[BIRTHRIGHT] -Nordic elves? Where did they com

[einarh@fagerborg.vgs.n]

>I think the Nordic mythic system also features Elves, calling them "alfar",
>and Dwarves (svart-alfar), but I'm not an expert, and only know what I
>remember from books I read a LONG time ago :)

Heh.. "Alver" is a direct translation of "Elves".
and I've never heard the term "svart-alver" before...
At least in norway, elves aren't big in mythology..
We have a few kinda-like-small-elves running around near christmas to eat
some kind of rice meal we put outside our doors.
When the morning comes the "nisse" has come and eaten it up =)

I think the actual term of "Alv" has come from JRR Tolkiens books.
Which also introduced dwarves. Even though one can argue about how many
similarities there are between the dwarves and the "tusser"s.

While dwarves are definately in norwegian mythology...
we even have a song which starts like this: (roughly translated)
""Nisser" and dwarves,
builds in the mountains." (It even rhymes in norwegian =)

It seems like JRR Tolkien have picked out most of the other races from
nordic mythology, namely dwarves, trolls, ogres, giants.... ++
But the elves as they are pictured in JRR and BR, does *not* come from
nordic mythology.. (norwegian at least ;)

Well... I'm no expert in nordic mythology myself.
But if it isn't totally accurate, its darn close =)

Siebharrin the Lich

[James Ray]

Hmmm....dont ask ME, man LOL. I read it a musty old dictionary, a long
time ago, just thought I would mention it. I've got your address here at
the tail of your post, and I'll try to get back to you, if I can find the
book :) Its at my aunts house, but she is an on the road truck driver,
and I have no idea when she'll be home next. By no means are dictionaries
to be taken as authoritative sources, either, mind you :)
I just meant to suggest there might be more sources for Elves than just
Tolkien and the Celts.

- ----------
> From: einarh@fagerborg.vgs.no
> To: birthright@MPGN.COM
> Subject: Re: [BIRTHRIGHT] -Nordic elves? Where did they come from?
> Date: Sunday, July 12, 1998 10:25 AM
>
> >I think the Nordic mythic system also features Elves, calling them
"alfar",
> >and Dwarves (svart-alfar), but I'm not an expert, and only know what I
> >remember from books I read a LONG time ago :)
>
> Heh.. "Alver" is a direct translation of "Elves".
> and I've never heard the term "svart-alver" before...
> At least in norway, elves aren't big in mythology..
> We have a few kinda-like-small-elves running around near christmas to eat
> some kind of rice meal we put outside our doors.
> When the morning comes the "nisse" has come and eaten it up =)
>
> I think the actual term of "Alv" has come from JRR Tolkiens books.
> Which also introduced dwarves. Even though one can argue about how many
> similarities there are between the dwarves and the "tusser"s.
>
> While dwarves are definately in norwegian mythology...
> we even have a song which starts like this: (roughly translated)
> ""Nisser" and dwarves,
> builds in the mountains." (It even rhymes in norwegian =)
>
> It seems like JRR Tolkien have picked out most of the other races from
> nordic mythology, namely dwarves, trolls, ogres, giants.... ++
> But the elves as they are pictured in JRR and BR, does *not* come from
> nordic mythology.. (norwegian at least ;)
>
> Well... I'm no expert in nordic mythology myself.
> But if it isn't totally accurate, its darn close =)
>
> Siebharrin the Lich
>
>> To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the
line
> 'unsubscribe birthright' as the body of the message.

[Sindre Berg]

James Ray wrote:

> Hmmm....dont ask ME, man LOL. I read it a musty old dictionary, a
> long
> time ago, just thought I would mention it. I've got your address here
> at
> the tail of your post, and I'll try to get back to you, if I can find
> the
> book :) Its at my aunts house, but she is an on the road truck
> driver,
> and I have no idea when she'll be home next. By no means are
> dictionaries
> to be taken as authoritative sources, either, mind you :)
> I just meant to suggest there might be more sources for Elves than
> just
> Tolkien and the Celts.
>
> ----------
> > From: einarh@fagerborg.vgs.no
> > To: birthright@MPGN.COM
> > Subject: Re: [BIRTHRIGHT] -Nordic elves? Where did they come from?
> > Date: Sunday, July 12, 1998 10:25 AM
> >
> > >I think the Nordic mythic system also features Elves, calling them
> "alfar",
> > >and Dwarves (svart-alfar), but I'm not an expert, and only know
> what I
> > >remember from books I read a LONG time ago :)
> >
> > Heh.. "Alver" is a direct translation of "Elves".
> > and I've never heard the term "svart-alver" before...
> > At least in norway, elves aren't big in mythology..
> > We have a few kinda-like-small-elves running around near christmas
> to eat
> > some kind of rice meal we put outside our doors.
> > When the morning comes the "nisse" has come and eaten it up =)
> >
> > I think the actual term of "Alv" has come from JRR Tolkiens books.
> > Which also introduced dwarves. Even though one can argue about how
> many
> > similarities there are between the dwarves and the "tusser"s.
> >
> > While dwarves are definately in norwegian mythology...
> > we even have a song which starts like this: (roughly translated)
> > ""Nisser" and dwarves,
> > builds in the mountains." (It even rhymes in norwegian =)
> >
> > It seems like JRR Tolkien have picked out most of the other races
> from
> > nordic mythology, namely dwarves, trolls, ogres, giants.... ++
> > But the elves as they are pictured in JRR and BR, does *not* come
> from
> > nordic mythology.. (norwegian at least ;)
> >
> > Well... I'm no expert in nordic mythology myself.
> > But if it isn't totally accurate, its darn close =)
> >
> > Siebharrin the Lich
> >
> >
> *
> ************************************************** ***********************
>
> > To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with
> the
> line
> > 'unsubscribe birthright' as the body of the message.
> ************************************************** ****
> ********************
> To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the
> line
> Actually if you look at the Nordic Mythology you can read that there are
two "kind" of gods, one of them are the likes of Thor and Odin etc....
and the other is Frøya and Frøy f. inst. these are called something else
the other kind of Gods. I can't remember the name and they are difficult
to write in English anyway, but just thought I would mention it...

Sindre

[Samuel Weiss]

>Actually if you look at the Nordic Mythology you can read that there are
two "kind" of gods, one of them are the likes of Thor and Odin etc....
and the other is Frøya and Frøy f. inst. these are called something else
the other kind of Gods. I can't remember the name and they are difficult
to write in English anyway, but just thought I would mention it...<

Aesir and Vanir. Generally thought to represent two different groups of
people who mingled later in the region after early initial conflicts.
And svart-alfar are the dwarves. They tended to have different names
depending on what region a person was in, but they are all the same.
Svart-alfar interestingly have two AD&D races named/inspired by them. The
Xvarts and the Drow. That in itself should show the range of interpretations
of some of these critters.

Samwise

[Sindre Berg]

Samuel Weiss wrote:

> Aesir and Vanir. Generally thought to represent two different groups
> of
> people who mingled later in the region after early initial conflicts.
> And svart-alfar are the dwarves. They tended to have different names
> depending on what region a person was in, but they are all the same.
> Svart-alfar interestingly have two AD&D races named/inspired by them.
> The
> Xvarts and the Drow. That in itself should show the range of
> interpretations
> of some of these critters.
>
> Samwise
>
> *******
> ************************************************** *****************
> To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the
> line
> Thanks for giving me the names.... (this being a bit embarrasing
since I am an
Norwegian... though we call them Æser :) Anyway my point was that if you
look at how
the Vanir's are discribed I seem to recall they looked a bit like my
mental picture of an elf...you know delicate, not very strong, that kind
of thing....

Or I might of course be just blabbering about something I don't know the
slightest about ?

Sindre

[David Sean Brown]

>
> Actually if you look at the Nordic Mythology you can read that there are
> two "kind" of gods, one of them are the likes of Thor and Odin etc....
> and the other is Frøya and Frøy f. inst. these are called something else
> the other kind of Gods. I can't remember the name and they are difficult
> to write in English anyway, but just thought I would mention it...

I had thought that Frey and Freya were considered "faeries"..not in the
same sense as the D&D faerie (elf, sprite, etc)..if mempry serves me
correctly, their kind ruled as Gods before Odin and his lot came along,
and took up the fight against Surtur and teh giants..

Sean

[Samuel Weiss]

>though we call them Æser :) Anyway my point was that if you
look at how the Vanir's are discribed I seem to recall they looked a bit
like my
mental picture of an elf...you know delicate, not very strong, that kind
of thing....<

I have no idea how to make that cool A and E thingie with my computer, but
that is how it would be written of course.
As for the Vanir, well Frey was appointed ruler of Alfheim, so that is not a
far fetched picture in the least.

Samwise

[James Ray]

Hmmm - I had thought that ALL of the Nordic Gods had come from primeaval
ice, and had been "licked" free of it to "give it another go". Why is
mythology OTHER than Greek myths so hard to get a hold of?
- ----------
From: David Sean Brown
I had thought that Frey and Freya were considered "faeries"..not in the
same sense as the D&D faerie (elf, sprite, etc)..if mempry serves me
correctly, their kind ruled as Gods before Odin and his lot came along,
and took up the fight against Surtur and teh giants..

Sean

[James Ray]

try holding down on the ALT key, and pressing "146" on your number pad, way
over on the far right of your key board... "145" will give you the
lower-case version Æ æ

What on earth is it called, though? Thats probly why we dont have it in
OUR alphabet...one of those letters nobody knew the name to LOL
"Spell 'Æsir' "...
- ----------
> From: Samuel Weiss
> I have no idea how to make that cool A and E thingie with my computer,
but that is how it would be written of course.
> As for the Vanir, well Frey was appointed ruler of Alfheim, so that is
not a far fetched picture in the least.
>
> Samwise

[Samuel Weiss]

>Hmmm - I had thought that ALL of the Nordic Gods had come from primeaval
ice, and had been "licked" free of it to "give it another go". Why is
mythology OTHER than Greek myths so hard to get a hold of?<

Wow. Not in the least actually. Only the first one (or three depending on
which story you read. Also the identities change depending on which story,
but that is another topic.) Most of the Norse power came about the old
fashoned way-boffing. Usually with courtship rituals related to the earth
warming up and becoming fertile after the winter.
And let me see....æ cool. Took awhile but I made it work.
·Æsir are the descendants of Odin, Vili, and Ve. Spirti, Will and Holy.
And yes it is a bit more difficult to find Norse myth works. Everyone is so
caught up with the Greek/Roman one.s But ifyou want really hard, go looking
for Celtic or Egyptian sources. There is a trial

Samwise

[Sindre Berg]

Samuel Weiss wrote:

> >though we call them Æser :) Anyway my point was that if you
> look at how the Vanir's are discribed I seem to recall they looked a
> bit
> like my
> mental picture of an elf...you know delicate, not very strong, that
> kind
> of thing....<
>
> I have no idea how to make that cool A and E thingie with my computer,
> but
> that is how it would be written of course.
>

Well I find it rather easy, the letter is resting above my right shift
:-) You pronounceit like the a in bad....... (I got more cool letters
øæå :)
Well actually as far I seem to recall of my Nordic lessons from school,
the old vikings didn't use that kind of letters, they only had the runes
after all. But if we have someone from Iceland here their language is
the closest to the old Nordic, their language hasn't changed that much
since 1000 AD.

> As for the Vanir, well Frey was appointed ruler of Alfheim, so that is
> not a
> far fetched picture in the least.
>
> Samwise
>
> *******
> ************************************************** *****************
> To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the
> line
>

[Sindre Berg]

Samuel Weiss wrote:

> >Hmmm - I had thought that ALL of the Nordic Gods had come from
> primeaval
> ice, and had been "licked" free of it to "give it another go". Why is
>
> mythology OTHER than Greek myths so hard to get a hold of?<
>
> Wow. Not in the least actually. Only the first one (or three depending
> on
> which story you read. Also the identities change depending on which
> story,
> but that is another topic.) Most of the Norse power came about the old
>
> fashoned way-boffing. Usually with courtship rituals related to the
> earth
> warming up and becoming fertile after the winter.
> And let me see....æ cool. Took awhile but I made it work.
> ·Æsir are the descendants of Odin, Vili, and Ve. Spirti, Will and
> Holy.
> And yes it is a bit more difficult to find Norse myth works. Everyone
> is so
> caught up with the Greek/Roman one.s But ifyou want really hard, go
> looking
> for Celtic or Egyptian sources. There is a trial
>
> Samwise
>

That's actually rather wrong after my sources. Odin was an Æse and most
of the other gods were sons of him and Frigg.
And then it was the other "family of gods "Vanene" which Frøy and Frøya
were members of, actually they were hostages after the two God families
declared peace and sent mutual hostages to keep the peace....

Sindre

[e.piir]

>At least in norway, elves aren't big in mythology..
>We have a few kinda-like-small-elves running around near christmas to eat
>some kind of rice meal we put outside our doors.

I think that christmas and Scandinavian mythology are different things.

[Trizt]

"e.piir" wrote:
>
> >At least in norway, elves aren't big in mythology..
> >We have a few kinda-like-small-elves running around near christmas to eat
> >some kind of rice meal we put outside our doors.
>
> I think that christmas and Scandinavian mythology are different things.

In both Scandinavian (Asatro and Kalevala) mythologies there are
christmas (called jul/joulu) which have been celibrated as new year/end
of the dark period on the 24th December. there have been gifts
exchanged. as you englanders don't have another word for christmas, we
have to use that anyhow for our joulu for otherwise you wouldn't have
any clue what we are talking about.

So in a way you are right, it's nothing to do with the christian
christmas, but with christmas.


//Trizt

[Mark A Vandermeulen]

On Tue, 23 Feb 1999, Trizt wrote:

> In both Scandinavian (Asatro and Kalevala) mythologies there are
> christmas (called jul/joulu) which have been celibrated as new year/end
> of the dark period on the 24th December. there have been gifts
> exchanged. as you englanders don't have another word for christmas, we
> have to use that anyhow for our joulu for otherwise you wouldn't have
> any clue what we are talking about.
>
> So in a way you are right, it's nothing to do with the christian
> christmas, but with christmas.

Would the English word "Yule" be an appropriate translation? That's the
word for the pagan festival of year's end/longest night as it was brought
to the British Isles probably via germanic antecedents, or perhaps Danish.
I'm not sure how closely related the two mythological systems are (first
impression is fairly distant, but I have no real idea) but the term might
be more closely related to the idea you wish to convey than "christmas."

Mark VanderMeulen
vander+@pitt.edu

[Trizt]

Mark A Vandermeulen wrote:

> Would the English word "Yule" be an appropriate translation? That's the
> word for the pagan festival of year's end/longest night as it was brought
> to the British Isles probably via germanic antecedents, or perhaps Danish.
> I'm not sure how closely related the two mythological systems are (first
> impression is fairly distant, but I have no real idea) but the term might
> be more closely related to the idea you wish to convey than "christmas."

That prolly would be a better translation, but it's so unused thise days
that it can be a bit hard to remeber it and the question would be, do
all englanders know about this word?

[DKEvermore@aol.co]

In a message dated 2/23/99 12:41:13 PM Central Standard Time, trizt@iname.com
writes:

> Mark A Vandermeulen wrote:
>
> > Would the English word "Yule" be an appropriate translation? That's the
> > word for the pagan festival of year's end/longest night as it was brought
> > to the British Isles probably via germanic antecedents, or perhaps
Danish.
> > I'm not sure how closely related the two mythological systems are (first
> > impression is fairly distant, but I have no real idea) but the term might
> > be more closely related to the idea you wish to convey than "christmas."
>
> That prolly would be a better translation, but it's so unused thise days
> that it can be a bit hard to remeber it and the question would be, do
> all englanders know about this word?
>
Most should. It's printed on most American calendars anyway. Afterall, the
Isles were pagan before they were Christian! They had a great Druid tradition
prior to the arrival of Rome. Lately (this century, especially), there has
been a big revival in Brittany, Wales, Scotland and Ireland sort of
"resurrecting" ;) these old traditions. But that's another conversation,
entirely...

More on topic, I believe "elves" in fantasy literature were taken from the old
British legends of Faeries. Many of them were human sized mystical people who
sometimes mingled with the people of the "mundane" world. At least, to me it
seems more similar to British trads than Norse, Norman, or germanic.
Incidentally, Annwn (remember Tuar Annwn in Vosgaard?) & the Shadow World
appears to have been modeled after the old British (Wales contains what
remains of this culture) Annwn, also known as the Underworld. King Arthur
lead a great expedition there to recover the 12 Hallows or Treasures of
Britain. It was pretty much a disaster, but it's a great tale.

- -DKE

[Kenneth Gauck]

A friend tells me that Norse conceptions of elves may have originated in
early contacts with the Phonecians who we know to have been extracting tin
and other minerals in the north of Europe. Imagine some Nordic folks
encountering Phoncian miners, working underground and possessing a superior
technology.

KG

[Trizt]

DKEvermore@aol.com wrote:

> More on topic, I believe "elves" in fantasy literature were taken from the old
> British legends of Faeries. Many of them were human sized mystical people who
> sometimes mingled with the people of the "mundane" world. At least, to me it
> seems more similar to British trads than Norse, Norman, or germanic.
> Incidentally, Annwn (remember Tuar Annwn in Vosgaard?) & the Shadow World
> appears to have been modeled after the old British (Wales contains what
> remains of this culture) Annwn, also known as the Underworld.

If I don't be all to wrong, wasn't it Tolkien who wrote those first
Fantasy-Elves, and those where based on many things as old britt
legends, but even 18th-19th century britt belives how Finns lived and
the Finnic languages was a modle for the Tolkien elven language. What I
want to say is that the britt myths are not alone the modle for the
fantasy elves.

Don't forget that most of BR is based on the "britt" way of seeing
things and I have to say that marks 99.9% of all TSR products. It could
have been nice if TSR would hire some non-english talking people to make
a module or gameworld and then translate it to english, then you would
notice some differences.
Atleast I hope that TSR will change so much that they will adopt the
metric system for 3rd edition.

//Trizt

[prtr02@scorpion.nspco.co]

It was written:

If I don't be all to wrong, wasn't it Tolkien who wrote those first
Fantasy-Elves, and those where based on many things as old britt
legends, but even 18th-19th century britt belives how Finns lived and
the Finnic languages was a modle for the Tolkien elven language. What I
want to say is that the britt myths are not alone the modle for the
fantasy elves.

Don't forget that most of BR is based on the "britt" way of seeing
things and I have to say that marks 99.9% of all TSR products. It could
have been nice if TSR would hire some non-english talking people to make
a module or gameworld and then translate it to english, then you would
notice some differences.
Atleast I hope that TSR will change so much that they will adopt the
metric system for 3rd edition.

//Trizt- ----- End Included Message -----

The reason non-european history/folklore based RPGs aren't more common is that they don't sell.
TSR (their BR hiatus decision aside) isn't stupid when it comes to selling RPGs.

Along with BR and Ars Magica, the other best RPG of all time is the world of Tekumel; known in various incarnations as
"Empire of the Petal Throne", "Swords and Glory" or any of a half dozen Tsolyani (a country on Tekumel) names which I won't attempt to spell here. The various cultures of the world aren't based on the traditional western european mythos. It would help to have a guide (ie an experienced player/DM) to show you the culture, but the printed material, though rare, is very complete. If you ever have the chance to play/purchase this trully unique game do so!

Randax

[the Falcon]

> Atleast I hope that TSR will change so much that they will adopt the
> metric system for 3rd edition.

I'd be so relieved if they did. Sure, I know that one pound is circa
0.4536 kilograms and that an inch is approximately 2.54 cm, and that a
foot and a yard are about 30.48 cm and 91.44 respectively, but it's just
not the same...

[brandes]

- -----Original Message-----
From: the Falcon
To: birthright@mpgn.com
Date: Thursday, February 25, 1999 9:37 AM
Subject: Re: [BIRTHRIGHT] -Nordic elves? Where did they come from?


>> Atleast I hope that TSR will change so much that they will adopt the
>> metric system for 3rd edition.
>
>I'd be so relieved if they did. Sure, I know that one pound is circa
>0.4536 kilograms and that an inch is approximately 2.54 cm, and that a
>foot and a yard are about 30.48 cm and 91.44 respectively, but it's just
>not the same...


Why would they change to a modern system if we're still talking about the
medieval period? The first country to adopt the metric system in RL was
France, shortly after the Revolution in 1789. The medieval period, which I
ASSUME to be the historical focus of fantasy games, ended in 1492 with the
discovery of the New World. The Renaissance is also the focus of many
campaigns; this period ended in what, the middle of the 1600's? TSR would
create a gross anachronism if they were to do so. (As well as confusing
Americans such as myself, who form the larger part of their customer base
(no offense to the Europeans on this list . . .)) The metric system is a
scientific system, plain and simple. The Middle Ages and Renaissance were
not eras of modern science.

Balthasar

[Pieter Sleijpen]

e.piir wrote:
>
> >At least in norway, elves aren't big in mythology..
> >We have a few kinda-like-small-elves running around near christmas to eat
> >some kind of rice meal we put outside our doors.
>
> I think that christmas and Scandinavian mythology are different
> things.

Aren't we talking about brownies here? In the Netherlands we call all
the faeries "elf-jes" and we do not make much difference between all the
different kinds.

Pieter Sleijpen

[Pieter Sleijpen]

the Falcon wrote:
>
> > Atleast I hope that TSR will change so much that they will adopt the
> > metric system for 3rd edition.
>
> I'd be so relieved if they did. Sure, I know that one pound is circa
> 0.4536 kilograms and that an inch is approximately 2.54 cm, and that a
> foot and a yard are about 30.48 cm and 91.44 respectively, but it's just
> not the same...
>

Well, I can work with inches, feet and yards. It is Fahrenheit that
poses larger problems, since it is not that easy to change into Celcius.
Not to mention that I lack absolutely any feeling about how hot 70
degrees Fahrenheit is.

Pieter Sleijpen

[the Falcon]

> Well, I can work with inches, feet and yards. It is Fahrenheit that
> poses larger problems, since it is not that easy to change into Celcius.
> Not to mention that I lack absolutely any feeling about how hot 70
> degrees Fahrenheit is.

Oh, I couldn't agree more. They can keep with their pounds, stones,
inches, feet and yards, for all I care. Heck, they can stick with all of
their different miles as well, if they really need to. But if they could
just please switch to Celcius, cause that's really the one that always
proves to be a major headache. Not only is conversion from Fahrenheit to
Celcius a complete pain the butt, the whole Fahrenheit system also seems
highly illogical to me. I mean, 0 degrees Celcius is when water freezes
and 100 degrees Celcius is when it boils, but with Fahrenheit I really
haven't got a clue. Thank you for reminding me, Pieter (Sleijpen, that
is).

- the Falcon

[the Falcon]

> Aren't we talking about brownies here? In the Netherlands we call all
> the faeries "elf-jes" and we do not make much difference between all the
> different kinds.

Yeah heck, it's all just 'elfjes' (literally: little elves) and
'kabouters' (gnomes, brownies, leprechauns, what have you; just dump em
together) around here. Who can tell the difference, anyways, between
creatures you've never even seen? :)

[DKEvermore@aol.co]

In a message dated 2/25/99 3:03:54 PM Central Standard Time,
brandes@gateway.net writes:

> The metric system is a
> scientific system, plain and simple. The Middle Ages and Renaissance were
> not eras of modern science.
>
> Balthasar

Your statement is correct, of course. But, I would point out that Birthright
is not in any way, shape or form, historical. It has historical elements, but
remains a work of fiction.

Using a metric system may increase usability. This would mean more
roleplayers. It could also mean that it would be easier for metric people to
visualize and imagine the make-believe world of Birthright.

Just some notes,
DKE

[brandes]

- -----Original Message-----
From: Pieter Sleijpen
To: birthright@mpgn.com
Date: Friday, February 26, 1999 10:39 AM
Subject: Re: [BIRTHRIGHT] -Nordic elves? Where did they come from?


>the Falcon wrote:
>>
>> > Atleast I hope that TSR will change so much that they will adopt the
>> > metric system for 3rd edition.
>>
>> I'd be so relieved if they did. Sure, I know that one pound is circa
>> 0.4536 kilograms and that an inch is approximately 2.54 cm, and that a
>> foot and a yard are about 30.48 cm and 91.44 respectively, but it's just
>> not the same...
>>
>
>Well, I can work with inches, feet and yards. It is Fahrenheit that
>poses larger problems, since it is not that easy to change into Celcius.
>Not to mention that I lack absolutely any feeling about how hot 70
>degrees Fahrenheit is.
>
>Pieter Sleijpen
>
Any good Georgian (such as myself) will tell you that 70 F is a gift from
God in the summer and the average for spring and fall. That doesn't help
you, though . . .
This might help: On the C scale, water is liquid from 0 to 100 degrees.
Fahrenheit, water is liquid from 32 to 212. So try to shift a 100 pt. scale
onto a 180 pt scale . . . 70 degrees is warm room temperature.
Brandes

[brandes]

>> The metric system is a
>> scientific system, plain and simple. The Middle Ages and Renaissance
were
>> not eras of modern science.
>>
>> Balthasar
>
>Your statement is correct, of course. But, I would point out that
Birthright
>is not in any way, shape or form, historical. It has historical elements,
but
>remains a work of fiction.
>
>Using a metric system may increase usability. This would mean more
>roleplayers. It could also mean that it would be easier for metric people
to
>visualize and imagine the make-believe world of Birthright.
>
>Just some notes,
>DKE


Okay, yeah, it would increase usability for Canadians, Europeans, and anyone
else who isn't American. I just bet, though, that TSR sells more within the
US than outside. Converting to metric (as per the new Alternity system,
which really is a domain of science) would make the things as hard for
American role-players as they are right now for people who wish they were
American.

Brandes
Should
Not
Sign
His
Name
To
This

[Kenneth Gauck]

>Not to mention that I lack absolutely any feeling about how hot 70
>degrees Fahrenheit is.

Room tempreture. My home thermostat is set to 70 degrees.

[DKEvermore@aol.co]

In a message dated 2/26/99 10:15:43 AM Central Standard Time,
m.m.richert@twi.tudelft.nl writes:

> I mean, 0 degrees Celcius is when water freezes
> and 100 degrees Celcius is when it boils, but with Fahrenheit I really
> haven't got a clue. Thank you for reminding me, Pieter (Sleijpen, that
> is).
>
> - the Falcon
>
Here's that god-forsaken formula:

F = 32 + (9/5)C

or

C = (F - 32)/(5/9)

Now! I have poisoned thine eyes! BWAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAaaaaaaaa ::cough,
cough::

- -Dustin "The Sadist" Evemore

[Trizt]

brandes wrote:

> Why would they change to a modern system if we're still talking about the
> medieval period?
For the most of ous do use it, with other words it would make it easier
for both DM and player to know distances and weights.
If you would use the "inch-system", then a feet would be quite different
in each village, so using a standardizied feet size would be quite
unmedieval (yeah there where standards during this time based on the
kings body, but he couldn't be in everyplace while people made
messurments).

> As well as confusing
> Americans such as myself, who form the larger part of their customer base
What do you think your inches feets and miles are, don't forget that
americans are quite few compared to how many lives on this planet and
most of ous do youe the metric system.
I think I can agree on that Americans are the largest groupe within the
AD&D customers, but if we look at those who use the metric system or
not, then the balance is to the other way.

//Trizt

[Pieter Sleijpen]

DKEvermore@aol.com wrote:
>
> In a message dated 2/26/99 10:15:43 AM Central Standard Time,
> m.m.richert@twi.tudelft.nl writes:
>
> > I mean, 0 degrees Celcius is when water freezes
> > and 100 degrees Celcius is when it boils, but with Fahrenheit I really
> > haven't got a clue. Thank you for reminding me, Pieter (Sleijpen, that
> > is).
> >
> > - the Falcon
> >
> Here's that god-forsaken formula:
>
> F = 32 + (9/5)C
>
> or
>
> C = (F - 32)/(5/9)
>
> Now! I have poisoned thine eyes! BWAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAaaaaaaaa ::cough,
> cough::

Thank you, but I al ready have got the formula somewhere in my
mathemathic books. But I do not like to get my calculator when ever I am
preparing published adventures or reading rulebooks. With feet I can at
least average it to 3' in 1 meter, or 1 mile is 1,5 km. I simply lack
any feeling on Fahrenheit (though your way to measure litres and the
like also doesn't come natural to me).

Pieter

[the Falcon]

> Okay, yeah, it would increase usability for Canadians, Europeans, and anyone
> else who isn't American. I just bet, though, that TSR sells more within the
> US than outside. Converting to metric (as per the new Alternity system,
> which really is a domain of science) would make the things as hard for
> American role-players as they are right now for people who wish they were
> American.

IIRC (and correct me if I'm wrong) TSR originally concentrated itself
mostly on the American market (ie the consumers in the USA). However,
didn't WotC decide that in the "new" TSR, 60% or more (my memory is vague
on that matter) is to be gained from export (to Europe in particular)? It
was in an official letter from WotC I once read in my local gaming store.
If anyone can be more specific on the matter, go right ahead.

[the Falcon]

> Here's that god-forsaken formula:
>
> F = 32 + (9/5)C
>
> or
>
> C = (F - 32)/(5/9)

Thank you for the formula, I appreciate it (especially since I always have
a hard time locatin it).
However, as you can clearly see from this formula, it is pretty dificult
to make a quick estimate of the temperature in Celcius when it is given in
Fahrenheit - the main reason why I would really appreciate it if AD&D had
it's temperatures in degrees Celcius.

- the Falcon

[the Falcon]

> Thank you, but I al ready have got the formula somewhere in my
> mathemathic books. But I do not like to get my calculator when ever I am
> preparing published adventures or reading rulebooks. With feet I can at
> least average it to 3' in 1 meter, or 1 mile is 1,5 km. I simply lack
> any feeling on Fahrenheit (though your way to measure litres and the
> like also doesn't come natural to me).

Oh yeah, those awful gallons and pints. I know one of em is about 4
litres, but don't ask me which one. I have to look up those all the time
when they're mentioned. Come to that, there's even more horrific
measurements in use, some of which I can't even remember their names,
right now. Ounces, anyone? Brrrrrr... *shiver*

- the Falcon

[DKEvermore@aol.co]

In a message dated 3/1/99 6:20:09 AM Central Standard Time,
m.m.richert@twi.tudelft.nl writes:

> Oh yeah, those awful gallons and pints. I know one of em is about 4
> litres, but don't ask me which one. I have to look up those all the time
> when they're mentioned. Come to that, there's even more horrific
> measurements in use, some of which I can't even remember their names,
> right now. Ounces, anyone? Brrrrrr... *shiver*
>
> - the Falcon
>
Here ya go:

1 gallon = 13.2 liters (you may say litres)
1 ounce = 21 kilometers
1 mile = 2 meters
1 yard = 1 decaliter

That should clear things up. BWAHAHAHAHAHA
- -DKE

[brandes]

>Oh yeah, those awful gallons and pints. I know one of em is about 4
>litres, but don't ask me which one. I have to look up those all the time
>when they're mentioned. Come to that, there's even more horrific
>measurements in use, some of which I can't even remember their names,
>right now. Ounces, anyone? Brrrrrr... *shiver*
>
> - the Falcon


A liter (I really don't care HOW you spell it) extremely close to a quart.
4 quarts is a gallon. 2 pints make a quart (I think; Americans measure
nothing in pints, aside from blood donated to the Red Cross.) and four cups
make a pint. I hope I got that right.
A pound is 16 ounces. A gallon of water weighs 8 lbs. A "pint's a pound,
the world around." That's one a' them pneumatic devices. (Before anyone
corrects that last sentence, IT WAS A JOKE.)

Brandes

[the Falcon]

> Here ya go:
>
> 1 gallon = 13.2 liters (you may say litres)
> 1 ounce = 21 kilometers
> 1 mile = 2 meters
> 1 yard = 1 decaliter

*lmao* Very nice. But no thanks. :)

[the Falcon]

> A liter (I really don't care HOW you spell it) extremely close to a quart.

I really wouldn't know how you spell it in English. In my own language,
it's simply "liter". I guess it would be "litre" in England and "liter"
in the US, like with "centre" and "center".

> 4 quarts is a gallon. 2 pints make a quart (I think; Americans measure
> nothing in pints, aside from blood donated to the Red Cross.) and four cups
> make a pint. I hope I got that right.
> A pound is 16 ounces. A gallon of water weighs 8 lbs. A "pint's a pound,
> the world around." That's one a' them pneumatic devices. (Before anyone
> corrects that last sentence, IT WAS A JOKE.)

What a weird measurement system indeed. But thank you for tryin to clear
it up for me.

- the Falcon