What if...?

[anacreon]

Since killing a scion with the blood of Azrai (especially an awnshegh) may turn the slayer into an awnshegh himself, what would happen if someone who already is an ehrshegh slays such a person? What would happen to the Fae if she manages to kill the Gorgon?

[tcharazazel]

heheh, maybe becomes the dark fae?

[ConjurerDragon]

anacreon schrieb:



>This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.

> You can view the entire thread at:

> http://www.birthright.net/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=2&t=2710

>

> anacreon wrote:

> Since killing a scion with the blood of Azrai (especially an awnshegh) may turn the slayer into an awnshegh himself, what would happen if someone who already is an ehrshegh slays such a person? What would happen to the Fae if she manages to kill the Gorgon?

>

She becomes stoned.

bye

Michael

[geeman]

At 08:30 AM 6/29/2004 +0200, anacreon wrote:



>Since killing a scion with the blood of Azrai (especially an awnshegh) may

>turn the slayer into an awnshegh himself, what would happen if someone who

>already is an ehrshegh slays such a person? What would happen to the Fae

>if she manages to kill the Gorgon?



The BoR indicates that there is a chance that a scion whose bloodline is

corrupted by Azrai`s in an act of bloodtheft against an awnshegh will take

on characteristics of the awnshegh he slew. However, in the case of an

ershegh who has existing transformations I don`t think that need

necessarily be the case, especially if the theme of the slain awnshegh is

very different from that of the ershegh who killed him. That`s not to say

the character would be unaltered. In your example, I think the character

would remain, essentially, "the Fae" but she`d turn into a dark and

degenerate version of that same basic theme. One could compare such a

character to Rhoubhe Manslayer who is a kind of perverse--almost

parodic--version Sidhe hatred for humanity. "Dark Fae" (awnfae?) would be

a kind of warped sylvan creature who remains connected to the nature that

surrounds her but in an essentially unwholesome manner.



If you think about almost all the awnsheghlien there`s really no reason why

they have to have Azrai`s bloodline rather than some other. In a few

cases, it seems like the awnshegh would be just as apt as ershegh. I`m

thinking of the Siren and the Wolf in particular. The character

descriptions for those awnsheghlien make them out to be benign or even

benevolent. Several other awnsheghlien could be reinterpreted (or, rather,

another character with the same theme might be imagined) that is not

corrupted but elevated by the transformation. I`ve fiddled around with an

ershegh that is much like the Gorgon in many regards, but isn`t evil or

corrupt in the way that character is. I don`t know if that ershegh will

get its own write up, but it is definitely possible to do something like

that. Point being that an ershegh corrupted by Azrai`s bloodline could

simply be redefined to fit that new, degenerate role.



Gary

[A_dark]

I think it would depend on the reasons that the killing was made.... Did she kill the Gorgon to boast about it? Then turn her into an evil awnie. Did she kill him in self-defense? Do nothing... Did she kill him to save an innocent child or whatever? Reward her :D

Also, in the case of bloodtheft, why did she bloodtheft him? Didn't she do it for power? Is that not greedy on her behalf? Should she not be punished for it? (for some reason, greed and powerlust should not be the goals of a good ehrshegh..)So, actually..., if she bloodthefts the Gorgon, she chose to do it to gain power and that is not good... She has to pay for dat :D

[anacreon]

Originally posted by A_dark@Jun 30 2004, 01:57 AM
IAlso, in the case of bloodtheft, why did she bloodtheft him? Didn't she do it for power? Is that not greedy on her behalf? Should she not be punished for it? (for some reason, greed and powerlust should not be the goals of a good ehrshegh..)So, actually..., if she bloodthefts the Gorgon, she chose to do it to gain power and that is not good... She has to pay for dat :D
hmmm... Where does it say that one has to commit bloodtheft in order to be so corrupted? The BoR only says: "When a non-awnshegh kills one of these powerful monsters, that character’s own bloodline (if any) can succumb to that of the awnshegh, provoking a frightening transformation." (p. 24) No mention of bloodtheft at all.

[irdeggman]

Originally posted by anacreon+Jun 30 2004, 12:35 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (anacreon @ Jun 30 2004, 12:35 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-A_dark@Jun 30 2004, 01:57 AM
IAlso, in the case of bloodtheft, why did she bloodtheft him? Didn't she do it for power? Is that not greedy on her behalf? Should she not be punished for it? (for some reason, greed and powerlust should not be the goals of a good ehrshegh..)So, actually..., if she bloodthefts the Gorgon, she chose to do it to gain power and that is not good... She has to pay for dat :D
hmmm... Where does it say that one has to commit bloodtheft in order to be so corrupted? The BoR only says: "When a non-awnshegh kills one of these powerful monsters, that character’s own bloodline (if any) can succumb to that of the awnshegh, provoking a frightening transformation." (p. 24) No mention of bloodtheft at all. [/b][/quote]
BoR pg 24 "The Short Road"

"Use the following guidelines to determine whether a character who kills an awnshegh and commits bloodtheft on the creature. . ."

[irdeggman]

I tend to agree with Gary on a lot of this Awn versus Ersh stuff. But I don't think that ershegh are as powerful as awnshegh. Not the straight up equal ones that is. What I mean is that the transformations, while similar are different. The ershegh transformation is voluntary while the transformation to awnshegh is not. IMO awnghegh and ershegh with equal bloodline strengths and levels are not equal in power because of this.

That is pretty much the main reason I haven't put together an ershegh transformation process like the awnshegh one for the BRCS yet. They need to be similar but different and the ershegh one needs to be weaker because it is more controlled, IMO.

[geeman]

At 11:43 AM 6/30/2004 +0200, irdeggman wrote:



>I don`t think that ershegh are as powerful as awnshegh. Not the straight

>up equal ones that is. What I mean is that the transformations, while

>similar are different. The ershegh transformation is voluntary while the

>transformation to awnshegh is not. IMO awnghegh and ershegh with equal

>bloodline strengths and levels are not equal in power because of this.That

>is pretty much the main reason I haven`t put together an ershegh

>transformation process like the awnshegh one for the BRCS yet. They need

>to be similar but different and the ershegh one needs to be weaker because

>it is more controlled, IMO.



From what I can tell if one wants to portray a character as weaker than

another in 3e/3.5 one does so with character levels and/or ability

scores. If awnshegh or ershegh are unequal in power as part of the system

(that is, the ershegh class is demonstrably weaker than the awnshegh class)

it throws off any considerations about CR, ECL, etc. not to mention throws

off the supposedly balanced character class system.



Even were that not the case, I think most awnshegh are more powerful than

ershegh not because of the nature of their transformation alone, but by the

extent of their transformation. That is, awnsheghlien tend to embrace the

changes or those changes are involuntary, where ersheghlien don`t

necessarily do either. They are more powerful because they are more

transformed, which means they have more levels (or equivalent LA) in their

transformation, if that makes sense. From an actual play standpoint,

however, they are simply more powerful characters, having total ECL values

higher than ersheghlien.



If one were to imagine certain ershegh themes, however, is possible to see

how they might be very powerful (read: have lots of levels in an ershegh

class or other character effects.) The Phoenix, for example, could be a

very powerful ershegh as might a character like the Titan. Either of those

themes might be used to devise a character that could rival any of the

existing awnsheghlien right up to the big G.



To a certain extent, of course, this stuff has to do with the theme of the

character in question being fundamentally more powerful than other

themes. One probably wouldn`t want an ershegh called the Pixie to have 20

levels in an ershegh class. That tends to be the case for awnsheghlien as

well as ersheghlien, however. One wouldn`t necessarily imagine an awnshegh

called The Stirge to have 20 levels in such a class either. I tried to

keep the Gremlin and the Imp relatively low level because giving them 12+

levels starts to actually work against the theme of their awnsheghlien

transformation since that transformation is in many ways definitively less

powerful than others. One _could_ extend their levels up as high as one

wants, of course. Even right up to the epic level and beyond, but it would

be more than a little strange and might stretch believability. On the

whole, there are probably more powerful awnsheghlien themes than

ersheghlien, but that has more to do IMO with the fact that monstrous

creatures tend to exist as foils for heroes who are a sort of superhuman

beings. We have, therefore, a lot more prototypical monsters upon which to

base such characters in mythology, literature, etc.



Gary

[irdeggman]

Gary,

Using a 20 level class for comparison would make it have to be even because of 3.5 concepts. But I was talking about the UA bloodlines comparison which works outside of classes. The 'empty' class levels (total of three available) are used to account for the gradual LA occuring as the character goes up in character level. The awnshegh one I wrote included a LA at those level to account for the 'extra' power resulting from the transformations. What I'd do is to reduce the benes gained along the way for the ershegh and knock the LA adjustment down (probably by 1 for each empty class level). This would reflect the difference in equivalent power and still capture the progressive transformation process inherent to both, IMO. Also the ershegh transformation wouldn't occur until the character wished it (then all of the benes would be backwards filling). Once the transformation starts it is irreversable, IMO. Although it can be fought (hence the exp penalty for resisting the change and not taking the requisite number of awnshegh/ersheg class levels).

Another way to handle this is via prestige classes. The awnshegh prestige class would have more levels (say 10) while the ershegh would have less (3-5) it all depends on how someone wanted to handle this. But the different number of prestige class levels would reflect the difference in power overall, although each level would be roughly equivalent.

[geeman]

My only objection to using the bloodline system of UA to portray the

awnsheghlien or ersheghlien transformation is that the transformation

shouldn`t necessarily be very predictable in order to portray how certain

awnsheghlien go through a rapid change while others manage to avoid their

corruption to a certain extent for a seemingly very long time. The Sphynx,

for instance, would appear to be very transformed in comparison to Rhoubhe,

even though Sphynxie has been around for a centuries while

Rhoubhie-tobhie`s bloodline has been in existence since Deismaar. Game

mechanically, I suppose, a level is a level whether it comes from a LA or

an actual level in a character class, and using a character class allows

for more flexibility in portraying such a thing.



In the long run, I suppose there are several awnsheghlien transformations

that seem to warrant more of a LA than the UA bloodline system uses, and

the process itself seems to warrant a more significant effect. I`ve used

nothing but an awnshegh character class to portray several of them in my

write ups, sometimes 12+ character levels. A lot of that, of course, are

HD, BAB, saves, etc. but just to get enough transformation effects and

disadvantages in a way that seemed to work in the context of a D20

character class sometimes requires a lot of levels. YMMV.



Gary

[Magian]

How is it that the Sphinx is further changed than Rhoubhe? Isn't Rhoubhe a shadow elf fully transformed?

[irdeggman]

Since I don't have the books in front of me I'll ask the question.

I know that the manslayer has bloodform (major), does the sphinx have major or great?

Also using the UA bloodline system the transformation can be fought by taking an exp penalty. So it could be used to explain things.

Also I would not go to the extreme of trying to maintain everything exactly like it was in 2nd ed. It just won't work in 3.5, so if people are using a 3.5 based system somethings will by necessity have to change. Hence rewriting the awnshegh/ersh to fit the model that is being developed for the 3.5 system being used.

Again, as I have pointed out numerous times in the past - 2nd had no pattern or consistency at all when it came to creating monsters. This is totally contrary to everything in 3.5. In 3.5 everything has some standard mechanic used to portray things, and monster creation has been even more fine tuned in 3.5 than it was in 3.0. I wouldn't use a straight 2nd ed comparison to rationalize any system used, instead try to capture the feel and flavor or else the system will absolutely fail because they just aren't totally compatable.

[geeman]

At 08:29 PM 7/1/2004 +0200, irdeggman wrote:



>I know that the manslayer has bloodform (major), does the sphinx have

>major or great?



The Sphynx has bloodform(great).



In any case, I used the Sphynx in that example, however, just because he`s

been around for centuries, where Rhoubhe has been around for millenia (or

so) to convey the time issue of transformation. There are other

awnsheghlien who have been around only for decades but are more transformed

than Rhoubhe.



>Also I would not go to the extreme of trying to maintain everything

>exactly like it was in 2nd ed.



I don`t think that needs to be the case here. If one can do it simply and

easily then why not? A character class does it just as easily (and, in

fact, without introducing a new kind of rules subset from a book not in the

core set--which if I understand correctly is one of the things that was

being avoided in the update) and does it in a way that is more in keeping

with the original concept.



Gary

[geeman]

At 05:48 PM 7/1/2004 +0200, Magian wrote:



>How is it that the Sphinx is further changed than Rhoubhe? Isn`t Rhoubhe

>a shadow elf fully transformed?



Maybe... who knows? I know if shooting fiery arrows is particularly a

shadow elf ability, or if Little Orphan Annie eyeballs particularly

bespeaks some sort of "awnsidhe" trait. It`s possible, however, that

Rhoubhe has reached his maximum transformation, though it seems not to

me. His physical appearance hasn`t really changed dramatically. That`s

not necessarily a requirement of transformation but it would seem like the

corrupting power of Azrai would do more than make him darker skinned and

neutral evil.



Personally, I see Rhoubhe`s transformation continuing into a kind of

hulking, autocratic parody of Sidhe culture, consumed by hatred and

obsessed with his own little war against humanity. Sort of Gilgamesh meets

Elric with a longbow, or even more apt he could be transforming into

diabolic creature not unlike the old 1e demon prince Graz`zt but lawful evil.



When it comes to the actual amount of their transformation, however, the

Sphynx has been physically altered by his transformation more than Rhoubhe

has, correct? In fact, most awnshegh are more changed than Rhoubhe is with

a few notable exceptions (like the Siren.)



Gary

[irdeggman]

>I know that the manslayer has bloodform (major), does the sphinx have
>major or great?

The Sphynx has bloodform(great).

In any case, I used the Sphynx in that example, however, just because he`s
been around for centuries, where Rhoubhe has been around for millenia (or
so) to convey the time issue of transformation. There are other
awnsheghlien who have been around only for decades but are more transformed
than Rhoubhe.

Hmm I have noticed that the awnshegh with the greatest degree of transformations are those with bloodform (great) vice bloodform (major) for those that have the bloodform blood ability. Which is why I made the UA table work give a greater degree of transformation based on the level of bloodform ability (and if the awnshegh has a true bloodline).

Also I see Rhoubhe resisting the transformation instead of embracing it, (again also recognized by the UA variation). He is the least transformed of all the known true bloodlines. It also helps explain whay a creature (character) that has been around for pretty much ever and was a great elven general before Raesene was even born doesn't have more class levels - a slower progression (i.e., 20% exp penalty) since he is fighting (or has been) the transformation.

>Also I would not go to the extreme of trying to maintain everything
>exactly like it was in 2nd ed.

I don`t think that needs to be the case here. If one can do it simply and
easily then why not? A character class does it just as easily (and, in
fact, without introducing a new kind of rules subset from a book not in the
core set--which if I understand correctly is one of the things that was
being avoided in the update) and does it in a way that is more in keeping
with the original concept.

Again, Gary you've lost me.

There hasn't been a write up presented yet of an awnshegh that has exactly matched the 2nd ed versions.

It is pretty much impossible to capture the true power and essence of an awnshegh using a standard class. Which seems to be what you are talking about. Any 20 level class would absolutely fail in doing this and if there are 'empty' levels then it is no longer a standard class. It is conceivalbe to do it via a prestige class since they are basically more powerful than standard classes, but this casues a whole new set of problems since prestige classes themselves are pourely optional and inserting a 'required' prestige class into the BRCS pretty much negates this optional thing.

UA is OGL so it can be used, but more importantly the UA bloodlines system was used as a guide and not an exact replication so it can very easily work in capturing the awnshegh transformation.

It is essential not to require anyone to have to use books other than the core 3 books (or SRD) in conjuncture with the BRCS. The UA bloodline based concept does not require this.

[geeman]

At 10:30 PM 7/1/2004 +0200, irdeggman wrote:



>Again, Gary you`ve lost me.There hasn`t been a write up presented yet of

>an awnshegh that has exactly matched the 2nd ed versions.It is pretty much

>impossible to capture the true power and essence of an awnshegh using a

>standard class. Which seems to be what you are talking about.



Sheesh, man, you do need a vacation. I posted it weeks ago under the

thread called "Rhoubhe Manslayer" (odd that this thread came back to that

awnshegh...) in response to one of your posts. It`s in the birthright-l

archives in week 4 of April this year

(http://oracle.wizards.com/scripts/wa.exe?A2=ind0404D&L=birthright-l&P=R5083.)

There followed a discussion on the possibilities for transformations and

disadvantages, particularly an insanity disadvantage, which you

participated in. I`ve been referencing this class and various aspects of

it for quite a while now....



I don`t know if it _exactly_ matches the 2e versions, but I`ve yet to find

an awnshegh that can`t be portrayed using that character class, and

_exactly_ matching the 2e versions isn`t really the requirement. It just

needs to match the original BR themes of awnshegh transformation, not

replicate the 2e characters precisely. It`s open ended enough that new

things can be added without any particular trouble.



>Any 20 level class would absolutely fail in doing this and if there are

>`empty` levels then it is no longer a standard class.



I`ve been using one for about a year and a half and it seems to work just

fine.... Every awnshegh description I`ve posted (including the recent

conversion of the White Witch) has used it to develop the transformation

effects and other stats of the character description.



>It is essential not to require anyone to have to use books other than the

>core 3 books (or SRD) in conjuncture with the BRCS.



There can be a new class or three, though, correct? There is, after all,

entire character class descriptions for magicians and nobles in the

BRCS.... Having one for awnsheghlien and ersheghlien seems like a

worthwhile inclusion since they are at least as definitive of the campaign

setting as those other two classes.



>The UA bloodline based concept does not require this.



It does require explaining what amounts to a different rules set for the

purpose of the campaign setting. One wouldn`t have to have UA in order to

get the concept, but it is something that is culled from that book and

would make more sense if one saw the whole idea rather than just the BR

version of it. Nobody is going to have trouble understanding the idea of a

character class to portray transformation since that already exists in the

core rules.



Gary

[irdeggman]

Originally posted by geeman@Jul 1 2004, 04:40 PM
At 10:30 PM 7/1/2004 +0200, irdeggman wrote:



>Again, Gary you`ve lost me.There hasn`t been a write up presented yet of

>an awnshegh that has exactly matched the 2nd ed versions.It is pretty much

>impossible to capture the true power and essence of an awnshegh using a

>standard class. Which seems to be what you are talking about.



Sheesh, man, you do need a vacation. I posted it weeks ago under the

thread called "Rhoubhe Manslayer" (odd that this thread came back to that

awnshegh...) in response to one of your posts. It`s in the birthright-l

archives in week 4 of April this year

(http://oracle.wizards.com/scripts/wa.exe?A2=ind0404D&L=birthright-l&P=R5083.)

There followed a discussion on the possibilities for transformations and

disadvantages, particularly an insanity disadvantage, which you

participated in. I`ve been referencing this class and various aspects of

it for quite a while now....



I don`t know if it _exactly_ matches the 2e versions, but I`ve yet to find

an awnshegh that can`t be portrayed using that character class, and

_exactly_ matching the 2e versions isn`t really the requirement. It just

needs to match the original BR themes of awnshegh transformation, not

replicate the 2e characters precisely. It`s open ended enough that new

things can be added without any particular trouble.


And it is intimately tied into your BP system for bloodlines and blood abilites. If one doesn't use that then the class doesn't work.

[geeman]

At 03:45 AM 7/2/2004 +0200, irdeggman wrote:



>And it is intimately tied into your BP system for bloodlines and blood

>abilites. If one doesn`t use that then the class doesn`t work.



I know, I know. Heaven forbid anyone should want to go with a better way

of portraying bloodline and a better way of portraying awnsheghlien at the

same time....



In any case, there was some discussion of how to remove the BP system from

the class. It`ll a few paragraphs, I`d guess, so I should be able to crank

it out pretty quickly. However, I`ll be out of my office until late

tonight, and there are festivities this weekend what with the 4th of July

and all.... (I`m planning on celebrating Independence by drinking a lot

British ale.)



Gary