BR Cancellation

[Galwylin]

At 10:15 PM 1/1/00 -0500, J. D. Lail wrote:
>Ready for a shock ? According to a TSR staffer Sean
>Reynolds in the BR folder on the TSR website it seems
>that as a product the Birthright Boxed Set Lost Money.
>Not a lot but since that item should be the best selling
>one in the line if it lost money then you can bet that
>the expansions were not much better if at all.

I guess its not surprising cause it seems every line was losing money
except the Realms. But why did they reprint the box set when the first
went OOP? At the first of the year was when I got into Birthright and the
set was out of print. I ended up finding a used copy from one of the
online stores that deal in OOP but news was that TSR had gone back to the
printer with it. After not being able to find or order a brand new copy
when I got mine, it was available everywhere and then they cancelled it.
They do things strange if you ask me. I would have rather they held off
reprinting the box (which is supposed to be expensive itself) and keep
plans to do the hardcover.

This has been a Galwylin® Production

galwylin@airnet.net
http://www.airnet.net/galwylin/

[Galwylin]

At 10:54 AM 10/7/98 -0700, Gary V. Foss wrote:
>
>A. Market it as a part of the core rules with the domain turns part of the
>basic AD&D 3rd edition rules that are supposedly in development.

I would be willing to see the domain turns become part of the core (2nd or
3rd Edition) but I'd like Birthright itself to remain a distinct setting
that uses those. That way, everyone can be a regent no matter the setting
and Birthright retains its uniqueness.

>B. Lower the production values a bit. Oh, I know it's nice to have full
color
>backgrounds on all the pages of the Campaign expansions, but who really needs
>that? I certainly don't. I'm perfectly happy with black text on white paper
>with a few nice illustrations from time to time. Besides, you get more info
>that way.

I love that color backgrounds but I'm with you. Black on white works just
as well.

>C. Release things on the web. This is an area that I think these guys really
>should look into. With the rerelease of the core rules on CD-ROM, I really
>think the company formerly known as TSR should start thinking about releasing
>stuff over the web using charge cards and RTF formats. Gobs of people have
>credit cards and computers or can pilfer them from people who do. Especially
>we demented gamer types. Why not generate some revenue from that website,
>man? Amazon.com is HUGE, guys! Get a clue! One up them by allowing your
>customers to download the product directly onto their PCs and charge them for
>it.

Afraid I'm not willing to pay for something like this that isn't a physical
object I can take away from the computer and use. But they could do like
Amazon.com and sell books directly to customers without the middle men.
I'd use that service but not one where I just recieve a file. There would
be too much pirating anyway. Imagine if they had charged for the Muden
guide, probably more would have a copy than had paid for it.

This has been a Galwylin® Production

galwylin@airnet.net
http://www.airnet.net/galwylin/

[Galwylin]

At 07:45 PM 10/7/98 PDT, Sweet Home wrote:
>
>Funny you mention it went out of print... If Tsr was stupid enough to
>make a box set knowing that if all were sold they would loose money no
>wonder why WoTC bought them!!!

This was after the buyout so I dunno what's up with that.

>Also, if it went OOP then sales must not have been that bad. Well this
>is strange, the best campaign world and fantasy setting ending its life
>so early in its product life...

Some weird things to me are:
1) Birthright going out of print before the new edition comes out so they
reprint it
2) the Shadowstone novel is handed over to the Realms before the
publication of the 98 WotC catalog and the cancelling the Birthright line
3) Cancelling a product (the hardcover) that was supposed to decrease the
cost of producing a box and appeal to the adventuring public more.

It makes me wonder if sales were too low and costing them money or the
profit margin was too small where they weren't making much over the cost of
production.

This has been a Galwylin® Production

galwylin@airnet.net
http://www.airnet.net/galwylin/

[Galwylin]

At 04:17 AM 10/8/98 -0700, Brian Stoner wrote:
>
>Perhaps a
>seperate box, "Maps of Cerilia" or somesuch, could be sold separately and
>contain full size poster maps.

They should look into doing that for every setting. I heard countless
stories of people using their maps so throughly that they need new ones.
They just don't want to buy the whole box set again to get them. This
would give TSR a product that appeals to new and old gamers alike.
Everyone likes maps and eventually everyone needs new ones.

This has been a Galwylin® Production

galwylin@airnet.net
http://www.airnet.net/galwylin/

[BenandAmy]

- -----Original Message-----
From: J. D. Lail
To: birthright@MPGN.COM
Date: Wednesday, October 07, 1998 12:10 PM
Subject: [BIRTHRIGHT] - BR Cancellation


>Ready for a shock ? According to a TSR staffer Sean
>Reynolds in the BR folder on the TSR website it seems
>that as a product the Birthright Boxed Set Lost Money.
>Not a lot but since that item should be the best selling
>one in the line if it lost money then you can bet that
>the expansions were not much better if at all.
>
>In a later post he also stated that the Players Secrets
>were found to be competing with each other.Too many were
>being sold at one time.
>
>L8R


This, Is probably true, but in my experience, they didn't sell because
they weren't on the shelves---not because people didn't want them. I bought
everything I could find, and so did a few other people I know. It was
pathetic---we would scout the shops every other day waiting for this stuff
to come in so we could get them before anyone else could. It just wasn't
available. IS ANYONE LISTENING AT TSR??????
Maybe I'm the exception, I don't know.

[Gary V. Foss]

J. D. Lail wrote:

> Ready for a shock ? According to a TSR staffer Sean
> Reynolds in the BR folder on the TSR website it seems
> that as a product the Birthright Boxed Set Lost Money.
> Not a lot but since that item should be the best selling
> one in the line if it lost money then you can bet that
> the expansions were not much better if at all.
>
> In a later post he also stated that the Players Secrets
> were found to be competing with each other.Too many were
> being sold at one time.

Since this sparked my interest enough to look up the actual posts that J.D.
mentions I thought other folks might find them interesting too, so here they
are:

>Birthright was a very expensive product line to produce. It was barely
>making any money - barely enough to support itself; even the box set was
>unprofitable due to some bad decisions made in marketing it. TSR is
>analyzing ways that BR could be brought back in a profitable manner. There
>are many people here that love the setting and would like to see it in
>print again.

Now this message says quite a bit to me. First, it says they realize that the
problem with the BR sales were some bad decisions in marketing the setting. I
actually see this as good news. I mean, they aren't thinking that the setting
is crap, so they just want to drop it. A rerelease of the setting might be
doubtful, but not impossible. As several people have pointed out, the
marketing of the BR setting was really bad. It made BR look like a
strategy/board game with all the numbers on the province maps and the
description of the setting as a place where rulers struggled against one
another.

The other message:

>Actually, we heard a lot of good things from fans about the domain
>sourcebooks, but the problem was that TSR was releasing 4 of them at a
>time - they were competing with each other, and so sales weren't that
>good.

>And the first goal is to make the campaign setting (the stand-alone main
>product) profitable. If that isn't profitable, everything else isn't going
>to help much.

Again, I see this as active interest on the part of TSR/WotWC (or I guess it's
WotWC/TSR, isn't it?) about the setting. Oh, I know this could be unreasonable
optimism on my part, but I think there are several things they could do to make
the setting more profitable.

A. Market it as a part of the core rules with the domain turns part of the
basic AD&D 3rd edition rules that are supposedly in development.

B. Lower the production values a bit. Oh, I know it's nice to have full color
backgrounds on all the pages of the Campaign expansions, but who really needs
that? I certainly don't. I'm perfectly happy with black text on white paper
with a few nice illustrations from time to time. Besides, you get more info
that way.

C. Release things on the web. This is an area that I think these guys really
should look into. With the rerelease of the core rules on CD-ROM, I really
think the company formerly known as TSR should start thinking about releasing
stuff over the web using charge cards and RTF formats. Gobs of people have
credit cards and computers or can pilfer them from people who do. Especially
we demented gamer types. Why not generate some revenue from that website,
man? Amazon.com is HUGE, guys! Get a clue! One up them by allowing your
customers to download the product directly onto their PCs and charge them for
it.

Gary

[Trizt]

BenandAmy (xanadu@pdq.net) wrote:

- -> This, Is probably true, but in my experience, they didn't sell because
- -> they weren't on the shelves---not because people didn't want them.

I have to agree with Benand, atleast I didn't see more than 2 Birthright
settings Boxes over here in Gothenburg. One of the stores stopped to take in
BR stuff as they thought quite early that the BR wouldn't have a future.

//Trizt of Ward^RITE

--------------------
E-Mail: trizt@iname.com URL1: http://home.bip.net/trizt/
ICQ# : 13696780 URL2: http://www.ukko.dyn.ml.org/~trizt/
Nick : Trizt IRC: lib.hel.fi Channel:
#Opers
MUD: callandor.imaginary.com 5317
--------------------
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--------------------

[Spyderz]

> This, Is probably true, but in my experience, they didn't sell because
>they weren't on the shelves---not because people didn't want them. I bought
>everything I could find, and so did a few other people I know. It was
>pathetic---we would scout the shops every other day waiting for this stuff
>to come in so we could get them before anyone else could. It just wasn't
>available. IS ANYONE LISTENING AT TSR??????
>Maybe I'm the exception, I don't know.


Oh...I wouldn't describe you as an exception...I have that problem with
most gaming products around...that's why at least once a quarter...I head to
LA to do some shopping...and even there I usually have to hit several stores
to find what I'm looking for...and it isn't because of us lacking stores
here in Vegas....there are just too many products that don't reach the
shelves...
I don't believe, however that this is entirely TSRs fault...but rather
problems with various shops...because they don't get things...or get too few
of them because a fair number of them have to pre purchase however much they
order...and they don't want to get stuck with unsold merchandise. There are
a few however that are too stupid to be in business...one of the stores in
town here that won't order things for a customer even if he asks...too much
bother I guess...
CIAO

[Spyderz]

>C. Release things on the web. This is an area that I think these guys
really
>should look into. With the rerelease of the core rules on CD-ROM, I really
>think the company formerly known as TSR should start thinking about
releasing
>stuff over the web using charge cards and RTF formats. Gobs of people have
>credit cards and computers or can pilfer them from people who do.
Especially
>we demented gamer types. Why not generate some revenue from that website,
>man? Amazon.com is HUGE, guys! Get a clue! One up them by allowing your
>customers to download the product directly onto their PCs and charge them
for
>it.


Interesting that you should mention this...I was recently talking with
someone at TSR concerning something similar to this...I suggested to them
that they release things in a fashion similar to what Hero Games has started
doing...and that is as a .PDF file. Which is somewhat more likely than as
an RTF format...because PDF is not easy or convenient to change...which an
RTF is...and he told me they'd look into it...don't know if that makes it
likely at all...but the nice thing with doing it as PDF files...you can
format the file exactly as you want it...including color
backgrounds...pictures...whatever..but the problem with doing it that
way...while significantly reducing their costs to market...it also will
reduce the number of units they will sell...because when someone buys a
copy...all they have to do...is print a copy for themselves...and another
for any of their friends who wants one...which of course may or may not be
legal...but I wouldn't say that it is very ethical...but I guarantee that it
will happen...on the other hand that might get the game to spread enough
that more people would play and buy the other products for the game...I'd
guess that was the purpose FASA had when they released the main book for
Earthdawn as a file and gave it away free...
CIAO

[Jim Cooper]

BenandAmy wrote:
>It was pathetic---we would scout the shops every other day waiting for this stuff to come in so we could get them before anyone else could. It just wasn't available. IS ANYONE LISTENING AT TSR??????
> Maybe I'm the exception, I don't know.

Nope. Exactly the same in my town. Fortunately, I scoured
several cities at once. :)

Cheers,
Darren

[Gary V. Foss]

Spyderz wrote:

> Interesting that you should mention this...I was recently talking with
> someone at TSR concerning something similar to this...I suggested to them
> that they release things in a fashion similar to what Hero Games has started
> doing...and that is as a .PDF file. Which is somewhat more likely than as
> an RTF format...because PDF is not easy or convenient to change...which an
> RTF is...and he told me they'd look into it...don't know if that makes it
> likely at all...but the nice thing with doing it as PDF files...you can
> format the file exactly as you want it...including color
> backgrounds...pictures...whatever..but the problem with doing it that
> way...while significantly reducing their costs to market...it also will
> reduce the number of units they will sell...because when someone buys a
> copy...all they have to do...is print a copy for themselves...and another
> for any of their friends who wants one...which of course may or may not be
> legal...but I wouldn't say that it is very ethical...but I guarantee that it
> will happen...on the other hand that might get the game to spread enough
> that more people would play and buy the other products for the game...I'd
> guess that was the purpose FASA had when they released the main book for
> Earthdawn as a file and gave it away free...
> CIAO

Actually, what I think they should do is keep things like the BR boxed set and
Campaign expansions hard and release things like the sourcebooks and adventure
modules soft. That way, they could force people to buy the actual setting and
not have to worry about people giving copies of it to their buddies any more
than they already have to worry about people with access to a color copier. The
sourcebooks will INEVITABLY sell less. I mean, in my little group we own
collectively about fifteen sourcebooks, but none of us buy one that another
person already has. It's just too expensive to do that. Several individuals
own copies of the boxed set, though, as well as the campaign expansion stuff.

Another issue: Why even box the stuff? I throw those boxes out right after I
open the damn things. I don't need another flipping box, man. Just shrink wrap
the stuff together and ship it out like that with maybe a cardstock cover sheet
on top. Save the $1.80 in material costs and the extra fifty cents in shipping
costs (not to mention the lost space on bookstore shelves that could be used to
sell additional products) and lower the freaking price a buck or two.

Gary

[PDeMars@aol.co]

In a message dated 10/7/98 12:40:24 PM Central Daylight Time, xanadu@pdq.net
writes:

[PDeMars@aol.co]

In a message dated 10/7/98 1:10:31 PM Central Daylight Time,
GeeMan@linkline.com writes:

>

Better yet a CD release of the books. I think the Core Rules CD is a great
product, hundreds of dollars in books on 1 CD

[mmacgregor@STATESTREET.C]

Am I the only one out here who feels that price is not an issue? The
minute I see a new BR product hit the shelves, I don't care if it is 5
bucks or 50-i'm buying it.


Matt

[The Olesens]

> Just shrink wrap
> the stuff together and ship it out like that with maybe a cardstock cover sheet
> on top. Save the $1.80 in material costs and the extra fifty cents in shipping
> costs (not to mention the lost space on bookstore shelves that could be used to
> sell additional products) and lower the freaking price a buck or two.

Well the prettty boxes are supposed to make people buy it but for the campaign expansions
I don't see why not. I still use my campaign setting box to keet all the cardsheets and
maps I don't use often. But who needs a pretty box for Cities of the Sun and stuff like
that. Players will buy what they want to expand thier world. The nice box on Havens of
the Great Bay hasn't enticed me into buying it cause I don't need it (but I am searching
for the Rjuvik Highlands and will throw away the box when I get it).

[Lee]

In a message dated 98-10-07 13:07:59 EDT, you write:

>
I was rather unhappy that so many were just dumped on the market at the
same time. With a limited game budget, and even more limited game time, I had
very little chance to figure which ones I wanted, or which ones anyone would
play. I ended up buying as many as I could find, once the setting closed.

Lee.

[Sweet Home]

>I guess its not surprising cause it seems every line was losing money
>except the Realms. But why did they reprint the box set when the first
>went OOP? At the first of the year was when I got into Birthright


Funny you mention it went out of print... If Tsr was stupid enough to
make a box set knowing that if all were sold they would loose money no
wonder why WoTC bought them!!!

Also, if it went OOP then sales must not have been that bad. Well this
is strange, the best campaign world and fantasy setting ending its life
so early in its product life...

Sylvain Tremblay

__________________________________________________ ____
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

[BenandAmy]

>>I guess its not surprising cause it seems every line was losing money
>>except the Realms. But why did they reprint the box set when the first
>>went OOP? At the first of the year was when I got into Birthright
>
>
>Funny you mention it went out of print... If Tsr was stupid enough to
>make a box set knowing that if all were sold they would loose money no
>wonder why WoTC bought them!!!
>
>Also, if it went OOP then sales must not have been that bad. Well this
>is strange, the best campaign world and fantasy setting ending its life
>so early in its product life...
>
Actually, this product is the reason I started using TSR products. I was
heavily into SWRPG before this, but I never found D&D interesting before.
I pictured a fantasy setting that was more Tolkien--esque--------Those
stories didn't have peasants running around casting cantrips and stuff,
magic was rare. Frodo can't walk into his nearest shopping center and
examine the large stock of Holy Avengers +5, OK? I had seen people playing
in FR, and I thought it sucked. SO, this BR thing comes along, and BAM!!!!
I"m sucked in. Of course, I had to buy a copy of the PHB, DMG, Monstrous
Manual, etc. along with the BR boxed set and sourcebooks. Where are the
marketing strategists now?

[Brian Stoner]

If I remember right, there was some question about BR's future before WoTC
bought TSR. We all knew it was having trouble financially (as was all of TSR),
and when the buyout was over, we were all anxious to see how they would treat
BR. We knew some lines were on the chopping block and so were overjoyed when
BR was on the '98 catalogue. Then, of course, we were quite bummed to see it
dropped.
I'm still surprised that they dropped such a quality product without giving
it a proper chance. Everyone and their dog knew that BR had "failed" due to
poor marketing, and that the re-release of the line was exactly what it
needed. Frankly, if it had gone as planned and the hardcover had come out in
July, we'd be watching phenomenal sales. We'd be complaining that TSR was
failing its distributers by not providing enough copies.
The key to BR's future success (I hold out hope) will be strong marketing.
The core product must be a hardcover book similar to Domains of Dread and
Star*Drive. Such a book, not wrapped in plastic, will provide prospective
buyers the chance to peruse the product and decide based on what they see
there, rather than a few adds in magazines, etc. Additionally, the accessory
products should be re-released, alongside new products...so that a new one
comes out one month, and an old one the next, etc. At no time should two
products (whether new or old) come out the same month. The boxed format should
also be dropped for the expansions...instead, such products as Cities of the
Sun should come in book form, like the Book of Magecraft, etc. Map posters,
while useful, can be replaced by full page maps in an appendix. Perhaps a
seperate box, "Maps of Cerilia" or somesuch, could be sold separately and
contain full size poster maps. The Player's Secrets books ought to be rebound
into books like the aformentioned Book of Magecraft, instead of sold
seperately. Bound by region, perhaps 3 or 4 such realms per book. Finally,
advertising must center on the unique qualities of Birthright as a role playing
setting. Early marketing proclaiming it as a war gaming setting nearly killed
it. BR is not designed for war gaming..in my opinion it does a poor job of war
gaming. Instead, it should be seen as a politically dynamic world, where the
lives of the little people are in the hands of those with divine blood...where
horrific monsters, twisted by their evil blood, seek to rule or, if they cannot
dominate, destroy everyone. A world that needs heroes.

Galwylin wrote:

> At 07:45 PM 10/7/98 PDT, Sweet Home wrote:
> >
> >Funny you mention it went out of print... If Tsr was stupid enough to
> >make a box set knowing that if all were sold they would loose money no
> >wonder why WoTC bought them!!!
>
> This was after the buyout so I dunno what's up with that.
>
> >Also, if it went OOP then sales must not have been that bad. Well this
> >is strange, the best campaign world and fantasy setting ending its life
> >so early in its product life...
>
> Some weird things to me are:
> 1) Birthright going out of print before the new edition comes out so they
> reprint it
> 2) the Shadowstone novel is handed over to the Realms before the
> publication of the 98 WotC catalog and the cancelling the Birthright line
> 3) Cancelling a product (the hardcover) that was supposed to decrease the
> cost of producing a box and appeal to the adventuring public more.
>
> It makes me wonder if sales were too low and costing them money or the
> profit margin was too small where they weren't making much over the cost of
> production.
>
> This has been a Galwylin® Production
>

[The Olesens]

Galwylin wrote:

> At 04:17 AM 10/8/98 -0700, Brian Stoner wrote:
> >
> >Perhaps a
> >seperate box, "Maps of Cerilia" or somesuch, could be sold separately and
> >contain full size poster maps.
>
> They should look into doing that for every setting. I heard countless
> stories of people using their maps so throughly that they need new ones.
> They just don't want to buy the whole box set again to get them. This
> would give TSR a product that appeals to new and old gamers alike.
> Everyone likes maps and eventually everyone needs new ones.

Yeah, my map of Anuire has a hole right in the middle of Rhuobhe and my players joke
saying that the hole is the entrance to those elven/orog tunnels

[darkstar]

Complete Systems wrote:

> Nope. Exactly the same in my town. Fortunately, I scoured
> several cities at once. :)
> birthright' as the body of the message.
> Same here, I think I've got one of each of the BR products that reached OZ, so that leaves about half the novels and about 25% of the 'Players Secrets' to go!

Well I got all the Players Secrets, all the book, and all the adventures
but one (local store has 3 copies left though). The only thing I missed
out on was the novels. I only have 4.

- --
Ian Hoskins

e-Mail: hoss@box.net.au
Homepage: http://darkstar.cyberserv.com
Aduria: http://members.xoom.com/ihoskins

ICQ: 2938300 AIM: IHoskins

[darkstar]

Peter Hodge wrote:
>
> This is weird - although I know that many places in the world do have
> trouble getting TSR material (I know some places are up to six months
> "behind" the product schedule), for some reason Brisbane in Australia (where
> I live) gets new TSR material within two or three weeks of its being
> released in the US. I have never been able to figure out how this happens
> (and there is only the one store in Brisbane that carries a full line of TSR
> stuff). Not that I am complaining mind :)
>
Adeliade gets most things within a couple of weeks as well. I think it
could depend on the store though, one is really good while the other is
nearly two month behind.

- --
Ian Hoskins

e-Mail: hoss@box.net.au
Homepage: http://darkstar.cyberserv.com
Aduria: http://members.xoom.com/ihoskins

ICQ: 2938300 AIM: IHoskins

[BenandAmy]

> This is weird - although I know that many places in the world do have
> trouble getting TSR material (I know some places are up to six months
> "behind" the product schedule), for some reason Brisbane in Australia
(where
> I live) gets new TSR material within two or three weeks of its being
> released in the US. I have never been able to figure out how this happens
> (and there is only the one store in Brisbane that carries a full line of
TSR
> stuff). Not that I am complaining mind :)
>
Adeliade gets most things within a couple of weeks as well. I think it
could depend on the store though, one is really good while the other is
nearly two month behind.

..maybe I should move to Austrailia.

[JD Lail]

Ready for a shock ? According to a TSR staffer Sean
Reynolds in the BR folder on the TSR website it seems
that as a product the Birthright Boxed Set Lost Money.
Not a lot but since that item should be the best selling
one in the line if it lost money then you can bet that
the expansions were not much better if at all.

In a later post he also stated that the Players Secrets
were found to be competing with each other.Too many were
being sold at one time.

L8R