Racial level limits in BR, why

[Gary V. Foss]

Suiriene@aol.com wrote:

> Recently, I was looking at Diirk Watershold(Royal Guild of Baruk-Azhik). He
> is a level 10 thief. Then I looked at the racial level limits chart. Dwarves
> can only get up to level 8 as thieves. I generally don't use level limits but
> I was wondering why this NPC doesn't. There are probably other ones too. Are
> NPCs not bound by those restrictions

The NPCs in the BR materials are remarkably unaffected by the rules and
restrictions placed on players in the BR regarding class limits, ability scores,
etc. A list of them would be very long indeed....

Personally, I'd just change the "error" to reflect something allowable by the
rules if you plan on having your players abide by them, or make sure your players
know about the house rule(s) that allow the NPCs to deviate from the norm so that
they can take advantage of them too.

- -Gary

[Brett Lang]

Remember that high prime statistics allows a demi-human to exceed his max
level by up to five levels, and beyond that - from a x2 to x5 XP penalty can
be applied for exceeding the demi-humans level limit (this is in the DMG)

Warlock ..

PS, I think cerilian Dwarves are really COOL !

- -----Original Message-----
From: Suiriene@aol.com
To: birthright@MPGN.COM
Date: Thursday, 11 June 1998 6:59
Subject: [BIRTHRIGHT] - Racial level limits in BR, why aren't they followed?


>Recently, I was looking at Diirk Watershold(Royal Guild of Baruk-Azhik).
He
>is a level 10 thief. Then I looked at the racial level limits chart.
Dwarves
>can only get up to level 8 as thieves. I generally don't use level limits
but
>I was wondering why this NPC doesn't. There are probably other ones too.
Are
>NPCs not bound by those restrictions/
>************************************************** *************************
>>'unsubscribe birthright' as the body of the message.

[The Olesen`s]

Suiriene@aol.com wrote:
>
> Recently, I was looking at Diirk Watershold(Royal Guild of Baruk-Azhik). He
> is a level 10 thief. Then I looked at the racial level limits chart. Dwarves
> can only get up to level 8 as thieves. I generally don't use level limits but
> I was wondering why this NPC doesn't.

Perhaps he does, but with optional rules listed in the DMG.
First of all, if his Dextarity is ?16? he gets two bonus levels to his
level limit (see chart down and to the right of level limits chart).

Secondly, once a demi-human reaches maximum level he/she may still
advance, but XP costs or multiplied (2x?).

There are probably other ones too. Are
> NPCs not bound by those restrictions/


I would allow elven mages to advance as far as humans.

Wait I have another idea:

Blooded People (as in Sentient races with godly blood) may advance as
far as normal humans.

WHY?
I have a few ideas but am not feeling very creative so think your own
up!

[DKEvermore@aol.co]

In a message dated 98-06-10 18:58:49 EDT, you write:

> Recently, I was looking at Diirk Watershold(Royal Guild of Baruk-Azhik). He
> is a level 10 thief. Then I looked at the racial level limits chart.
> Dwarves
> can only get up to level 8 as thieves. I generally don't use level limits
> but
> I was wondering why this NPC doesn't. There are probably other ones too.
> Are
> NPCs not bound by those restrictions/
>
There is an option in the DMG that allows for exceeding demihuman level limits
at double the normal cost...

- -DKE

[Solmyr]

>Perhaps he does, but with optional rules listed in the DMG.
>First of all, if his Dextarity is ?16? he gets two bonus levels to his
>level limit (see chart down and to the right of level limits chart).
>
Checking the Baruk-Azhik sourcebook, Diirk indeed has Dex 16.

******************
Aleksei Andrievski
aka Solmyr, Archmage of the Azure Star
Visit the Archmage's Tower at
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Fortress/2198/index.html

[Jim Cooper]

Aleksei Andrievski wrote:
> >Perhaps he does, but with optional rules listed in the DMG.
> >First of all, if his Dextarity is ?16? he gets two bonus levels to hislevel limit (see chart down and to the right of level limits chart).
> Checking the Baruk-Azhik sourcebook, Diirk indeed has Dex 16.

Thats something I've always wondered about ---

When creating a character, the PCs stats have to fall within the min/max
ranges of the particular species. Now for a dwarf DEX its 3/16.

My question is this: Do you take off racial adjustments before or after
you've got the total for you DEX when making a dwarf character?

That probably isn't quite clear, so here's an example:

Dan wants to play a dwarf named Dave. Dave the Dwarf has gotten lucky
and rolled (5) 18s and (1) 17. He put the 17 in Dave's CHR stat.
However, Dave notices that he doesn't have anything less than 16, which
is the max DEX a PC wanting to play a dwarf has to have to select the
race. Dan now notices that Cerilian dwarves receive a -2 modifier to
their DEX stat in step *2* of the character gen process. That would
bring Dave's DEX down to 16, if the line in step *1* of the BR book
didn't say: "If a character doesn't meet the racial ability
requirements, a different race must be chosen." [page 4 under character
race]. ??? Does this mean that a player can only chose to play a dwarf
character if their DEX is 16 or less BEFORE racial ability adjustments
are taken off?

If this were true, then good 'ol Diirk could never have gotten a 16 DEX,
since a dwarf can only have 14 max in the attribute after racial ability
adjustments are taken off. (Unless, of course, wishes were involved --
but I like that explanation even less).

I'm I incorrectly interpreting how one follows numerical steps (I
always thought 1 comes before 2, but ... ) or is this another
discrepancy in the BR rules?!?

Confused here in Cyberland,
Darren

[Jan Arnoldus]

At 18:38 11-06-98 +0300, you wrote:
>>Perhaps he does, but with optional rules listed in the DMG.
>>First of all, if his Dextarity is ?16? he gets two bonus levels to his
>>level limit (see chart down and to the right of level limits chart).
>>
>Checking the Baruk-Azhik sourcebook, Diirk indeed has Dex 16.
>
And again this is in contradiction to the rules since a Birthright Dwarf can
normally only have a max DEX of 14. !!!*
A blooded dwarf with the Brenna derivation and the heightened ability
bloodpower could add 1d6 to his dex score if the base score id lower than 14
(for a potential DEX of 19) or add one poit if the score is 14 (for a DEX 15
score)
Diirk has an Anduiras derivation so the dex score is another goof on the
part of TSR.

That's why there are so many dwarven guilders (prime INT), instead of
thieves(prime DEX).

Jan Arnoldus

*This is correct only 14. Remember when rolled the score must first lie
between the racial min/max (Table1 page4) and then the racial modifier
(Table2 page4) is applied.
For dwarven dex this means 16-2=14 for the maximum score.

[Jan Arnoldus]

At 11:56 11-06-98 -0700, you wrote:

>Thats something I've always wondered about ---
>
>When creating a character, the PCs stats have to fall within the min/max
>ranges of the particular species. Now for a dwarf DEX its 3/16.
>
>My question is this: Do you take off racial adjustments before or after
>you've got the total for you DEX when making a dwarf character?
>
> I'm I incorrectly interpreting how one follows numerical steps (I
>always thought 1 comes before 2, but ... ) or is this another
>discrepancy in the BR rules?!?
>
>Confused here in Cyberland,
>Darren

Your interpretation is the correct one in both the PHB (page20)and the
Birthright rulebook (page4) it explicitly says that you first check wether
your scores are between the racial minima and maxima and then adjust these
scores with the racial ability adjustments.
The racial adjustments may raise or lower the ability scores beyond the
racial minma and maxima, however, an anility score can't be lowered beyond 3.

Hope this helps,

Jan Arnoldus

[The Olesen`s]

Jim Cooper wrote:
>
> Aleksei Andrievski wrote:
> > >Perhaps he does, but with optional rules listed in the DMG.
> > >First of all, if his Dextarity is ?16? he gets two bonus levels to hislevel limit (see chart down and to the right of level limits chart).
> > Checking the Baruk-Azhik sourcebook, Diirk indeed has Dex 16.
>
> Thats something I've always wondered about ---
>
> When creating a character, the PCs stats have to fall within the min/max
> ranges of the particular species. Now for a dwarf DEX its 3/16.
>
> My question is this: Do you take off racial adjustments before or after
> you've got the total for you DEX when making a dwarf character?


They are called ractial REQIREMENTS for a reson.

A charachter's stats must fit in between the given numbers.

A charachter with charisma 3 couldn't be an elf.

In your example, the PC couldn't be a dwarf

[fhilbrandt]

The limits on stats is BEFORE any racial adjustments. That's stated
clearly in the rules. However...Something could have raised his DEX after
creation.

The rules don't always apply to NPCs.

Fred Hilbrandt
fredrick.hilbrandt@worldnet.att.net


- ----------
> From: Jim Cooper
> To: birthright@MPGN.COM
> Subject: Re: [BIRTHRIGHT] - Racial level limits in BR, why aren't they
followed?
> Date: Thursday, June 11, 1998 2:56 PM
>
> Aleksei Andrievski wrote:
> > >Perhaps he does, but with optional rules listed in the DMG.
> > >First of all, if his Dextarity is ?16? he gets two bonus levels to
hislevel limit (see chart down and to the right of level limits chart).
> > Checking the Baruk-Azhik sourcebook, Diirk indeed has Dex 16.
>
> Thats something I've always wondered about ---
>
> When creating a character, the PCs stats have to fall within the min/max
> ranges of the particular species. Now for a dwarf DEX its 3/16.
>
> My question is this: Do you take off racial adjustments before or after
> you've got the total for you DEX when making a dwarf character?
>
> That probably isn't quite clear, so here's an example:
>
> Dan wants to play a dwarf named Dave. Dave the Dwarf has gotten lucky
> and rolled (5) 18s and (1) 17. He put the 17 in Dave's CHR stat.
> However, Dave notices that he doesn't have anything less than 16, which
> is the max DEX a PC wanting to play a dwarf has to have to select the
> race. Dan now notices that Cerilian dwarves receive a -2 modifier to
> their DEX stat in step *2* of the character gen process. That would
> bring Dave's DEX down to 16, if the line in step *1* of the BR book
> didn't say: "If a character doesn't meet the racial ability
> requirements, a different race must be chosen." [page 4 under character
> race]. ??? Does this mean that a player can only chose to play a dwarf
> character if their DEX is 16 or less BEFORE racial ability adjustments
> are taken off?
>
> If this were true, then good 'ol Diirk could never have gotten a 16 DEX,
> since a dwarf can only have 14 max in the attribute after racial ability
> adjustments are taken off. (Unless, of course, wishes were involved --
> but I like that explanation even less).
>
> I'm I incorrectly interpreting how one follows numerical steps (I
> always thought 1 comes before 2, but ... ) or is this another
> discrepancy in the BR rules?!?
>
> Confused here in Cyberland,
> Darren
>
>> To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the
line
> 'unsubscribe birthright' as the body of the message.

[The Olesen`s]

Fredrick Hilbrandt wrote:
>
> The limits on stats is BEFORE any racial adjustments. That's stated
> clearly in the rules. However...Something could have raised his DEX after
> creation.
>
> The rules don't always apply to NPCs.
>
> Fred Hilbrandt
> fredrick.hilbrandt@worldnet.att.net


Well the rules apply to everyone but there are ways to get around them.
(ie a Dwarf who found an amulet of instant Dextarity that raised his Dex
five points to 19.)
HOW the NPC gets around them is unimportant. Following the rules
exactly for everyone gets kinda boring. Why not throw in a Vos paladin?
or an elf who left the elven wood to live with humans and became a
priest? They also keep plays on thier toes (look an dwarf! Hmm lets
see, he could either be a priest, fighter, or thief. He is carrying a
battleaxe so he is not a thief. Hmm. Lets look up the gods for
dwarves...he is wearing a red tunic...Aha! God of War, her priests must
always wear red tunics. And must use weapons of medium or larger size
and must have some piercing or slashing edge...All the other gods's
priests must wear other garments or can't use battle axes. So that makes
him a dwarf fighter...Better use my rod since it givest him the worst
saving throw...remember to use slashing/piercing...don't use magic...use
bows.

Well anyway this has been a short demostration of how the immage of a
dwarf wearing a red tunic and carrying a battleaxe can be used to
determine exactly what class he is, what spells (if any) are best, and
how to attack him.

But if he deveated from the basic rules he could be a Dwarf Ranger (a
demi-ranger to be exact, see ranger's handbook) and have three thrid
level (and more second and first level) priest spells and be a Mountian
Man with the usual Will to live.

Oh well, this is getting kinda long. Bye for now.

[veryfastperson@juno.com]

>In your example, the PC couldn't be a dwarf

"Sorry, but you spent too much time stretching, and your character
is too nimble. you cannot be a dwarf."

I guess this is where my house rules would override the "printed" rules.
I don't like the fact that (however unlikely) a character rolls really
good, that he cannot be a given race. why shouldn't a dwarf have a dex of
15 or better? i think that this is just a silly rule. of course, this is
all IMHO, and some are bound to disagree with me :)

Regards,
Erik

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[Jim Cooper]

The Olesen's wrote:
>
> Jim Cooper wrote:
> >
> > Aleksei Andrievski wrote:
> > > >Perhaps he does, but with optional rules listed in the DMG.
> > > >First of all, if his Dextarity is ?16? he gets two bonus levels to hislevel limit (see chart down and to the right of level limits chart).
> > > Checking the Baruk-Azhik sourcebook, Diirk indeed has Dex 16.
> >
> > Thats something I've always wondered about ---
> >
> > When creating a character, the PCs stats have to fall within the min/max
> > ranges of the particular species. Now for a dwarf DEX its 3/16.
> >
> > My question is this: Do you take off racial adjustments before or after
> > you've got the total for you DEX when making a dwarf character?
>
> They are called ractial REQIREMENTS for a reson.
>
> A charachter's stats must fit in between the given numbers.
>
> A charachter with charisma 3 couldn't be an elf.
>
> In your example, the PC couldn't be a dwarf

Right, so Diirk couldn't have DEX 16 right? (Certainly not with
Anduiras' bloodline)

Cheers,
Darren

[The Olesen`s]

Erik M Samhammer wrote:
>
> >In your example, the PC couldn't be a dwarf
>
> "Sorry, but you spent too much time stretching, and your character
> is too nimble. you cannot be a dwarf."
>
> I guess this is where my house rules would override the "printed" rules.
> I don't like the fact that (however unlikely) a character rolls really
> good, that he cannot be a given race. why shouldn't a dwarf have a dex of
> 15 or better? i think that this is just a silly rule. of course, this is
> all IMHO, and some are bound to disagree with me :)
>
> Regards,
> Erik


If your DM lets you (or if you are DM and want to) you can be any class
or race. Why not a VERY ugly elf? a elf priest?

[Trizt]

On 10-Jun-98, Suiriene@aol.com (Suiriene@aol.com) wrote about [BIRTHRIGHT] -
Racial level limits in BR, why aren't they followed?:
- ->Recently, I was looking at Diirk Watershold(Royal Guild of Baruk-Azhik). He
- ->is a level 10 thief. Then I looked at the racial level limits chart.
Dwarves
- ->can only get up to level 8 as thieves. I generally don't use level limits
but
- ->I was wondering why this NPC doesn't. There are probably other ones too.
Are
- ->NPCs not bound by those restrictions/

I would guess that the person creating this NPC didn't know anything about the
racial level limit. It's not unusual, it's really common, that demihumn NPC's
are way above the level limits, even if you would use the bonus levels for
high ability scores.

//Trizt of Ward^RITE

-

[DKEvermore@aol.co]

In a message dated 98-06-11 15:47:36 EDT, you write:

> *This is correct only 14. Remember when rolled the score must first lie
> between the racial min/max (Table1 page4) and then the racial modifier
> (Table2 page4) is applied.
> For dwarven dex this means 16-2=14 for the maximum score.
>
I have to disagree. Those min/max figures are meant as a guide to show you
what happens when you apply the normal pernalties/pluses from the racial table
below. To take a rolled Dex of 18 down to 16, and then applying a penalty to
make 14 is doubling up on the intended penalties. It also proves the stat
ranges represented in the first table as wrong. It CLEARLY states that the
range for dex is 3 to 16. How can a dwarf obtain a 16 if he must throw out
any roll of 17 or 18 and THEN subtract 2?

- -DKE

[Mathieu Roy]

DKEvermore@aol.com wrote:
> I have to disagree. Those min/max figures are meant as a guide to show you
> what happens when you apply the normal pernalties/pluses from the racial table
> below. To take a rolled Dex of 18 down to 16, and then applying a penalty to
> make 14 is doubling up on the intended penalties. It also proves the stat
> ranges represented in the first table as wrong. It CLEARLY states that the
> range for dex is 3 to 16. How can a dwarf obtain a 16 if he must throw out
> any roll of 17 or 18 and THEN subtract 2?

In that case, why isn't the table showing the 19s and 20s for increased
ability
scores? How come halflings, who have -2 Str, are listed as having 18 STR
maximum?
I think the tables were intended like the others have said, first fit
into Table
1 and then apply modifiers. Though if someone rolled too well to fit in
the race of
his choice, I'd probably let him reduce his ability scores to fit. ;)

Mathieu Roy

[DKEvermore@aol.co]

In a message dated 98-06-12 10:54:43 EDT, you write:

> In that case, why isn't the table showing the 19s and 20s for increased
> ability
> scores? How come halflings, who have -2 Str, are listed as having 18 STR
> maximum?
>
See, this is what I get for answer postings without the rulebook handy. ;)

Perhaps, I'll concede your point then, and rephrase my position based on what
I have done with my own campaign: Generally, I ignore the table with the
maximums and minimums regarding it as only a loose guideline. I prefer to
apply the racial mods only, as it allows for the greatest possible variety of
stats within each race. Besides, depending on the method you use to have
people roll characters, the table with mins/maxes may not work well without
adjusting them.

- -DKE

[The Olesen`s]

Trizt wrote:
>
> On 12-Jun-98, breye@earthlink.net (breye@earthlink.net) wrote about Re:
> [BIRTHRIGHT] - Racial level limits in BR, why aren't they followed?:
>
> ->> are way above the level limits, even if you would use the bonus levels for
> ->> high ability scores.
>
> ->demihuman(or whatever...) who reaches the level limit then pays double the
> xps
> ->to rise to the next level.
>
> I have thought to do the same, but haven't had the need of making any
> decission yet, as my players don't play demihumans. I'm quite sure I will put
> in a level limit for humans too as I see them to powerful as they are now.


Most likly limit Magaians and Mages as those are the most un-human
classes (well as un-human as they get).

[Trizt]

On 12-Jun-98, breye@earthlink.net (breye@earthlink.net) wrote about Re:
[BIRTHRIGHT] - Racial level limits in BR, why aren't they followed?:

- ->> are way above the level limits, even if you would use the bonus levels for
- ->> high ability scores.

- ->demihuman(or whatever...) who reaches the level limit then pays double the
xps
- ->to rise to the next level.

I have thought to do the same, but haven't had the need of making any
decission yet, as my players don't play demihumans. I'm quite sure I will put
in a level limit for humans too as I see them to powerful as they are now.

//Trizt of Ward^RITE

--------------------
E-Mail: trizt@iname.com URL: http://www.ukko.dyn.ml.org/~trizt/
Nick : Trizt IRC: irc.kuai.se:5278 Channel: #Opers
MUD: callandor.imaginary.com 5317
--------------------

[Shade]

> I'm I incorrectly interpreting how one follows numerical steps (I
>always thought 1 comes before 2, but ... ) or is this another
>discrepancy in the BR rules?!?
>
>Confused here in Cyberland,
>Darren

Probably another discrepancy.

Seriously, I've never enforced min/max racial numbers unless the stat was
outrageous. And usually you don't get outrageous stats on normal characters.