What is the historical reference for the Khinasi?

[irdeggman]

Here is the poll for Khinasi. Explain if you have other ideas. Basically if votes are close I'll just make it a combination of cultures.

[graham anderson]

I think that the khinasi are both persian and arabian. I think that they are an amalgam of the various races and groups from the middle east.

[Athos69]

Ah!, but what era of Persian? The current writeup in the Chapter 1 has us beleiving that it is Persia from the days of Darius and Xerxes (ancient Persia, a.k.a the Persian Empire). That area has been inhabited for almost 10,000 years. If we want to include the cultures of Persia that fit the artwork, the names and generally depicted culture, we should be looking at the 1200s.

This would be the time of the Caliphate in Persia, the Ottomans in Turkey, the Mughal in northern India and many other representatives of an Arabic / Islamic culture.

[Bearcat]

I think a reference to the Arabian Nights would be in order, because of the wide dissemination of that work most people will be able to quickly grasp the imagery of Khinasi. Although I will admit that the region does not fit into that stereotype as, say, Al Quadim did.

[Raesene Andu]

I voted for other, I think the Khinasi culture is based on the Basarji culture...

[Arjan]

i voted for other as well.

i always thought it had a strong resemblance with the Moors after they invaded spain and turned the cities into city states (grenada, visgoths etc...)

even the khinasi names are northern african as well :)

Arjan

[destowe]

The Moors with being known for their alchemists is what I based the Khinasi with their high number of magicians on.

[the Falcon]

I voted other, too. I think they're more of a blend of Arabs and Moors.
Definitely not Egyptians or Persians.

I wouldn't know about Phoenicians, because, well, I just don't know about Phoenicians. :D

[tcharazazel]

I voted other also, they seem more like the Moors and maybe a bit of the Arabs.

[RaspK_FOG]

If the Moors were the Arabese who brought about the words Algebra and Alchemy into our everyday life (I am sad to say that the greek educational system simply says it was the Arabs who did all the work, without further ado [I am not sure if this is the best way to put it, must dust my english off]) then, yes, I am all the way for Moors as well! Basically, that's what they remind me most.

[Athos69]

The Moors, without a doubt, were the conduit through which this knowledge flowed (including the concept of the number '0', BTW), but such knowledge was known along the breadth of the Islamic world. The only reason that the 'backwards' Europeans learned all these wonderful things about mathematics, astronomy and medicine was because Spain actually unified for a moment and drove the Moors back before they fragmented again.

[graham anderson]

Much of the knowledge from the islamic world was simply ancient greek and roman knowledge. The knowledge did not survive in the west but was maintained in the east before finaly making a return.

[graham anderson]

The ancient greeks are actualy a great place to look for ideas for birthright. Small mostly city states that breafly unify. The nature of the poilitics and battles. The pelopenesian war or the rise and fall of athens are good books sory for the spelling. The pelopenesian war has some good stuf that could be used for the war of the iron throne between boeruine and avan. So many of the ancient books would just fit so well into birthright. Seven against thebes and so many more.

[ConjurerDragon]

the Falcon schrieb:



>This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.

> You can view the entire thread at:

> http://www.birthright.net/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=36&t=2706

>

> the Falcon wrote:

> I voted other, too. I think they`re more of a blend of Arabs and Moors.Definitely not Egyptians or Persians.I wouldn`t kno about Phoenicians, because, well, I just don`t know about Phoenicians. :D

>

But Carthago? Those were Phoenicians as well.

bye

Michael

[Athos69]

Originally posted by graham anderson@Jun 29 2004, 08:49 AM
Much of the knowledge from the islamic world was simply ancient greek and roman knowledge. The knowledge did not survive in the west but was maintained in the east before finaly making a return.
The concept of '0' is actually Indian, and Algebra was an Islamic invention. Much of the Astronomy did come from the Greeks, and was expanded upon by the Muslims.

[graham anderson]

The concept of '0' is actually Indian, and Algebra was an Islamic invention. Much of the Astronomy did come from the Greeks, and was expanded upon by the Muslims.

algebra is greek not islamic.

[RaspK_FOG]

Err, allow the poor Greek to set things right: Algebra was mostly an Arabian invention; while the greek and other cultures offered what they could to the science of Algebra, it started as an Arabian science and continued evolving ever more throughout the ages because of the dedication Arabians showed to Mathematics (and Astronomy, but that's another thing).
While the Egyptians offered a lot in the study of Geometry, it was the Greeks that made most of the revolutionary steps in that field of Mathematics, with the perfect example of Eucleidis, the "Father of Geometry" (the Geometry commonly taught is the Eucleidian Geometry).
I know what happened regarding the various sciences (thank you, people, for preserving the ancient knowledge and wisdom), thus I spoke.
Algebra (just like Alchemy) are paraphrases of Arabian words (I cannot spell them; sorry for that).
The Greeks were not exactly like that; if you know how many acres of land a Cerilian province has, you can easilly come to realise that most provinces are a lot larger than most greek city-states, if not all. Even so, since each culture is different, you cannot expect a feudal government in every area: Anuire is a lot different from Vosgaard, isn't it?

[geeman]

At 05:49 PM 6/29/2004 +0200, graham anderson wrote:



>Much of the knowledge from the islamic world was simply ancient greek and

>roman knowledge. The knowledge did not survive in the west but was

>maintained in the east before finaly making a return.



Well... let me quibble a bit, and regurgitate what I`m sure most of you

already know.... "Algebra" is Arabic. At least, the word is. Algebra

(the word) is derivative of the Arabic al-jabr meaning "restoration." That

word, however, is derivative of the Latin, since most of the Greek

mathematics (and the rest of Greek culture) passed in one way or another

through the sieve of the Roman Empire. Much of the basis of algebra (the

branch of mathematics) was Greek and then was diffused throughout the Near

East (thank you, Rome) where it was maintained and expanded upon before

being rediscovered (one might want to say "restored") to Europe towards the

end of the Middle Ages. If you`ll excuse the pun (but I can`t resist) we

need to following equation in order to solve for Algebra:



Early Greece / Roman Empire + Post-Hellenistic Arabia = Late Medieval Europe



Somewhere in there is the monastic scriptorialism of the Church, but

expressing that might require a little trigonometry....



In any case, I don`t think one can discount the work of Arab mathematicians

for all that algebraic math may have originated in Greece, though that is

often ignored. The discipline that returned to Europe a thousand years

after it died there was in many ways expanded upon and improved.



Gary

[RaspK_FOG]

Another thing regarding the symbology: not only was "0" an Arabian concept (it simply had never before occured to people that we should have something to represent "nothing") but all the numerical symbols we use nowadays: 0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, and 9. The greek ones were the whole alphabet in weird (even I have to admit) patterns; the roman were I (1), V (5), X (10), L (50), C (100), D (500), and M (1.000), and by putting lower numbers before greater ones you subtracted them from the next number, while if they were after they were added to them (ie. MCMLCIV means 1984, because M = 1.000, CM = 900, LC = 80, and IV = 4, while MMIV means 2004).

[graham anderson]

Err, allow the poor Greek to set things right:

Lets not

Algebra was mostly an Arabian invention; while the greek and other cultures offered what they could to the science of Algebra, it started as an Arabian science and continued evolving ever more throughout the ages because of the dedication Arabians showed to Mathematics (and Astronomy, but that's another thing).

Look further back in time

The history of algebra began in ancient Egypt and Babylon, where people learned to solve linear (ax = B) and quadratic (ax2 + bx = c) equations, as well as indeterminate equations such as x2 + y2 = z2, whereby several unknowns are involved. The ancient Babylonians solved arbitrary quadratic equations by essentially the same procedures taught today. They also could solve some indeterminate equations.

The Alexandrian mathematicians Hero of Alexandria and Diophantus continued the traditions of Egypt and Babylon, but Diophantus's book Arithmetica is on a much higher level and gives many surprising solutions to difficult indeterminate equations. This ancient knowledge of solutions of equations in turn found a home early in the Islamic world, where it was known as the "science of restoration and balancing." (The Arabic word for restoration, al-jabru, is the root of the word algebra.) In the 9th century, the Arab mathematician al-Khwarizmi wrote one of the first Arabic algebras, a systematic exposé of the basic theory of equations, with both examples and proofs. By the end of the 9th century, the Egyptian mathematician Abu Kamil had stated and proved the basic laws and identities of algebra and solved such complicated problems as finding x, y, and z such that x + y + z = 10, x2 + y2 = z2, and xz = y2.

Algebra (just like Alchemy) are paraphrases of Arabian words (I cannot spell them; sorry for that).

Just because we use their words today does not mean that they invented it.

The Greeks were not exactly like that; if you know how many acres of land a Cerilian province has, you can easilly come to realise that most provinces are a lot larger than most greek city-states, if not all. Even so, since each culture is different, you cannot expect a feudal government in every area: Anuire is a lot different from Vosgaard, isn't it?

Don't know what you are replying to here it might be that I said it is a good place to look for idea's for birthright which it is so I don't know what your on about.

In any case, I don`t think one can discount the work of Arab mathematicians
for all that algebraic math may have originated in Greece, though that is
often ignored. The discipline that returned to Europe a thousand years
after it died there was in many ways expanded upon and improved.

No they cant be discounted they did a lot of good work themselves and preserved books that didn't survive in the west. Without them so much would have been lost.

Another thing regarding the symbology: not only was "0" an Arabian concept (it simply had never before occured to people that we should have something to represent "nothing") but all the numerical symbols we use nowadays: 0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, and 9. The greek ones were the whole alphabet in weird (even I have to admit) patterns; the roman were I (1), V (5), X (10), L (50), C (100), D (500), and M (1.000), and by putting lower numbers before greater ones you subtracted them from the next number, while if they were after they were added to them (ie. MCMLCIV means 1984, because M = 1.000, CM = 900, LC = 80, and IV = 4, while MMIV means 2004).

Sorry wrong again The babylonians, egyptians and greeks all had representations of 0 it was however rare for mathematicians to use it. Only a few have ben known to use it.

However it was the indians that made it a commonly used number as per modern mathematics. It has been argued that even this is down to the greeks and their ancient contact with india.

[tcharazazel]

Yay Graham!!! Power to the underreprested dead people!! I see you are/were an ancient history teacher, cool stuff. So, now that's settled, who else thinks that the Kenasi are more like the Moors than the Arabs?

[graham anderson]

Yay Graham!!! Power to the underreprested dead people!! I see you are/were an ancient history teacher, cool stuff. So, now that's settled, who else thinks that the Kenasi are more like the Moors than the Arabs?

My uncles are history professors not me I just read too much and what I read is mostly ancient history , greek, roman and chinese.

There is a good site where you can get a lot of classic books downloaded. WWW.promo.net and select project gutenberg including a couple on ancient mathematics.

The moors are probably the closest to the khinasi the only exception is maybe binsada( is that the one with the tribal groups) and that is an exception to the usual city states.

I am all in favour of the moors being used.

[Sir Tiamat]

As a student of political science & Arabic language and culture, which includes history of the ottoman empire and Persia. And no less because of the fact that my girlfriend is Persian I would say a combination of most of the above and most of the replies. I especialy liked the reply of Raesene with the Basarji culture. In the Arab speaking world there have been a lot of influences of other cultures. Arabic culture has been influenced by persia and egypt.

I'm sorry that I have no more time to reply now maybe later. Yet if you want to look for khinashi culture in our world I would look at a comibnation of most of the above. With the west being more Arabic and the East more Persian. And where Khinashi and Vos come Together give the Vos a turkish influence. More Northern Rusian and Mongol

[irdeggman]

Time to close this poll.

Here are the results:

Arabian [ 12 ] [52.17%]
Egyptian [ 0 ] [0.00%]
Persian [ 1 ] [4.35%]
Phoenician [ 1 ] [4.35%]
Other (please explain) [ 8 ] [34.78%]
Abstain [ 1 ] [4.35%]


Looks like Arabian culture is the most. Not enough people commented with their 'other vote' to give suffficient focus for any other combination (or even the Moors, the most commonly mentioned one, to use as part of an amalgamation).