Becoming an Awnshegh.

[geeman]

In the original BR boxed set we had very little game mechanical information

on awnsheghlien. Several of them were given stats, but the process itself

was pretty much unexplained. It wasn`t until we got BE:AoC that we saw how

bloodline interacts with transformation for those characters, but that was

only in a rather sketchy form that raised several more questions. It

wasn`t until the BoR came out that there were any actual guidelines for

adjudicating the transformation of a character into an awnshegh or ershegh.



In the BoR there are two types of awnsheghlien transformations

described. The first is the transformation of a character who commits

bloodtheft upon a scion of Azrai. The transformation described in that

section is sudden and dramatic. The character takes on characteristics of

some degenerate awnshegh form as part of the act of bloodtheft itself that

resulted in the character`s derivation becoming that of Azrai. No use of

that bloodline, its blood abilities or any other influence are

necessary. Of the existing awnshegh probably the Boar is the most obvious

example of this kind of transformation, though one or two other types might

qualify.



The second type of transformation is more gradual. It`s more similar to

the one described in the BE text under the bloodform ability that has the

transformation occur over time as part of an ongoing process that is

seductive and corrupting. It is the slow descent into awnshegh form.



There is a third type of awnshegh origin that might be included. The

Magian`s spell Bloodline Corruption changes the target`s bloodline to that

of Azrai "forcing the creature to become an awnshegh." I would suggest,

however, that since that spell also drains bloodline from the caster (or

another character who donates its strength) that spell is more similar to

the first method of awnshegh creation. It`s as if the victim performed an

act of bloodtheft on the caster (or person to donates) without actually

killing that person, and it automatically results in a transformation into

an awnshegh.



My first question is, how should those two things (or three if one thinks

something is particularly appropriate for the Magian`s spell) be portrayed

in a D20 conversion?



I already use an awnshegh character class that I think is pretty apt for

the second type of transformation, and I was thinking that the first

sounded more like a template. There should be particular circumstances for

that template to get applied, but in general I`m thinking right now that it

will be a template that grants several transformation effects and half as

many disadvantages as outlined in the awnshegh class. That is, however,

just off the cuff and I`m curious what folks in the BR community think

about the subject.



So my second question is, what might that template look like and how might

it be accounted for in 3e/D20 terms? That is, what would be the

appropriate ECL modifier?



Gary

[destowe]

The second method, by taking classes is balanced for ECL.

The first method would be much better as a template. But it should not be all benefits. That throws off the balance. I would figure 3 templates (minor, major, great) are needed. Each one gives more power, but give enough penalties that the net ECL is zero.

Yes the person in that commits a great bloodtheft gets many powerful abilities at once, but there is always a price for that power. So I think maybe even more penalties would be given right from the beginning.

If you wanted the bloodline to be cruel (I usually do), tempt the player even more. Let them then continue on the path gaining levels in the awnsheghlien class. But let them only have half the penalties for the class levels. They have already been 'cursed' and are now exploring the possibilities. I can see many of the weak willed giving in for the lure of easy power.

[irdeggman]

I like the following (attached). If you want to include being able to transform without the bloodform ability then use the first two columns for major and great bloodlines and save the last column for only the combo of True and bloodform.

It is an automatic change that is backwards filling. The scion must take a level of awnsh class (which gives the physical changes and accounts for the LA equivalents) or suffer an exp penalty (the price for resisting the draw of the bloodline).

[geeman]

At 08:14 PM 6/21/2004 +0200, destowe wrote:



>The second method, by taking classes is balanced for ECL.The first method

>would be much better as a template. But it should not be all

>benefits. That throws off the balance. I would figure 3 templates

>(minor, major, great) are needed. Each one gives more power, but give

>enough penalties that the net ECL is zero.Yes the person in that commits a

>great bloodtheft gets many powerful abilities at once, but there is always

>a price for that power. So I think maybe even more penalties would be

>given right from the beginning.If you wanted the bloodline to be cruel (I

>usually do), tempt the player even more. Let them then continue on the

>path gaining levels in the awnsheghlien class. But let them only have

>half the penalties for the class levels. They have already been `cursed`

>and are now exploring the possibilities. I can see many of the weak

>willed giving in for the lure of easy power.



I was thinking of giving the template for "instantaneous bloodtheft

awnshegh" something like 4 transformations and 2 disadvantages a la the

awnshegh character class I use. I`ve posted a version of that class

before, so it`s in the birthright-l archives at

http://oracle.wizards.com/scripts/wa.exe?A2=ind0404D&L=birthright-l&P=R5083&m=22768

or in the birthright.net message boards under the title "Rhoubhe Manslayer."



So the question becomes how many transformations balanced by how many

disadvantages equals an ECL? Bear in mind that the transformations are

supposed to be about equal to a feat while the disadvantages are supposed

to be about the same power level as a feat, perhaps a bit less since they

can be min/maxed to a certain extent.



I want to keep the template at ECL +0 or +1. I think it`s doable to make

it +1 since that will simply account for the next character level of the

killer and he did, after all, just scrag a scion of Azrai, so that level

should be relatively close. While it might not be 3e/D20 cant one could

make one of the requirements for the application of the template that the

character who gets it must be close to levelling up anyway. Nobody knows

what the circumstances are that leads to the act of bloodtheft resulting in

a scion becoming an awnshegh, so being near enough to level up is as good

as any other, I suppose.



Gary

[irdeggman]

Gary,
The 'proper' 3.5 terminology is LA (level adjustment) when refering to what used to be called ECL + (in 3.0). ECL (Effective character level) is defined as the sum of all class levels + monster hit dice (for those that gain extra hit dice) + LA (for those intangeables).

I know the terms get confusing, especially with the way WotC 'changed' them, but the new terms actually make more sense and are easier to understand than they used to be.

As far as how many physicals transformations equal a LA - I'd use the guidelines in Savage Species for comparisons. It lists the appropriate LA for certain types of physical abilities (and other things like SR and DR). The LA all depends on the nature of the transformation (and what is gained by it), it is not just a simple number of transformations.

[anacreon]

I still do not understand why the rules presented in "Savage Species" would not be appropriate for Awnshegh transformation of the second type (or indeed Ehrshegh transformations).

As for the spell of the Magian, the only known recipient of this spell (to my knowledge) is the Manticore, and it seems as though his transformation is gradual.

One of the main problems I would have in a birthright campaign (I think) is to make Awnshegh transformation distasteful to players.


Oh, and Geeman, does BoR mean "Book of Regency"? If so, I must have missed this reference can you tell me where in the book it appears?

[irdeggman]

Originally posted by anacreon@Jun 23 2004, 12:54 AM


Oh, and Geeman, does BoR mean "Book of Regency"? If so, I must have missed this reference can you tell me where in the book it appears?
BoR (Book of Regency) starting on pg 24 under "Becoming an Awnshegh" there are two paths described; "The Short Road" (i.e., bloodtheft) and "The Path of Evil" (i.e., the gradual transformation).

[geeman]

At 07:54 AM 6/23/2004 +0200, anacreon wrote:



>I still do not understand why the rules presented in "Savage Species"

>would not be appropriate for Awnshegh transformation of the second type

>(or indeed Ehrshegh transformations).



The awnshegh character class is IMO very similar to the ideas presented in

SS. The one I use was written up after I read that book (and a couple of

other D20 texts.) I think SS was innovative, however, I should also note

that I don`t think it is entirely appropriate for the particulars of BR

awnsheghlien and ersheghlien, because there is a weird set of contradictory

requirements for such a class system. In order to portray awnshegh in a

single character class that class must have both a general approach in that

the range of themes for such characters is pretty much unlimited, yet rules

that fit within the framework of the themes of the BR setting. As such, SS

is a good place to start and from which to derive some methods, but it

doesn`t really `port straight as well as all that. At least, I found it

insufficient when writing up awnsheghlien, so came up with another system.



A while back someone suggested just using levels from SS for various

awnsheghlien and ersheghlien by putting them on top of existing stats for

race and/or character levels. That might work in some cases, but on the

whole I don`t think it works as a method for two reasons. First, because

the awnshegh of the BR setting aren`t really the monsters, animals, etc.

that are portrayed in SS. A character called the Salamander, for instance,

might be very similar to the elemental creature in D&D, but he might have

very different qualities and characteristics. He might have very little

resemblance to the D&D monster. The Gorgon isn`t very much like a gorgon,

the Hydra very little like a hydra, and the Hag is very different from a

hag. Simply putting monster levels from a Salamander "racial class" a la

SS is IMO insufficient to describe all the possibilities for such a

character. If you consider the various BR awnsheghlien many of them have

very different abilities and powers than the creatures that bear the same

name in D&D, so using those D&D monsters to portray them would lose a lot

of their distinctiveness. Second, I think SS makes one very questionable

assumption: that CR equates to character level. Whether or not that is

true in general in D&D, I haven`t found that it works very well as a basis

for character generation when it comes to awnsheghlien and ersheghlien. YMMV.



>As for the spell of the Magian, the only known recipient of this spell (to

>my knowledge) is the Manticore, and it seems as though his transformation

>is gradual.



True, and we really don`t know much about how that works. It sounds to me

from the description and the write up in BE that the event is most like the

type of "instant awnshegh" created by an act of bloodtheft as described in

the BoR. I wasn`t really thinking of how to portray the Magian`s bloodline

corruption spell, however. I`m more interested in how to portray a

"bloodtheft awnshegh" since that is more common (if still very rare) way of

becoming an awnshegh than that spell. In fact, it would seem to fit into

the concept as a whole that the Magian had found a way of replicating the

act of bloodtheft on a scion of Azrai and "bottled" it into a spell, if you

will. If we have rules to describe how the "instant awnshegh" from

bloodtheft happens in 3e terms then we might extrapolate what the Magian`s

spell is doing. On the whole, though, I`m happy to just get the instant

awnshegh covered. The Magian`s spell could be handled if someone was using

that awnshegh (or his magicks....)



One thing that I think should probably be covered in this context is the

whole bloodtheft situation. It`s a perennial issue in the BR community,

because there just aren`t very good rules for handling such a specific

thing in any edition of D&D or D20, and because it remains one of the

central issues of the campaign setting. The BRCS update, for instance,

drops several aspects of the idea and goes with what I think is a very

different interpretation of bloodtheft. Unfortunately, the original system

in the RB was very sketchy and created a lot of potential problems as far

as game mechanics and function in play was concerned. People would

speculate about whether or not the Gorgon had a stable of offspring that he

was using to increase his bloodline. After all, why wouldn`t he given the

rules as presented? There are role-playing reasons why he wouldn`t do that

(after all, he could create a few dozen opponents, or throw his subjects

into turmoil should the truth get out) but the situation is created by some

bad rules in the first place. The method for determining bloodtheft

happening in the first place was never well described since it requires a

stab in the heart which doesn`t exist in the abstract combat system of D&D.



In order to deal with some of those issues, while remaining as close as

possible to the original themes and ideas of the BR setting, I was thinking

of doing something like the following:



Bloodtheft

When one scion kills another scion by stabbing him in the heart the

power of dying scion`s bloodline is released. Some of this power is

transferred into the body of the person holding the weapon that delivers

the killing blow, possibly increasing the bloodline score of the

killer. This act is called bloodtheft. Stabbing a person through the

heart, however, is not simple. An act of bloodtheft only occurs under

special circumstances. First, bloodtheft can only be performed using a

piercing or slashing weapons melee weapons. The weapon must be held when

the killing blow is delivered. One cannot commit an act of bloodtheft by

throwing a dagger or firing an arrow.

If those basic conditions are met, an act of bloodtheft can occur under

the following circumstances:

1. When a scion performs a coup de grace upon another scion.

2. Whenever a deathblow is dealt to a scion. That is, a killing blow

that reduces the victim`s hit points below 0 or 10 (depending on whether

one is using the 10 rule.)

3. When the blow that reduces a scion`s hit points below 0 is a

critical hit.



If a scion is killed in any of the above circumstances you must check to

see if an act of bloodtheft occurs. Successfully performing bloodtheft

requires that the killer make check using his dexterity modifier. The DC

of the check depends upon the circumstances of the potential act of

bloodtheft as described on the table below:



Table 5: Bloodtheft modifiers

DC Condition

5 The killing blow is a coup de grace.

15 The killer is using a piercing weapon.

20 The killer is using a slashing weapon.



When bloodtheft occurs it may increase the bloodline score of the scion

who committed the act depending upon the bloodline score of the killer and

his victim.

If the bloodline score of the victim is less than or equal to the

bloodline score of the killer use the respective bloodline scores as

modifiers on an opposed roll. If the result of the victim`s roll is higher

than the killer`s roll then the killer`s bloodline score increases by 1 point.

For example, a scion with a bloodline score of 14 kills another blooded

character with a bloodline score of 10. Roll d20 + 14 for the killer and

d20 +10 for the victim. If the result of the victim`s check exceeds that

of the killer then the killer`s bloodline score will raise to 15.

If the bloodline score of the victim is greater than that of the killer

then the killer`s bloodline score increases by +1. Subtract the killer`s

new bloodline score from that of the victim. If the remainder is still

greater than that of the killer then increase the killer`s new bloodline

score by another +1 and subtract this number from the remainder of the

victim`s bloodline score. If this second remainder is still greater than

that of the killer`s new bloodline score continue the process until the

remainder is less than or equal to the killer`s bloodline score. Any

remainder then becomes a modifier in an opposed roll just as if the

bloodline score of the victim were lower than that of the killer above.

For example, a scion with a bloodline score of 12 kills a scion with a

bloodline score of 29. The killer adds +1 to bloodline score (12 +1 = 13)

and subtracts that from the bloodline score of his victim (29 13 =

16.) Since the remainder of 16 is still higher than the new bloodline

score of the killer add +1 to the killer`s bloodline score (13 +1 = 14) and

subtract this new number from the remaining bloodline score of the victim

(16 14 = 2.) Since that remainder (2) is now lower than the killer`s

bloodline score both values are used as modifiers on an opposed roll. If

the result of the victim`s roll (d20 + 2) is greater than that of the

killer (d20 +15) then the killer`s bloodline score will increase a third

time to 16.



Gary

[geeman]

At 05:39 PM 6/22/2004 +0200, irdeggman wrote:



>As far as how many physicals transformations equal a LA - I`d use the

>guidelines in Savage Species for comparisons. It lists the appropriate LA

>for certain types of physical abilities (and other things like SR and

>DR). The LA all depends on the nature of the transformation (and what is

>gained by it), it is not just a simple number of transformations.



I`ve got a whole list of transformations in the character class, and though

nothing is ever really perfectly balanced in D20 they are generally

described in a regular manner that is (if I say so myself) pretty well

balanced as a system against the effects of character class and the BP

system. In any case, let`s assume that`s true for the purpose of

developing a template, shall we? :)



I was thinking it should just have transformation effects and

disadvantages. That`s it. Probably four transformations and two

disadvantages, but maybe six and three.



Gary

[anacreon]

Originally posted by geeman@Jun 23 2004, 12:10 PM
Second, I think SS makes one very questionable

assumption: that CR equates to character level. Whether or not that is

true in general in D&D, I haven`t found that it works very well as a basis

for character generation when it comes to awnsheghlien and ersheghlien. YMMV.




CR equals Character Level??? You must have misunderstood the book. LA+HD = Character Level, which is more often than not twice the CR...

[geeman]

At 01:02 PM 6/23/2004 +0200, anacreon wrote:



> CR equals Character Level??? You must have misunderstood the book. LA+HD

> = Character Level, which is more often than not twice the CR...



Excuse me, I meant ECL not CR.



SS assumes that ECL can be broken up into individual character levels and

portrayed that way. In practise, that makes for a sometimes haphazard

class progression that does not function very well in portraying

awnsheghlien or ersheghlien in my experience.



Gary

[geeman]

At 12:04 PM 6/23/2004 +0200, irdeggman wrote:



> QUOTE (anacreon @ Jun 23 2004, 12:54 AM) Oh, and Geeman, does BoR mean

> "Book of Regency"? If so, I must have missed this reference can you tell

> me where in the book it appears?

>-----------------------------

>

> BoR (Book of Regency) starting on pg 24 under "Becoming an

> Awnshegh" there are two paths described; "The Short Road" (i.e.,

> bloodtheft) and "The Path of Evil" (i.e., the gradual transformation).



Interesting. The second half of anacreon`s post that had the above

question in it didn`t appear in the post that got sent to birthright-l. In

fact, only the first two sentences were in that post and were in the same

"paragraph." Something to do with stripping out the HTML tags, perhaps?



Gary

[irdeggman]

Originally posted by geeman@Jun 23 2004, 05:50 AM
At 05:39 PM 6/22/2004 +0200, irdeggman wrote:



>As far as how many physicals transformations equal a LA - I`d use the

>guidelines in Savage Species for comparisons. It lists the appropriate LA

>for certain types of physical abilities (and other things like SR and

>DR). The LA all depends on the nature of the transformation (and what is

>gained by it), it is not just a simple number of transformations.



I`ve got a whole list of transformations in the character class, and though

nothing is ever really perfectly balanced in D20 they are generally

described in a regular manner that is (if I say so myself) pretty well

balanced as a system against the effects of character class and the BP

system. In any case, let`s assume that`s true for the purpose of

developing a template, shall we? :)



I was thinking it should just have transformation effects and

disadvantages. That`s it. Probably four transformations and two

disadvantages, but maybe six and three.



Gary
Gary,
I think you misunderstood what I was saying. I was saying that the number of transformations isn't what affects the LA but the relative power of the transformations. That is some are more powerful than others.

IIRC your system has a weighted BP cost depending on the relative power of the transformation. Using that as the assumption for your system what it comes down to is finding the BP cost associated with a LA and having a LA for BP of that cost. That is assuming I understand your system.

[geeman]

At 03:58 PM 6/23/2004 +0200, irdeggman wrote:



>Gary, I think you misunderstood what I was saying. I was saying that the

>number of transformations isn`t what affects the LA but the relative power

>of the transformations. That is some are more powerful than others.



I gotcha. I`m saying let`s go ahead and assume that and go on to the next

step. The next step is twofold:



1. Several dozens of the proposed "transformations" are written up and

posted in the aforementioned threads. Those transformations are all

(arguably) balanced against one another and with BP, but whether they are

or not let`s assume that they are balanced against one another for the

purpose of devising a template. I`m thinking that 4 transformations and 2

disadvantages was how I`d estimated that +1 LA to be worth in that system,

but maybe 6/3 would work as well. The system is still a judgement call,

after all, so I`m asking where one might judge that +1 LA to be worth

according to the aforementioned transformation effects.



2. Are there other things that should be in an awnshegh template? Should

it have a HD or other features of character class? Is there anything other

than transformations and disadvantages that seems like it should be

portrayed in a template that represents the sudden and dramatic creation of

an awnshegh by bloodtheft?



>IIRC your system has a weighted BP cost depending on the relative power of

>the transformation. Using that as the assumption for your system what it

>comes down to is finding the BP cost associated with a LA and having a LA

>for BP of that cost. That is assuming I understand your system.



I`m not sure what you mean by weighted BP cost. There isn`t an increased

point cost or anything in the BP system for blood abilities or

transformation in the associated awnshegh class. The awnshegh class gets a

BP every level which can be used to increase an existing blood ability or

traded for a transformation (which are also granted on their own every

other level) and both transformations and blood abilities have described

"paths" upon which they can (but need not necessarily) be spent, but there

is no scaling of the points (if that`s what you mean by weighted.) 1BP and

one transformation almost always get you an effect. The only

transformation that costs more than 1BP (or one transformation) is

increased size, which takes both the BP and the transformation slot for

that awnshegh level. Other than that the association is always 1:1.



In any case, when it comes to associating a LA with BP in the past I`ve

estimated 3BP = 1 character level, but that is again something of a

judgement call.



Gary

[the Falcon]

Edit: Ah, nevermind. I misread. :rolleyes:

[Don E]

While balance might be an issue for everybody, I personally find the benefits from 2 minor, 2 major and 1 great transformation to far outweigh the penalty of having to buy one Awnshegh level. Especially as this level coutns for a lot of class abilities it does not pose much penalty.

I personally prefer Gary's suggestion, but it requires some reworking as it was based on his BP system.

[irdeggman]

Originally posted by Don E@Jun 25 2004, 07:40 AM
While balance might be an issue for everybody, I personally find the benefits from 2 minor, 2 major and 1 great transformation to far outweigh the penalty of having to buy one Awnshegh level. Especially as this level coutns for a lot of class abilities it does not pose much penalty.

I personally prefer Gary's suggestion, but it requires some reworking as it was based on his BP system.
Aha - I found the problem. I had posted an earlier version. The one used for fiftyone's spider actually had more info, an addition scion class level for true bloodline strength and the LA for awnshegh class were bumped up by one (+1/+2/+3).

Try this one instead.