the other big players in Anuire.

Also, I've noticed that a lot of the "notable" wizards are all clustered at the same level (Torele Anviras 10, Caine 10, 2nd Swamp Mage 10, Sword Mage 10, Swamp Mage 11). This seems a little disproportionate to me, so I'd suggest that their levels be varied a little. Perhaps some prestige class for the Sword Mage?

Also, the background seems to hit an uncharecteristically stumbling block with its landed female rulers - they often seem a little repetitive compared to male regents.

For instance;
Marlae Roesone/Fhiele Dhoesone. Same alignment, same title, near-identical sounding countries, similar levels.

Laela Flaertes/Eriene Mierelen - Same race (half elven), same title

I realise they do have great differences, but it seems to me like less care and attention was put into the female regents. I know it would mess with the setting a little, but I'd strongly suggest at least changing the titles of some of these women.l

[Bokey]

I might be addressing something that goes beyond the scope of this particular thread, but I feel I should bring it up just to ease my mind. :unsure:

I want to say that the playtest altered the bloodscores in some manner; I can't remember if it doubled them or halved them, and I don't have a copy readily available here at the moment to reference.

I assume the Atlas will reflect these changes made in the playtest, but it doesn't appear to me that the bloodscore #'s presented here do. Is that an error or emission, or am I just flat out wrong (which is quite possible)?

Thanks

[Angelbialaska]

The sanctioned change of chapter 2 details bloodlines. You have twice your bloodline score in bloodline strength.

Daeric Mhoried is level 7. I'm not sure exactly why he would be a higher level. He's not the one doing the fighting himself, although he can defend himself.

There are many level 10-11 wizards. I believe keeping it at that is a good thing. Otherwise one of them can start dominating over the others.

I wouldn't change any of the published regents particularly, except perhaps change their classes to fit. I can't see what's the problem with having some regents that are a bit similar in names. Just look at the nobility of Europe. Most of those also use some of the same names and with the intermarriage and such, the slight changes in names can simply be cultural?

The Gorgon may not use realm magic, but he's still holding some massive sources. And in his description of fighting, it's described how he uses Anti-Magic field, so that he may wander through battlefields slaugthering around him, without having to worry about pesky wizards.

[The Jew]

and

[The Jew]

But their is a school of thought that characters should be awarded with xp for being rulers and generals. It is a challenge they are overcoming, and if their armies lose then they will likely die.

At least in the Domain level of play a few levels will not give a major advantage. If 1 was dropped to 9th level and one raise to 12th, it would not create an obvious power imbalance.

[Hrandal]

I'm not complaining that they are similar per se - I'm saying that its a shame that the tiny number of female characters compared to male characters haven't had MORE time rather than less spent on them.

Another example;

There are only two proper theocracies in Anuire - both held by women.

It just seems like when they came to female characters they just decided to cut and paste, and then add details to make them different later.

As for the Mhor's levels, I disagree, I would expect someone who has fought off the Gorgon's armies (presumably fighting from the front, given that self-reliance is such a theme of Mhoried) to be tougher than level 7. Also, he is quite old, so I would expect that he has more levels through life experience.

The level 10-11 wizards thing just feels wrong because it seemed like some sort of artificial barrier was saying "this powerful, but no more". Its made a bit of an unrealistic bottleneck, to my mind. The fact is that there are people out there with more wizard levels, and lots with less as well - but the numbers don't seem to follow any logical grouping.

I'll freely admit these are factors that bug me just because they jar the game reality a bit for me, not because they are mechanically unworkable (although I do think currently Gavin Tael would eat Daeric Mhoried alive in the domain level stuff.)

[The Jew]

Originally posted by Bokey@Dec 9 2004, 11:38 AM
I might be addressing something that goes beyond the scope of this particular thread, but I feel I should bring it up just to ease my mind. :unsure:

I want to say that the playtest altered the bloodscores in some manner; I can't remember if it doubled them or halved them, and I don't have a copy readily available here at the moment to reference.

I assume the Atlas will reflect these changes made in the playtest, but it doesn't appear to me that the bloodscore #'s presented here do. Is that an error or emission, or am I just flat out wrong (which is quite possible)?

Thanks
You are right the playtest did halve the bloodscores. But the outcry from the rigid old players unable to handle any sort of modernisation :P has reinstated the original rules.

[Osprey]

I'm not complaining that they are similar per se - I'm saying that its a shame that the tiny number of female characters compared to male characters haven't had MORE time rather than less spent on them.

Another example;

There are only two proper theocracies in Anuire - both held by women.

It just seems like when they came to female characters they just decided to cut and paste, and then add details to make them different later.


Agreed. This is a recurring problem in many (most?) fantasy settings, be they books, RPG's, or whatever. I think females get shafted for 2 reasons in BR:
1. Male authors of all genres have always had difficulties in portraying believable three-dimensional female characters. I confess to having a similar problem in my own storytelling and DMing, though running my BR campaign for the last 2 years has pushed me mightily to develop an extensive caste of strong female regents and NPC's to complement my all-male PC group. In fact, the figurehead lead character is now a female: Elana Alwer, now Baroness of Roesone (long story) and a powerful fighter/noble warrior and regent.

2. There's a genuine difficulty in trying to use historical medieval society as a default basis for the setting while at the same time catering to a politically-correct game setting in which women are considered equals in every way that matters. While this is conveniently democratic (and a fantastic slice of idealism inserted into most D&D settings) and nice for encouraging female players (which I do like to have, they're just damned hard to find)...it just doesn't jive with history. Again and again in my own gaming in medieval worlds, I keep running into places where the fantasy setting has inherent conflicts between fantasy and history. This is definitely true for Birthright - it's more historically grounded in terms of cultures than any other D&D settings I know of.

On the other hand, I'm having a lot of fun with the idea that patriarchy is still the traditionalist, conservative tendencies in most of Cerilia (esp. more physical cultures like the Vos and Rjurik), but that women have been gradually challenging these assumptions. Which makes the roles and actions of female regents even more exciting in a running BR campaign, as they are the most visible role models for women throughout the setting.

Another character I've taken and developed heavily is Lasisca Diem (Hierl's daughter and heiress). As a Rogue/Wizard, and later an arcane trickster, she went from riches to rags to riches again through some sharp diplomacy and social manipulation (Diemed was conquered by their rivals to the east; Hierl was killed, Lasisca imprisoned; she bargained her way out of lifelong captivity and into a position as new guilder of Diemed; later she married one a PC guilder, and now has regained 2 provinces of Diemed as well, Aerele and Bliene. She's also one of the strongest guilders in Anuire by 560 onwards).

Sorry for the rambling asides, but it does let me share some ideas and storylines for female characters that might help lend variety to the original list of Cerilian regents - for the enterprising DM's.

Osprey

[Angelbialaska]

Personally I believe that there's a good number of female regents and none of them are puny in any way. I think the setting describes the change in Anuirean society very well. The major realms are conservative and has men in charge, some of the newer or smaller realms are led by women.

Marlae Roesone: She's quite a toughie, at least in all campaigns I've seen.
Liliene Swordwraith: She forged her own realm, isn't that proof enough of her competence?
Suris Enlien: She led a rebellion against the state of Diemed, forging Medoere.
Thuriene Donalls: She's leading Talinie, holding back forces of goblins and slowly but surely taking over religion within Boeruine.
Eriene Mierelen: She's leading the Brosen Royal Guild and is the one known for having the best court in Anuire.
Laela Flaertes: Appears to be very little of a ruler compared to others, holding only portions of power of her own realm.
Fhiele Dhoesone: She leads a quite rich realm, has manipulated others into paying stuff for her and she's having some strong ties to Tuarhievel.
The Chimaera: Hmm. One can argue if she's a monster or a woman. But definitely possessing a lot of strength.
Eluvie Cariele: A decent ruler, quite independent. Still inexperienced.
Queen Isalie: The second strongest non-Awnsheglien Wizard in Anuire, she packs quite a bunch of power.
Elamien Elamier: She seems competent without being too competent.
Swamp Mage v2: Also packs quite a bunch of power, countering that of SM v1.

Non-landed women: Maire Cwellmie, Sarae Somellin, Lady Alliene, Lasica Diem, Medhlorie Haensen, Antia Maricoere, Larra Nielems, Hand of Azrai, Mheallie Bireon, The Wizard, Nadia Vasily and Kalilah Bint-Daouta.

This isn't all the women in Anuire, but it's those I could find right now. It shows Anuire as dominated by men, but with women holding quite some power too. And many women hold power, some of them rather archetypal women, while others have their own personality.

[Hrandal]

Woah, there! I never said they were less powerful, I said they were repetitive and generally didn't show as much concept work as the male characters. I'm sure they have just as many levels.

[geeman]

Let`s see if this makes it to the proper thread.



>There are so many problems with putting things into multiple schools -

>which is something Gary has been advocating since, well forever.And most

>of these have been listed before:It totally screws up specialization

>restrictions. If a spell is in multiple schools it is still restricted if

>any one of them is on the specialist`s opposition school list.It totally

>messes up spell focus and other related feats. Suddenly a character can

>slip in a spell not on the school list by having it appear in multiple

>schools.It totally messes up some prestige classes due their concepts

>(able to cast X level spells from the evocation (or conjuration) school, etc.)



These objections were raised before and are pretty easily addressed with

much less text than it takes to describe all the benefits of including a

few new schools of magic. First of all, in developing a few lists of

spells for some additional schools of magic it should also be noted that

I`ve yet to see the problem come up. Part of the nature of a school is

that spells with diametrically opposed themes don`t tend to show up on the

list. At least, I didn`t find any in the proposed list for the nature

school when the subject was discussed a while back. Not one. If someone

were to, say, come up with a list of spells for a "Fire" school of magic,

for instance, it`s pretty unlikely he`d run into a conflict with spells

that are in an opposed "Cold" school being slipped in from other schools of

magic.



That said, if one were to totally open up the concept to any and all

conceivable themes for a school of magic it would still not be the problem

that has been suggested. The issue is easily addressed with a

clarification of how what the priority is in spellcasting. That is, if a

spell is on a list of opposed school spells it. It`s simply not an issue

that is at all serious, and its certainly not something that should

preclude the concept.



As for messing up spell focus and related feats... how so? Because one

could then specialize in a nature school of magic, or because that would

somehow interfere with the existing schools?



As for messing up prestige classes with their ability to cast certain

spells from particular schools of magic, how is that in any way changed by

the idea of adding a school (or three) of magic?



>There are absolutely no examples of spells being in multiple schools in

>any WotC product to date, including the CA. Gary at one point brought up

>Ghostwalk and ghost spells, but as the text in the book stated it isn`t a

>school.



OK, just to clarify what was and what wasn`t actually said and by who (and

because it brings up a relevant issue) I`m not the one who brought up

Ghostwalk. It was brought up by Mark Aural who wrote "if you want an

example of a new "school" in 3e, I`ve just found one - it`s

"Ectomancy," from Ghostwalk (just got ahold of a copy of it today)."



After which I wrote:



"Mark has pointed out one D20 document that includes a new school of magic

and, while I don`t have access to gobs of D20 stuff, here`s one

more. Mongoose Publishing`s _Encyclopedia Arcane: Star Magic_ describes

the spells and capacity of mages who gain their spells from the stars (kind

of like having a spellbook in the sky) as a school of magic. The spell

list includes spells from what are other schools of magic in 3e. Though

the system doesn`t grant specialists the same powers granted to

"traditional" 3e specialists, there are several benefits for

specialization. I`d argue that one or two of the other "encyclopedias"

from Mongoose handle groups of spells and create spellcasting classes that

are very similar to schools of magic. The Demonology, Battle Magic and

Chaos Magic Encyclopedias handle spells in a very similar manner. Those

are the only ones I`ve seen, I`m afraid, so there could be more."



That said, validation is nice, so I don`t mind comparing to other D20

products if someone asks, but it`s not particularly important as a support

or refutation for a concept like this in Birthright. All that matters is

whether the game mechanics express the campaign theme. No other setting

that I know of has a dynamic like that expressed by BR elves, so if one has

to do something that isn`t standard in order to reflect that dynamic game

mechanically I`m fine with that all by itself.



The Ghostwalk campaign (which is a good read, BTW) appears to have only

been brought up as a sort of red herring--or, at least, it quickly turned

into one. At that time I hadn`t checked out Ghostwalk, so my only other

comments on it were that I couldn`t really comment because my information

was second hand--and it turns out that was a good thing because the

description wasn`t very accurate.



>The description makes it more like a new list or domain list if you want

>to simplify the issue. This is similar to what happened with the

>elf/haf-elf nature spell affinity in the latest vrsion of Chap 1.IMO the

>basic reason that Gary has such a hard time with the schools as written is

>that he has a hard time understanding what the base connection is between

>spells that are in the same school.



Well, I don`t know what to tell you other than unless there`s something

more extensive you`re referring to here I don`t think this is the

problem. In fact, I think it`s another expression of your contention that

there is something to this system that isn`t supported by any actual

materials. To be blunt, there is no there there. Schools of magic have a

thematic function in that they are organized into a general classification

system and that system is then used game mechanically. Those themes,

however, are in and of themselves arbitrary. Many of the spells can go

into other categories and could be redefined in one way or another without

harming the system at all.



In fact, what the whole argument really appears to be is a very zealous

fanwank to justify the 3e magic system--which is honestly the weakest

aspect of D&D and always has been. Sorry if that`s too blunt for anyone`s

sensibilities here, but that`s what it boils down to. Reading

extraordinary care, construction and fragility into that system just

doesn`t add up, nor is it in any way supported by my own experience. I`ve

done almost all the things I`ve described here. It`s happened. The system

didn`t collapse and it works just fine all the while doing a better job at

expressing the kinds of themes that are definitive of the setting material.



>I understand his logic and problems here, but I can accept something like

>this just to make the game mechanics work easier and pretty much because

>it was always that way in pretty much all versions of D&D so I`m used to it.



Well, it`s the way they classified spells in 3e, but that was the first

time they were so organized. In fact, in 2e spells could be listed in two

or more schools, and the use of schools of magic was very much like that

which has been suggested.



Anyway, as for it having always worked that way in all versions of D&D the

schools of magic only existed as they do now in 3e+. In previous editions

several spells belonged to more than one school of magic.



Gary

[Hrandal]

Osprey said;


"Another character I've taken and developed heavily is Lasisca Diem (Hierl's daughter and heiress). As a Rogue/Wizard, and later an arcane trickster, she went from riches to rags to riches again through some sharp diplomacy and social manipulation (Diemed was conquered by their rivals to the east; Hierl was killed, Lasisca imprisoned; she bargained her way out of lifelong captivity and into a position as new guilder of Diemed; later she married one a PC guilder, and now has regained 2 provinces of Diemed as well, Aerele and Bliene. She's also one of the strongest guilders in Anuire by 560 onwards)."

I agree, although the main book says very little about Lasica, I've always thought of her as a great character concept - how does a daughter follow one of the most able and archetypal male regents in Anuire? I think the answer most folks reach is that she has to be even more able in order to prove herself.

In the first tabletop BR game I ran, Lasica tricked one of the PCs into "dishonouring" her so that she could avoid marrying Guilder Kalien. Of course, Heirl Diem was outraged, and a swift shotgun wedding ensued. She was one of my favourite NPCs to play - smart, waspish and constantly pushing her PC husband to expand his realm.

Also, the relationship between Heirl Diem and his new son in law was wonderful to behold - the baron was constantly fighting down the urge to strangle the Khorien lad on sight for seducing his daughter and ruining his diplomacy.

[irdeggman]

Hmmm in my tabletop one of the PCs ended up marrying Lassica. The PC was one of a triad of PCs that "inherited" Kalien's domain when he died from an "accident".

The wedding was intended to form a union between Endier and Diemed (evidently a common theme).

When the PC was assassinated by his long time "friend" (read Blood Hungry for adventure concept) the now pregnant Lassica ended up in the center of everything as there became a great issue over who was to be teh regent of Endier. ONe of the other PC's produced a "legal document" that the deceased PC gave him declaring him his heir. But it was written prior to him siring an heir.

[Angelbialaska]

I'm playing Diemed in a PBeM (Embers of Empire). And of course I've got Lasica detailed out. The fact that she's half the age of her father and almost at his level should show that she's definitely competent. In that game she's surpassing her father in intelligence and in strength of personality, but she's still a rough diamond that lacks some of the finesse that is so important in a court (since she's not noble). So she's very direct and often talks before thinking about the wiseness of stating her opinion. That is leading to a lot of fun stuff since she just can't keep her mouth shut but has to discuss with everybody. :P

[The incredible, edible Phil]

Going back to the idea of varying the wizard regents levels, I would instead suggest instead to make some of the Sword Mage's levels into Figter levels so he can have accesss to the proficiencies to wear armour and wield swords. If only to further differentiate him from the "pack".

[Angelbialaska]

If Swordie is going to use armor and swords, then maybe he should have the Spellsword prestige class? Then he can also cast spells while in armor with less spell failure.

[The incredible, edible Phil]

That depends if the BRCS team feels inclined to reference books outside the core books (Complete Warrior is not a core book).

Other changes I would suggest: Marlae Roesone should have a few more levels as Player Secrets of Roesone make mention of several NPCs that one would lead to believe are lts (Traese Noelon, Tiesera of Shieldhaven) that are too high level to be her lieutenants. Furthermore, several other NPCs in the realm are higher as well.

Roesone is a very militant realm and while noble levels might not necessarily apply, the challenges that face Roesone and the small amount of skill points of the Fighter class definetly puts that regent at a certain disadvantage.

Due to the realm's military and frontier like flavour, I would suggest making her Fighter 6/Ranger 1/Scion 1 so the above mentionned characters can be taken as lieutenants.

[Nephyte]

Antia Maricoere (LG male Anuirean, Pal 6 [Anduiras, minor, 12])


Should in my opinion be: NG Female Anuirean, Cle 6 (Haelyn) [Brenna, minor, 18])


Cause A) She's female. B) In Gorgon's alliance she's both a cleric, and of the Brenna bloodline, with 18 strength.

[Osprey]

If Swordie is going to use armor and swords, then maybe he should have the Spellsword prestige class? Then he can also cast spells while in armor with less spell failure.


That depends if the BRCS team feels inclined to reference books outside the core books (Complete Warrior is not a core book).

But you could make him an Eldritch Knight using only the core rules (DMG).

How about this: Wizard 5 / Fighter 2 / Eldritch Knight 3 / Scion 1 (Vorynn)

This makes him a 12th level character, and a 7th level wizard spellcaster casting 4th level spells. He gets a decent base attack (+7/2) and a nice suite of feats to round out his magic and fighting abilities. I'd assume he has decent Strength and Dexterity, allowing for some 2-weapon action (longsword and shortsword I figure).

As a human, he'll get 10 feats total (incl. Scribe Scroll, one magical feat, and 3 fighter bonus feats).
Possible feat list: Scribe Scroll, Craft Magic Arms and Armor, Combat Casting, Improved Initiative, Combat Expertise, Two-Weapon Fighting, Two-Weapon Defense, Still Spell, Craft Wondrous Items, and Weapon Focus: Longsword.

Now, if we were using the class supplements, I'd swap out Silent Spell and Weapon Focus for Improved Two-Weapon Defense (Complete Warrior) and Practiced Spellcaster (Complete Arcane). This would boost his defensive AC and raise his spell potency significantly (+4 to his caster level). Of course, I'm hoping he might have a Dex of 17 to qualify for Imp. 2WD...

Osprey

[Raesene Andu]

If you use the stats from the BoM, then the Sword Mage does indeed have a Dex of 17.

His ability scores are Str 11, Dex 17, Con 16, Int 17, Wis 13, Cha 15 according to that book... rather good IMO.

[Osprey]

Hmmm...low Strength, high Dex and Con...

OK, perhaps then arm him with a pair of shortswords, change Weapon Focus to short sword, and exchange Still Spell for Weapon Finesse...this will add +3 to his attack rolls with light weapons.


OR...I had an idea. No one ever sees the Sword Mage's face, right? What if he's hideously ugly, maybe even deformed? Might explain why a Vos wizard fled all the way to Anuire. Also explains why he wears a mask, and NO ONE has ever seen his true face!
If this were the case, I'd swap his Str and Cha...at 11 Cha he's still average, which means decent social skills mostly practiced while in disguise (he has the Alter Appearance blood ability after all, plus spells if he needs to do it more often than once a day).

Also, given 3e's more flexible system of ability scores and adding to them (the SM would get 2 ability raises), I would add 1 point of Int, ending up with this spread: Str 15, Dex 17, Con 16, Int 18, Wis 13, Cha 11

[+1 Int at 4th level, +1 Dex at 8th level]

Then keep the original feat list, since Str and Dex are now only 1 different.

[Athos69]

Originally posted by Nephyte@Jan 6 2005, 05:08 PM
Antia Maricoere (LG male Anuirean, Pal 6 [Anduiras, minor, 12])

Should in my opinion be: NG Female Anuirean, Cle 6 (Haelyn) [Brenna, minor, 18])

Cause A) She's female. B) In Gorgon's alliance she's both a cleric, and of the Brenna bloodline, with 18 strength.
I see no problems with Anita Maricoere being a Paladin -- after all, Haelyn's Aegis was originally the military arm of the Imperial Temple of Haelyn, and as such, the 'temple' should follow a military structure, since it still considers itself the frst line of defense of anuire from the awnshegh.

[Nephyte]

I see no problems with Anita Maricoere being a Paladin -- after all, Haelyn's Aegis was originally the military arm of the Imperial Temple of Haelyn, and as such, the 'temple' should follow a military structure, since it still considers itself the frst line of defense of anuire from the awnshegh.

Well, I am sure in Birthright 3.5E there is probably mention that Paladin's must be religious associated, however the basic rules make no such distinction that a Paladin must be part of a church.

Further, the Gorgon's Alliance, which is the closest thing to a canon source we have on Antia Maricoere has her listed as a Cleric. Further, D&D games commonly have Gods of War, none of which generally have Paladin's while being organized along military lines. To be a Cleric doesn't mean you aren't militaristically inclined.


Just to add: Looking through the playtest rules, and the older 2e Rules, I can't find anywhere that says Paladin's can cast realm spells. It would be kinda pointless to have a Temple leader who can't make use of one his greatest abilities. I could be wrong about this, or it's something that could be added in Playtesting.

The thread asked for opinions, just giving mine.

[A_dark]

there is a temple in khinasi led by a paladin... as far as I can tell and as far as my campaigns go, indeed paladins cannot cast realm spells. It is a serious drawback to be a paladin temple holder, but it is not insane. However... given WIT being a priest and a powerful regent, for the sake of balance, HA should also be priest imho. (HA being part of the orthodoxy, since doctrinally they are supposed to listen to whatever oit says)

[Raesene Andu]

The Regent of Ariya is a paladin, and controls a large temple network. According to the PS of Ariya, one of his lieutenants is the high priest of the temple and so that lieutenant would be able to cast realm spells.

I'm not sure why you would consider HA to be followers of the OIT's doctrine. The HA has always been a seperate military order dedicated to Haelyn, and was not part of the old Imperial Temple of Haelyn, which was the main faith during imperial times.

Also, the Gorgan's Alliance computer game cannot be considered to be cannon, but the Book of Priestcraft where I get my information from is.

[Nephyte]

I would guess cause in the Book of Priestcraft it says that HA acknowledges OIT as the head of the Haelyn Church.

[Nephyte]

Further, the Gorgon's Alliance, which is the closest thing to a canon source we have on Antia Maricoere has her listed as a Cleric. Further, D&D games commonly have Gods of War, none of which generally have Paladin's while being organized along military lines. To be a Cleric doesn't mean you aren't militaristically inclined.


Never claimed it was Canon. Just that it was the closest thing to Canon we have regarding Antia. As far as I can tell she's not mentioned in any other work, not even the Book of Priestcraft except on the table that lists all the Haelyn holdings.

[Osprey]

Looking through the playtest rules, and the older 2e Rules, I can't find anywhere that says Paladin's can cast realm spells. It would be kinda pointless to have a Temple leader who can't make use of one his greatest abilities. I could be wrong about this, or it's something that could be added in Playtesting.


It was never so clear to me that Paladin regents could not cast realm spells, either. The BRCS sorta' implied that it was possible, less certain about 2e. Like many things in BR, I think this may have been a bit ambiguous.

I wouldn't mind if they did, considering that their progression and caster level are still far weaker than a cleric's. Having a paladin regent bless his armies or heal his units seems pretty appropriate to me.

[Raesene Andu]

There is no reason why Antia Maricoere could not be a priest, however I put him as a paladin because as the leader of a military order is seemed more appropriate.

As for paladins and realm spells, they should be able to cast them IMO, albeit at a much reduced level mimicking their normal spell list. This would mean that they only gained access to a few realm spells.

[Osprey]

As for paladins and realm spells, they should be able to cast them IMO, albeit at a much reduced level mimicking their normal spell list. This would mean that they only gained access to a few realm spells.

Which they would cast at half the potency (caster level) of a cleric. It will never be their specialty, but it does make them better temple regents than any other non-clerics (if they were even allowed in one's BR campaign).

[Raesene Andu]

It would also help to explain why so many paladins are temple regents.

[Thomas_Percy]

My Caliedhe Dosiere (sorry, but without an items):

Caliedhe Dosiere, Human, Ftr2/Wiz8/ElK10; AL LG; CR 20;
HD 8d4+10d6+2d10; hp 112;
Init +4; Spd 30 ft/x4;
AC 10;
Atk +16/+11/+6/+1 (1d8, 19-20/x2, Longsword);
SV Fort +12, Ref +5, Will +12;
Str 10(+0), Dex 10(+0), Con 10(+0), Int 26(+8), Wis 17(+3), Cha 20(+5);
Skills & Feats: Concentration +23, Craft (siegecraft) +31, Diplomacy +20, Heal +4, Knowledge (arcana) +31, Knowledge (history) +9, Knowledge (nobility & royalty) +16, Knowledge (religion) +9, Knowledge (the planes) +9, Listen +14, Ride +1, Sense Motive +26, Spellcraft +33, Spot +14, Swim +1.
Combat Expertise, Eschew Materials, Improved Initiative, Leadership, Spell Penetration, Greater Spell Penetration, Extend Spell, Quicken Spell, Silent Spell, Still Spell, Persistent Spell
Spells: 4/7/7/7/7/6/6/5/4/2

Possible items: Amulet of Natural Armor+5, Amulet of Proof against Detection and Location, Bag of Holding Type I, Boots of Teleportation, Bracelet of Friends, Bracers of Armor+8, Brooch of Shielding, Circlet of Persuasion, Cloak of Charisma+6, Cloak of Resistance+5, Crystal ball with telepathy, Decanter of Endless Water, Drums of Panic, Eyes of the Eagle, Gem of Seeing, Headband of Intellect+6, Horseshoes of Speed, Instant Fortress, Ioun Stone (Absorbs spells of 8th level or lower), Lyre of Building, Mattock of the Titans, Mantle of Faith, Mantle of Spell Resistance, Necklace of Adaptation, Orb of Storms, Periapt of Wisdom+6, Rope of Climbing, Scarab of Protection, Scarab, Golembane, Silversheen, Stone of Good Luck, rod of Metal and Mineral Detection, rod of Flame Extinguishing, rod of Absorption, rod of Alertness, rod of Security, ring of Evasion, ring of Freedom of Movement, Ring of Protection+3, ring of, Spell Storing, ring of Three Wishes, Sth. of Arrow Deflection+3, Sth. of Moderate Fortification & Luck+1, Longsword of Defending+4, gem of Refuge [1,500 gp], diamond worth 1,000gp, potions & oils: Protection from evil, Invisibility, Fly, Gaseous form, Neutralize poison, Cure serious wounds
Clone, of course.
Throneguard sword can be artifact.

My Guilder Kalien (sorry, but without an items, too):

Guilder Kalien, Half-elf, Rog5/Asn10; AL NE; CR 15;
HD 15d6+30; hp 120;
Init +9; Spd 30 ft/x4;
AC 20 (+4 armor, +6 dex);
Atk +15/+10 (1d6+1, 18-20/x2, Rapier);
SV Fort +6, Ref +16, Will +4;
Str 12(+1), Dex 21(+5), Con 14(+2), Int 16(+3), Wis 11(+0), Cha 18(+4);
Skills & Feats: Appraise +16, Bluff +22, Diplomacy +11, Disguise +12, Forgery +11, Heal +1, Hide +23, Listen +16, Move Silently +23, Open Lock +6, Ride +6, Sense Motive +8, Sleight of Hand +15, Spot +16, Swim +2, Use Magic Device +21.
Dodge, Improved Initiative, Leadership, Quick Draw, Weapon Finesse, Disguise Spell

[Angelbialaska]

I thought Kalien was level 5, not level 15? I'd not really encourage that we officially increase Kalien to become a character that could walk into Avan's home and stab him down, walking out again without being detected.

[Raesene Andu]

I can only agree. Guilder Kalien is dangerous enough at 5th level, no need to go giving him more power. I think it might be best if we kept somewhat close to the original levels and classes, unless a very good reason can be provided why a regent should be a different class or level. Increasing someone's level by 10 should be a definite no-no, as should be giving them what looks like half the magical items in the DM's guide.

[Thomas_Percy]

You're right.
My Kalien's stats are a result of over 50 years of our playing Anuire (1524-1575), with a lot o successes of half-elf Kalien, a ruler of 25% Anuire at 1575.

But back to the original setting: Guilder Kalien is a self-made man. Rogue with no past, who managed to be a ruler of Endier (not like others aristocrats' firstborns). It's an almost heroic deed (from dark side of heroic). Such a quest is a long campaign with a lot of levels for PCs.


Kalien to become a character that could walk into Avan's home and stab him down, walking out again without being detected.
In that vision of an Anuire, where every 15-th level rogue can walk Avan castle, Gorgon should personally kill every regent. Why don't he do it?


(cut) a definite no-no, as should be giving them what looks like half the magical items in the DM's guide.
If someone has enough money, time & friends to buy/gain super-equipement, why "no-no"?
Items, I've listed are useful for rulers, not for adventurers.

[Athos69]

About the only increase in level of the established characters would be to add levels of Scion appropriate to their Bloodline strength -- 1 level for those with a Major Bloodline and 2 for those with a Great Bloodline.

[irdeggman]

Originally posted by Thomas_Percy@Jan 11 2005, 06:56 PM


(cut) a definite no-no, as should be giving them what looks like half the magical items in the DM's guide.
If someone has enough money, time & friends to buy/gain super-equipement, why "no-no"?
Items, I've listed are useful for rulers, not for adventurers.
Because BR is a low-magic item setting? That is a setting where a +2 sword is extraordinary and very rare and a +5 sword is all but unheard of.

[Raesene Andu]

If someone has enough money, time & friends to buy/gain super-equipement, why "no-no"? Items, I've listed are useful for rulers, not for adventurers.

The original Chamberlain had 3 magical items mentioned, two of which were unique items. You have given him 50+ powerful items just culled from the DMG with no history or background to them. Every permanent magical item in BR should be unique. There are no long swords +1, each individual weapon would have a history.


About the only increase in level of the established characters would be to add levels of Scion appropriate to their Bloodline strength -- 1 level for those with a Major Bloodline and 2 for those with a Great Bloodline.

This is what I did with the original list. However, some minor changes can be made if it is needed, but no increasing someones level by 10. The changes I'm thinking of are mainly to class anyway, not level.

[Thomas_Percy]

BR is a low-magic item setting? That is a setting where a +2 sword is extraordinary and very rare and a +5 sword is all but unheard of.

Every permanent magical item in BR should be unique. There are no long swords +1, each individual weapon would have a history.
I'm glad to hear that.
I like the magic items descripted as in the "Baldur's Gate 1", where every unique item has a story.

A questions:
How to deal with masses of DR monsters (and, especially with Savage-Species-like PCs)in the world, where sword +2 is extraordinary?
How to deal with item creating feats of the spellcasters (especially PCs), who can make several +1 (etc.) items and they DO it in a low-magic world.
What to do (as DM) with DMG Tables full of no-name magic stuff and with original adventures full of magical treasures?

Why I'm asking? Because, it's not beliveable world, when only PCs have many many magic items, and NPCs not. Such NPCs are weak, especially at 10+ levels, because D&D characters are very magic/item-dependent.

[Raesene Andu]

Originally posted by Thomas_Percy@Jan 12 2005, 08:59 PM





How to deal with masses of DR monsters (and, especially with Savage-Species-like PCs)in the world, where sword +2 is extraordinary?

Change them, either reduce there DR or change their immunities to something that the PCs have a chance of finding. No creature stats are set in stone.


How to deal with item creating feats of the spellcasters (especially PCs), who can make several +1 (etc.) items and they DO it in a low-magic world.

Give your PCs something to do. If they are sitting around making magical items, then obviously they have too much time on their hands. Interesting in my campaign one of my players has taken a couple of item creation feats and then hasn't used them yet.

Or, you could make the creation of items harder. Easiest way to do this is to make the components necessary for items a lot harder to get hold of. The DMG assumes that the world has a normal level of wizards and magic when setting the costs and time taken. In a low magic world though, the PC wizard can't go down to his local magic store to find components, because there simply isn't one. Instead he has to go out and find them himself (queue adventure music).

Want to make a longsword +1? Well, maybe you need a dwarven made weapon to enchant it. That might mean a quest to one of the dwarven realms to buy the sword from them and they might require a boon or service in return. A nasty DM could make the creation of even a minor magical item very difficult with a little creative thinking.


What to do (as DM) with DMG Tables full of no-name magic stuff and with original adventures full of magical treasures?

Don't use them, make items up instead. Things like potions, scrolls, and wands aren't a major problem because they are fairly temporary items and can be used up.


Why I'm asking? Because, it's not beliveable world, when only PCs have many many magic items, and NPCs not. Such NPCs are weak, especially at 10+ levels, because D&D characters are very magic/item-dependent.

I wouldn't give the PCs that many magical items to start with. Just looking through two of my player's character sheets. The Barbarian 9/Fighter 2 has 2 magical weapons (best being +2), a magical ring, a cursed magical ring he is hanging on to, and a few potions. The 12th level dwarven cleric has a shield+1, heavy mace+1, bracers of armour, and potions.

In BR magical items are rare, so PCs shouldn't have that many of them either.

[irdeggman]

How to deal with masses of DR monsters (and, especially with Savage-Species-like PCs)in the world, where sword +2 is extraordinary?


Any creature can be damaged now (in 3.5) there are no immunities. DR just makes it harder to hit them. PCs have blood abilities (generally) and large amount of resources at their disposal (re: Lts, body guards, troops, etc.) these things can easily make up for the other factors. Setting appropriate CRs will still (and always be in any game) require some DM tweaking and adjustment.


How to deal with item creating feats of the spellcasters (especially PCs), who can make several +1 (etc.) items and they DO it in a low-magic world.
What to do (as DM) with DMG Tables full of no-name magic stuff and with original adventures full of magical treasures?


Check out CH 8 and the suggestions for how to enforce a low-magic item game. Mostly it involves increasing the market price for items which inflicts a greater exp expenditure for creating them. This concept was published in the Complete Warrior also. It is the easiest method of handling it game mechanics wise. Published adventures will, as almost always is the case, need to be tweaked accordingly. I find it hard to beleive that someone will pick up a published 3.5 adventure and run it "as is" in Birthright. Some allowance for scions and awnshegh and the like will need to be made.



Why I'm asking? Because, it's not beliveable world, when only PCs have many many magic items, and NPCs not. Such NPCs are weak, especially at 10+ levels, because D&D characters are very magic/item-dependent.

See above about how to limit item creation. Regents will have more items than the non-regents around. It is not too far a stretch to imagine that almost all (if not all) PCs will be scions and as such are born to be better and set apart from the "commoners" around them. Such are the benefits of power and influence, which is one of the fundamental principals of Birthright.

[The incredible, edible Phil]

Birthright is a low magic setting, however I would suggest making it that most tiems that do exist are "powerful" and have a history behind them. Regents have access to centuries of inheritance and not to mention their own adventures and personal wealth. I personally think they should be slightly above the curve for a low magic world because of that. This was reflected in the original setting where regents could start with a random magical item at level 1. Furthermore, many of the Player Secrets books included other items of power at the disposal of the regents:

Medoere: Holy Avenger
Ilien: Staff of power/access to the Aglondier library
Roesone: Arms of Roesone (and the dagger+2 in the secret treasury)
Etc.


Most NPCs described do indeed have few magical items but they do tend to be on a higher scale. Kalien had bracers AC 2( or bracers of Armor +8 for 3e) and a rapier +4 for example. My suggestion would be to make each realm have their own historical items that help define the identity of each realm by adding to its history.

One item I have considered for the Dukes (or Barons) of Diemed was this:

"Judgment": Once the blade of the first Prince of the Deretha, Judgment has remained a symbol for House Diem ever since the times of the first Roele. It rests in the court of Aerele on a mahogany stand just above the throne of Diemed as if to stand judgment over the rulers. It is only ever removed from its lofty position in times of war. In such eventualities, the Duke summons the general of his armies and the Archprelate of the Orthodox Imperial Temple to perform the ceremony of Arms, where the blade is granted to the general to wage war for the Duke.

The blade had long served House Diem well until the fateful day Uchaene Diem attacked Daen Roesone in Caercas. The mercenary captain met the opposing general on the battlefield and defeated him handily, capturing the blade in exchange for Uchaene's life. Out of respect to the ducal line (or preference to his own blade Glory's Fall), the Black Baron never carried the blade to battle but kept it in his own court. The blade was returned only after House Diem recognized House Roesone's claim to the lands of Roesone. Ever since, the blade is whispered to be cursed by the Black Hart and brings ruin to the wielder.

The whispers grew louder when the forces of Diemed were poised to crush the rebellion of Medoere. After Ruornil's divine intervention at Moonstrike Keep, only the blade remained untouched. Medoere later returned the blade as a gesture of goodwill, but the humiliation of the loss haunts the current Duke.


Axiomatic longsword +3, curse: Any army the character carrying Judgment leads into battle suffers a -2 penalty to Morale due to the misfortunes that have plagued House Diem since the fall of the Empire inspire little confidence in its warriors. This curse may be dispelled if a scion of House Diem manages to reverse its fortunes and restore House Diem's former power and prestige. If such a feat does occur, the blade's curse is lifted and instead provides a +2 morale bonus to all units in the army of a character possessing the blade.

[Osprey]

Neat item, I like the balance of power and history, and the condition of the "curse" (which seems to be more of a social/military stigma than any magic of the blade itself ;) ).

[The incredible, edible Phil]

Definetly, although I think I should add a comment that the Dukes try to ignore the rumours and silly superstitions and do not balk away from tradition and will continue the practice of wielding it in battle, even if it grants the penalties stated.

[Angelbialaska]

I too like items that fit the ruler and is of much more power than any ordinary character would usually have. But the items that are possessed should all have a name and a history, even if they in other worlds would usually be seen just as a standard magic item.

Also I think that most such items would be usable socially too. For instance the Judgement sword is great.

Also older families and greater families should have rather huge magic treasuries. Just think about what the newer realms possess, such as the 8 year old Medoere and the 70 year old Roesone and the Aglondiers have never been one of the great families either.

[Osprey]

Diemed’s warrior duke, Heirl Diem (MA; Ftr7; Scion of Brenna, major, 42, LN) is a direct descendant of the founder of Diemed.

Besides the Scion level needed here, there was a tentative plan to change Heirl Diem's levels to Noble instead of Fighter, given that his RoE character description mentions his plotting, scheming, intrigue-ridden nature, and says nothing about his accomplishments as a warrior so much as a canny strategist. This suggests his social and political skills should be strong. Also, he does come from a long, LONG line of hereditary nobility, which suggests a heavily political and decorous education and upbringing. Making him a Noble 7/ Scion 1 would still leave him as a competent warrior, AND allow him to be an excellent politician.

Here's a brief writeup I made for his potential character attributes (many of his ability scores reflect the middle age adjustment, and the last ability raise for 8th level, which I put into INT, would have happened after age 35):

Heirl Diem, Duke of Diemed
Brenna, Major (42)
Lawful Neutral male Anuirean, age 44
Noble 7/ Scion of Brenna 1

HP: 51 (+ regent bonus HP)

Str 15, Dex 11, Con 13, Int 18, Wis 12, Cha 16

Feats: Mounted Combat, Ride-By Attack, Spirited Charge, Leadership (17), Great Leader, Military Genius.

Special Abilities: Favored Regions (Southern Coast +4, Heartlands +2), Resources x2, Born to Lead (+1), Inspiring Leader (3/day), major scion benefits (regent bonus HP, +2 Leadership, minor and major blood abilities, +4 bloodline score)

Blood Abilities (Brenna): Bloodmark (mi), Detect Lie (mi), Divine Aura (ma), Home Hearkening (ma), and Unreadable Thoughts (ma).

Skills: +15 Administrate (R11), +21 Bluff (R11), +23 Diplomacy (R11), +11 Gather Information (R5), +15 Intimidate (R7), +9 Knowledge (history) (R5), +10 Knowledge (nobility) (R6), +6 Knowledge (religion) (R2), +21 Lead (R11), +6 Listen (R5), +10 Ride (R10), +10 Sense Motive (R9), +6 Spot (R5), +17 Warcraft (R11).

Domain Action Bonuses: Administrate +3, Diplomacy +4, Gather Information +2, Lead +6

Note: skill bonuses include all synergies and bonuses from blood abilities (+3 CHA-based skills from Bloodmark and Divine Aura, +4 Bluff vs. Sense Motive from Unreadable Thoughts).

Also, this all from scratch: I'm not using any existing writeups (such as from a Players' Secrets books, if an official one ever existed).

Osprey

[The incredible, edible Phil]

I'd remove Military genius feat and reduce the number of ranks he has in warcraft.myself due to the many military setbacks the Diems have suffered. Spymaster or a diplomacy feat would be more à propos. As for skills, 5 ranks of Handle Animal to grant a synergy bonus to ride would also do well (not to mention I would think he enjoys hawking and has hounds like many nobles).

[Osprey]

I'd remove Military genius feat myself due to the many military setbacks the Diems have suffered. Spymaster or a diplomacy feat would be more à propos.

Except RoE makes explicit that Heirl Diem is a cunning strategist. Also, Heirl Diem's defeat against the Ruornites of Medoere happened in 543 MR, only 2 years into Heirl's reign and 8 years before the current time. He is also credited with major military reforms within the duchey in the history of Diemed, and may have sharpened his skills in preparation for a military conquest.

I intentionally kept his Gather Info and personal spying abilities minimal - he has no less than FOUR lieutenants to run his spy rings! Which says to me he keeps his own fingers mostly out of the spy rings, preferring to delegate rather than take the risk of going undercover in enemy territory.

Lasisca, on the other hand, would most definitely pick up the Spymaster feat once she qualified (I have her as a Nbl1/Sc1/Wiz4). As might Heirl's better lieutenants.

Don't be misled by the feat names, taking Military Genius doesn't mean that Heirl Diem is an unbeatable general in the field. It just gives him a little extra edge.

[Angelbialaska]

Heirl didn't lose in Medoere because he was a bad strategist. He lost because Ruornil wiped out his army. Against that I don't think any strategist, even the Gorgon, could win.

[The incredible, edible Phil]

His warcraft abilities does make him a tad too strong compared to what Medoere and Roesone could muster for generals. I personally believe the Roesone family should have that slight edge rather than the Diems.

[Raesene Andu]

Originally posted by The incredible, edible Phil@Jan 21 2005, 06:25 AM
His warcraft abilities does make him a tad too strong compared to what Medoere and Roesone could muster for generals. I personally believe the Roesone family should have that slight edge rather than the Diems.
Roesone may have had the edge back when it was founded, but there is no reason why Hierl Diem cannt be a much more skilled general. As for Medoere, well the reason Diemed hasn't attacked is that they may be fearing what will happen if Ruonril gets involved again.

[Athos69]

I would give Heirl 3 levels of Fighter and 4 levels of Noble to adequately describe the mix of military ability and statecraft.

[Osprey]

I would give Heirl 3 levels of Fighter and 4 levels of Noble to adequately describe the mix of military ability and statecraft.

That's a rather weak mix, don't you think? He gets one extra [combat] feat and +1 BAB, maybe a few extra HP...and loses 12 ranks of skills and his 2nd favored region (which is also why he has +4 on the Southern Coast). He would be greatly weakened as a ruler by this, IMO.

In general, my philosophy is to build NPC's on a similar level to PC's. Meaning, "If I were this guy, how would I construct my own advance?" By doing this, one helps to ensure that major NPC's are challenging and vital characters in the campaign, not half-baked walkovers. An 8th level NPC should be as challenging an opponent (or as strong an ally) as an 8th level PC in terms of stats and power. What makes the PC's stand out isn't their stats or brilliant min-maxing, but the choices they make, the ideas they concoct, their ability to look at the big picture and plan accordingly. That's the true stuff of Birthright heroes.

[Raesene Andu]

Good philosophy :)

[The Jew]

If I was min/maxing Hierl I would give him 2 fighter levels and 5 noble levels. Same base attack, -8 skill points, 2 bonus feats and the loss of negligible noble powers. The new fighter bonus feat list inclue military genius, great leader and skill focus warcraft and lead.

[Angelbialaska]

Make that Noble/Fighter if you want to multiclass him, otherwise he lose 12 skill points because first level is as the much less skilled fighter.

[Thomas_Percy]

Originally posted by Osprey@Jan 21 2005, 07:00 AM
In general, my philosophy is to build NPC's on a similar level to PC's. Meaning, "If I were this guy, how would I construct my own advance?" By doing this, one helps to ensure that major NPC's are challenging and vital characters in the campaign, not half-baked walkovers. An 8th level NPC should be as challenging an opponent (or as strong an ally) as an 8th level PC in terms of stats and power. What makes the PC's stand out isn't their stats or brilliant min-maxing, but the choices they make, the ideas they concoct, their ability to look at the big picture and plan accordingly. That's the true stuff of Birthright heroes.
A problem remains the same: magic items.
If I give PCs many items and don't give NPCs, NPCs will be weak.
If I don't give items to PCs and NPCs they will be helpless in combat with DR monsters. One awnshegh with DR (or worse savage-species-like PC with DR) defeat all domain.
If I reduce monster's DR, they will not be legendary, untouchabke by peasants, "immortal" beasts - they can be killed by a mob.

[Angelbialaska]

As I see Birthright, then it's more the world that encourage few items, but strong items. You can't go to a magic shop and buy cure potions or find any scroll you want. You can't find a smith and get a +1 sword.

I'd not give magic items to many your party encounters. I'd give it to the end bosses (well, you know the type), but those bosses would then also hold some pretty powerful items.

So during your career your party may perhaps find 20 items, 3 for each of you, but what you find will also be something that is pretty wild and with a history behind it. The big boss will of course also have 1 to 3 magic items, even on level 20, so your party will not get stuffed with items (not like the party I'm part of in D&D, where we have our magic dump, where all the magic loot that we can't use is thrown into.)

Afterall most rulers in Anuire will have few but very special and powerful items. It's only very few like the Gorgon and Caine that has too many to quantify.

[Angelbialaska]

Originally posted by Thomas_Percy+Jan 21 2005, 12:04 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Thomas_Percy @ Jan 21 2005, 12:04 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Osprey@Jan 21 2005, 07:00 AM
In general, my philosophy is to build NPC&#39;s on a similar level to PC&#39;s. Meaning, "If I were this guy, how would I construct my own advance?" By doing this, one helps to ensure that major NPC&#39;s are challenging and vital characters in the campaign, not half-baked walkovers. An 8th level NPC should be as challenging an opponent (or as strong an ally) as an 8th level PC in terms of stats and power. What makes the PC&#39;s stand out isn&#39;t their stats or brilliant min-maxing, but the choices they make, the ideas they concoct, their ability to look at the big picture and plan accordingly. That&#39;s the true stuff of Birthright heroes.
A problem remains the same: magic items.
If I give PCs many items and don&#39;t give NPCs, NPCs will be weak.
If I don&#39;t give items to PCs and NPCs they will be helpless in combat with DR monsters. One awnshegh with DR (or worse savage-species-like PC with DR) defeat all domain.
If I reduce monster&#39;s DR, they will not be legendary, untouchabke by peasants, "immortal" beasts - they can be killed by a mob. [/b][/quote]
I don&#39;t know what level you&#39;re on, but I know that the party I&#39;m in has a Cleric and that Cleric has come to love a spell like Greater Magic Weapon. It&#39;s a level 4 Cleric spell (Level 3 for Wiz types), lasts 1/hour per caster level and makes your weapon magical, so it can overcome magic damage reduction. Keep an Align Weapon (Cle2) and there&#39;s few creatures that you can&#39;t defeat. Remember that you can achieve much of the same through spells like you can with magic items.

[Athos69]

Originally posted by Osprey@Jan 20 2005, 11:00 PM

I would give Heirl 3 levels of Fighter and 4 levels of Noble to adequately describe the mix of military ability and statecraft.

That&#39;s a rather weak mix, don&#39;t you think? He gets one extra [combat] feat and +1 BAB, maybe a few extra HP...and loses 12 ranks of skills and his 2nd favored region (which is also why he has +4 on the Southern Coast). He would be greatly weakened as a ruler by this, IMO.

In general, my philosophy is to build NPC&#39;s on a similar level to PC&#39;s. Meaning, "If I were this guy, how would I construct my own advance?" By doing this, one helps to ensure that major NPC&#39;s are challenging and vital characters in the campaign, not half-baked walkovers. An 8th level NPC should be as challenging an opponent (or as strong an ally) as an 8th level PC in terms of stats and power. What makes the PC&#39;s stand out isn&#39;t their stats or brilliant min-maxing, but the choices they make, the ideas they concoct, their ability to look at the big picture and plan accordingly. That&#39;s the true stuff of Birthright heroes.
Yes, it certainly could be, but I see the progression as being Nob 1, Scion 1, Ftr 1, Nob 2, Ftr 2, Nob 3, Ftr 3 <takes power as Duke>, Nob 4.

If the character is supposed to be both a capable military commander *and* a canny politician, it justifies the capabilities of the character, and purposely does NOT min-max, a concept I tend to shy away from even in PCs that I run. This leaves open the possiblities that he could take Ftr 4 (and get a bonus feat) or Nob 5 at the next level of progression, depending on what skillset is used most during the intervening time. It gives DMs some flexibility when running their own campaigns.

[The Jew]

Originally posted by Angelbialaska@Jan 21 2005, 04:29 AM
Make that Noble/Fighter if you want to multiclass him, otherwise he lose 12 skill points because first level is as the much less skilled fighter.
Thanks, that is what I meant :D

[Osprey]

A problem remains the same: magic items.
If I give PCs many items and don&#39;t give NPCs, NPCs will be weak.
If I don&#39;t give items to PCs and NPCs they will be helpless in combat with DR monsters. One awnshegh with DR (or worse savage-species-like PC with DR) defeat all domain.
If I reduce monster&#39;s DR, they will not be legendary, untouchabke by peasants, "immortal" beasts - they can be killed by a mob.

I sympathise. In truth, I don&#39;t run a low-magic BR campaign for precisely this reason - it&#39;s difficult to make it compatible with the whole 3.x D&D system of challenges.

Also, D&D character level progression is, IMO, paced so that while your PC is not gaining levels, at least they are getting some interesting new toys. Simple but effective as a game design.


On the flip side: I&#39;ve run some other low-magic fantasy campaigns that I&#39;ve really loved. However, to make a truly low magic setting you have to take out not just most of the magic items, but most of the spellcasters, too, especially those with blatant and dramatic effects.

A really good low-magic campaign makes anything magical either subtle and mostly un-noticed, or an outright unbelievable occurence (like a vision,trip, or dream), which the human mind rationalizes in all sorts of fun ways.

Birthright got it half right: they made wizards rare (except among elves). They should have made spellcasting clerics equally rare. As part of the world&#39;s historical and current settings, this would make blatant magic fairly unusual if not rare. The priest with faith healing really IS a wondrous discovery, much like stumbling on a wizard in the wilderness. Magicians and bards, village wise-women, mystic hermits - these would be the more typical magic-users - magics that are subtle, invisible, tricks. A little herbalism and alchemy can explain (and disguise) an awful lot. There aren&#39;t many of these spells (even bard/magician/adept) beyond 0 and 1st level in D&D, unfortunately.

If great magic is rare, then magic items become rare by default. I&#39;d let potions be the only "typical" magic items a mystic might make and sell, and then very rarely(perhaps once in a wizard&#39;s lifetime) some special item of power is created through an arduous series of mystic or arcane rituals of crafting, empowering, consecrating.

Another dose of realism to lower a setting&#39;s magic: even magical items don&#39;t stay intact forever, be it the fault of the corrosion, decay, abuse, or the mebhaighal simply being reabsorbed into the earth over the years.

D&D as a system isn&#39;t just mechanically ill-suited to a low-magic setting, the whole psychology of the game is geared toward high fantasy. Spells are usually miraculous (and visibly dramatic) in effect; monsters are common, diverse, and almost all of them far outstrip humans in natural ability; to compete with these monsters, humans must use lots and lots of magic, both spells and enchanted items.

In a truly low-magic world, monster CR&#39;s would need to be raised significantly - the higher the CR of a monster, the more magic items and spells are assumed to be had by the PC&#39;s. High monster AC&#39;s and DR (many of which are DR xx/Magic) mean most fighters need enchanted weapons to hit, high SR means dedicated casters must be in the party to have a chance of hitting it with magic, and incredible offensive and magical powers mean the PC&#39;s must have magically-high AC&#39;s and saving throws to not get pulverized.

The consequence of a low magic setting is that those who DO have strong spellcasting or potent magic items become dramatically better at whatever their magic affects, &#39;cause no one else has that sort of power except monsters. That&#39;s fine if your game tends toward monster-fighting and dungeon crawling, but in a human-dominant BR setting such characters will very quickly out-compete most of their own race.

I&#39;d rather keep it challenging, whatever level of magic exists. If your PC&#39;s have magic items, their human opponents need a few items, too, to be competitive. If your party has mages and clerics, there need to be some counters to these, which usually means enemy mages or clerics. Either that, or the enemy must always be higher level.

[Osprey]

Yes, it certainly could be, but I see the progression as being Nob 1, Scion 1, Ftr 1, Nob 2, Ftr 2, Nob 3, Ftr 3 <takes power as Duke>, Nob 4.

If the character is supposed to be both a capable military commander *and* a canny politician, it justifies the capabilities of the character, and purposely does NOT min-max, a concept I tend to shy away from even in PCs that I run. This leaves open the possiblities that he could take Ftr 4 (and get a bonus feat) or Nob 5 at the next level of progression, depending on what skillset is used most during the intervening time. It gives DMs some flexibility when running their own campaigns.

I hear what you&#39;re saying. It&#39;s a recurring design dilemma: do you build NPC&#39;s to challenge the min-maxers? Then they become exceedingly difficult for the non power-gamers. Build NPC&#39;s on a roleplaying basis, the min-maxer PC&#39;s kick their butts.

I tend to prefer the former, you the latter. I&#39;d rather an NPC be challenging to anyone, because in my experience as a DM there are always some power gamers in the group of PC&#39;s. D&D encourages this mentality (see previous post re. monsters and CR&#39;s).

Now, as far as Heirl Diem is concerned, I think the Nbl5/Ftr2/Sc1 suggested by the Jew would be a reasonable compromise. You&#39;ve posited that Heirl Diem has only gained one character level in his 8 or so years as duke. I think it more likely that since becoming duke he has gained most of his upper character levels, and that these would be noble levels gained through dealing with regent-type issues.

So it would have been Nbl 1, Sc 1, Ftr1, Nbl 2, Ftr 2 <becomes duke> Nbl 3-5. So 6th, 7th, and 8th levels gained over the last 8 years.

This would also help to justify developed (high-rank) rulership skills.

Osprey

[The incredible, edible Phil]

I personally think it&#39;s best to write the NPC&#39;s (or PC&#39;s) history first and then depending on how the writing goes, make stats from there.

Back to Heirl Diem however, is there any instance where he actually leads an army into battle? I can imagine he is an excellent strategist BUT green when it comes to tactics. Of the other npcs in Diemed, none seem to be in a position to have taught the duke or aided him in becoming what he is today. Note that warrior duke could also mean he&#39;s got a good weapon arm :).

On the other hand, let&#39;s take the example of Roesone: The regent has access to help from several war-hardened fighters of higher level that could have served as mentors or instructors, somewhat more military experience (skirmishes with Ghoere, the frontier like nature of Roesone) and a more precarious position militarily where the regent must devote prioritize warcraft over other matters of statecraft.

Another example would be Gavin Tael: A strong military tradition coupled with the fact he has participated in many battles and wars.


All things considering, I think Heirl is missing Master Administrator as a feat. It does say he managed to clean up his court and the corruption of his administration during the first few years of his reign. If the theme that you are going for with Diemed is that they rise from the ashes, then giving them a strong power base (what his enemies other than Ghoere and Avanil don&#39;t have) would serve more than just making him an ubber general.

[Osprey]

Back to Heirl Diem however, is there any instance where he actually leads an army into battle? I can imagine he is an excellent strategist BUT green when it comes to tactics. Of the other npcs in Diemed, none seem to be in a position to have taught the duke or aided him in becoming what he is today. Note that warrior duke could also mean he&#39;s got a good weapon arm

A lot of strategy skills for nobility can come from study and simulations, but it&#39;s true: there&#39;s no replacement for good hard experience. I expect Heirl&#39;s had some experience, both before and after becoming a regent, fighting the occasional border skirmish, dealing with raids from the Spiderfell, and the occasional uprising by disgruntled peasants or lords. So long as these things happen only on a small scale, they probably aren&#39;t worth mentioning but can be assumed as part of his real experience. I mean, he had to get to 8th level somehow, right, and as a warrior that means he MUST have had a good deal of combat experience. In D&D, all the training in the world won&#39;t get you to 8th level, and it would be bad RPG character design to say he got some levels as a fighter and a bunch of combat feats mainly through regent actions.

Perhaps no living NPC&#39;s are good teachers, but who were Heirl Diem&#39;s teachers? Was it limited only to kin, or did he recieve tutelage elsewhere (like from mentors in the Imperial City)? This is something simply not mentioned in the published material, which gives us some room to play. But his published description does say he&#39;s a cunning strategist, so we really have to give a nod to that at least. However, if the general consensus is he&#39;s not a real warmaster, then perhaps it&#39;s OK to ditch the Military Genius feat. However, I&#39;d say keep his Warcraft skill pretty high.


All things considering, I think Heirl is missing Master Administrator as a feat. It does say he managed to clean up his court and the corruption of his administration during the first few years of his reign. If the theme that you are going for with Diemed is that they rise from the ashes, then giving them a strong power base (what his enemies other than Ghoere and Avanil don&#39;t have) would serve more than just making him an ubber general.

I actually had Master Administrator as one of his original feats, then decided to drop it for one main reason: the province levels in Diemed are none too impressive, which suggests that in his 8 years as Duke Heirl has ruled them very little if at all. As a genius Master Administrator, why wouldn&#39;t he have done so already? The only justification is that he recently picked up this feat at 8th level as his [5th level] Noble bonus feat. Which would put him in a position to begin expanding Diemed internally, and start making his maintenance more affordable.

Osprey

[Thomas_Percy]

Originally posted by Osprey@Jan 22 2005, 06:48 PM
So long as these things happen only on a small scale, they probably aren&#39;t worth mentioning but can be assumed as part of his real experience.
How can we know it was a small scale? Maybe Diemed was occupied, Aerele sacked, maybe Spider tried to assassinate Heirl thousand times etc.?
When I&#39;m looking at "Ruins Of Anuire" - it looks like twelve duchies stayed within their borders with little changes 1,5 milenium - in a opposition&#33;&#33;&#33; to domain strategic system which allows to shift a borders like a snow in spring.

Perhaps no living NPC&#39;s are good teachers, but who were Heirl Diem&#39;s teachers? Was it limited only to kin, or did he recieve tutelage elsewhere (like from mentors in the Imperial City)?
In DMG we have generating towns guidelines. In a realm as large as Diemed, with 2 big cities, there are several 10+ level NPCs and hundreds of middle level.