ships

[Bearcat]

>> Building ships are just like mustering any other troop (muster army) only
>> more expensive than most. The Brecht tower ships take longer and even more
>> money.
>>
>> Ed Stark
>>
>
>Maybe you can dig up twenty suits of plate mail that quick but building a ship
>can take months or years.

I don't think so. Gurps Hi-Tech (anyone out there want to tell me
that GURPS isn't realistic?) says on the side bar on page 55 that a 50-100
ton caravel requires 250 hours of labor from a skilled carpenter, 250 from a
skilled blacksmith, and 1,500 hours of unskilled labor. That means that it
would take a carpenter, a blacksmith, and six other guys to make that ship
in 250 hours. Assuming that they work for roughly eight hours each day they
will finish the ship in 31 days and two hours, just under Cerilia's 32 day
month.
Acoording to the Fighter's Handbook a suit of plate mail takes 14
weeks to produce when worked upon by 2 apprentices and half a superviser per
eight hour day (the superviser puts in four hours per day). To bring in the
suit in three and a half weeks (just in time for the muster) we would have
to doublethe number of workers _and_ put in a night shift. This means that
we would require a total of eight apprentices and two supervisers to bring
one suit of armor in time for the soldiers to muster. If we want to create
_200_ suits (1 unit worth) then we require an immense task force of 1,600
apprentices and 400 supervisers to finish the task in one month (This is
obviously one of the reasons that you need at least a level three province
to muster Elite infantry). Not only that, each suit of plate mail must be
custom fitted to the wearer. This means that the soldiers must be present at
least some of the time and that the regent can't "order-out" for plate mail.
Thus, even though it is cheaper to muster a unit of elite infantry
it is a lot more work that building a ship. It also takes about the same
amount of time.

Bearcat
lcgm@elogica.com.br
Come visit Bearcat's Birthright Homepage at:
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Cavern/6204

[Bearcat]

>hey, do any of you all reallize the rules can change, go with what your DM
>says

I think that I can safely say that we _are_ a bunch of DMs trying to
figure out what to say. Of course we can change the rules to what we see fit
but it tends to make things more complicated for us, and we have to justify
them to our players as well.

Bearcat
lcgm@elogica.com.br
Come visit Bearcat's Birthright Homepage at:
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Cavern/6204

[Bearcat]

>IMC, regents can only muster
>a number of armies up to the level of their province(s) *per year*,
>including ships, and only during the winter months (unless they are
>mercs) - or summer months if I'm feeling nice.

This would devastate the players in my campaign as almost every
battle turns into a bloodbath very quickly. The first and second battles of
Ilien's rebellion are good examples: in the two a total of about 1,400
peasant and 800 knights squared off, with roughly 70 rebels coming out in
the end. Not only were the rebels lucky, the commander of ilien's forces was
completely incompetent (he had, after all, pushed his country into revolt in
just nine months of rule.)

Bearcat
lcgm@elogica.com.br
Come visit Bearcat's Birthright Homepage at:
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Cavern/6204

[Bearcat]

>Hmm... I've always had a problem with the way GURPS takes real-world research
>and tries to convert them into fantasy, super-heroic, sci-fi, etc. Putting
>this much "realism" into a fictional story tends to overcomplicate things and
>often reduces great heros to quivering puddles of gore. But, I take your
>point and it is valid to an extent.

Hey, don't get me wrong here, I also think that gurps is a little
overrealistic most of the time. That's why I play birthright instead. I just
think that they are probably more likely to be right about something than
not, that's all.

>I personally take the view that troops mustered from provinces have their OWN
>weapons an armor.

I agree with you for the most part here, but in the case that I am
mentioning I very much doubt that one can ask 200 odd soldiers to provide
their own suits of 700+ gp armor.

>So, when you put out the call to muster certain kinds of warriors to form
>units, the only time and effort involved is in waiting for them to pack their
>stuff, get thier lives in order, show up and sign in for pay.

They also get assigned to officers, platoons, recieve briefings,
training, etc...

>Think of the US in WWII. Yeah, we had the capability to build whole fleets
>(and we had to, to replace what was lost in the beginning of the War), but it
>took a loooong time to replace all that. I decided that this paradigm was
>easier for a modern role-player lock onto.

You have to realize that battle ships are much more complicated than
a caravel (or did caravels have to devote huge amounts of space to
instruction manuals), they are filled with presiscion equiptment, radio and
lots of stuff with really small and delicate parts. the smallest part of a
caravel(besides nails of course) is the doorknob on the captain's chamber.


Bearcat
lcgm@elogica.com.br
Come visit Bearcat's Birthright Homepage at:
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Cavern/6204

[Ed Stark]

At 06:34 PM 7/27/98 EDT, you wrote:
>
>In a message dated 7/27/98 5:24:43 PM, you wrote:
>
>>Are ships a build action, muster action or something else?
>
>It's up to the individual DM, but I'd rule it a build, since ships are such
>major investments.
>
>-DKE

Building ships are just like mustering any other troop (muster army) only
more expensive than most. The Brecht tower ships take longer and even more
money.


Ed Stark
(aka Ted, T'ed, and Hey, You, We've Got An Emergency Project Here!)
Game Designer, Wizards of the Coast/TSR Division
Asst. Brand Manager
ALTERNITY Team
TSR Website: http://www.tsr.com

[The Olesens]

Ed Stark wrote:

> At 06:34 PM 7/27/98 EDT, you wrote:
> >
> >In a message dated 7/27/98 5:24:43 PM, you wrote:
> >
> >>Are ships a build action, muster action or something else?
> >
> >It's up to the individual DM, but I'd rule it a build, since ships are such
> >major investments.
> >
> >-DKE
>
> Building ships are just like mustering any other troop (muster army) only
> more expensive than most. The Brecht tower ships take longer and even more
> money.
>
> Ed Stark
>

Maybe you can dig up twenty suits of plate mail that quick but building a ship
can take monthes or years.

[Oyvind Gronnesby]

At 07:44 28.07.98 +0900, you wrote:
>Are ships a build action, muster action or something else?

In our campaign we made building of ships a modified build action.
Each Domain Turn you roll 1d4 to see how the progress of the shipbuilding.
If you own the shipyard that the ship is built in you will have to pay as
the progress increase, but if you build your ships in someone elses shipyard
you can, of course, negotiate the terms.


Oyvind Gronnesby

[Sythryc@aol.co]

hey, do any of you all reallize the rules can change, go with what your DM
says

[The Olesens]

Bearcat wrote:

> >hey, do any of you all reallize the rules can change, go with what your DM
> >says
>
> I think that I can safely say that we _are_ a bunch of DMs trying to
> figure out what to say. Of course we can change the rules to what we see fit
> but it tends to make things more complicated for us, and we have to justify
> them to our players as well.
>
>

I am a DM. So there's one. We can't just cange rules wen ever we feel like
it. How about this to a bunch of 20th level figters:

I think I will revesre THAC0 so you need the number or lower to hit.

Effectively requireing the fighters' to roll a -9 or lower to hit an unarmored
goblin on a d20


Okay, a little drasic but the point is: we need a reason. It is also nicer if
all DMs in a setting play by the same rules (makes discussion easier).

Right now my face-to-face group is argueing over the Fatigue rules in the
Player's Option (but that is another post).

[DKEvermore@aol.co]

In a message dated 98-07-28 13:51:32 EDT, you write:

> >Maybe you can dig up twenty suits of plate mail that quick but building a
> ship
> >can take months or years.
>
> I don't think so. Gurps Hi-Tech (anyone out there want to tell me
> that GURPS isn't realistic?) says on the side bar on page 55 that a 50-100
> ton caravel requires 250 hours of labor from a skilled carpenter, 250 from
a
> skilled blacksmith, and 1,500 hours of unskilled labor. That means that it
> would take a carpenter, a blacksmith, and six other guys to make that ship
> in 250 hours. Assuming that they work for roughly eight hours each day they
> will finish the ship in 31 days and two hours, just under Cerilia's 32 day
> month.
> Acoording to the Fighter's Handbook a suit of plate mail takes 14
> weeks to produce when worked upon by 2 apprentices and half a superviser
per
> eight hour day (the superviser puts in four hours per day). To bring in the
> suit in three and a half weeks (just in time for the muster) we would have
> to doublethe number of workers _and_ put in a night shift. This means that
> we would require a total of eight apprentices and two supervisers to bring
> one suit of armor in time for the soldiers to muster. If we want to create
> _200_ suits (1 unit worth) then we require an immense task force of 1,600
> apprentices and 400 supervisers to finish the task in one month (This is
> obviously one of the reasons that you need at least a level three province
> to muster Elite infantry). Not only that, each suit of plate mail must be
> custom fitted to the wearer. This means that the soldiers must be present
at
> least some of the time and that the regent can't "order-out" for plate
mail.

Hmm... I've always had a problem with the way GURPS takes real-world research
and tries to convert them into fantasy, super-heroic, sci-fi, etc. Putting
this much "realism" into a fictional story tends to overcomplicate things and
often reduces great heros to quivering puddles of gore. But, I take your
point and it is valid to an extent.

I personally take the view that troops mustered from provinces have their OWN
weapons an armor. If they do not, they get to use the "state equipment" (that
means whatever odd bits and old armor scavenged from past battlefields the
state is willing to distribute to the peasants) and thier farm tools. This is
what a levy is.

So, when you put out the call to muster certain kinds of warriors to form
units, the only time and effort involved is in waiting for them to pack their
stuff, get thier lives in order, show up and sign in for pay.

>
> Thus, even though it is cheaper to muster a unit of elite infantry
> it is a lot more work that building a ship. It also takes about the same
> amount of time.
>

So, from the above, you can see that from my point of view, building a ship is
much more resource-intensive. So, I use a build action instead of muster.
Why? Because in may campaigns, none of the PC kingdoms were naval powers.
Making this a build action kept my NPC kingdoms (a few of which were
controlled by players who were not involved in the table-top rpg portion) from
quickly dominating the seas.

Here's a scenario for you: A powerful regent has just completed a deal in
which he gained complete access to a new vassals treasury. He determined
then, that if he could dominate the seas, he impose taxes on all sea trade
lanes within his lengthy reach. He decide to triple the size of his fleet.
He's got the cash. With a muster, he can have it in one (1) month!! I
decided that this would be immensely unfair, and had the regent instead use a
Build action, in order to give the rest of the world half a chance.

Think of the US in WWII. Yeah, we had the capability to build whole fleets
(and we had to, to replace what was lost in the beginning of the War), but it
took a loooong time to replace all that. I decided that this paradigm was
easier for a modern role-player lock onto.

In general it may not matter in your game. If you consider that most small
ships only cost a few gold bars to build, then using build or muster will make
little difference.

- -DKE

[The Olesens]

>
>
>
> So, when you put out the call to muster certain kinds of warriors to form
> units, the only time and effort involved is in waiting for them to pack their
> stuff, get thier lives in order, show up and sign in for pay.
>

I'd say you also have to give them a quick lesson is working together and on new
tactics but that's about it

[Sythryc@aol.co]

well then, i see there should be an IQ equivalent listed for the game rather
than an age. times change but the poison remains the same. ask the navy how
long it takes to build a battleship and ask the army how long it takes to make
their flak vests.

[Solmyr]

In my PBEM, I rule that each ship is built at 1d6 GB per ROUND (well,
actually a player convinced me to adopt this rule just before he was going
to build some ships :) Each port province can build a maximum number of
ships at a time equal to its level. The reason being, ships don't take years
to construct, as long as you have the money to spare.

******************
Aleksei Andrievski
aka Solmyr, Archmage of the Azure Star
Visit the Archmage's Tower at
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Fortress/2198/index.html

[Jim Cooper]

The Olesens wrote:
> Maybe you can dig up twenty suits of plate mail that quick but building a ship can take monthes or years.<

I think its safe to assume that these purchased ships have just been
built (or nearly so), if only to make things much more simpler. Of
course, DMs are well within their rights to dissallow players from
buying ships (or armies for that matter). IMC, regents can only muster
a number of armies up to the level of their province(s) *per year*,
including ships, and only during the winter months (unless they are
mercs) - or summer months if I'm feeling nice.

Cheers,
Darren

[Jonathan Ingram]

At 01:37 PM 7/28/98 -0700, you wrote:
>I think its safe to assume that these purchased ships have just been
>built (or nearly so), if only to make things much more simpler. Of
>course, DMs are well within their rights to dissallow players from
>buying ships (or armies for that matter). IMC, regents can only muster
>a number of armies up to the level of their province(s) *per year*,
>including ships, and only during the winter months (unless they are
>mercs) - or summer months if I'm feeling nice.
That brings up an interesting issue: Can a player build a shipyard and
build ships for himself at a reduced cost, or make a profit by selling
ships to others who want to build them? Perhaps building ships is more
expensive if you don't have a shipyard. Also, shipyards have to have some
limit on the number of ships that can be built at one time.

I propose the following modification to the build action:

* Build Shipyard *
A player may spend 20GB to create a shipyard in a level 4 or higher coastal
or river province. Constuction of the shipyard proceeds at the normal rate
for construction (d6GB per turn).

Once the shipyard has been created, the owner of the shipyard can build
ships for 80% of the specified purchase cost. These ships can then be sold
to other regents at some negotiated price (possibly the purchase price).
Thus, a galleon could be built for 12GB instead of purchased for 15GB.

The shipyard is capable of constructing one tower ship, two galleons or
roundships, two caravels, or four smaller ships, or some combination
thereof at any given point in time.

That brings up two more modified domain actions:

* Build Ship *

A regent without a shipyard who wishes to build a ship instead of purchase
it can save 10% of the cost (rounded down) of purchasing the ship by
building it. This may only be done in a level 3 or higher province; only
one ship may be constructed at a time, and the regent may not construct
galleons, roundships, or tower ships.

* Muster Ships *

A regent wishing to purchase ships rather than construct them must by ships
from someone with a ship for sale; typically this is a shipyard. Ships are
usually available at list price if the customer is willing to wait for them
to be built; if the regent wishes to purchase the ships immediately, he/she
must pay an additional 25% (rounded up) of the ship's base cost (thus, a
galleon would cost 19GB instead of 15GB if purchased immediately).

Due to the constraint on shipyards production, it's unlikely that a regent
will find more than one tower ship, two galleons, four caravels, or eight
smaller vessels for sale at any given point in time that can be purchased
outright.

The regent also has the option of purchasing ships from a regent with
surplus ships. The price for these ships must be negotiated; the actual
number of ships available is likely to be much less than the number of
ships available for shipyards: one galleon, two caravels, or four smaller
ships.

Comments anyone?

Jonathan Ingram
jingram@pacifier.com

[Clayton F. Hinton]

Not only that, each suit of plate mail must be
>custom fitted to the wearer. This means that the soldiers must be present at
>least some of the time and that the regent can't "order-out" for plate mail.
> Thus, even though it is cheaper to muster a unit of elite infantry
>it is a lot more work that building a ship. It also takes about the same
>amount of time.
>
You are assuming the Lord is outfitting each and every troop with brand new
equipment. I assume this is not true, for if it was the cost to raise new
troops would be much, much, MUCH greater (as you've basically pointed out).
I think most troops of the time had their own armor and weapons, and only
some (10% or so) needed new armor/weapons. This is the only way the
relatively low cost of raising troops makes sense in BR.

- -Clay Hinton
chinton@mail.utexas.edu

[Jim Cooper]

Jonathan Ingram wrote:
The price for these ships must be
negotiated; the actual number of ships available is likely to be much
less than the number of ships available for shipyards: one galleon, two
caravels, or four smaller ships.
>
> Comments anyone?

I like this - I like it a lot. This is nearly the same as what I have
worked out (the exception is that I allow players to choose the size of
their shipyard, so that a regent who builds a 30 GB shipyard can build
up to 2 galleons, IMC -- a less than 15 GB shipyard, galleons cannot be
built). But other than that, very nicely put Jonathan. :)

Cheers,
Darren

[Aaron Sanderson]

>
>well then, i see there should be an IQ equivalent listed for the game
rather
>than an age. times change but the poison remains the same. ask the
navy how
>long it takes to build a battleship and ask the army how long it takes
to make
>their flak vests.
>************************************************** *************************
>To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the
line
>'unsubscribe birthright' as the body of the message.
>
Building a ship isn't just the time spent on the ship. You also have to
cut the trees to provide the timber and then season the wood, make/buy
the rope to help water proof it, coat the hull in tar(after you get the
tar), make the sails (need lots of good quality cloth), and wait for the
whole mess to be put together. Very time intesive.
Just a few thoughts,
AmS.

__________________________________________________ ____
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

[Gary V. Foss]

Aaron Sanderson wrote:

> Building a ship isn't just the time spent on the ship. You also have to
> cut the trees to provide the timber and then season the wood, make/buy
> the rope to help water proof it, coat the hull in tar(after you get the
> tar), make the sails (need lots of good quality cloth), and wait for the
> whole mess to be put together. Very time intesive.
> Just a few thoughts,
> AmS.

I suppose you might also have to consider the time of hiring and possibly
training a crew....

Gary

[Aaron Sanderson]

>
>Aaron Sanderson wrote:
>
>> Building a ship isn't just the time spent on the ship. You also have
to
>> cut the trees to provide the timber and then season the wood,
make/buy
>> the rope to help water proof it, coat the hull in tar(after you get
the
>> tar), make the sails (need lots of good quality cloth), and wait for
the
>> whole mess to be put together. Very time intesive.
>> Just a few thoughts,
>> AmS.
>
>I suppose you might also have to consider the time of hiring and
possibly
>training a crew....
>
>Gary
>
Besides the officers and a couple of others the rest of the crew could
just be raw recruits. You don't have to know much to work on a boat as
long as there are people who do have the knowledge. Once you learn a
couple of terms and how to tie 5 or 6 knots you could serve on a ship of
that time. Up to the mid-ninteenth century most sailors probibly didn't
know much at all when they were first 'hired'.
AmS.


__________________________________________________ ____
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

[Gary V. Foss]

Aaron Sanderson wrote:

> >I suppose you might also have to consider the time of hiring and possibly
> >training a crew....
> >
> >Gary
> >
> Besides the officers and a couple of others the rest of the crew could
> just be raw recruits. You don't have to know much to work on a boat as
> long as there are people who do have the knowledge. Once you learn a
> couple of terms and how to tie 5 or 6 knots you could serve on a ship of
> that time. Up to the mid-ninteenth century most sailors probibly didn't
> know much at all when they were first 'hired'.
> AmS.

This is very true, though I think we both know why you put "hired" in quotes
there, huh? Naval "recruitment" policies have historically been rather...
well, let's just say "demanding" shall we? :-)

Assuming that this is not the case in a fantasy setting for nations of good
alignment, it might be a tad more difficult to convince potential sailors to
hire on than filling them full of rum, sapping them over the head and piling
them onto the ship shortly before setting sail.... It could take a while to
actually get people to volunteer for this kind of duty, if one cannot use more
persuasive methods.

As for training, your absolutely right. The only really well trained people on
a ship were probably the officers and the training that they got I would
imagine was mostly of the "hands-on" type. That is, they learned most of their
skills on the job, so they probably wouldn't require much training time as part
of the process of putting a crew together. Certainly notable exceptions in
history exist, but nations that had extensive nautical traditions would
probably better be translated into BR terms as having some sort of naval
college, which would not really effect the "mustering" process of buying a
ship.

The elementary training that sailors had to have might take a couple weeks to
accomplish if they were shanghaied. Knots and vocabulary are pretty simple
(though I don't think I ever managed to earn that knot tying merit badge
myself) but it could take a few weeks before raw recruits could operate well
enough as a team for a crew to actually function on a level that most people
would consider acceptable for a fighting ship.

Gary