Whipping up on Rhoube

[Clayton F. Hinton]

>He'd say great and maybe try to steal Rhuobe's province for himself while
>letting Boeruine do all the fighting. He would not attack Boeruine.

Why on earth not? Boeruine and Avanil have made war on one another for
centuries, and this would be an excellent opportunity to make Boeruine
suffer. Besides, because Boeruine knows this he would never stick his neck
out anyway, which helps explain why Rhoube is still around. One might say,
that the more powerful Rhoube gets, the more likely a viable alliance would
form to cast him down a few notches.

>If he
>attacked Boeruine he'd annoy every othre human realm in Anuire, and prove
>himself unworthy of the Iron Throne (supporting the enemies of >humankind).

This problem can be easily rectified by invading just AFTER Boerine
finishes his little war with that pesky elf, for better or for worse. And
invading during the attack on Rhoube would not be so dastardly, since
Boerine is not well-respected in Anuire anyway. As for annoying every
other human realm in Anuire, he's already done that, and the Chamberlain
does not think he's worthy anyway. Duke Avan will get the Iron Throne just
as soon as he has the force necessary to do so.

>You don't backstab people who are fighting your racial enemies. To put this
>in real world terms, what you just proposed is Iraq invading Syria, when
>Syria is busy with a war with Israel.

This scenario is equivelant to Medoere invading the Spiderfel; Medoere
would deserve to get creamed for performing such a stupid act of agression.

It doesn't happen because Iraq
>backstabbing Syria in such a fashion would result in every other Islamic
>state going out of their way to hose Iraq.

Every one huh? Perhaps you belong in the US State department, not on this
discussion list. The ability to simplify such a complicated region is
worth its weight in plutonium.

>Rhuobe is a threat to all the human domains in the vicinity. If not, over
>the past 5 centuries, somebody would have put together an alliance to
>destroy him. Why? because the succesful destruction of such a major
>awnsheglien would likely put whoever accomplished it either on the fast
>track to, or if they were already close (Avan, Boeruine, Ghoere) on the
throne.

Your wording is a bit confusing here: first you say Rhoube is a threat,
then you say that if he were not, someone would have put together an
alliance to crush him.

Why would someone who is not a threat be worth crushing by an alliance?
And how could the person who accomplished this be in a better position to
gain the Iron Throne, if Rhoubhe were not a threat? To my knowledge, just
killing Awnsheglien is not enough to put you on the Iron Throne.

I believe that, if Rhoube were more of a threat, he would have the
neiboring human realms allied against him more often, just for survival's
sake. This, in turn, would put him in more unwinnable situations, which
would reduce his power, and put him in the same position he is in now.

- -Clay

[Tim Nutting]

Rhuobe is still around because he can't be touched. You invade his realm
and he knows immediately. He can expertly stage an ambush ANYWHERE in his
domain, and simply finding Ruannoch in that mass of dense wood is nearly
impossible.

Rhuobe also still has allies across the continent. Every year he gains new
elves to replace lost ones, new faces to fight the hated humans, and he has
the power of flight. Ruannoch supports a host of 60 flying mounts and the
riders to go with them. Those are at least three war cards right there,
and nearly immune to most other cards. Those with the Manslayer fight
because they are idealists, not because they are looking for money, so he
doesn't need as much, or even need to make as much. How many of them
follow him because he's an 18th level fighter?

Aside from all that, where do his magic portals lead to? In Sword and
Crown the heroes reach Ruannoch through an underground complex that
contains an ancient magical portal that whisks them away from any corner of
Cerilia to Rhuobe. If that exists, where else might they exist, and where
do they lead, who can he touch? Who can he kill with the right espionage
action, or if you want, the right adventure. If the Manslayer wants to
kill a man, whats to say he won't do it himself, or even summon a demon to
do it for him. I certainly think he can cast "Ensnarement" and task the
unlucky sod to go after any Cerilian regent.

the Elf will live until some stupid sod actually manages to reach his most
sacred citadel and best him in combat. Until that day Rhuobe manslayer
will live to trouble the lands of men for all time.

Tim

[Pieter A de Jong]

This is a reply to a message by Clayton F. Hinton. I am going to go through
this point by point in an attempt to clarify my position. For those who
haven't been paying attention, this thread started with a discussion between
myself and Randax about whether the Elves or Humans had magical superiority,
especially WRT # of mages. I suggested that Rhuobe would have died long ago
if the Elves didn't have some edge.

At 01:55 PM 6/25/98 -0500, Clayton F. Hinton wrote:

>
>>He'd say great and maybe try to steal Rhuobe's province for himself while
>>letting Boeruine do all the fighting. He would not attack Boeruine.
>
>Why on earth not? Boeruine and Avanil have made war on one another for
>centuries, and this would be an excellent opportunity to make Boeruine
>suffer. Besides, because Boeruine knows this he would never stick his neck
>out anyway, which helps explain why Rhoube is still around. One might say,
>that the more powerful Rhoube gets, the more likely a viable alliance would
>form to cast him down a few notches.
>
>>If he
>>attacked Boeruine he'd annoy every othre human realm in Anuire, and prove
>>himself unworthy of the Iron Throne (supporting the enemies of >humankind).
>
>This problem can be easily rectified by invading just AFTER Boerine
>finishes his little war with that pesky elf, for better or for worse. And
>invading during the attack on Rhoube would not be so dastardly, since
>Boerine is not well-respected in Anuire anyway. As for annoying every
>other human realm in Anuire, he's already done that, and the Chamberlain
>does not think he's worthy anyway. Duke Avan will get the Iron Throne just
>as soon as he has the force necessary to do so.
>
Alright no, Avan is not universally disliked by every other realm in Anuire.
Like it or not, he has friends, otherwise he wouldn't be a contender for the
Iron Throne. No one domain in Anuire has the power to take the Iron Throne
without supporting alliances.
As for Boeruine being not well respected, Boeruine will make friends
attacking the Manslayer. Why? because the Manslayer has been massacring
people for 100's of years in central Anuire. The Manslayer raids all the
domains surrounding his province. Therefore attacking the Manslayer makes
you friends, specifically the domains the Manslayer raids (Note that Avanil
is one of these domains), and all the other domains who have been victimized
by the Manslayers political machinations. See for example the adventure
Sword and Crown.
Also note, that Avan could prove himself worthy of the Iron Throne by being
a good ruler. The Chamberlain hasn't written him off, he just want's proof
that whoever he sponsors for the throne will be a good emperor.


>>You don't backstab people who are fighting your racial enemies. To put this
>>in real world terms, what you just proposed is Iraq invading Syria, when
>>Syria is busy with a war with Israel.
>
>This scenario is equivelant to Medoere invading the Spiderfel; Medoere
>would deserve to get creamed for performing such a stupid act of agression.
>
If Medoere invaded with inadequate forces and support, sure it would be
stupid. Otherwise it would be a good idea if they could pull it off. It
would a) stop the Spider from attacking them if they pulled it off, b)
acquire them a new province, c) make friends with the other domains the
spider raids.

>It doesn't happen because Iraq
>>backstabbing Syria in such a fashion would result in every other Islamic
>>state going out of their way to hose Iraq.
>
>Every one huh? Perhaps you belong in the US State department, not on this
>discussion list. The ability to simplify such a complicated region is
>worth its weight in plutonium.
>
This particular case is pretty simple. The arab states (used to) in general
dislike Israel. Although Syria and Iraq have quarreled over water rights
before, they allow each other to settle external quarrels before internal
ones, just like a family. They may argue internally, but to the outside
world, they try and present a united front.

>>Rhuobe is a threat to all the human domains in the vicinity. If not, over
>>the past 5 centuries, somebody would have put together an alliance to
>>destroy him. Why? because the succesful destruction of such a major
>>awnsheglien would likely put whoever accomplished it either on the fast
>>track to, or if they were already close (Avan, Boeruine, Ghoere) on the
>throne.
>
>Your wording is a bit confusing here: first you say Rhoube is a threat,
>then you say that if he were not, someone would have put together an
>alliance to crush him.
>
That's right, if he wasn't able to effectively protect himself against
military force, his province would have been over run by now.

>Why would someone who is not a threat be worth crushing by an alliance?
>And how could the person who accomplished this be in a better position to
>gain the Iron Throne, if Rhoubhe were not a threat? To my knowledge, just
>killing Awnsheglien is not enough to put you on the Iron Throne.
>
Killing a mad elven awnsheglien who raids the Anuirean heartlands regularly,
and whose political manipulations always attempt to cause damage to Anuire
in general. Let's see, which political groups would this gain you favor
with? a) The anti-elven racists b) All the churches, which don't like the
spawn of Azrai running free (after all, this is the spawn of the predecessor
gods' great enemies) c) it impresses the chamberlain who is looking for a
ruler with the good of all Anuire in mind d) it buys you political favors
from all the domains he regularly raids e) Succesfully attacking the enemies
of humanity will make you popular with the masses. Is that enough political
reasons to kill him?

>I believe that, if Rhoube were more of a threat, he would have the
>neiboring human realms allied against him more often, just for survival's
>sake. This, in turn, would put him in more unwinnable situations, which
>would reduce his power, and put him in the same position he is in now.
>
All right, the original point of this thread was that Rhuobe needs some sort
of an edge for his domain to survive, compared to the human military forces
arrayed against him. You suggest that he is not killed for political
reasons involving other human domains attacking those that attack Rhuobe.
As the above discussion suggests, I find this view unconvincing. If the
Manslayer's Domain does not have the physical capability, someone would have
chased him out at sometime!

Pieter A de Jong
Graduate Mechanical Engineering Student
University of Saskatchewan, Saskatoon, Canada

[pwrobel@colba.ne]

>
>Alright no, Avan is not universally disliked by every other realm in Anuire.
>Like it or not, he has friends, otherwise he wouldn't be a contender for the
>Iron Throne. No one domain in Anuire has the power to take the Iron Throne
>without supporting alliances.
>As for Boeruine being not well respected, Boeruine will make friends
>attacking the Manslayer. Why? because the Manslayer has been massacring
>people for 100's of years in central Anuire. The Manslayer raids all the
>domains surrounding his province. Therefore attacking the Manslayer makes
>you friends, specifically the domains the Manslayer raids (Note that Avanil
>is one of these domains), and all the other domains who have been victimized
>by the Manslayers political machinations. See for example the adventure
>Sword and Crown.
>Also note, that Avan could prove himself worthy of the Iron Throne by being
>a good ruler. The Chamberlain hasn't written him off, he just want's proof
>that whoever he sponsors for the throne will be a good emperor.
>
>Only Avanil really has other nations supporting his bid to become emperor ,
Boeruine has Talinie but that alliance is more like : " Please Boeruine
don't invade , we can become your vassal instead .. " Ghoere has Osoerde but
if I were one of those 2 , I wouldn't trust the other 1 bit . Mhoried has
friends , but he doesn't have the ambition to become the Emperor .

Phil
>

[Trizt]

On 26-Jun-98, Tim Nutting (zero@wiredweb.com) wrote about Re: [BIRTHRIGHT] -
Whipping up on Rhoube:

- ->the Elf will live until some stupid sod actually manages to reach his most
- ->sacred citadel and best him in combat. Until that day Rhuobe manslayer
- ->will live to trouble the lands of men for all time.
Don't forget that if he would die by a humans hand, then he will be declared
matyr (spl?), and a high number of elves will revenge his death (not only his
former followers, but those who in silence did agree with his methods). There
is nothing which says that the High Mage Aelies wouldn't revenge his distant
"relative" and this would happen and one or all the elven realms in Anuire
would launch an attack against the humans, then I wouldn't want to be one of
the humans. Don't forget that the Balck Prince will take advantige of the
situation of the happening, what ever would occure after a such unlikely
happining as the death of Rhuobe (maybe the Black Prince has an
"Rhuobe-look-a-like-flesh-golem" which can step in if this hero would die).

//Trizt of Ward^RITE

-

[Tim Nutting]

> happining as the death of Rhuobe (maybe the Black Prince has an
> "Rhuobe-look-a-like-flesh-golem" which can step in if this hero would
die).

Simalcrum is also lots of fun. I had my players questing after the
destruction of a lich, their first one in Al-Qadim. They got to the end of
this massive fight, battled the lich and won, and were then surprised by
the fact that the rotting corpse began to melt like ice, because it was.

Then the lich came out....



Tim

[Tim Nutting]

Does the elven race as a whole really follow the whole Good/Evil war? You
see, to me they seem much more inclined to favor the Law/Chaos aspect of
the grand battle of ethos'. You'll note that the alignment restrictions
for the elves prohibits lawful alignments.

Deismaar was not all that long ago, nor was the human invasion of the elven
homelands. That the elves could't win before cannot be questioned - the
largest problem for them was, as the books point out, the magic of clerics.
Their fights up to this point had been against humanoids who, at best,
could manage a few illusions and maybe, just maybe a single /cure light
wounds/. But they've had 1,500 years to prepare.

Rhuobe himself consorts with otherplanar entities. We know he's evil, but
he's shifting towar law. As NE, he has the greatest lattitude for a
summoner, he can call devils, demons, and yugoloths with equinamity. With
1.5 millenium to work it out (and the elven predisposition for chaos) they
should easily pick up on the idea that they too can acquire allies from the
Beyond, the Demons (or Tanar'ri). Yes, it is evil, but hey, who ever
accused the /ghallie sidhe/ of being concerned over good and evil.

1500 years, in which at least a tenth of your army fought the ancestorsof
the new enemy, and have lost none of their edge. Thats a long time to
prepare strategies.

Another element, whose to say the humans work together? The human race's
biggest weakness is our innability to cooperate when our own best interests
our on the chopping block. If Mhoried and Elinie actually got involved in
a war with the Sielwode, do you think Ghoere would help them out? No...
Tael would take advantage of the situation and turn on Roesone or Aerenwe,
probably enlisting Osoerde's help to do it with too.

By the time the Mhor hears about Tael's latest conquests, its too late for
him to do much of anything but say "damn"

How bout Dhoesone getting in a fight with Tuarhievel? Cariel would send
aid to Dhoesone if their pigs could fly there. Cariel hates Dhoesone, so
hey, why not take a chunk ourselves, and just what would Thurazor and the
Five Peaks do?

The elves have another 1500 years to take back all of Cerilia, if they get
a leader who is wise enought to pull it off, it could happen.

Any good warrior will know that the best time to strike is when your enemy
is least prepared for you.

Well...
way too late to keep thinking about this.....
l8r
Tim

[Pieter A de Jong]

At 01:58 PM 6/26/98 -0700, Tim Nutting wrote:
>Rhuobe is still around because he can't be touched. You invade his realm
>and he knows immediately. He can expertly stage an ambush ANYWHERE in his
>domain, and simply finding Ruannoch in that mass of dense wood is nearly
>impossible.
>
Congratulations on your ability to stage ambushes in the woods. This thread
started on the basis of Rhuobe getting whipped because Randax says that the
humans severely overpower the elves in magical terms, cause humans wizards
are better than elven wizards and the elves don't have priests. I oppose
this point of view, I say that elven wizards can match human priests and
wizards/magicians combined. If not, the invasion of Rhuobe goes something
like this. 1) Use magical superiority to enforce @1 month dry spell in high
summer. 2) During this dry spell, cut and plough firebreaks in my lands
adjoining Rhuobe. Move army units up and mages/priests to support this
activity. 3) After dry spell, use catapults to set fire to elven woods 4)
watch Elven woods burn for @ 1 month, preventing any magical attempts to
break the dry spell. 5) Invade the remaining ash covered plains, with 3-1 +
numerical superiority. 6) Win and dig-in to hold the land.


>Rhuobe also still has allies across the continent. Every year he gains new
>elves to replace lost ones, new faces to fight the hated humans, and he has
>the power of flight. Ruannoch supports a host of 60 flying mounts and the
>riders to go with them. Those are at least three war cards right there,
>and nearly immune to most other cards. Those with the Manslayer fight
>because they are idealists, not because they are looking for money, so he
>doesn't need as much, or even need to make as much. How many of them
>follow him because he's an 18th level fighter?

1) He doesn't have that many allies. The elven nations are outnumbered, and
because of Randaxian 'Human Magical Superiority' can't afford to send him
troops.
2) See human magical superiority in point 1 above. If elves can raise
flying units, so can humans
3) He's a 14th level fighter. Fighters get followers once at Name level.
Everybody gets the same number of them (about 1 unit). Given the # of name
level human fighters around him, this doesn't give him an edge.


>
>Aside from all that, where do his magic portals lead to? In Sword and
>Crown the heroes reach Ruannoch through an underground complex that
>contains an ancient magical portal that whisks them away from any corner of
>Cerilia to Rhuobe. If that exists, where else might they exist, and where
>do they lead, who can he touch? Who can he kill with the right espionage
>action, or if you want, the right adventure. If the Manslayer wants to
>kill a man, whats to say he won't do it himself, or even summon a demon to
>do it for him. I certainly think he can cast "Ensnarement" and task the
>unlucky sod to go after any Cerilian regent.
>
See also Randaxian magical superiority argument. IF Randax is correct, he's
gor more to worry about than his opposite numbers. A summoned Marid might
give him a very hard time.

>the Elf will live until some stupid sod actually manages to reach his most
>sacred citadel and best him in combat. Until that day Rhuobe manslayer
>will live to trouble the lands of men for all time.
>
>Tim
Good luck to the stupid sod. He's gonna need it!

>************************************************** *************************
>>'unsubscribe birthright' as the body of the message.
>

Pieter A de Jong
Graduate Mechanical Engineering Student
University of Saskatchewan, Saskatoon, Canada

[Trizt]

On 28-Jun-98, Clayton F. Hinton (chinton@mail.utexas.edu) wrote about Re:
[BIRTHRIGHT] - Whipping up on Rhoube:

- ->>What ever happens when Rhoube dies, many humans will loose their lives.

- ->Ooohh...I'm scared. At worst, for every 5 humans that die, 1 elf will die.
- -> At least then the humans would come out ahead in the end population-wise.
- ->Understand now why the elves can't win? Understand now why the elves won't
- ->all follow Rhoubhe the Awnsheigh into thier own demise? They have not the
- ->potential to win against humanity, because they are not any more
- ->well-organized than the human realms are. Infighting is not a disease
- ->elves are immune to.

As I did state in my previous mail, if Rhoube dies and no Elven realm starts a
"revenge war", humans will die as Avan and Aeric _WILL_ start a war against
eachother as soon as they hear that the Manhunter has died. The fight for the
throne of Anuire will depopulate most of the human lands.


//Trizt of Ward^RITE

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[Trizt]

On 29-Jun-98, Tim Nutting (zero@wiredweb.com) wrote about Re: [BIRTHRIGHT] -
Whipping up on Rhoube:

- ->Deismaar was not all that long ago, nor was the human invasion of the elven
- ->homelands. That the elves could't win before cannot be questioned - the
- ->largest problem for them was, as the books point out, the magic of clerics.
- -> Their fights up to this point had been against humanoids who, at best,
- ->could manage a few illusions and maybe, just maybe a single /cure light
- ->wounds/. But they've had 1,500 years to prepare.
Don't forget that in those days you didn't have realmspells either. I know
that some of the elven mages don't think it's proper to use realm spells.

- ->Rhuobe himself consorts with otherplanar entities
- ->summoner, he can call devils, demons, and yugoloths with equinamity.
yeppz

- ->1500 years, in which at least a tenth of your army fought the ancestorsof
- ->the new enemy, and have lost none of their edge. Thats a long time to
- ->prepare strategies.
Depends from whoms point of view, for elves that may be not more than a week
would seem to be for a human.

- ->Another element, whose to say the humans work together? The human race's
- ->biggest weakness is our innability to cooperate when our own best interests
- ->our on the chopping block. If Mhoried and Elinie actually got involved in
- ->a war with the Sielwode, do you think Ghoere would help them out? No...
- ->Tael would take advantage of the situation and turn on Roesone or Aerenwe,
- ->probably enlisting Osoerde's help to do it with too.
I have to agree


- ->How bout Dhoesone getting in a fight with Tuarhievel? Cariel would send
- ->aid to Dhoesone if their pigs could fly there. Cariel hates Dhoesone, so
- ->hey, why not take a chunk ourselves, and just what would Thurazor and the
- ->Five Peaks do?
At the moment I don't think that Bhoesone would get in a war with Tuarhievel,
it's more or less an Tuarhievelian satelite state.

- ->The elves have another 1500 years to take back all of Cerilia, if they get
- ->a leader who is wise enought to pull it off, it could happen.
Maybe a Shadow-elf will stepp out from the Shadow world ;)



//Trizt of Ward^RITE

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Nick : Trizt IRC: lib.hel.fi Channel: #Opers
MUD: callandor.imaginary.com 5317
--------------------
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--------------------

[Clayton F. Hinton]

>->The elves have another 1500 years to take back all of Cerilia, if they get
>->a leader who is wise enought to pull it off, it could happen.
>Maybe a Shadow-elf will stepp out from the Shadow world ;)
>
>
That's no more likely than an heir to the Roele line suddenly appearing on
the Iron Throne to re-unite Anuire. Sheesh, I just don't get the
anti-human sentiment from you people. Humans are the center of activity in
Anuire, because they are the most powerful group, even as a ruined empire.
I'm simply amazed that some of you refuse to accept that fact.

- -Clay
chinton@mail.utexas.edu

[Clayton F. Hinton]

>
>As I did state in my previous mail, if Rhoube dies and no Elven realm
starts a
>"revenge war", humans will die as Avan and Aeric _WILL_ start a war against
>eachother as soon as they hear that the Manhunter has died. The fight for the
>throne of Anuire will depopulate most of the human lands.
>
So says you! I have a very had time believing that one; the folly of such
a long, drawn-out war is obvious, particularly to experienced, savvy rulers
like Boerine and Avanil. If neither of them had a clear advantage,
fighting would be pretty dumb from a strategic standpoint. I just don't
see Rhoubhe's death being a catalyst for such a war for the Iron Crown,
involving most of Anuire. More like an excuse for unison of humans
regardless of allegiances.

- -Clay

[David Sean Brown]

> So says you! I have a very had time believing that one; the folly of such
> a long, drawn-out war is obvious, particularly to experienced, savvy rulers
> like Boerine and Avanil. If neither of them had a clear advantage,
> fighting would be pretty dumb from a strategic standpoint. I just don't
> see Rhoubhe's death being a catalyst for such a war for the Iron Crown,
> involving most of Anuire. More like an excuse for unison of humans
> regardless of allegiances.
>
Just to use a published example,l Boeruine's ancestor fought just such a
war against Michael Roele, both of whom were "experienced, savvy rulers".
SImply being a good ruler, doesn't in any way detract from the desire to
have more power, in this case the Iron Throne. If either of these two
superpowers see the fall of the Manslayer as a possibility for anysort of
tactical advantage, I am sure they would pounce on it immediately.

Sean

[Clayton F. Hinton]

>Just to use a published example,l Boeruine's ancestor fought just such a
>war against Michael Roele, both of whom were "experienced, savvy rulers".

Um...were there any serious threats to the Empire at the time? The Gorgon
was not about to invade, and you didn't have whisperings of another elven
manhunt about to happen...did you? Besides, that had roots in a failed
attempt to assassinate Micheal. Finally, you will have to admit that
Micheal did a grande job of protecting the Empire while at the same time
battling Boerine. He succeeded at both.

>SImply being a good ruler, doesn't in any way detract from the desire to
>have more power, in this case the Iron Throne.

Desire, no. Foolhardiness, yes.

If either of these two
>superpowers see the fall of the Manslayer as a possibility for anysort of
>tactical advantage, I am sure they would pounce on it immediately.
>

Not if they knew they would be destroyed regardless of the outcome. They
would more likely fight in a limited fashion, playing cat and mouse,
looking for a weakness that could be exploited enough for a final victory,
and not weakening their realms so much that they were threatened by outside
sources. People who have a lot to lose are usually fairly cautious in
their strategy, even if they risk everything for even more power. What's
the use of risking everything if what you can gain is...nothing?

- -Clay

[David Sean Brown]

> Um...were there any serious threats to the Empire at the time? The Gorgon
> was not about to invade, and you didn't have whisperings of another elven
> manhunt about to happen...did you? Besides, that had roots in a failed
> attempt to assassinate Micheal. Finally, you will have to admit that
> Micheal did a grande job of protecting the Empire while at the same time
> battling Boerine. He succeeded at both.

Unless you count the rebellions occurring in Khinasi and the Brecht lands
as not serious, I suppose..not to mention the fact there was not much of
an empire at that point..many of the nations had decided to side with
Boeurine, leaving Michael a minimal amout of support. he managed to
gather most if it through military maneuvering..and actually, he didn't
protect anything..there was a stalemate for years, until Boeurine made a
foolish move..and yes, the elven manhunts were still going on, despite the
assistance other elven nations were lending to the True Emperor. And yes,
it did have roots in a failed attempt to assisanate Michael, however,
Boeuring chose to follow a path that resulted in the deaths of untold
thousands on both sides..
>
> Not if they knew they would be destroyed regardless of the outcome. They
> would more likely fight in a limited fashion, playing cat and mouse,
> looking for a weakness that could be exploited enough for a final victory,
> and not weakening their realms so much that they were threatened by outside
> sources. People who have a lot to lose are usually fairly cautious in
> their strategy, even if they risk everything for even more power. What's
> the use of risking everything if what you can gain is...nothing?
>
Actually, I'm quite sure the Michael would have stood his ground to the
last man on either side to support his lawful claim to the throne..that
just the kind of guy he was..not one to put Pride before a fall..And I
truly doubt that outside realms would be able to stade idly by (or worse
yet, try to make good for themselves in the meantime) because, should one
of these two happen to come out on top with and real sort of forces left,
they would undoubtedly be in a position to move for teh Throne. Their
main opponent is dead, and (depending on the results of the war) their
lands could even have fallen to the victoy. Should Avanil or Boeurine
fall, their allies would have no option but to capitulate, leaveing the
whole of the west securely in the hands of the victor..given even a
minimal amount of time, they could defend their lands while building up
internal structure. After that, the only real forces left are Mhoried and
Ghoere, and we all know how friendly they are..that is assuming Ghoere
didn;t look at the situation and try to put himself in the good grces of
who he thought would be the winner...

In any event, the presence of the Manslayer in the west is perhaps the
only thing preventing these powers form declaring full fledged war on each
other, and I (for one) think that his position is pretty much
unassailable..a good warding spell can prevent anyone from harassing his
lands should a threat befome too great...

Sean

[Caleb Chitwood]

- -----Original Message-----
From: Clayton F. Hinton
To: birthright@MPGN.COM
Date: Monday, June 29, 1998 4:37 PM
Subject: Re: [BIRTHRIGHT] - Whipping up on Rhoube


>
>>->The elves have another 1500 years to take back all of Cerilia, if they
get
>>->a leader who is wise enought to pull it off, it could happen.
>>Maybe a Shadow-elf will stepp out from the Shadow world ;)
>>
>>
>That's no more likely than an heir to the Roele line suddenly appearing on
>the Iron Throne to re-unite Anuire. Sheesh, I just don't get the
>anti-human sentiment from you people. Humans are the center of activity in
>Anuire, because they are the most powerful group, even as a ruined empire.
>I'm simply amazed that some of you refuse to accept that fact.
>
I think that's the point that the author of the Shadow-elf post was trying
to make. In your fit of self-righteousness, you failed to detect the
sarcasm. Note the smile at the end of the post.

[Clayton F. Hinton]

>Unless you count the rebellions occurring in Khinasi and the Brecht lands
>as not serious, I suppose..

Suppose away, then.

not to mention the fact there was not much of
>an empire at that point..many of the nations had decided to side with
>Boeurine, leaving Michael a minimal amout of support. he managed to
>gather most if it through military maneuvering..and actually, he didn't
>protect anything..

To my knowledge, Mike sent his army far and wide to take care of menaces,
winning the respect and admiration of many rulers, and spreading fear of
his power to less admirable rulers. All this while whipping up on Boerine.


>Actually, I'm quite sure the Michael would have stood his ground to the
>last man on either side to support his lawful claim to the throne..

My original claim is that the current rulers of Avanila and Boerine are
savvy politicians and capable strategists. Micheal Roele's adversary was a
shrewd man as well, and he bid everything on his effort to gain the Iron
Throne. If he had won, he would have gained a relatively strong Empire (as
Micheal did). By comparison, consider a massive wave of evil-led armies
consisting of Goblins, Dwarves, Orogs, and Elves led by the Gorgon (???)
that some of the more inane members of this lis say would pour accross the
plains of Anuire to wipe up the leftovers after such a conflict...this
never happened because Boerine and Roele did not destroy everything they
had in their effort to win. The current leaders of Avanil and Boerine
would, in my opinion, not be foolish enough to start something they could
not finish, thus damning them to lose either way.

>Should Avanil or Boeurine
>fall, their allies would have no option but to capitulate, leaveing the
>whole of the west securely in the hands of the victor..given even a
>minimal amount of time, they could defend their lands while building up
>internal structure. After that, the only real forces left are Mhoried and
>Ghoere, and we all know how friendly they are..that is assuming Ghoere
>didn;t look at the situation and try to put himself in the good grces of
>who he thought would be the winner...

I'm not sure of the point here...so I'll not comment.

>
>In any event, the presence of the Manslayer in the west is perhaps the
>only thing preventing these powers form declaring full fledged war on each
>other, and I (for one) think that his position is pretty much
>unassailable..a good warding spell can prevent anyone from harassing his
>lands should a threat befome too great...

Well, I (for one) do NOT think Rhoubhe the Awnsheigh is the only thing
keepking Boerine and Avanil from all-out war. I believe Diemed, Mhoried,
and Ghoere are also important factors for these two to avoid commiting 100%
to the destruction of his enemy. To do so may lead to the victor being too
weak to stand up to the other leading powers in Anuire. Even if Rhoubhe
were not there, it is likely that Avanil and Boerine would still be playing
a long game of chess until one gained a clear, decisive advantage over the
other.

- -Clay

[The Olesens]

I believe Diemed, Mhoried,
> and Ghoere are also important factors for these two to avoid commiting 100%
> to the destruction of his enemy. To do so may lead to the victor being too
> weak to stand up to the other leading powers in Anuire. Even if Rhoubhe
> were not there, it is likely that Avanil and Boerine would still be playing
> a long game of chess until one gained a clear, decisive advantage over the
> other.


But chess with over ten players, alliances, and the like (hey, that
wouldn't make a bad variation, if you could find a ten sided board).

[James Ray]

I dunno - I agree that a bunch of immortal wizards will certainly have an
infinite amount of magical superiority over those short-lived humans, who,
by elven standards, dont live long enough to TRULY master the intricacies
of spell-casting, but the rules dont touch on the matter much. I think
there must be 2 reasons for the Manslayer still occupying his lil piece of
Anuire (wasnt he there during the Anuirean Empire, as well?):

1) The puny humans (of Boeruine and Avanil, at least) are too frightened
of what he MIGHT be able to do to them if they tried to get rid of him, and
dont want to weaken their defenses to go after him.

2) Just because that poster map of Anuire says Rhoube is a 2/7 province
doesnt MEAN its a 2/7 province. Elven civilization doesnt reduce the level
of Source Holdings, nor does it despoil the land, so the place could
actually be a 7/7 (or whatever) province, if you, like myself, prefer the
idea of a big Elven nation poised for the opportunity to strike out against
its enemies.

[Clayton F. Hinton]

At 03:20 AM 6/30/98 -0500, you wrote:
>
>I dunno - I agree that a bunch of immortal wizards will certainly have an
>infinite amount of magical superiority over those short-lived humans, who,
>by elven standards, dont live long enough to TRULY master the intricacies
>of spell-casting, but the rules dont touch on the matter much. I think
>there must be 2 reasons for the Manslayer still occupying his lil piece of
>Anuire (wasnt he there during the Anuirean Empire, as well?):

Wait...you think elves should have more mastery of magic that human blooded
wizards, as a rule? What ever happened to the tendancy of most elves to be
latent in their studies? To view magic as an interest, not a path to
ultimate power? In AD&D, elves are inherently different from humans. They
are not simply long-lived humans. Because of their long lives, they are
weaker than humans in many ways.
1) they do not breed nearly as fast as humans
2) they do not have the "fire" humans do to excell and become extremely
powerful (i.e., no level limits in any class), BECAUSE of their long life;
their "flame" burns more slowly, but there is the same amount of "fuel" for
a elf as there is for a human.
3) they cannot adapt to new situations as quicly as humans do, because
they do not have the same amount of "turnover" in generations to bring new
ideas and use them. Only now, after over a thousand years, are they
getting a grip on their new place in the world. And they still haven't
gotten used to the idea of the gods (big problem).

>
>1) The puny humans (of Boeruine and Avanil, at least) are too frightened
>of what he MIGHT be able to do to them if they tried to get rid of him, and
>dont want to weaken their defenses to go after him.
>

agreed. Rhoubhe is powerful, and has very powerful forces. It would take
all of Anuire to finish him off for sure, or at least all of Western Anuire.

>2) Just because that poster map of Anuire says Rhoube is a 2/7 province
>doesnt MEAN its a 2/7 province. Elven civilization doesnt reduce the level
>of Source Holdings, nor does it despoil the land, so the place could
>actually be a 7/7 (or whatever) province, if you, like myself, prefer the
>idea of a big Elven nation poised for the opportunity to strike out against
>its enemies.

Er...maybe it's a 2/7 because not many elves are willing to follow a evil,
Sorcerer, Awnsheigh, Insane Elf. But he still can have as many troops as a
DM wishes, regardless of his domain strength (which could/should comprise
mainly fighting people elves, equivilant to a level 6+ province for getting
new troops).

- -Clay

[Pieter A de Jong]

At 12:19 PM 6/30/98 -0500, Clayton F. Hinton wrote:
>At 03:20 AM 6/30/98 -0500, you wrote:

>Wait...you think elves should have more mastery of magic that human blooded
>wizards, as a rule? What ever happened to the tendancy of most elves to be
>latent in their studies? To view magic as an interest, not a path to
>ultimate power? In AD&D, elves are inherently different from humans. They
>are not simply long-lived humans. Because of their long lives, they are
>weaker than humans in many ways.
>1) they do not breed nearly as fast as humans

Okay, I agree with this

>2) they do not have the "fire" humans do to excell and become extremely
>powerful (i.e., no level limits in any class), BECAUSE of their long life;
>their "flame" burns more slowly, but there is the same amount of "fuel" for
>a elf as there is for a human.

One word: CRAP! This is at best stereotypical and at worst a caricature.
This view of elves came about as a function of solely of artificially
imposed level limits from the 1st edition AD&D game, Birthright elves should
not be treated in such a caricatured fashion. They are people, some have
more focus than others. There is NO LIMIT on elven ability as a wizard in
Birthright, see the birthright rulebook. As far as humans being more driven
than elves, for a classic example take a look at Rhuobe Manslayer. He has
spent the last 2000 years killing humans whenever and wherever he can, is he
not "driven".

>3) they cannot adapt to new situations as quicly as humans do, because
>they do not have the same amount of "turnover" in generations to bring new
>ideas and use them. Only now, after over a thousand years, are they
>getting a grip on their new place in the world. And they still haven't
>gotten used to the idea of the gods (big problem).
>
On an individual basis, I suspect that the average elf adapts to a new
situation at least as fast as a human, having the same average wisdom, a
higher average intelligence, and a racial prediliction to a chaotic
environment (generally chaotic neutral alignment). As far as getting a grip
on their "new place" in the world, what makes you think they are content to
stay there?

I have trouble with the philosophical concept of gods (omniscient,
omnipotent). IMC the elves look upon the gods as powerful extraplanar
beings, not as something to be worshipped. They do understand that the gods
exist, they just aren't ponying up to the altar with offerings for beings
who have never done anything for them except kill them.
>

Pieter A de Jong
Graduate Mechanical Engineering Student
University of Saskatchewan, Saskatoon, Canada