Magician Spell List

[Osprey]

Developing a Magician Spell List:

What are the guidelines? In the BRCS, illusion and divination were dominant, of course, but enchantment and non-offensive transmutations were also fairly prominent. Do we want to keep this theme? Or do we want to get strict about no spells outside of the 2 main schools above level 2?

This issue must be decided on before we can begin picking the PHB and/or BRCS spell lists apart, otherwise it will be an impossibly confused task.

Osprey

[RaspK_FOG]

I suggest that the magician's spell list looks like this: Mostly Divination and Illusion spells, with a few unique magician spells (for example, imagine a spell called "Eleira's Illus-Transition" which is an Illusion (Phantasm) [Mind-Affecting] spell that works mostly like polymorph self, except that the whole effect is illusory).
Some Transmutation spells that allow for boosting one's capabilities but nothing to extraordinairy (no Statue, for example).
Evocation spells of only the lighter motives, like Gust of Wind. Shatter might be interesting as a part of the magician's spell list.
Necromantic effects are an issue, since 3e/3.5e does not go a lot towards allowing many necromanitc spells of a healing/helpful nature, unless they are also sinister. I have another few ideas concerning THAT part, though.
Quite a few Abjuration spells, mainly Banishment, Magic Circles, and things like that I suppose.
Conjuration is tricky.
Not that many Enchantments, at least not unique ones.
Magicians should also (in my opinion) have a small healing repertoire of spells, some of them possibly new (remember what I said about necromancy?).

[geeman]

Well, not to rehash an old argument, but there are quite a lot of spells

that are classified as being in one school or another that really could be

reclassified that would make sense for the magician`s spell list of

illusions, divinations or "universal" spells. The 5th level wiz/sor spell

Sending, for instance, seems like it would be a sensible spell for BR

magicians to cast and it could just as easily be defined as a divination

spell as an evocation. Daylight (3rd level arcane evocation) would be

doable for magicians.



In fact, here`s a list of spells that would normally be considered true

magic in 3e (and some that were in 2e) that IMO would be good for BR

magicians, their spell level and the 3e school classification:



Sepia Snake Sigil (3rd, conjuration)

Suggestion (3rd, enchantment)

Daylight (3rd, evocation)

Nondetection (3rd, abjuration)

Secret Page (3rd, transmutation)

Confusion (4th, enchantment)

Rary`s Mnemonic Enhancer (4th, transmutation)

Mordenkainen`s Private Sanctum (5th, abjuration)

Sending (5th, evocation)

Mordenkainen`s Lucubration (6th, abjuration)

Suggestion, Mass (6th, enchantment)

Mind Blank (8th, abjuration)

Demand (8th, enchantment)



Personally, I don`t think magicians should get access to the spells that

outright charm or dominate other characters, that being the province of

true magics and bards. A hint of that is OK (like suggestion) but full on

charm should be a step beyond them.



One should probably note that magicians should not be able to cast Shadow

Evocation even though it would be available to them as an illusion spell

because it basically allows them to cast spells (albeit less powerfully)

that they would be totally barred from casting. There are a few spells

that are classified as illusions or divinations that I don`t really buy for

BR magicians (like Simulacrum) but c`est la vie.



One might also dip into the spells that are normally considered clerical or

druidic, and a few that are bardic. A magician might, for example, be able

to cast the 2nd level divine spell Augury, and along with it the 4th level

spell Divination. Other spells that are in 3e classified as divine that

would probably be apt for magicians:



Detect Poison (0th)

Guidance (0th)

Know Direction (0th)

Detect Animals or Plants (1st)

Detect Chaos/Law/Good/Evil (1st)

Detect Snares/Pits (1st)

Detect Undead (1st)

Faerie Fire (1st)

Enthrall (2nd)

Find Traps (2nd)

Status (2nd)

Glibness (3rd, bard)

Sculpt Sound (3rd, bard)

Discern Lies (4th)

Modify Memory (4th, bard)

Zone of Silence (4th, bard)

Find the Path (6th)

Spellstaff (6th, druid)

Stone Tell (6th, druid)

Moment of Prescience (8th)



A few of those might be debatable, but on the whole I think they`re

sensible for magicians.



Gary

[Osprey]

Gary, I like a lot of your suggestions, but I'm still debating whether magicians should have the bardic social-type spells. I would prefer that their main social spells remain divinatory, such as Detect Lies. While illusion and enchantment are arguably intertwined, I think Bards should remain the main magically-enhanced smooth talkers (with spells like suggestion and glibness and charm, that's exactly the type of role created).

[Kelphthal]

I think some excellent suggestions have been made, already. Here is my idea.

First and formost the guideline should be making magicians useful and fun to play. They will primarily be a support class denied the fire and brimstone of true magic.

So I think that necromancy is right out the door, foul taste to the stuff. All other spells looked at one at a time, and no I am not going to do that in one post.

I think the most important thing to remember is that magicians are not wizards sorceros bards clerics druids or any othe spell caster. They fill a uniqu niche of advisor and support. I think illusion and divination should be what they have most of, this is cannon. And they should probably get most illusion or divination spells a level or two earlier than wizards and sorcerors.

Other spells should be chosen to fufill the roll of advisor. If a spell seems allowable, but doesn't seem quite right for a magician, raise it up a few levels. I already used the Tenser's floating disk example in another thread. It is a decent spell, not overly powerful, but most definetly evocation. So, let the magician get it as a level 2 or 3 spell instead of level 1.

I will stop rambling now, and go dive into a cup of my morning coffee...

[destowe]

I like both Geeman's and Raspk_FOG's suggestions.

I always seem some of the magicians as the hedge wizard/witch in some of the smaller towns.

I would like to see some of the traditional 'witch' spells in their list:

Bestow Curse/Remove Curse
Eyebite
Ray of Fatigue

These are mostly necromatic effects, but not of the undead-affecting type. Without access to flashy evocations or many summonings, these would be the main defenses of magician.

Some healing spells would be needed, but nothing too powerful:

Cure light and maybe moderate
Lesser Restoration
Remove Disease
Remove Paralysis

I think most people are concentrating on Court Mages or something similar. But with mages being uncommon most towns would have a hedge witch instead of a mage. Trying to capture what spells have that flavor. (Adept from the 3.5 SRD has a small list, but not exactly what I was looking for. The witch spell list in the 3.0 DMG was more where I got these ideas from.)

[geeman]

At 08:09 PM 7/12/2004 +0200, destowe wrote:



>Without access to flashy evocations or many summonings, these would be the

>main defenses of magician.Some healing spells would be needed, but nothing

>too powerful:Cure light and maybe moderateLesser RestorationRemove

>DiseaseRemove ParalysisI think most people are concentrating on Court

>Mages or something similar.



I`d stay away from healing/curing magics if at all possible. Aside from

being redundant with the magics of divine spellcasters it isn`t IMO really

a matter of what would be practical for them to have access to. That is,

it would seem like heal spells would be a smart thing for them to have...

but it`s simply outside the capacity of the class itself. Given the ease

of multi-classing in 3e/3.5 if a BR magician wants to cure light wounds

they should take a level as a priest of Ruornil (or whatever) so it`s

really not that hard for a pragmatic magician to get access to healing

magics if s/he really wants.



>(Adept from the 3.5 SRD has a small list, but not exactly what I was

>looking for. The witch spell list in the 3.0 DMG was more where I got

>these ideas from.)



Yeah, when it gets right down to it Magicians just have to have their own

unique spell list.... "Cheating" the spell list using schools of magic

just doesn`t really work game mechanically or thematically IMO.



Gary

[destowe]

That does sound like a good idea Geeman.

Remove the healing and they can multi-class for them. The choice of cleric would probably reflect better the type of spells they cast then.

I would beware of the one that worships Eloele in the small town. Preferably find the one dedicated to Sera or Rournil instead.

[geeman]

Here`s what I`d propose for a BR magician`s spell list. In 3e some of

these spells are classified in schools of magic other than illusion and

divination. I`d suggest that they could for BR purposes be reclassified

without hurting things.



3rd: Blindness/Deafness, Clairaudience/Clairvoyance, Daylight, Deeper

Darkness, Displacement, Illusionary Script, Invisibility Sphere, Glibness,

Major Image, Sculpt Sound, Sepia Snake Sigil, Suggestion, Tongues.



4th: Arcane Eye, Confusion, Detect Scrying, Discern Lies, Hallucinatory

Terrain, Illusionary Wall, Improved Invisibility, Locate Creature, Mnemonic

Enhancer, Modify Memory, Phantasmal Killer, Rainbow Pattern, Scrying, Zone

of Silence.



5th: Contact Other Plane, Dream, False Vision, Feeblemind, Mirage Arcana,

Nightmare, Persistent Image, Private Sanctum, Prying Eyes, Seeming,

Sending, Telepathic Bond.



6th: Analyze Dweomer, Find the Path, Legend Lore, Lucubration, Mass

Suggestion, Mislead, Permanent Image, Programmed Image, Project Image,

Spellstaff, Stone Tell, True Seeing, Veil.



7th: Greater Scrying, Insanity, Mass Invisibility, Sequester, Vision.



8th: Demand, Discern Location, Mind Blank, Moment of Prescience, Screen.



9th: Foresight, Weird.



I excluded some spells from that list that are typically illusions:



Simulacrum is a 7th level illusion that isn`t really very illusionary if

you think about it. There is, however, a rather short list of 7th level

spells there, so one might want to put it back.



I also excluded all the shadow related spells (shadow conjuration, shadow

evocation, shadow walk, etc.) since many of them effectively allow the

caster to use what is in BR true magic... and because I think several of

them would work really well for a magician based prestige class (a sort of

magician/shadow walker.)



Re: Blindness/Deafness. It seems possible for magicians to use an

illusionary version of this spell that would, effectively, put up an

illusion before their eyes or blocking their ears to prevent them from

using those senses. I did not, however, include Remove Blindness/Deafness

because that spell can actually heal damaged organs, which I think should

be beyond magicians. A version of that spell that was purely a counter to

the Blindness/Deafness spell, however, should be included IMO.



Gary

[Osprey]

I've always thought Shadow Magic was a perfect weapon for the illusory specialist of Cerilia, the magician. If they get shadow versions of evocation, they are only as deadly if they are believed to be real. I think of shadow magic as a combination of conjuration and illusion in BR, as it draws on the Seeming to manifest in the physical world.

For this reason I'd opt for allowing shadow magic, but perhaps at +1 spell level compared to wizards and sorcerers (who have an easier time with that school).

I'm in favor of the suggestion to allow some support/defensive magics of above 3rd level. I think evocation should be a banned school in most cases (especially spells above 2nd level) as a most basic balancer for specialty with illusion and divination spells.

I'd prefer if Magicians recieved Heal as a class skill, and a spell like Competence (+ caster level as bonus for one skill). They could be practically helpful, and use magic indirectly to improve their skills and insight into healing, a high-demand skill for support characters.

Clerics then stand in greater contrast as a class, for they are the miracle workers and faith healers, those who are direct conduits of divine power.

Magicians don't tend to stand in the spotlight so often. Instead they must be clever, creative, and competent to find a place of power, respect, or fame. Subtle magics should be their forte. I imagine Silent and Still Spells would be common amongst veteran magicians, especially court magicians.

IMC I prefer the NPC Adept class for many village and rural wise women, witches, warlocks, etc. Theirs is a magic that is elemental, social, based on ritual, faith, and a strong intuition. The magician stands as a small step "above" the adept in terms of power and sophistication. Most magicians are well-recieved by wizards, but I could hardly imagine the same for adepts.

It would be nice to see some decent specialty spells that are exclusive to the magician. I like it if the magican has a few tricks that true mages don't have the finesse or focus for.

Osprey

[irdeggman]

Gary,
There is no real reason to reclassify the schools of spells for BR, other than your propensity to 'want to do that'. All of the 3.5 spells had a school assigned to them for a reason, this has a lot to do with Spellcraft checks, specialist wizards, etc. and messing with that messes with the mechanic drastically. I know we have disagreed with the requirement/concept that every spell belongs to only 1 school in 3.5, there are other descriptors/designators, but there is only 1 school for every spell.

A magician's spell list works regardless of what the school of the spell is in period.

Adding spells from other classes works, which is what was done in the last BRCS version of the class - there were several high level cleric only Ill/Div spells added to the magician's spell list.

I've been working on a version of the SRD spell list and adding what schools the spells are in for the bard/cleric/druid/ranger/paladin ones. Once I've finished I'll post it - it should make looking these things up easier for a point of reference.

One thing I think still will need to be done to make the magician class a truely playable one is to add more class abilities. IMO we just won't be able to come up with a a sufficient number of higher level spells to make it an effective spellcasting class at higher levels, hence this weakness will have to be adjusted via class abilities at the higher levels.

[geeman]

At 12:12 PM 7/13/2004 +0200, irdeggman wrote:



>Gary, There is no real reason to reclassify the schools of spells for BR,

>other than your propensity to `want to do that`.



We could argue this again, but there are both thematic and game mechanical

reasons to reclassify those spells, so it`s not merely a "want to do that"

situation. (Which, BTW, is reason enough to change things.) Those reasons

have failed to make an impression in the past, so I doubt they will in this

context either, but I can list the two main reasons they are significant

here once more:



1. Reclassifying those spells makes them accessible to magicians without

changing the fundamental BR theme that differentiates between lesser and

true magic. This is important to create a workable spellcasting character

class since without it the magician`s spell list is very short--arguably

too short to be playable.



2. Reclassifying the 3e spells into different schools of magic allows one

to use other 3e mechanics for magicians. To wit, the 3e school

specialization effects for arcane spellcasters upon those spells. Since

magicians are specialists in illusion and divination (and are, in fact,

limited to those spells over 2nd level) reclassifying those spells not only

gives them access to them but makes them better at using them than would

another spellcaster. This maintains both parity with 3e`s rules and the 2e

concept of such characters.



>All of the 3.5 spells had a school assigned to them for a reason, this has

>a lot to do with Spellcraft checks, specialist wizards, etc. and messing

>with that messes with the mechanic drastically. I know we have disagreed

>with the requirement/concept that every spell belongs to only 1 school in

>3.5, there are other descriptors/designators, but there is only 1 school

>for every spell.



I wasn`t suggesting that the spells should be given two schools of magic,

but that they should be reclassified entirely. However, it would work

either way in this case. In fact, it probably works better just to put

them in both schools. It works for the same reasons it works with adding a

nature school of magic, and it still has absolutely no negative

consequences whatsoever other than disagreeing with the interpretation of

the 3e classification system as being a purposeful construct that cannot be

tampered with--an interpretation that I still find more than a little

dubious. Calling Sepia Snake Sigil both an illusion spell and a

conjuration spell, for instance, will work just fine, will still maintain

parity with 3e, allow BR magicians to cast the spell with the functions of

that class, and maintain the BR theme. Or it could just be called an

illusion spell.



I feel obliged to reiterate that the one spell/one school concept remains

unsupported by any actual prose in the 3e texts or any D20 text and is an

interpretation of how they organized the spells in the PHB. Not abiding by

that (questionable) theme has very little negative effect. Even if it did,

such changes remain the purpose of campaign material in the first

place. Assuming it is a 3e theme it`s the kind of thing that is

specifically changed in campaign settings for reasons that it is changed in

BR. At its core, this is a 3e vs. campaign material argument. My position

is that campaign material ALWAYS overrides such core material "rules" as

the classification of spells. It`s less significant a change than paladins

of alignments other than lawful good, a noble PC class, or any number of

basic 3e game mechanics that have been changed in the BRCS. It`s certainly

less of a change than using the Unearthed Arcana bloodline system to

portray awnsheghlien....



>A magician`s spell list works regardless of what the school of the spell

>is in period.



I find it insufficient in that if one wants to include a few spells that

are not somehow reclassified it contradicts one of the basic BR campaign

themes.



>Adding spells from other classes works, which is what was done in the last

>BRCS version of the class - there were several high level cleric only

>Ill/Div spells added to the magician`s spell list. I`ve been working on a

>version of the SRD spell list and adding what schools the spells are in

>for the bard/cleric/druid/ranger/paladin ones. Once I`ve finished I`ll

>post it - it should make looking these things up easier for a point of

>reference.



That should help. I did go through all the spells in the PHB in order to

find ones dedicated to other classes to come up with the spell list

previously posted, but I`m sure there are some I might have missed,

however, so a more definitive listing that is easier to work with would

probably help.



>One thing I think still will need to be done to make the magician class a

>truely playable one is to add more class abilities.



That would help. One could also go with a few prestige classes.... That

way one can assume that magicians specialize in particular areas once their

spell list starts to get thin.



>IMO we just won`t be able to come up with a a sufficient number of higher

>level spells to make it an effective spellcasting class at higher levels,

>hence this weakness will have to be adjusted via class abilities at the

>higher levels.



That may very well be. Even the expanded list of spells from other schools

is "bottom heavy" having only a few spells at 7th level or higher. Of

course, that means up to 12th level as a magician we are good to go, but it

doesn`t particularly satisfy.



Gary

[ConjurerDragon]

destowe schrieb:



>This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.

> You can view the entire thread at:

> http://www.birthright.net/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=36&t=2737

>

> destowe wrote:

> I like both Geeman`s and Raspk_FOG`s suggestions.I always seem some of the magicians as the hedge wizard/witch in some of the smaller towns.I would like to see some of the traditional `witch` spells in their list:Bestow Curse/Remove CurseEyebiteRay of FatigueThese are mostly necromatic effects, but not of the undead-affecting type. Without access to flashy evocations or many summonings, these would be the main defenses of magician.

>

That would be true if the Magician would be just a specialized wizard.

But neither in 2E nor in 3E is he only a speciazlized wizard. In 2E he

had access to non-weapon-proficiencys that the True wizard had not but

only the rogue. He could fight with weapons the True wizard could not.

And they could cast spells of level 1 and 2 of all schools, despite that

a specialized wizard would be completley banned from his opposed school.

bye

Michael

[irdeggman]

As I said earlier I've been working on a "tool" that may help. I've been going through the PHB spells and making a list with the schools. Here is an excel version, sorted by school and then name of the spells from the PHB. I listed them by the SRD name with the PHB name in parens. I only included the core spellcasting classes and only the spells from the PHB, but since it is excel - if you have excel on your PC (or a product that can import it) then you can add as you see fit.

I had to zip the files, since I can't upload an excel file directly to the board. I included 2 excel versions, one that has a break in the rows between schools and one that doesn't. I also included a pdf version for those who only want a printed list.

[irdeggman]

Here is the pdf file alone.

[Kelphthal]

That is an inspring amount of work, I remember when I had time like that... Now i have a wife and kid...

Anyway, I intend to add a column called magician, and start Assiging spells to levels. I would suggest that anyone opinionated enough do something similar, and then we can compare notes and see what we end up with.

And a hint for the less excel savvy, if you highlight the first row, and press control+shift+end it will highlight the whole list and you can sort it by any column, to get the list by spell level for a single class.

[irdeggman]

Originally posted by Kelphthal@Jul 16 2004, 06:31 PM
That is an inspring amount of work, I remember when I had time like that... Now i have a wife and kid...


Time, what time? I'm 46, married and have a 13 year old son who is playing a pretty good wizard in a friend's 3.5 campaign.

[RaspK_FOG]

Class features is the best thing to take into account; some wonderful ideas can be given from the Athasian bard (www.athas.org; I know you are aware of the class, Irdeggman, you've told us ;) ), as well as various other sources. Ideas that we could bear in mind would be the inclusion of social-/survival-related bonus feats, bonus on skill checks, addition to class skills, Spell Mastery (which should be allowed to Magicians as well, even if they effectively have Spell Mastery with all of their cantrips).

I want to ask something: how do people generally feel about that idea of mine, having magicians, let's say, "unlocked" with their subtlety of magicks the secret to healing poisoning, or similar effects? I have designed a 5th-level arcane spell that generally works like neutralise poison except for the fact that it cannot detoxify naturally poisonous creatures or objects, and that the target takes 2d6 points of non-lethal damage for every detoxification it experiences unless it makes a successful Fortitude save, in which case it takes only half damage; all these effects are the result of metabolic speed-up.

[irdeggman]

RaspK_Fog

Depends on the perception of the magian class. Is he a shaman type of class or more a studious wizard-wanna-be? This would define whether or not the class would focus on alchemical type of healing (which IMO is how it would lead to the unlocking you are talking about).

In other games there are other class features that could reasonably be imported in some form; an ability that allows the character to pick a skill that is now treated as a class skill, rogue type-evasion abilities also make sense (IMO I wouldn't go with adding sneak attack ones though), extraordinary luck type of abilities (one free re-roll per day) (see the Luck domain), etc.

I wouldn't go with attack type of abilities, e.g., sneak attack, etc., they just don't seem to fit the class concept IMO while luck based ones do.

Graduated bonuses to diviniation and/or illusion spells make sense to me also. That is the 'specialist' type of bonuses (+ to DC, + to spellcraft checks) like a +1 at a certain level with an additional +1 at subsequent levels.

Just some thoughts. Although concerning the athasian bard, I just don't see the Cerilian bard being a master of poison. The class has always been portrayed as one that consults with and advised regents, a poisoner is just flat out not to be trusted. In Dark Sun, no one trusts bards because of this.

Bonuses to interaction skills, like diplomacy and knowledge (Nobility) also make sense, depending on how the class is perceived.

[RaspK_FOG]

Err, I think you misunderstood me here; what I meant is that the Athasian bard as portrayed in www.athas.org fits the idea I have of class features suitable to the magician perfectly: Adding any one skill as a class skill to the character's class skills, whatever his class may be. For example, a magician picks Spot as a "character skill", meaning it is considered a class skill for him ever after. Alternatively, we could say that you choose two skills and they are forever after considered magician class skills for you; remember, class skills apply on a case-by-case basis in 3.5e, unlike 3e where class skills from your various classes where always considered class skills.
Add a +2 bonus on any two skills.
Add half your magician level as a competence bonus on Craft (any one skill), Knowledge (any one skill), Profession (any one skill), or Spellcraft checks.
Learn an additional spell, from a cantrip up to any spell at least 3 levels lower than the maximum level of spells you can cast.
Gain a +2 on saving throws against either Divination or Illusion spells and effects.

These are of course nothing but examples.

[geeman]

When it comes to the themes and interpretations of the magician class in a

3e conversion I would suggest that certain ones (a "witch" or one of the

ones described as kits in 2e in the BoM) might be best expressed as

prestige classes or through a judicious use of metamagic feats rather than

as part of the magician class itself. Curses, for example, are part of one

might consider the stereotype of black magic. In 3e Bestow Curse is in the

transmutation school, which would normally not be allowed to a BR

magician. However, one could give access to that school (or just that

spell and ones like it) through a prestige class or a metamagic

feat. Picture, for example a prestige class available to magicians that

gave them access to a special ability called, say, "Dark Magic" that gave

them the effect of school specialization (one additional spell memorized

per day of the following list & +2 to spellcraft to learn spells of that

school) and access to the following spells normally not available to

magicians, including Bestow Curse and related spells. Because of the

progressive nature of that special ability (spells by level) the class need

not have a lot of other special abilities.



Generally, I think that`s the best way to go, but one could include various

BR-specific metamagic feats to allow magicians access to things. The

creation of magical traps, poisons, etc. might all be things available to

particular magicians.



Gary

[RaspK_FOG]

I think that making prestige classes that grant the benefits of specialisation without heavily penalising their "user" are broken because one might well qualify for more than one such prestige class. For example, my Elementalist prestige class granted SEVERAL benefits in regard to casting spells from one of the four empedocleian elements but could not cast spells from its opposing element.

[irdeggman]

Originally posted by RaspK_FOG@Jul 17 2004, 09:34 PM
Err, I think you misunderstood me here; what I meant is that the Athasian bard as portrayed in www.athas.org fits the idea I have of class features suitable to the magician perfectly:
Not really.

I did say that several other sources (implied to include the athas.org one) could be used for examples of abilities for a magician class. I only wanted to point out that the master of poison one was not one, IMO. And it is a central theme for athasian bards though.

[Kelphthal]

I had some thoughts in general on the magician.

Spell List:


sor/Wiz

Reduce the level of all illusion and divination spells by 1, minimum zero

Elliminate Necromancy entirely

Allow 1-3 level transmutation, enchantment, and abjuration as is

allow 1-2 level evocation and conjuration as is

exception, increase by 1 the level of all spells that do damage

Cleric, add all clerical illusion or divination magic that at the clerical level

add cure wounds series at level +1


Abilities

At second level the magician chooses a specialization, diviner or illusionist

+2 spell craft checks to learn spells, increased Save DCs, Save bonus...

At 4, 8, 12,16 & 20

Illusionists gain +1 dodge bonus to AC
Diviners gain +1 premonition bonus to hit

at 5, 10 15, 20 gain a free meta magic feat, or spell mastery

beginning when they can cast level 2 spells they can substitute a spell 2 levels lower for which they have spell mastery for any prepared spell and cast it spontaneously, IE they can cast a level 0 spell in place of a lmemorized level 2 spell if they have spell mastery of the level 0 spell...

just some initial thoughts

[geeman]

At 01:41 PM 7/18/2004 +0200, RaspK_FOG wrote:



>I think that making prestige classes that grant the benefits of

>specialisation without heavily penalising their "user" are broken because

>one might well qualify for more than one such prestige class.



Since the magician already has so many schools of magic that are

unavailable to him the penalty is already built in, as it were. Unless one

wants to prohibit them from access to illusion or divination spells.... In

this case, however, I`d compare the process to the way certain divine

prestige classes grant access to another domain.



>For example, my Elementalist prestige class granted SEVERAL benefits in

>regard to casting spells from one of the four empedocleian elements but

>could not cast spells from its opposing element.



That`s a nice, handy opposition there.



Gary

[irdeggman]

I had some thoughts in general on the magician.

Spell List:


sor/Wiz

Reduce the level of all illusion and divination spells by 1, minimum zero

Elliminate Necromancy entirely

Allow 1-3 level transmutation, enchantment, and abjuration as is

allow 1-2 level evocation and conjuration as is

exception, increase by 1 the level of all spells that do damage

Cleric, add all clerical illusion or divination magic that at the clerical level

add cure wounds series at level +1

Have you laid this out to see what it looks like when written down? What I mean is that until the spells are written down on paper so that they can physically be looked at, the distribution of the spells is not obvious and the actual power level of the class (in regards to spells) is lost or overlooked.

At second level the magician chooses a specialization, diviner or illusionist

+2 spell craft checks to learn spells, increased Save DCs, Save bonus...

Except that specialization must be taken at 1st level. That is unless you don't mean specialization as specialization is written in the PHB but rather a 'path focus' type of thing.

At 4, 8, 12,16 & 20

Illusionists gain +1 dodge bonus to AC
Diviners gain +1 premonition bonus to hit

Now it looks like a duo path class (like the latest version of the noble). Makes sense, but should be laid out that way.

at 5, 10 15, 20 gain a free meta magic feat, or spell mastery


Real close to the wizard, except for missing the item creation feats, which probably apply just as well. There are a lot of illusion/divination items that magicians should be able to create, probably better than wizards. IMO the class needs to differ from the wizard in order to make it more attractive as a class and not just a degenerate wizard. Maybe the feats only apply to divination or illusion spells (depending on the path chosen).



beginning when they can cast level 2 spells they can substitute a spell 2 levels lower for which they have spell mastery for any prepared spell and cast it spontaneously, IE they can cast a level 0 spell in place of a lmemorized level 2 spell if they have spell mastery of the level 0 spell. . .


just some initial thoughts


Double check which spells are necromancy ones. Some of them seem tome to be quite appropriate for a magician;

Blindness/deafness, the symbol spells, etc. Just a note that this should be looked over before dismissing them in entirety.

Looking it over, again the class will remain low level spell heavy with a tremendous shortage of higher level spells and yet the class abilties are spread over the levels as they progress instead of being inserted when the spells start to taper off. This would make the class one that is taken at low levels and then discarded. This is why the ranger class was redone to prevent people from taking a single level (or few low levels) and then switching classes because the ranger class benefits faded as the class progressed in levels.

[Kelphthal]

Have you laid this out to see what it looks like when written down? What I mean is that until the spells are written down on paper so that they can physically be looked at, the distribution of the spells is not obvious and the actual power level of the class (in regards to spells) is lost or overlooked.



Not yet, working on it with that spread sheet. Probably have it sorted out tomorrow.



At second level the magician chooses a specialization, diviner or illusionist

+2 spell craft checks to learn spells, increased Save DCs, Save bonus...

Except that specialization must be taken at 1st level. That is unless you don't mean specialization as specialization is written in the PHB but rather a 'path focus' type of thing.



My intent was a path focus kind of thing, exactly like the new rangers. I was also hoping to add some high level abilities appropriate to the path choice, that or allowing the magician to get both at level 10.



Real close to the wizard, except for missing the item creation feats, which probably apply just as well. There are a lot of illusion/divination items that magicians should be able to create, probably better than wizards. IMO the class needs to differ from the wizard in order to make it more attractive as a class and not just a degenerate wizard. Maybe the feats only apply to divination or illusion spells (depending on the path chosen).



I agree mostly. I am letting it remain similar to a wizard in this, i took away item creation so they aren't free to magicians. I am not restricting them from taking them as normal feats, just as bonus feats.



Double check which spells are necromancy ones. Some of them seem tome to be quite appropriate for a magician;

Blindness/deafness, the symbol spells, etc. Just a note that this should be looked over before dismissing them in entirety.



I am thinking that what would be more appropriate is having equivelant spells that are illusion to the necromancy spells for such specific cases. I can't think of any in the rules, but it is possible to have races and or individuals that are immune or resistant to illusions, and so the magician should be appropriately weakened.



Looking it over, again the class will remain low level spell heavy with a tremendous shortage of higher level spells and yet the class abilties are spread over the levels as they progress instead of being inserted when the spells start to taper off. This would make the class one that is taken at low levels and then discarded. This is why the ranger class was redone to prevent people from taking a single level (or few low levels) and then switching classes because the ranger class benefits faded as the class progressed in levels.



I agree. I want to take some more time and make sure the spell list is fleshed out nicely. I an figuring some progressive spells, either extended duration or multiple target versions of curtrent spells. I would also like to toss in some abilities as well, although the improved hit die, better combat abilities, and the focus benefit to either AC or attack will in my opinion help a bit because they are staged out.

Just some food for thought

[RaspK_FOG]

Two comments, Irdeggman: What I meant with Class Features should be discribed as Trade Secrets (you know what I mean, from the Athasian bard).
The distribution of my ideas was more like the one that applies for rogues. For example, one special ability at 6th level, and others at 11th, 15th, 18th, and 20th level. I think you will well see the pattern here.

[swashbuck]

I think the focus of the magician should be on illusion and divination, two schools that favour thinking, both sides of hiding and enlightening the things.
Thus it is neat the concept that magicians are wizards without bloodlines, not sorcerors.
Maybe they should have access to some Prestige Classes as well, the ones dabbling in Alchemy, the others who delve in the shadow stuff, being connected to this dreaded plane.

[Osprey]

I've always like magicians as being skilled alchemists too, but this definitely involves some skill in transmutation...another argument for them not being exclusive specialists

[irdeggman]

I'm closing this poll, even though Osprey started it.

Here are the results:

What guidelines should be used to develop the Magician's spell list?
2e style: Illusion and Divination schools only of level 3+ [ 6 ] [25.00%]
BRCS style: enhancement-type spells of other schools as well [ 14 ] [58.33%]
Other (please specify in a post) [ 4 ] [16.67%]
Total Votes: 24


It is pretty clear that a clear majority wants the BRCS-style spells. I'd read this as a separate spell list with more than just Illusion and Divination spells on it, but that is up to you all to figure out.

The reason I'm closing this poll is that if polls remain open too long they lose their intent and the results get waered down by time.

It is probably best to start a fresh poll once some more details are worked out. That is a suggested spell list Try using those tools I posted (i.e., the spreadsheet) to help quantify the effect of placing spells on the magician's spell list.