Humans, elves and spellcasters

[Rasmus Juul Wagner]

>

> >> then I even made 1 in every 5 elves a wizard (same chance of being
> >> wizard as a human adventurer from the Monstous Manual. If I had used the
> >> figures from the elven part then 1 of every 40 elves would have been a
> >> wizard) and that gave me 6 wizards in a population of 16.000.

I hope you mean 1 in 5 _classed and levelled_ elves.

>

IMC, the figures are something like this:
1 out of 100 humans are blooded. 1 out of 100 nobles becomes a mage
(that's 1 out of 10,000 humans - matches well with the "eight dozen or
so" true mages that are supposed to live in Anuire).
1 out of 10 nobles becomes a magician. It's far easier to be a magician
than a mage IMC.
1 out of 1,000 commoners becomes a magician.

Among elves, 1 in 100 becomes a magician, and 1 out of 10 magicians
become mages. That's around 10 times the concentration of magic that
humans have, and maybe it's on the generous side. The BR book states
that mages are fairly rare even among elves.

As for priests, approximately 1 in 500 becomes a spellcasting priest.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Preemptive Retribution"

Rasmus Juul Wagner
Technical University of Denmark
c958650@student.dtu.dk
www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Stadium/7859
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[Belgariad]

This is my first reply, but I felt that after 6 months I sound put in my 2
cents worth.

I won't disagree with the numbers that you use for calculating the amount of
true magic users per capita. What I have always used in my games is that
magic is so prevalent in the elven life, that almost every member of the race
has an understanding and ability in it. I also find that elven magus are a
cut above, and have devoted themselves to it in a more detailed way. The
greater population uses their magic in what could be described as an innate
ability, using it without much thought. Such spells as Cantrips, Feather
Fall, light, etc.. ( I hope you get where I'm trying to take this). Whereas
true magic users take the time to harness those abilities, to a 'fine edge'.
There by taking a path of greater ability and power.

Well, I'm done preaching to the choir. I await your comments.

Vince G. (It's time to thin the herd)

[Ryan B. Caveney]

On Fri, 15 May 1998, Rasmus Juul Wagner wrote:
>
> Among elves, 1 in 100 becomes a magician, and 1 out of 10 magicians

Elves don't become magicians (the class is listed as human only,
but goblins are also allowed according to the goblin card), because they
don't need to. Since they can all cast true magic, they may as well just
become specialist diviners or illusionists. (Yes, I know the BR book says
wizards can't specialize in those two things, but that's silly for elves
who could then theoretically specialize in necromancy or evocation but not
illusion or divination.)

- --Ryan

[Ryan B. Caveney]

On Fri, 15 May 1998, Belgariad wrote:

> What I have always used in my games is that magic is so prevalent in the
> elven life, that almost every member of the race has an understanding
> and ability in it.

This is my thought, and apparently Simon Hawke's (_The Iron
Throne_) as well. It also definitely fits with the "creatures of faerie
dust and starlight" concept of the rulebook.

> greater population uses their magic in what could be described as an innate
> ability, using it without much thought. Such spells as Cantrips, Feather
> Fall, light, etc.. ( I hope you get where I'm trying to take this).

The drow innate spell list, slightly modified. A good plan.

> true magic users take the time to harness those abilities, to a 'fine edge'.
> There by taking a path of greater ability and power.

One thing we haven't really looked at yet in this discussion of
elven magic is what they do with it. Given their interests, I think
for every Sidhelien archmage who knows a battle spell, there are several
who only use their spells to do topiary. If there were a major war on,
they could be taught combat magic, but would be much more inclined to
develop spells of their own that caused a whole army's weapons to turn
into musical instruments and bunches of flowers, or just drop everything,
have a big party, and go home magically drunk without actually having
fought at all (a la the giant joint scene in "History of the World").
As an example, look at the "Revenge of the Sidhelien" realm spell
from the netbook (http://darkstar.cyberserv.com/netbook/realm/realm13.html)
which polymorphs enemy units into cute fluffy bunnies and suchlike.

- --Ryan

[Gary V. Foss]

Ryan B. Caveney wrote:

> Elves don't become magicians (the class is listed as human only,
> but goblins are also allowed according to the goblin card), because they
> don't need to. Since they can all cast true magic, they may as well just
> become specialist diviners or illusionists. (Yes, I know the BR book says
> wizards can't specialize in those two things, but that's silly for elves
> who could then theoretically specialize in necromancy or evocation but not
> illusion or divination.)

I don't know. I rather think non-blooded individuals (or blooded ones, for
that matter) should be allowed to be either specialist illusionists or
deviners. I've made this argument before on this board, so I'm not going to
reprise it, but it makes perfect sense ot me.

Of course, the illusionist speciality is supposed to be restricted to humans or
gnomes, but what the heck? I don't see why an elven wizard should not be
allowed to specialize.

Anyway, my whole argument came about because of a non-blooded character, a
bard, in my campaign. He had a high enough intelligence and dexterity to
dual-class to a specialized illusionist, but could not become a magician
because that class' prime requisites are intelligence and wisdom. After some
consideration, I couldn't come up with a reason for there not to be
illusionists in a BR campaign, so I allowed it.

Laters,
Gary

[Gary V. Foss]

Ryan B. Caveney wrote:

> On Fri, 15 May 1998, Belgariad wrote:
>
> > What I have always used in my games is that magic is so prevalent in the
> > elven life, that almost every member of the race has an understanding
> > and ability in it.
>
> This is my thought, and apparently Simon Hawke's (_The Iron
> Throne_) as well. It also definitely fits with the "creatures of faerie
> dust and starlight" concept of the rulebook.

Personally, I like to think of the elven use of magic as being more similar to our
modern outlook towards technology. We're used to its presence around us, we toy
around with it from time to time and use it to our advantage, but relatively few
of use could take apart a microwave oven and explain exactly how it works. That's
what a mage would be in an elven community. A pointy-eared techie with flowers in
his hair and a penchant for green hosiery.

> > greater population uses their magic in what could be described as an innate
> > ability, using it without much thought. Such spells as Cantrips, Feather
> > Fall, light, etc.. ( I hope you get where I'm trying to take this).
>
> The drow innate spell list, slightly modified. A good plan.

Hmmm. I like the idea of elves having a few more powers than the "mundane" ones
listed in the Rulebook, but I don't know if I want them to actually be able to
cast spells by their very nature.

> Given their interests, I think
> for every Sidhelien archmage who knows a battle spell, there are several
> who only use their spells to do topiary. If there were a major war on,
> they could be taught combat magic, but would be much more inclined to
> develop spells of their own that caused a whole army's weapons to turn
> into musical instruments and bunches of flowers, or just drop everything,
> have a big party, and go home magically drunk without actually having
> fought at all (a la the giant joint scene in "History of the World").

Ha! Oh, man! Ryan, you slay me! I about laughed myself sick at that image.
Elven kingdoms filled with poodle-trees and swan-bushes! That's killer funny.

In fairness, however, I don't see why elven mages wouldnt' have come up with
battle magic before human ones. Part of what I like about the BR setting is that
it reinterprets elves, making them allied with nature but not necessarily the
flitty, faerie-like creatures that some folks like to portray them. BR elves can
be pretty dark, nasty folks which is just fine by me.

Laters,
Gary

[Ryan B. Caveney]

On Fri, 15 May 1998, Gary V. Foss wrote:

> Personally, I like to think of the elven use of magic as being more similar to our
> modern outlook towards technology. We're used to its presence around us, we toy
> around with it from time to time and use it to our advantage, but relatively few
> of use could take apart a microwave oven and explain exactly how it works. That's
> what a mage would be in an elven community. A pointy-eared techie with flowers in
> his hair and a penchant for green hosiery.

Oh, this is good! This analogy I *like*.

> Hmmm. I like the idea of elves having a few more powers than the "mundane" ones
> listed in the Rulebook, but I don't know if I want them to actually be able to
> cast spells by their very nature.

Sure, I don't want them casting damage-doing spells just by
wanting to, either! I'm talking about minor bits of glamour, here:
keeping your hair nicely coiffed even in high winds, keeping your shirt
looking newly-pressed even when wet, dusting your coffetable, that sort of
thing. Cantrips, basically. But *everywhere*. I also sort of envision
virtually all housecleaning being done by unseen servants, and almost all
lighting provided by variable-brightness continual light lamps (especially
as torches in treehouses are a really bad idea).

> Ha! Oh, man! Ryan, you slay me! I about laughed myself sick at that image.
> Elven kingdoms filled with poodle-trees and swan-bushes! That's killer funny.

Thank you! My point is basically that while humans think
magic is scary and dangerous and to be reserved only for emergencies,
elves do everything they can with magic, because it's beautiful and fun.
Elven wizards use spells to sculpt living wood, make actual flea circuses,
and otherwise beautify their world and entertain themselves and their
neighbors. The Cormanthyr book has some nice touches (and some things
that are way too powerful, and others that might be modified into realm
spells), like the Wall of Force variant that makes a small, controllably-
air-permeable sheet of solid magic for use as a windowpane.
The idea is that elven habitations should be weird and wonderful
places, through the use of magic dedicated to making them so. So while
elves I feel have much more magical power than humans do, they make use of
it very differently... most of the time.

> In fairness, however, I don't see why elven mages wouldnt' have come up with
> battle magic before human ones. Part of what I like about the BR setting is that
> it reinterprets elves, making them allied with nature but not necessarily the
> flitty, faerie-like creatures that some folks like to portray them. BR elves can
> be pretty dark, nasty folks which is just fine by me.

I agree! Some silly flower-children are nice for comic relief,
but many of the other elves should see them that way, too. And they can
be combined in the same individual: a bunch of rowdy humans interrupting a
wizard's magical Punch-and-Judy show for the local elven kindergarten
should not be surprised to be blasted into pink mist in the same breath
as the wizard a makes a joke to the children about doing so.

- --Ryan

[KirbyRanma]

In a message dated 98-05-15 04:23:46 EDT, you write:



Is this for human and dwarven priests only or include elf priests? I
thought Birthright elves didn't have priests because they didn't have gods?

Take care all,
Kirby
"Player extraordinaire"

[Rasmus Juul Wagner]

Ryan B. Caveney wrote:
>
> On Fri, 15 May 1998, Rasmus Juul Wagner wrote:
> >
> > Among elves, 1 in 100 becomes a magician, and 1 out of 10 magicians
>
> Elves don't become magicians (the class is listed as human only,
> but goblins are also allowed according to the goblin card), because they
> don't need to.

Silly me...well, it's been a long time since I read that part of the
rulebook. Anyways, IMC, more elves are magicians than wizards, as it is
simpler to be a magician. Apart from that, many elves learn a spell or
to which they can cast in magic-rich areas, such as their native
forests.

Since they can all cast true magic, they may as well just
> become specialist diviners or illusionists. (Yes, I know the BR book says
> wizards can't specialize in those two things, but that's silly for elves
> who could then theoretically specialize in necromancy or evocation but not
> illusion or divination.)
>
> --Ryan
>
> ************************************************** *************************
> > - --
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Preemptive Retribution"

Rasmus Juul Wagner
Technical University of Denmark
c958650@student.dtu.dk
www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Stadium/7859
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[Ryan B. Caveney]

On Sun, 17 May 1998, Rasmus Juul Wagner wrote:

> it is simpler to be a magician.

Not if you're blooded or elven! Being a wizard requires Int 9;
being a magician requires Int 12, Dex 12 and Wis 14. So among the Rjurik,
for example (the only race which doesn't modify any of those stats),
133/216 = 61.6% have the stats to be a wizard, but only 81*81*35/216^3 =
2.28% have the stats to be a magician! Thus, even counting the fact that
being a human wizard requires a bloodline, which only one person in a
hundred has, there are less than four (3.7) times as many people eligible
to be magicians as there are to be wizards. Among elves, since their
intelligence is always at least nine, there are far more people eligible
to become wizards than magicians.
Indeed, the class description states "magicians must work much
harder at their craft than true mages; magicians lack the innate magical
ability that characters of elven descent and scions of the bloodlines
harbor." (BR rulebook 12) IMC (thank you whoever I first saw use that!),
I emphasize this by giving magicians longer casting times; in my
interpretation, wizards just sort of reach through their natural
connection to the mebhaighl and nudge it in certain directions largely by
force of will, whereas magicians need the focus of complicated ritual and
the extra energy contained in more and rarer material components.
I do not apply these restrictions to priests, because in that case it is
the deity who does all the real work.

- --Ryan

[Gary V. Foss]

Ryan B. Caveney wrote:

> Thus, even counting the fact that
> being a human wizard requires a bloodline, which only one person in a
> hundred has

I've seen a couple of people use the 1/100 number for the amount of Cerilians
who have a bloodline. I thought it was one in one thousand. I could have
sworn the population statistics in the Muden sourcebook bear me out, but I
don't much feeling like digging through my stuff to find my print out of it.
Am I off my nut on this?

- -Gary

[veryfastperson@juno.com]

>I've seen a couple of people use the 1/100 number for the amount of
>Cerilians
>who have a bloodline. I thought it was one in one thousand. I could
>have
>sworn the population statistics in the Muden sourcebook bear me out,
>but I
>don't much feeling like digging through my stuff to find my print out
>of it.
>Am I off my nut on this?
>
>-Gary

i think it was the rulebook that said that 1% of the population has a
bloodline.

>
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[Pieter A de Jong]

At 07:38 PM 5/15/98 -0700, Gary V. Foss wrote:

>Personally, I like to think of the elven use of magic as being more similar
to our
>modern outlook towards technology. We're used to its presence around us,
we toy
>around with it from time to time and use it to our advantage, but
relatively few
>of use could take apart a microwave oven and explain exactly how it works.
That's
>what a mage would be in an elven community. A pointy-eared techie with
flowers in
>his hair and a penchant for green hosiery.
>
Yes, few of us could take apart a microwave oven, but just about everyone
can use one, or a shotgun, or a radio. Or at least can be taught to use one
in 15 minutes. Also, such an attitude implies a rather large supply of
magic items if the individual elves don't cast spells.

>> > greater population uses their magic in what could be described as an innate
>> > ability, using it without much thought. Such spells as Cantrips, Feather
>> > Fall, light, etc.. ( I hope you get where I'm trying to take this).
>>
>> The drow innate spell list, slightly modified. A good plan.
>
>Hmmm. I like the idea of elves having a few more powers than the "mundane"
ones
>listed in the Rulebook, but I don't know if I want them to actually be able to
>cast spells by their very nature.
>
>> Given their interests, I think
>> for every Sidhelien archmage who knows a battle spell, there are several
>> who only use their spells to do topiary. If there were a major war on,
>> they could be taught combat magic, but would be much more inclined to
>> develop spells of their own that caused a whole army's weapons to turn
>> into musical instruments and bunches of flowers, or just drop everything,
>> have a big party, and go home magically drunk without actually having
>> fought at all (a la the giant joint scene in "History of the World").
>
>Ha! Oh, man! Ryan, you slay me! I about laughed myself sick at that image.
>Elven kingdoms filled with poodle-trees and swan-bushes! That's killer funny.
>
>In fairness, however, I don't see why elven mages wouldnt' have come up with
>battle magic before human ones. Part of what I like about the BR setting
is that
>it reinterprets elves, making them allied with nature but not necessarily the
>flitty, faerie-like creatures that some folks like to portray them. BR
elves can
>be pretty dark, nasty folks which is just fine by me.
>
Yes, another person who agrees! Elves are not neccesarily peacenik hippies.
Don't forget it might just not be normal topiary, see various wierd plants
back in issue ?87? of dragon magazine. Not to mention sundews, vegepygmies,
mold men, assorted other dangerous plants, hangman tree anyone?

Pieter A de Jong
Graduate Mechanical Engineering Student
University of Saskatchewan, Saskatoon, Canada

[Pieter A de Jong]

At 11:57 AM 5/17/98 +0200, Ramus Juul Wagner wrote:
>Ryan B. Caveney wrote:
>>
>> On Fri, 15 May 1998, Rasmus Juul Wagner wrote:
>> >
>> > Among elves, 1 in 100 becomes a magician, and 1 out of 10 magicians
>>
>> Elves don't become magicians (the class is listed as human only,
>> but goblins are also allowed according to the goblin card), because they
>> don't need to.
>
>Silly me...well, it's been a long time since I read that part of the
>rulebook. Anyways, IMC, more elves are magicians than wizards, as it is
>simpler to be a magician. Apart from that, many elves learn a spell or
>to which they can cast in magic-rich areas, such as their native
>forests.
>
Actually, as wierd as it seems, it is easier for an elf to be a wizard
(requirements, Int. >= 9) as opposed to a magician (requirements, Int. >=
12, Wis. >= 13, Dex. >= 12)

Pieter A de Jong
Graduate Mechanical Engineering Student
University of Saskatchewan, Saskatoon, Canada

[Gary V. Foss]

Pieter A de Jong wrote:

> At 07:38 PM 5/15/98 -0700, Gary V. Foss wrote:
>
> >Personally, I like to think of the elven use of magic as being more similar
> to our
> >modern outlook towards technology. We're used to its presence around us,
> we toy
> >around with it from time to time and use it to our advantage, but
> relatively few
> >of use could take apart a microwave oven and explain exactly how it works.
> That's
> >what a mage would be in an elven community. A pointy-eared techie with
> flowers in
> >his hair and a penchant for green hosiery.
> >
> Yes, few of us could take apart a microwave oven, but just about everyone
> can use one, or a shotgun, or a radio. Or at least can be taught to use one
> in 15 minutes.

I don't know, I think the analogy still holds. Casting a spell to me is more like
the process of building the aforementioned microwave oven, shotgun or radio from
scratch. In a D&D context, just about anybody could probably do the last few things
that are required to cast a spell during the few segments that make up its casting
time....

"That's right, Og. Stand on one foot, wave your right hand in the air, chant 'Boom
shalak lak boom!" and rub the bit of fur against the piece of steel. That's how you
cast a Lightning Bolt spell."

What differentiates a mage from a fighter is the ability to memorize a spell. It
requires an understanding of magic itself, the rituals and energies involved, and
whatever else it takes to memorize a spell that a "normal" person lacks and a mage
has. That's what makes a spellcaster a spellcaster. The understanding of magic
itself.

> Also, such an attitude implies a rather large supply of
> magic items if the individual elves don't cast spell

Well, I don't mean to imply that there are a lot of magic ITEMS in elven
communities. Rather, elves live their lives in a more magical environment. They
work with it more. The earth itself is magical in a BR setting, right? Elves are
more in touch with that. As individuals they may not have the ability to manipulate
it (like mages) but as a community they are attuned to it.

> >In fairness, however, I don't see why elven mages wouldnt' have come up with
> >battle magic before human ones. Part of what I like about the BR setting
> is that
> >it reinterprets elves, making them allied with nature but not necessarily the
> >flitty, faerie-like creatures that some folks like to portray them. BR
> elves can
> >be pretty dark, nasty folks which is just fine by me.
> >
> Yes, another person who agrees! Elves are not neccesarily peacenik hippies.
> Don't forget it might just not be normal topiary, see various wierd plants
> back in issue ?87? of dragon magazine. Not to mention sundews, vegepygmies,
> mold men, assorted other dangerous plants, hangman tree anyone?

I really like the dark, brooding image of elves in BR. It's still kinda funny to
poke fun at elves, though. Particularly since they get such a cutsey portrayal in
almost every other campaign setting and in the fantasy literature that comes out.
If I read the words "songs of unearthly beauty" again I think I'm going to toss my
_lembas_.

Gary