Chap 9 for discussion

[irdeggman]

Here is the thread for discussing Chap 9 of the brcs.

Here is the word file:

[RaspK_FOG]

Check out your mail, Irdeggman, OK?

And why are the dragon DRs unchanged? <_<

[Osprey]

All of the BRCS download chapters are just Word versions of the original 3. 0 BRCS, so don&#39;t expect any 3.5 revisions to be contained therein.

[RaspK_FOG]

Irdeggman, should I post the file I sent you? I think its highly relevant...

[irdeggman]

Originally posted by RaspK_FOG@Aug 15 2004, 06:13 AM
Irdeggman, should I post the file I send you? I think its highly relevant...
Yes,

I think it adds directly to the discussion - and this is the right place to talk about it.

Osprey got it right all of these, unless otherwise specified are just word versions of the BRCS-playtest that was put out over a year ago (and was 3.0). These were designed to give people something to work with when Ian and I go on break. (just trying to be helpful).

Here is the file that RaspK_FOG was referring to. (A write up of Cerilian dragons in 3.5 with some additions).

[RaspK_FOG]

;) Danke, Irdeggman&#33;

OK, now, this is it: I need help with the CRs and SR; I know that I could go with a quick check-through using MM and Draconomicon, but I feel this needs a bit more work, and I honestly have not found a pattern that accurately governs draconic SR, unless I somehow missed it...

Regarding SR, like most other abilities, I would be glad if you could check it over with other species, comparing age and size categories with the corresponding values. For the sake of simplicity, I believe it is important to tell you I only changed the flight speed and manoeuverability entries in age categories from Old to Great Wyrm; anything else remained unchanged, since they seem cool to me and nobody has made any complaints so far...

What I basically did was fill in the gaps; however, CRs and have no pattern to be followed, so I am clueless. Furthermore, as far as I recall, no mention of acid and fire immunity is mentioned in the BRCS book, but that seems obsolete; here is a quote from the Dragon, True monstrous entry (taken directly from the SRD):
Immunities (Ex): All dragons have immunity to sleep and paralysis effects. Each variety of dragon has immunity to one or two additional forms of attack no matter what its age, as given in its description.

[RaspK_FOG]

<_< Great, one post of mine and people flee like cattle...

No comments already?&#33;

[lord_arioch]

Mooooooooo&#33;

Sorry, I had to say it.
:D

[Don E]

I second lord arioch&#39;s coment, and think more focus should be put on converting various types of battle-cattle for the BRCS ;)

Personally I don&#39;t think the dragon section has to be so elaborate, or a lot of work put into it. Personally I tend to modify all unique monsters, like dragons, to the extent that the original monster writeup does not have much of an impact. Just keep it simple and as straight a conversion as possible. Skip the energy immunity, that can be added according to the DMs tastes for the relevant dragon. If it is decided to keep it I think fire and acid a good choice, being perhaps the most stereotypical dragon breath.

CR is notoriously difficult to accurately determine, and I&#39;ve found that play testing is the only way to do it for the higher CR monsters. It should be possible to find a dragon that is similar enough for a CR to be extrapolated though.

SR is a bit of a sore spot for me whne it comes to D&D dragons. They generally only have a SR around CR + 6, which means that a equivalently leveled wizard with Spell Penetration is almost guaranteed to get past the SR. I would suggest increasing this to at least CR +10, or even a point or two higher to portray the dragons as highly magical creatures.

[RaspK_FOG]

:o My oh-so-beautiful scheme worked: my fmost ineffable monster, the Cattle, War will be included in Birthright Campaign Setting for D&D Revised 3rd Edition&#33; :lol:

Seriously, now, even though I&#39;ve heard the same thing even from my friends, I do believe that core rule-books are important for 2 reasons: for providing the basis upon which any DM can start building things up, and
as an inspiration upon which more will come to pass.
I have to say I left 2 secondary reasons (well, to some of you, at least) for the end: for my own reasons [*evil_smile.jpg*] :rolleyes:
to help rules-lawyers relax, so that we can all pray on them easier... err, you know what I mean, right? ;)

I agree with you when it comes to CRs, so I&#39;ll see what I can come up with...


As for SR, the "correct" SR from 2e to 3.×e is equal to:
Spell Resistance = Magic Resistance / 5 + 11

Any ideas on this matter?

[Don E]

Originally posted by RaspK_FOG@Aug 20 2004, 07:25 PM
As for SR, the "correct" SR from 2e to 3.×e is equal to:
Spell Resistance = Magic Resistance / 5 + 11

Any ideas on this matter?
I don&#39;t think it works very well at all, and WotC realised that so the did not use the formula when updating their monsters from 2e to 3e. I think it is much more important to look at what caster level the monster is intended against. If using the CR +10 formula, a equally wizard would find his spells work 50% of the time unless there are other factors involved. With this as a base one can alter the resistance slightly depending on how magically resistant the creature is perceived to be. IMO opinion a dragon should perhaps hav a slightly higher SR.

[RaspK_FOG]

Again, this may be only a little too unfair, since most spells have a Spell Resistance entry of "Yes"; if players never reach a SR of like heights and half their spells are wasted, what&#39;s the use of playing a spellcaster other than boosting your allies anyway? I agree that the SR = CR + 10 might well apply to some dragons, but giving almost most creatures such a SR seems too much to me&#33;

[Don E]

I&#39;m not really taking a stance here on wheter this is fair or not, more along the line that this is what you&#39;ll find the majority of other monsters with. A super-quick check in the SRD reveals the following numbers: Astral Deva, CR14, SR 30(&#33;); Trumpet Archon, CR 14, SR 29; Azer, CR 2, SR 13; Half-Celestial, SR = HD +10; Kolyarut, CR 12, SR 22; etc etc. In general there aren&#39;t many creatures with a &#39;low&#39; SR, with the notable execption of dragons. Why this is the case is beyond my comprehension, but I might be impartial in that I really like dragons as major NPCs in my campaigns.

As an aside I&#39;d like to mention that I think the whole SR issue rally falls outsiide the system and don&#39;t mesh well with the rest of the rules. My preference is to give magically resistant creatures bonuses on saves or energy resistance.

[RaspK_FOG]

Totally on par with you, but you should mind that some spells simply do not work with saves or energy damage; what happens then?

In any case, I have to say I didn&#39;t quite notice that... On the other hand, most of the critters you mention are outsiders, correct? I DO suppose that has something to do with this, you know what I mean?

[Don E]

In general I find that most spells that can be stopped by SR but not by saves can easily be changed to a relevant Will or Fort save.

I think part of the problem here is that the majrity of the creatures that have SR are outsiders. A quick check for other monsters: Grig, CR 1, SR 17(Try have your first level wizard struggle with that&#33;); Ogre Mage, CR 8, CR 19; Pseudodragon, CR 1, SR 19 (and why was it that dragons have such a low SR?&#33;?), Roper, CR 12, SR 30, etc.

In general I think the dragons really got screwed over on SR.

[Mark_Aurel]

You need to consider more than just SR in gauging how well dragons cope with magic. Dragons have much higher HD and many more hit points for their CR than most creatures. They also tend to have incredible saves because of their high HD - and their high HD alone grants them immunity to a number of HD-based effects. Given that most spells both allow SR and saves, dragons have very potent defenses against direct uses of magic. Not necessarily quite as potent as celestials, but more potent than just comparing SR values would indicate.

SR itself is sort of a double defense. The basic defense available to all creatures is the saving throw. Mechanically, SR works like AC. Creatures don&#39;t generally get saves to avoid the damage once they&#39;re hit by a fighter, though. They do against spells.

If dragon SRs are &#39;low,&#39; that is more to avoid screwing the spellcasters than it is to screw the dragons. Things work well as they are; dragons are very, very formidable opponents, and generally at the top of their CR range, or even above.

Dragons don&#39;t _need_ high SR values to be competitive. Creatures like celestials, that often have paltry hit point values for their CRs (102 for an astral deva at 14, compared to 250 something for a mature adult black dragon) do need it in order to be competitive.

[Don E]

Originally posted by Mark_Aurel@Aug 24 2004, 03:42 AM
If dragon SRs are &#39;low,&#39; that is more to avoid screwing the spellcasters than it is to screw the dragons. Things work well as they are; dragons are very, very formidable opponents, and generally at the top of their CR range, or even above.
I think this in many ways is the hearth of the matter here. IMO dragons are some of the monsters that have a CR that is far too low compared to their capability. It does not require much creativity from the DMs part for a dragon to cause significant problems for a equally leveled group of iconic characters. As you say, dragons are potent enough as they are, but instead of making it an all round equal challenge for the charcters they have been made &#39;easy&#39; (in relative terms) targets for magic users, but horrible beasts to handle for the poor melee combatants.

In effect they are allowing the wizards a relatively free day (SR wise), while tkaing it out on other people in the group. As for saves I don&#39;t necessarily agree with you there. While their high abilities give them formidable saves, they are not out of scale to other monsters. In essence I am just voicing my opinion against the poor dragons being just another big lizard, as opposed to a highly magical beast and intimately connected to the arcane.

[Mark_Aurel]

Let&#39;s try some examples.

A 14th-level wizard with a base Int of 18 and a Headband of Intellect +4 casts some spells at various monsters. Let&#39;s assume he has Greater Spell Focus with whatever it is he casts, and also Greater Spell Penetration. That means his highest possible save DC for a 7th-level spell is 25 and he rolls +18 to penetrate SR. If he&#39;s a specialist in whatever it is he casts, he can cast three such spells per day.

Let&#39;s make the spells Delayed Blast Fireball (Reflex), Finger of Death (Fortitude) and Insanity (Will). The monsters are an astral deva, your example from above, and a mature adult black dragon that has the same CR.

In all cases, the wizard must roll a 12 or better to penetrate the deva&#39;s SR (55% chance of success) and a 5 or better to penetrate the dragon&#39;s SR (80% chance of success).

Then we have the saves.

The dragon needs to roll a 7 or better to make its Fortitude save (30% chance of success), a 12 or better to make its Reflex save (55% chance of success) and a 10 or better to make its Will save (45% chance of success).

The deva needs to roll an 11 or better to make its Fortitude save (50% chance of success), and a 13 or better to make its Reflex or Will saves (60% chance of success).

(All chances of success are in the wizard&#39;s favor.)

The wizard has a 24% chance of slaying the dragon with a Finger of Death, and a 22.5% chance of slaying the deva with the same spell. A slight difference in the deva&#39;s favor. If you also take into account the secondary damage (3d6+14, or 24.5 on average), that damage is 24% of the deva&#39;s hit points on average, but only 9.7% of the dragon&#39;s.

The base average damage for a 14d6 Delayed Blast Fireball is 49. The wizard could cast a metamagicked lower-level spell instead, which would do more damage, but have an easier save DC. All the percentages considered, as well as the deva&#39;s fire resistance of 10, it comes down to the following average damage values: 30.38 hit points against the dragon, and 16.06 against the deva. Clearly the dragon fares better against direct damage spells - it only took 12% of its total hit points, while the deva took 15.7%. So, if you want to whittle down either with damaging spells, it&#39;s going to take longer to whittle down the dragon. What&#39;s also important to take note of is that in the best-case scenario (you penetrate SR, the creature fails its save), you&#39;ll do away with 38% of the deva&#39;s hp in one blow, but only 19% of the dragon&#39;s.

Finally, Insanity. The wizard has a 33% chance of affecting the deva, and a 36% chance of affecting the dragon. Of course, either creature, and particularly the dragon, is still very dangerous.

One final factor to consider, however - the dragon entry has no feats, while the astral deva has Great Fortitude. Since the dragon has nearly twice as many HD, it should also have a proportionate number of feats - and if you give the dragon Great Fortitude and Iron Will, it&#39;ll come out ahead by a small margin in all the above categories.

[Mark_Aurel]

Oh, drat - glossing over books too quickly isn&#39;t a good idea, it would seem. The dragon&#39;s SR is 21, and the fear save DC is 23. Ah well - the dragon could be the lucky holder of Boost Spell Resistance from Book of Vile Darkness.

As for dragon CRs, they&#39;re somewhat different from those of other creatures. The dragon&#39;s basic CR assumes that the party will have some time to prepare for an encounter with it and that they won&#39;t get into random fights with them. At least that&#39;s the official line about them.
Which means that fighters should have the appropriate boosting spells in place before engaging them.

If you think dragons are sitting ducks for magic, I think you&#39;re mistaken. And even if they were, there are monsters that present different levels of challenges depending on the class. Undead are bad for rogues, good for clerics. Golems are very bad for any spellcaster. Dragons are pretty rough to deal with for anyone.


While their high abilities give them formidable saves, they are not out of scale to other monsters.

It&#39;s not their high abilities that give dragons very good saves. It&#39;s their high HD for their CR, combined with the fact that the Dragon type grants good saves across the board. Astral devas actually have higher abilities than mature adult black dragons in all save-relevant categories except Constitution, which is 18 to 21 (a +1 difference in the dragon&#39;s favor). While there are creatures with higher HD per CR than dragons, like the biggest vermin or mindless undead, those really are true sitting ducks in comparison.

[Don E]

Originally posted by Mark_Aurel@Aug 24 2004, 04:03 PM
Let&#39;s try some examples.
<snip example of 14th level wizard against mature balck dragon and astral deva>
So let&#39;s say the two monsters in question have roughly the same capability against the wizard in the group. Now compare the martial aspect of the fight and one finds that the dragon far outstrips the astral deva in most aspect like hp and attack capability. Back to my comment about the dragon, I think it is clear that the dragon is somehow assigned a rather low. So is the problem a matter of the dragon having a wrong &#39;CR&#39; in my opinion.

[Don E]

Originally posted by Mark_Aurel@Aug 24 2004, 04:18 PM
As for dragon CRs, they&#39;re somewhat different from those of other creatures. The dragon&#39;s basic CR assumes that the party will have some time to prepare for an encounter with it and that they won&#39;t get into random fights with them. At least that&#39;s the official line about them.
Which means that fighters should have the appropriate boosting spells in place before engaging them.
Why is that? I think the matter of CR is that it is very much based on the same set of circumstances, and I don&#39;t see why it would be more reasonable for the characters to stumble across a astral deva in some random dungeon without any preparation.

[Mark_Aurel]

Originally posted by Don E+Aug 25 2004, 08:52 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Don E @ Aug 25 2004, 08:52 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Mark_Aurel@Aug 24 2004, 04:18 PM
As for dragon CRs, they&#39;re somewhat different from those of other creatures. The dragon&#39;s basic CR assumes that the party will have some time to prepare for an encounter with it and that they won&#39;t get into random fights with them. At least that&#39;s the official line about them.
Which means that fighters should have the appropriate boosting spells in place before engaging them.
Why is that? I think the matter of CR is that it is very much based on the same set of circumstances, and I don&#39;t see why it would be more reasonable for the characters to stumble across a astral deva in some random dungeon without any preparation. [/b][/quote]
I don&#39;t know exactly why it is the way it is. I can speculate, however, that part of the reason is that dragons are supposed to be the most elite monsters in D&D. In many cases, the same standard for CRs has been adapted for unique and powerful monsters, like archfiends. The assumption remains the same - that parties are generally supposed to able to prepare for the encounter, reducing the advantages of the monster somewhat, buffing up fighters, or preparing specific attacks keyed to the monster&#39;s vulnerabilities.


So let&#39;s say the two monsters in question have roughly the same capability against the wizard in the group. Now compare the martial aspect of the fight and one finds that the dragon far outstrips the astral deva in most aspect like hp and attack capability.

I&#39;m not sure what you&#39;re trying to complain about here. First you say that dragons are too weak against magic, and now they&#39;re too strong in combat? That devas are less of a challenge to a melee fighter that can catch up with it? Every monster can&#39;t be the exact same challenge to every class, or they&#39;d have identical stats. Devas have many magical and special abilities that dragons of their CR do not have. It requires a bit more finesse and skill on the DM&#39;s part to make the deva as effective a challenge as it should be, but it&#39;s certainly within the realm of possibility. Most of the deva&#39;s abilities are geared towards fighting evil as well. An evil party will no doubt have issues with things like the deva&#39;s at will holy smite, holy word, or its holy aura. Even against good creatures, the deva&#39;s blade barrier will inflict more damage than the mature adult black dragon&#39;s breath weapon, even if it&#39;s only usable once per day.

[RaspK_FOG]

You know, the issue here is not whether a dragon is a fair challenge, all right? I only took what I had in my hands and filled up the gaps, correct? Now, can we solve this issue and forget the whole thing? If someone wants to buff up a dragon, that&#39;s easy, but it&#39;s the same as with salt: but only a little and no one will complain, but too much and most will complain... B)

[Don E]

Originally posted by Mark_Aurel@Aug 25 2004, 07:31 PM
I don&#39;t know exactly why it is the way it is. I can speculate, however, that part of the reason is that dragons are supposed to be the most elite monsters in D&D. In many cases, the same standard for CRs has been adapted for unique and powerful monsters, like archfiends. The assumption remains the same - that parties are generally supposed to able to prepare for the encounter, reducing the advantages of the monster somewhat, buffing up fighters, or preparing specific attacks keyed to the monster&#39;s vulnerabilities.
I&#39;m not sure where you get this from , as I see this more as a matter of adjusting the EL of said encounter. If the dragon/archfiend ambushes he charaters bump up the EL, if the characters prepare an ambush reduce the EL.


I&#39;m not sure what you&#39;re trying to complain about here. First you say that dragons are too weak against magic, and now they&#39;re too strong in combat?
Yes, in essence this is what I&#39;m not happy about when it comes to the dragons, in addition to the CR being a bit low. It is a matter of taste, but mine goes along the lines that dragons (and particularly in BR) are highly proficient users of magic, and should have magic as their strongest form of attack and defense. I agree that all monsters can&#39;t have the same strong and weak sides, but the dragon have IMO come out with the wrong weak side.

[Don E]

Originally posted by RaspK_FOG@Aug 26 2004, 02:51 AM
You know, the issue here is not whether a dragon is a fair challenge, all right?
No, but it is an interesting issue what type of a challenge a dragon should be.


I only took what I had in my hands and filled up the gaps, correct? Now, can we solve this issue and forget the whole thing?
I also noticed that the AC has been reduced overall for the dragon, with especially the lower age categories coming out low. Is this intentional? I don&#39;t think this met by an equal increase in other abilities.

The simplest thing would be to just use the formula for the red dragon, SR = CR +6. Keep it in line with the MM and nobody should complain.

[RaspK_FOG]

Actually, these have been calculated along and checked through with various issues taken into account, from Hit Dice to size and age categories; using CR as a guideline is a faulty way of designing monsters, especially so since you yourself has proven that things don&#39;t go along with CR. The table shows a remarkable pattern; just try to find out how it plays out and you will see what I mean...

And the Cerilian dragon is identical to the blue dragon in terms of size-to-age categories and Hit Dice.

[Don E]

Originally posted by RaspK_FOG@Aug 26 2004, 06:56 AM
Actually, these have been calculated along and checked through with various issues taken into account, from Hit Dice to size and age categories; using CR as a guideline is a faulty way of designing monsters, especially so since you yourself has proven that things don&#39;t go along with CR. The table shows a remarkable pattern; just try to find out how it plays out and you will see what I mean...

And the Cerilian dragon is identical to the blue dragon in terms of size-to-age categories and Hit Dice.
While the CR in itself is by no means a foolproof measure, the target CR is often very useful when designing monsters. E.g. give a monster too high or too low AC relative to the group of characters it can realistically expect to face and it is suddenly not a very good design.

Lets assume that the CR in the MM is relatively &#39;correct&#39;, and that the Cerilian dragon should be designed around similar guidelines. In comparison to the blue dragon the cerilian one has a CR one higher. Comparing the two monsters the biggest difference is the cerilian dragon having an AC of 5 points lower, which is quite significant, without much to compensate for this. Yes, the higher age categories have a slightly higher Fear DC, SR and saves, but especially the lower age categories have little to compensate for this.

EDIT: I quick check in the SRD reveals that all dragons in the MM have a natural armour modifier of one less than their HD.

In all it is hardly an important issue, and I think it is more useful to just give the poor dragon whatever abilities that are the baseline. When giving individual dragons their feats (long live the Draconomicon) they can easily become so broken that it is in many ways a moot point.

[RaspK_FOG]

You mention that all dragons in the MM have an AC equal their HD minus 1. Should I mention that you both fail to say what part of the AC you mean and that if you mean their natural armour bonus then this is not a rule per se? Battle, oceanus, and rust: AC = HD; radiant: AC = HD - 4; shadow: AC = HD + 3.

I, as I have earlier mentioned, have only filled up existing gaps, even correcting flight speeds and maneuverabilities that were blatantly wrong (sorry BRCS Team, this is not an attack against you) according to the patterns laid out by WotC books. It is true that the Cerilian dragon starts with no natural armour (something unheard of most dragons, but this one can beat most of them with its superior spellcasting and supernatural abilities), but that is how the pattern goes as laid out already; if the team is OK with that, the little one could start with a +3 to +6 natural armour bonus (preferrable is indeed +5, I give you that), going up by +3 from that point on.

[Don E]

Originally posted by RaspK_FOG@Aug 26 2004, 06:47 PM
You mention that all dragons in the MM have an AC equal their HD minus 1. Should I mention that you both fail to say what part of the AC you mean and that if you mean their natural armour bonus then this is not a rule per se? Battle, oceanus, and rust: AC = HD; radiant: AC = HD - 4; shadow: AC = HD + 3.
As I said it was the natural armour part of the AC. I agree that it is not a rule since it is not written as a rule anywhere (those you mention are not in the MM), but it appeared that you did not want to change the Cerilian dragon too much from the standard versions.


It is true that the Cerilian dragon starts with no natural armour (something unheard of most dragons, but this one can beat most of them with its superior spellcasting and supernatural abilities), but that is how the pattern goes as laid out already; if the team is OK with that, the little one could start with a +3 to +6 natural armour bonus (preferrable is indeed +5, I give you that), going up by +3 from that point on.

The problem with the younger dragons, where the AC is truly low, is that they don&#39;t have any spellcasting ability or supernatural abilities to make up for the lower AC.

[RaspK_FOG]

Well, if it was only up to my hands (that is, if people agree the dragon needs a little boosting), I could easily slap a +5 increase in the natural armour bonus to AC for all its age categories and be done with it; as simple as that... And I apologise for my comment, I missed that in your edit you mentioned it was the natural armour bonus you were writing about.

Spell Resistance, on the other hand, is another thing. That needs a whole more forethought than simply adjusting it as we see fit. CRs also need a little work before we assign any numbers anywhere.

And I am glad you agree with me when it comes to how buffed up dragons can be if properly prepared. ;)

[Raesene Andu]

And we are talking about Dragon before we add in any magicial items they may have collected over the years. Cerilian Dragons have been around a while and would likely have a good sized horde of magic for taking out pesky adventurers.

[RaspK_FOG]

B) Talking about "Great Balls of Fire"&#33;

[Ksaturn]

This conversation seems to have gone nuts... or maybe my sleep is catching-up... This is about Ch 9 of BR material not core rules... please don&#39;t get me wrong but i agree with who said they modify unique creatures to suit thier tastes... i mean come on... the awnsegh... What about bloodlines? what keeps these imoortals from just eating a minor scion? without even knowing it? i probly missed alot tho....