Paladin:Synopsis

[Benji Craddock]

Alright....

1) I have tried visions from God, and the DM says I am lying.... How do
I tell him my character really believes?
2) How do you lawfully wrest control from a realm? I ahve a level 2 LAW
in ILIEN? Rogr's people Love me... How do I show I am fit?

[kirbyvalor@juno.com (Bre]

On Mon, 15 Jun 1998 19:05:43 -0500 Benji Craddock
writes:
> Alright....
>
>1) I have tried visions from God, and the DM says I am lying.... How
>do
>I tell him my character really believes?

"Every man thinks God is on his side" - Jean Anouilh

I would think that first off, you need to pull out of character and
look at this in an AD&D realistic way. Your DM knows your character
hasn't had visions from Haelyn, because YOUR DM IS HAELYN!!! If your
character really believes this, then he is now what we call "psycho" and
hopefully a real paladin or priest of Haelyn will stop him before he can
damage too many people's faith.

>2) How do you lawfully wrest control from a realm? I ahve a level 2
>LAW
>in ILIEN? Rogr's people Love me... How do I show I am fit?

"What you do speaks so loud that I cannot hear what you say." - Ralph
Waldo Emerson

Unless something major has affected ILIEN, the people aren't going
to love you just because you have a level 2 LAW holding. Three things to
keep in mind here can both be found on pg 47 under "Adjust Loyalty and
Regency" in reference to the "Domain Turn" started on 38. They are 1)
"-1grade if levies were mustered and sent to a foreign war started by the
regent;" 2) "-1 grade for a province under occupation. Note that a
province assumes a loyalty of poor in the first turn that it is occupied
by enemy forces," and [under Law Holdings and Loyalty] 3) "A regent who
controls *less than half* of the law hodlings in a province can't ignore
any grades of loyalty change." Having a level 2 LAW holding in ILIEN is
*less than half* because ILIEN is a LEVEL 7 province!
Your best bet is to ally yourself with a good domain that *might*
get invaded by the bad guys so that you may retaliate and take over the
bad guys' territory. If waiting to be attacked just isn't good enough.
You might as well abandon paladinhood, join Boeruine's side, and declare
war on anyone you see fit to rule better. So what if Boeruine's claim to
the throne is via the biggest traitor to the empire? It's not like
there's a *family tradition* of that going on? Besides, both you and
Boeruine can be lawful. Who cares that you're now evil?
If you just absolutely, positively have to conquer a domain
overnight and you have convinced yourself that you're still Lawful GOOD
and want to remain that way, there's this mountain region northeast of
you called The Gorgon's Crown. If you can take that over, I'm sure
everyone else will follow your rule. That way, you don't have to take
over the entire continent, just the evil side.
In other words, forget about it. You're not listening to us tell
you it's wrong, you're waiting for someone to agree with you and help you
convince your DM of your decision. See the path you are choosing.

Take care,
Kirby
Valor above all
Hey, McCloud, get off me ewe!
"I am not so senseless as to want war. We want peace and understanding,
nothing else. We want to give our hand to our former enemies.... When
has the German people ever broken its word?" - Adolf Hitler

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[James Ray]

I agree. I know the whole alignment system probably needs a little
tweaking for Birthright Campaigns, but looking to usurp controls of lands
controlled by fellow good-aligned humans is almost certainly not the sort
of behavior Paladins of Haelyn are supposed to exemplify. As a Paladin,
your primary concern is to protect and defend your faith. The example of
honest government and civic justice that you set for your neighbors ought
to be sufficient to bring people into your fold, as it were. If you're
feeling threatened by some other Regent's rampant expansionism, just stick
to Ruling and Fortifying your key Provinces and Holdings for a while, and
be patient. Sooner or later, you'll find an opportunity to expand your
Domain honorably, declare existing states to be protectorates, forge
alliances on your own terms, or whatever you feel might be necessary to
protect your faith, your territories, and those of your neighbor, without
courting the danger of alignment infractions.

James

- ----------
> From: Brett L Kirby

> In other words, forget about it. You're not listening to us tell
> you it's wrong, you're waiting for someone to agree with you and help you
> convince your DM of your decision. See the path you are choosing.
>
> Take care,
> Kirby

[Trizt]

On 16-Jun-98, Benji Craddock (craddock@iswt.com) wrote about [BIRTHRIGHT] -
Paladin:Synopsis:

- ->2) How do you lawfully wrest control from a realm? I ahve a level 2 LAW
- ->in ILIEN? Rogr's people Love me... How do I show I am fit?
Do as all other religous persons, kill your foe and tell lies that the former
foe did worship dark powers.

If you are gona play a real Paladin, then you would only protect your
king/church with your life. You wouldn't dream of leading armies of your own.


//Trizt of Ward^RITE

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[DKEvermore@aol.co]

In a message dated 98-06-15 20:11:16 EDT, you write:

> 1) I have tried visions from God, and the DM says I am lying.... How do
> I tell him my character really believes?
> 2) How do you lawfully wrest control from a realm? I ahve a level 2 LAW
> in ILIEN? Rogr's people Love me... How do I show I am fit?
>
If I was the DM for your game I would consider this: If your character was
truly the most fit ruler, perhaps the land itself might might choose you. To
determine it, I would devise a series of tests (adventures) and if all went
well for your character, rulership just *might* transfer! Don't know if this
helps, but it's a thought...

- -DKE

[The Olesens]

"Anger, Fear, and Agression; these things lead to the dark side" Obi-Wan
"Once you start down the dark path forever will it dominate your
destiny"-Yoda

Hede what these men say my Paladin.



Hey, I know all of Boba Fett's lines in the movies:

"As you wish."
"He's no good to me dead."
"Aaahhhhhh!"

Oh just to let you know, Boba Fett does escape the Sarlacc and gets his
cool armor back (BTW-that's Mandalorian Battle Armor).

[Clayton F. Hinton]

>Do as all other religous persons, kill your foe and tell lies that the former
>foe did worship dark powers.
>
>If you are gona play a real Paladin, then you would only protect your
>king/church with your life. You wouldn't dream of leading armies of your own.
>
>
This is irresponsible. A Paladin who has had the fortune of having a
bloodline and a regency owes it to his religion, his followers, his
vassals, his god, himself, his family, his loved ones, and his servants to
do his best as a ruler. That means making hard decisions. But it does not
mean attacking others just because they are there. A *real* paladin does
lead armies, in the name of the church and the god he worships. This view
of a Lawful Stupid Paladin just does not apply to characters in AD&D, and
least of all to a regent in Birthright.

- -Clay Hinton
chinton@mail.utexas.edu

[bloebick@juno.com (Benja]

Well, I see paladins as being able to fight most wars, so long as they
have a "holy cause".

I take this from the historical viewpoint here on good old earth, mostly
the crusades and Arthurian legend. Gawain and Galahad are listed as
being good examples of paladins. Yet the fought in the battle against
Mordred, a kinsmen of their king, and their fellow countrymen. Was
Mordred evil, or just misguided? I won't go there, as it isn't
important. Were his troops evil, slobbering goblins? No, they were
typical, peace loving countrymen and lords who wanted a good king, and
believed Mordred was that king. Yet the paladins had no problem killing
Mordred's followers.

The crusaders sacked and pillaged the city of Constantinople, the capital
of a very christian kingdom that they were supposedly saving from
infidels. Was that evil? Not in their minds. They were justified
because the Byzantine emperors didn't pay up, so they crusaders took
their pay.

So, I imagine that any paladin who can create a holy reason (a high
priest proclaims a crusade, attack a different religion regardless of
benevolence, etc) can invade and pursue war. So, have someone (OIT in
Diemed would be perfect) proclaim a holy war against Medoere and Ilien,
have your paladin invade them, and be happy. Your church is supporting
you, so no worries.

Benjamin

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[kirbyvalor@juno.com (Bre]

On Wed, 17 Jun 1998 19:21:35 -0400 bloebick@juno.com (Benjamin W Loebick)
writes:
>>Well, I see paladins as being able to fight most wars, so long as they
have a "holy cause".

I take this from the historical viewpoint here on good old earth....>Yet the paladins had no problem killing Mordred's followers.So, I imagine that any paladin who can create a holy reason (a high
>priest proclaims a crusade, attack a different religion regardless of
>benevolence, etc) can invade and pursue war. So, have someone (OIT in
>Diemed would be perfect) proclaim a holy war against Medoere and
>Ilien, have your paladin invade them, and be happy. Your church is
>supporting you, so no worries.

[The Olesens]

You can't *create* a holy reason, especially because of a "different
> religion regardless of benevolence." In the AD&D world, that is just
> bull. The triceratops in Jurassic Park couldn't give a bigger pile of
> doo doo. Sure, it probably happened many times in real life history, but
> we never had mages casting fireballs, nor priests creating blade
> barriers, nor Rhoubhe Manslayer either.

On Earth the question of "is there a god?" is not as proven (if proven
at all) as it is in Birthright (where all important people are miniature
gods and it was only 2,000 years ago that the gods were actually seen in
person).

In most fantasy worlds you know that if you're bad a bolt of lightning
will strike you down but in the real world the god(s) aren't as
promiment (if existant at all) as in fantasy worlds (go to your nearest
church and ask a priest to Detect Evil).

[Trizt]

On 18-Jun-98, The Olesens (olesens@bellatlantic.net) wrote about Re:
[BIRTHRIGHT] - Paladin:Synopsis:

- ->On Earth the question of "is there a god?" is not as proven (if proven
- ->at all) as it is in Birthright (where all important people are miniature
- ->gods and it was only 2,000 years ago that the gods were actually seen in
- ->person).

- ->In most fantasy worlds you know that if you're bad a bolt of lightning
- ->will strike you down but in the real world the god(s) aren't as
- ->promiment (if existant at all) as in fantasy worlds

Even as I agree with you, I think you have missed a major part, during those
"darker" times the xian church was quite powerful in europe, the used every
opertunity to surpress the population (many time the priest belived in their
own lies), every bad thing which happened either was said to be a punishment
from god or the doings of the devil. As there was no way at the time to prove
thing otherway the population belived that the priest said was true. That is
as good proof of that god exists as a person who can heal another by laying
hands on her.
Don't forget that religous people sees evidence everywhere of their god/gods
existence, as a good exapmle is that people in the states belived that an ill
washed window was a sign that "holy" mary showed her self for them.
Somehow deply religous people can do really crule things and still think that
they didn't do anything wrong, butin most RPG's there are gods who watches
their worshipers and punish them who do wrong even if they self belive they
didn't anything wrong.

//Trizt of Ward^RITE

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[Arhes]

Trizt ha scritto:

> Even as I agree with you, I think you have missed a major part, during those
> "darker" times the xian church was quite powerful in europe, the used every
> opertunity to surpress the population (many time the priest belived in their
> own lies), every bad thing which happened either was said to be a punishment
> from god or the doings of the devil. As there was no way at the time to prove
> thing otherway the population belived that the priest said was true. That is
> as good proof of that god exists as a person who can heal another by laying
> hands on her.
> Don't forget that religous people sees evidence everywhere of their god/gods
> existence, as a good exapmle is that people in the states belived that an ill
> washed window was a sign that "holy" mary showed her self for them.
> Somehow deply religous people can do really crule things and still think that
> they didn't do anything wrong, butin most RPG's there are gods who watches
> their worshipers and punish them who do wrong even if they self belive they
> didn't anything wrong.

Yes, you know you're right, but this has sense in true reality, in an ad&d
campaign you got alignment, who really don't exist in reality. For a paladin
alignemtn is even more important. Yes, if a paladin was really, really sure of
doing a good thing then he can do an evil act, but don't forget, a paladin may
even not do an evil or even ambiguos act for a great good end. Ways cannot be
ignored for a paladin, so you know, a paladin may want to accomplish something bad
belivieng is good, but never with evil ways.

Arhes
- --
Segui; risveglia i morti,
Poi che dormono i vivi; arma le spente
Lingue de' prischi eroi, tanto che in fine
Questo secol di fango o vita agogni
E sorga ad atti illustri, o si vergogni.
G.L.

[kirbyvalor@juno.com (Bre]

>From the Player's Handbook on pg 46:

"The character's alignment is a guide to his basic moral and ethical
attitudes toward others, society, good, evil, and the forces of the
universe in general. Use the chosen alignment as a guide to provide a
clearer idea of how the character will handle moral dilemmas. Always
consider aligment as a tool, not a straitjacket that restricts the
character. Although aligmnet defines general attitudes, it certainly
doesn't prevent a character from changing his beliefs, acting
irrationally, or behaving out of character."

from pag. 47 (Playing the Character's Alignment):

"Remember, selecting an alignment is a way of saying 'My character is
going to act like a person who believes this.'"

It goes on to mention that changing alignment costs experience, but
doesn't say how much. I think that alignment should be a more strict
guide than "play it loosely," because in this FANTASY game, it is part
of making up a character. People generally have an alignment already in
their head when they create a character and this choice should be made
easily. Alignments are easily played, but when it comes to a tough moral
decision that the player is having a tough time thinking about, the
character shouldn't be allowed to do whatever, but should go with how the
alignment looks at it.
In my opinion, Superman is Lawful Good, but Batman is Chaotic Good,
with a lawful tendancy, after all, he does a lot of breaking in to other
people's places.

Take care,
Kirby

Valor above all
Hey, McCloud, get off me ewe!

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[veryfastperson@juno.com]

>is part of making up a character. People generally have an alignment
>already in their head when they create a character and this choice
>should be made easily. Alignments are easily played, but when it
>comes to a tough moral decision that the player is having a tough time
>thinking about, the character shouldn't be allowed to do whatever, but
>should go with how the alignment looks at it.

Yeah, but 99% of everyone alignment (in their head) would be Chaotic
Neutral ;)
they might fool themselves into thinking they're lawful good, but it's
actually Chaotic Neutral
("what do you mean my paladin can't charage this petty thief because of
my alignment?? he stole from me, and my god tells me to uphold the law!
he broke the law!") but with that example, it's the law that's subject to
controversy, but that's a whole nother topic that we could discuss in
length for years and not get anywhere :)

> In my opinion, Superman is Lawful Good, but Batman is Chaotic
>Good, with a lawful tendancy, after all, he does a lot of breaking in
>to other people's places.

IMHO, superman and batman would be Chaotic Neutral, with lot's of good
tendencies :)

- -Erik

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