Mark A Vandermeulen
09-15-1998, 11:01 PM
On Tue, 15 Sep 1998 Saberdrake@aol.com wrote:
> I would agree with you if this was the FR or Greyhawk or any other magic rich
> realm. But BR is very low magic and therefore, more prone to technilogical
> advancement from their craftsmen. Humans in the real world have always tried
> to improve life with new gadgets and gizmos that do things to make life
> easier. Why wouldn't it be different in BR? They just don't have magic to fall
> back on as much. Just think, only blooded people can be wizards and even then
> do you think those blooded mages are going to spend time making items that
> replace technology? I think that technilogical advancements in BR is only
> common sence since magic is so scarce. However, this is only my opinion.
My opinion (and I'm only jumping in here because I think this debate is
kind of fun, not because I think one vision is more "right" than the
other) is that there is something even more fundamental to the basis of
"science" and technological advancement than we are even considering here.
First of all (and this may have already been mentioned) the kind of
"tinkering" necessary to produce technological advances is highly
dependant upon having a certain amount of free time to spend on things
that might not be directly beneficial. In a medieval social structure this
may be extremely rare, and particularly in the case of political
decentralization (such as with the break-up of the Anuirean Empire) which
creates conditions engendering near-constant warfare, which tends to be
very draining on the cultural sources of productions (read:
slaves/serfs/peasants). Thus your conception of the current state of
anuirean civilization will make it more or less likely to see the
development of gunpowder or steam engines.
It is fairly obvious that Anuire is coming out of one such politically
decentralized period, where warfare was relatively prevalent, but styles
and individual recent histories may differ as to how far into the
subsequent "calmer" period the civilization has advanced. Some may also
find it interesting to role-play the process of a regent attempting to
establish increasing centralization in the face of decentralizing forces;
this is a theme played on in the set-ups of several Brecht and Vos domain
descriptions, and particularly in the Rjurik nations. Others will find it
more interesting to play further up the "centralization curve" toward a
more renaissance culture, and certain factors, in particular the presence
of a potentially strong guilder class, indicate that the rules are
amenable for that, too.
I should mention, however, that the presence of guilders does not
necessarily imply the presence of renaissance-level culture. One could
easily imagine a medieval system which incorporates wielders of economic
power. It would just add to the balance of decentralized power
characterized by wielders of religious/ceremonial power and wielders of
political/military power characterized by the RL medieval system. I would
argue that guilders in Anuire would do EVERYTHING IN THEIR POWER to ensure
that most landed domain rulers DO NOT EVER control guild holdings or trade
routes. Doing so erodes their own power base. Now, numerous people have
pointed out that guilders tend to become immensely powerful in Anuire, and
others have noted that fighters tend to be at a disadvantage because they
only gain RP from provinces and law holdings, while others have more
possible RP sources. I can think of a solution to this problem for those
who wish to play at a more medieval level, which seems almost obvious when
thought of in this way (I can't believe I didn't think of it before): Only
fighter regents can muster knight units. Knights are generally recognized
to be the premier fighting unit in the BR system, and it makes a certain
amount of sense that they would only follow a member of the hereditary
political/military heirarchy (it is in their own best interest as members
of that heirarchy). Fighter lieutennants (or monuments mentioned by an
earlier poster) might allow non-fighter regents to muster a limited
number of knight units, counting as the regent's lieutennant action, and
producing at most one unit per season. (Paladins, as fighers, also gain
this advantage over priests, allowing me to justify my continuing
belief that paladins should never be allowed realm spells.)
Returning to the main point of this post (if that is by this time at all
possible), there is another reason that science and technological progress
might be very difficult to achieve in Anuirean (or indeed Cerilian)
culture. They say that necessity is the mother of invention, but things
are not quite so simple as that. In order for necessity to translate into
invention, a number of fundamental attitudes must be held in the mind of
the human doing the inventing. The agent of invention must 1.) believe
that the universe is capable of change, 2.) that change is capable of
producing the betterment of life, rather than the general downfall of
order into chaos and death, and that 3.) he is personally capable of
effecting changes of the kind that produce improvement. It has been said
that science requires "a profound lack of humility before nature," and it
is probably no accident that it is not known to have developed in most
known human cultures, at least to the extent that it did in Western
European culture and its lineal decendants.
Now, belief #1 above is probably no problem to most Cerilians. After all,
a fundamental and universal belief among them is that the old gods died
and new ones took their place. Change happens. #2 is a little more
problematical, and I would say that this belief is almost certainly
foreign to the Vos, and I could make the argument for at least the
"fundamentalist/tribalist" Rjurik as well. #3, however, is where you
really begin to get stuck. Most people on the face of Cerilia, the 99.1
percent (or whatever) who are not blooded, are deeply ingrained with the
fundamental belief that there is a subset of humanity that is capable of
Making Things Happen, and that they do not belong to that set. It is
probably a part of their religion (except possibily that of
Sera/Sarimie) and reinforced by their basic mythological stories. Such a
fundamental belief system about the nature of the world is likely to be
extremely difficult to break out, and each individual DM's opinion about
this will determine whether cultural advancement will take the form of a
"scientific technology" which develops along side the magical structure of
the cultural elite, or a "magical technology" which develops within the
structure of the cultural elite. A scientific technology will develop much
faster, as it created by the intellegent among the "common people" and has
a much greater variation in ideas, viewpoints and theories upon which to
proceed, whereas a "magical technology" will develop more slowly, because
it is created by the intelligent among the "elite" (i.e. blooded), which
is a far smaller group, and which is much more likely to be very similar
in the way they think, and much more willing to buy into an inertial
conception of "the right way to do things." (Note the continued support of
Platonic metaphysics among European intelligensia up until the
Renaissance.)
A final aside before I wind this baby up. The dwarven culture appears to
me to be the one exception to this rule. Dwarven children are taught that
each once of them is special, and beloved of Moradin. Thus each is
empowered to the "heroic" ability to engender change. Anuireans are taught
that the "noble warrior" is special, and beloved of Haelyn; Brechts that
the wealthy are special, and beloved of Sera. Finally, elves appear to me
to be too much concerned with the status quo and returning things back to
the way they were in the "good old days" to be very interested in an
experimental approach. This is probably a fundamental result of elven
immortality as they respond to a culturally tramatic event. Change in
elven culture probably cannot begin until a generation of elves who do not
remember the "good old times" as strongly can come into power, which could
be a very long time indeed.
So, these are my criteria for DM's to take into account when deciding
whether to incorporate technological advances into their Fantasy
role-playing games. I can certainly see interesting possibilities in both
types of cultures.
Mark VanderMeulen
vander+@pitt.edu
(who is seriously impressed by your stamina if you actually made it this
far)
> I would agree with you if this was the FR or Greyhawk or any other magic rich
> realm. But BR is very low magic and therefore, more prone to technilogical
> advancement from their craftsmen. Humans in the real world have always tried
> to improve life with new gadgets and gizmos that do things to make life
> easier. Why wouldn't it be different in BR? They just don't have magic to fall
> back on as much. Just think, only blooded people can be wizards and even then
> do you think those blooded mages are going to spend time making items that
> replace technology? I think that technilogical advancements in BR is only
> common sence since magic is so scarce. However, this is only my opinion.
My opinion (and I'm only jumping in here because I think this debate is
kind of fun, not because I think one vision is more "right" than the
other) is that there is something even more fundamental to the basis of
"science" and technological advancement than we are even considering here.
First of all (and this may have already been mentioned) the kind of
"tinkering" necessary to produce technological advances is highly
dependant upon having a certain amount of free time to spend on things
that might not be directly beneficial. In a medieval social structure this
may be extremely rare, and particularly in the case of political
decentralization (such as with the break-up of the Anuirean Empire) which
creates conditions engendering near-constant warfare, which tends to be
very draining on the cultural sources of productions (read:
slaves/serfs/peasants). Thus your conception of the current state of
anuirean civilization will make it more or less likely to see the
development of gunpowder or steam engines.
It is fairly obvious that Anuire is coming out of one such politically
decentralized period, where warfare was relatively prevalent, but styles
and individual recent histories may differ as to how far into the
subsequent "calmer" period the civilization has advanced. Some may also
find it interesting to role-play the process of a regent attempting to
establish increasing centralization in the face of decentralizing forces;
this is a theme played on in the set-ups of several Brecht and Vos domain
descriptions, and particularly in the Rjurik nations. Others will find it
more interesting to play further up the "centralization curve" toward a
more renaissance culture, and certain factors, in particular the presence
of a potentially strong guilder class, indicate that the rules are
amenable for that, too.
I should mention, however, that the presence of guilders does not
necessarily imply the presence of renaissance-level culture. One could
easily imagine a medieval system which incorporates wielders of economic
power. It would just add to the balance of decentralized power
characterized by wielders of religious/ceremonial power and wielders of
political/military power characterized by the RL medieval system. I would
argue that guilders in Anuire would do EVERYTHING IN THEIR POWER to ensure
that most landed domain rulers DO NOT EVER control guild holdings or trade
routes. Doing so erodes their own power base. Now, numerous people have
pointed out that guilders tend to become immensely powerful in Anuire, and
others have noted that fighters tend to be at a disadvantage because they
only gain RP from provinces and law holdings, while others have more
possible RP sources. I can think of a solution to this problem for those
who wish to play at a more medieval level, which seems almost obvious when
thought of in this way (I can't believe I didn't think of it before): Only
fighter regents can muster knight units. Knights are generally recognized
to be the premier fighting unit in the BR system, and it makes a certain
amount of sense that they would only follow a member of the hereditary
political/military heirarchy (it is in their own best interest as members
of that heirarchy). Fighter lieutennants (or monuments mentioned by an
earlier poster) might allow non-fighter regents to muster a limited
number of knight units, counting as the regent's lieutennant action, and
producing at most one unit per season. (Paladins, as fighers, also gain
this advantage over priests, allowing me to justify my continuing
belief that paladins should never be allowed realm spells.)
Returning to the main point of this post (if that is by this time at all
possible), there is another reason that science and technological progress
might be very difficult to achieve in Anuirean (or indeed Cerilian)
culture. They say that necessity is the mother of invention, but things
are not quite so simple as that. In order for necessity to translate into
invention, a number of fundamental attitudes must be held in the mind of
the human doing the inventing. The agent of invention must 1.) believe
that the universe is capable of change, 2.) that change is capable of
producing the betterment of life, rather than the general downfall of
order into chaos and death, and that 3.) he is personally capable of
effecting changes of the kind that produce improvement. It has been said
that science requires "a profound lack of humility before nature," and it
is probably no accident that it is not known to have developed in most
known human cultures, at least to the extent that it did in Western
European culture and its lineal decendants.
Now, belief #1 above is probably no problem to most Cerilians. After all,
a fundamental and universal belief among them is that the old gods died
and new ones took their place. Change happens. #2 is a little more
problematical, and I would say that this belief is almost certainly
foreign to the Vos, and I could make the argument for at least the
"fundamentalist/tribalist" Rjurik as well. #3, however, is where you
really begin to get stuck. Most people on the face of Cerilia, the 99.1
percent (or whatever) who are not blooded, are deeply ingrained with the
fundamental belief that there is a subset of humanity that is capable of
Making Things Happen, and that they do not belong to that set. It is
probably a part of their religion (except possibily that of
Sera/Sarimie) and reinforced by their basic mythological stories. Such a
fundamental belief system about the nature of the world is likely to be
extremely difficult to break out, and each individual DM's opinion about
this will determine whether cultural advancement will take the form of a
"scientific technology" which develops along side the magical structure of
the cultural elite, or a "magical technology" which develops within the
structure of the cultural elite. A scientific technology will develop much
faster, as it created by the intellegent among the "common people" and has
a much greater variation in ideas, viewpoints and theories upon which to
proceed, whereas a "magical technology" will develop more slowly, because
it is created by the intelligent among the "elite" (i.e. blooded), which
is a far smaller group, and which is much more likely to be very similar
in the way they think, and much more willing to buy into an inertial
conception of "the right way to do things." (Note the continued support of
Platonic metaphysics among European intelligensia up until the
Renaissance.)
A final aside before I wind this baby up. The dwarven culture appears to
me to be the one exception to this rule. Dwarven children are taught that
each once of them is special, and beloved of Moradin. Thus each is
empowered to the "heroic" ability to engender change. Anuireans are taught
that the "noble warrior" is special, and beloved of Haelyn; Brechts that
the wealthy are special, and beloved of Sera. Finally, elves appear to me
to be too much concerned with the status quo and returning things back to
the way they were in the "good old days" to be very interested in an
experimental approach. This is probably a fundamental result of elven
immortality as they respond to a culturally tramatic event. Change in
elven culture probably cannot begin until a generation of elves who do not
remember the "good old times" as strongly can come into power, which could
be a very long time indeed.
So, these are my criteria for DM's to take into account when deciding
whether to incorporate technological advances into their Fantasy
role-playing games. I can certainly see interesting possibilities in both
types of cultures.
Mark VanderMeulen
vander+@pitt.edu
(who is seriously impressed by your stamina if you actually made it this
far)