The White Witch

[anacreon]

I have read the entry for the White Witch in "Blood Enemies" several times, and I fail to understand why she is considered awnshagh. It seems as though any special power she possesses (other than standard blood abilities) come from her rings, and not from any bloodform. If she has no monstrous traits, why then is she considered awnshegh and not just a powerful blooded priestess, with a special connection to her goddess (as demonstrated by the ring she got as a present from Kriesha)? If she is indeed awnshegh, what is her blood-induced Form?

[harvs2]

They don't do a very good job of describing her, I think.

I think her form is simply that she is severely and totally ugly. She though really doesn't have particularly many powers, and I tend to not really think of her 'full-blown' Awnshegh, but rather as an emerging one (though she is quite powerful).

As a note of Bloodform/Bloodtrait...I tend to think that these two powers and the forms they they produce are really simply mirror images of the creature transforming. The White Witch is a vile woman, who is as vain as she is evil. Her bloodform corresponds to her thus making her outside as her inside (and giving her some power in return).

If you pay attention to the themes within the Awnshegh within the Blood Enemies, you will generally note this type of relationship between form and personality.

[geeman]

At 01:09 PM 6/14/2004 +0200, anacreon wrote:



>I have read the entry for the White Witch in "Blood Enemies"

>several times, and I fail to understand why she is considered awnshagh. It

>seems as though any special power she possesses (other than standard blood

>abilities) come from her rings, and not from any bloodform. If she has no

>monstrous traits, why then is she considered awnshegh and not just a

>powerful blooded priestess, with a special connection to her goddess (as

>demonstrated by the ring she got as a present from Kriesha)? If she is

>indeed awnshegh, what is her blood-induced Form?



Her awnshegh transformation becomes a bit more obvious if one realizes that

she`s really a thirteen-year-old Khinasi boy. Her bloodform theme might

then be described as "old lady transsexual" and she is probably more

transformed than even the Gorgon....



Seriously, though, the WW is one of the more troublingly classified

awnsheghlien, not just because of her own status as a "major awnshegh" but

because of the implications of the character. She is, in fact, not just

considered an awnshegh, but she is lumped into the category of "Major

Awnsheghlien" (the chapter title of the BE section in which she appears)

where the Swordhawk, who would appear to be more transformed and a more

obvious candidate for that classification, is in the "Lesser Awnsheghlien"

chapter. Several others in the "Lesser Awnshegh" chapter would seem more

transformed than the WW.



Not only that, but she has blood abilities beyond the capacity of her

bloodline in the original BR system. Two minor, two major and a great

blood ability with a minor, 20 bloodline. If we assume the best possible

rolls on the old Table 12: Blood Ability Acquisition, at that bloodline

strength/score she could not have had more than a minor, one major and one

great--and that would be pretty unlikely; 10,000 to 1. It`s got to happen

sometime but still....



When it comes to the theme of her transformation, I would suggest that it

is based on her being the stereotypical "old witch." She is "a hag" (lower

case "h") in the BR sense of a monstrous creature of mythic proportion--not

necessarily similar to the one in the MM. There already is a Hag (upper

case "H") in the BR pantheon of awnsheghlien, so I`m hesitant to use that

term (especially since The Hag would appear to be more like one of the

Gorgon sisters in the Greek mythology) but that`s pretty close to the

character`s theme in the more common mythology/folktales.



When it comes to the minor/major classification issue of awnsheghlien, I

don`t think anyone is really concerned about that but me.... I did,

however, find a solution that I think works surprisingly well, and it aptly

describes the situation with the WW, so I`ll reiterate it. I`ve mentioned

a couple of times on the boards/list that I use a system of portraying

blood abilities using points (called BP) which allows for a lot of

customization of blood abilities and the effects of awn-/ersheghlien

transformation. In that system, there is a feat called "Major

Transformation" that gives the character another BP. It costs the

character since s/he then has more difficulty resisting the change into an

awnshegh (a Will save when levelling up) if they have the blood of Azrai,

but since many of them embrace that change its not such a problem for

them. Taking this feat is a voluntary act and represents the character

embracing his/er transformation. The WW is then lumped into the "Major

Awnsheghlien" category for no other reason than because she has taken this

feat, while lesser awnshegh (and ershegh) appear in their own chapter with

nothing more than a blurb because they have not.



When it comes to the unusual number and the power of the WW`s blood

abilities there is some text in the original BR rules for such creatures

that indicated that number and power of an awn-/ershegh`s blood abilities

are increased by their transformation. The WW`s unusual (impossible)

number of blood abilities for her bloodline score would appear to exemplify

this process. Unfortunately, there wasn`t much in the way of actual game

mechanical description for how that might work. It was, essentially, an ad

hoc process left entirely up to the discretion of the DM without any

guidelines whatsoever other than the other awnsheghlien character descriptions.



In a 3e/D20 update of the setting, however, we can use an "Awnshegh"

character class that handles the character`s development. If such a class

grants a Bonus BP and transformations (or some other method of increasing

blood abilities and reflecting the physical change) there is a game

mechanical way of articulating both the transformation that have taken

place and increasing the character`s blood abilities in a steady,

incremental way. Characters who take levels in the class in the BP System

get a Bonus BP every level, which can be used to improve existing blood

abilities, add new blood abilities, or it can be spent on getting an

additional Transformation effect. In that context, the transformation of

the White Witch is mostly a character whose Bonus BP from awnshegh levels

are dedicated to improving her existing blood abilities. If using such a

system to portray awnsheghlien, given the number and power of her blood

abilities she would seem to deserve the "major awnsheghlien" appellation.



I should also note that in the BP system there is some information on how a

scion of Azrai must actively resist the transformation into an awnshegh by

making a Will save when levelling up. It`s interesting (to me, at least)

to note that the WW has levels in a cleric character class that has the

fastest Will save progression, meaning that she could be "less transformed"

than other awnsheghlien because she has made the appropriate Will saves and

taken levels as a priest rather than being forced to take levels in the

awnshegh class. Since there is a feat to define what is meant by "major

awnsheghlien" one need not connect up that concept to the actual character

levels in the Awnshegh class.



A version of the awnshegh character class can be found in the birthright-l

archives at:



http://oracle.wizards.com/scripts/wa.exe?A2=ind0404D&L=birthright-l&P=R5083



or, if you prefer, in the birthright.net boards under the "Rhoubhe

Manslayer" thread at:



http://www.birthright.net/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=2&t=2528



Laters,

Gary

[Osprey]

So will anyone take a stab at posting her 3.5 stats?

Every time I hear White Witch, I can only think of The Lion, The Witch, and the Wardrobe. :D There is an indelible imprint in my mind, I suppose that's what comes of reading books over and over and over... :blink:

Osprey

[geeman]

At 03:22 AM 6/15/2004 +0200, Osprey wrote:



>So will anyone take a stab at posting her 3.5 stats?

>

>Every time I hear White Witch, I can only think of The Lion, The Witch,

>and the Wardrobe. :D There is an indelible imprint in my mind, I

>suppose that`s what comes of reading books over and over and over... :blink:



I`m in the "Imprinted by C.S. Lewis at an Early Age" club too, not that

that`s such a bad thing....



Anyway, give me a while and I`ll take stab at her stats, using the Awnshegh

character class. I`ve avoided posting any of the existing awnsheghlien

using that system, but maybe it`s time to do so.



Gary

[geeman]

OK, folks, I`m going to start in on the White Witch conversion to 3e/D20,

but first I want to raise a couple of issues/get a few suggestions from the

good folks in the BR community.



Regarding Ability Scores: We don`t know from the original BR materials

what her 2e stats were other than that her intelligence which is given as

20 and her charisma is given as 9 (or 19 with her Ring of Beauty in

effect.) Strength, dexterity, constitution and wisdom are pretty much

unknown. As much as possible I like to start with the Standard Array for

ability scores, or scores that are close to those values when it comes to

the point buy method of character generation. Here are, however, a few

notes regarding how I plan to set her stats:



Strength. She avoids combat and wields only a dagger, so this will be her

lowest score. I`ll start it at 8 and possibly even give her a disadvantage

(from the awnshegh character class) to lower it a bit more. Since her

transformation theme is "haggish old witch" such a disadvantage is

thematically sensible.



Constitution. The WW has 45hp in BE. That`s very low for a character with

14 priest levels. The average hp for a 14th level priest would be 63 (2e

characters did not normally start with max hp at 1st level.) That would

imply a penalty in her constitution score. In addition to the information

in the character description that indicates the WW avoids physical

confrontation there`s plenty of evidence to indicate that this is one of

her lower stats, so again I`m thinking I should start it off at 8 and maybe

even give her a disadvantage to lower it to 6 if it makes sense.



Dexterity. This one is weird because in BE her AC changes with her

transformation between crone (AC 3) and beauty (AC 6) but there`s no

indication that her dexterity is changed by the magic item that changes her

physical appearance and Cha stat. When the character uses that magic item,

however, it appears to be the only change. She might be donning and

doffing some sort of armor, but why would she, and why wouldn`t that be

described in some way? Because this transformation is not due to her

bloodline/awnshegh status, however, I`m thinking it might make sense to

assign that effect to the Ring of Beauty description instead. It would

help balance the power of that magic item if it were "cursed" in some way

in addition to the lawful good/nicey-nicey way it forces the wearer to

behave. Comments?



Intelligence. As noted, this stat is at 20 in the BE entry. In 2e, of

course, ability scores only had bonuses at either ends of the scale

(starting at 15) so in 3e we can let this slide a bit. It is one of her

higher stats, and her "financial genius" is featured pretty prominently in

the character description, so it will be high in this version as well. The

WW does, however, have the Heightened Ability blood ability, and we don`t

know if that affects her intelligence or charisma since it could affect

either in the original 2e version of BR. I`m probably going to put her

intelligence at 14 using the standard array/point buy method of character

generation, give her a point or two bump for levelling up, and assume her

blood ability is pushing it up the rest of the way.



Wisdom. The only way I can see to gauge the WW`s wisdom score is by the

number of bonus spells she is granted amongst her list of spells in

BE. Unfortunately, the list of spells would seem be impossible for a 14th

level 2e priest with any wisdom score. Among those in that character

description are ten 1st, eight 2nd, eight 3rd, eight 4th, five 5th, three

6th and two 7th level spells or 10, 8, 8, 8, 5, 3, 2. The spells for a

14th level priest in 2e were 6, 6, 6, 5, 3, 2, 1, so she`s got 4, 2, 2, 3,

2, 1, 1 bonus spells. There is no 2e wisdom score that grants that number

of bonus spells. It`s off on at least a couple of those levels. In order

to get ten 1st level spells she`d have to have a wisdom score of at least

23, but to get that second 7th level spell it`d have to be at least 25. At

25 wisdom, however, she`d get three 6th level bonus spells. There`s no

real rhyme or reason to it that I can discern.



Nonetheless, the WW is a priest, so her wisdom score should be high. Since

she gets scads of bonus spells for a 2e priest it would appear to be higher

than her intelligence score, so that will be her highest starting ability

score, and raising it will be the focus of her transformation effects.



Charisma. This stat is given as 9 with a magic item that grants what would

probably be called a +10 "inherit" bonus in 3e/D20. Is there any

particular reason to change that?



Regarding Character Levels: As I mentioned I`m going to portray her using

an Awnshegh character class. I`m hoping not to push her over 20 character

levels, however. She is a 14th level priest in 2e BR, and that was the

"magic number" for 2e priests since the major characteristic of that class

that it gets her access to 7th level spells--the 2e maximum divine spell

level. In 3e clerics get access to 7th level spells at 13th level,

however, so it might make sense to shift her down a notch.



Regarding Bloodline Score: The WW`s bloodline strength/score is very low,

especially for a character with a realm as large as her`s. I`m not

planning on changing her score drastically, but if I added a point or two

would anybody mind?



Any objections or comments regarding these other issues in translating the

White Witch into D20?



TIA for your input,

Gary

[anacreon]

Originally posted by geeman@Jun 15 2004, 07:40 AM

Dexterity. This one is weird because in BE her AC changes with her transformation between crone (AC 3) and beauty (AC 6) but there`s no indication that her dexterity is changed by the magic item that changes her physical appearance and Cha stat. When the character uses that magic item, however, it appears to be the only change. She might be donning and doffing some sort of armor, but why would she, and why wouldn`t that be described in some way? Because this transformation is not due to her bloodline/awnshegh status, however, I`m thinking it might make sense to assign that effect to the Ring of Beauty description instead. It would help balance the power of that magic item if it were "cursed" in some way in addition to the lawful good/nicey-nicey way it forces the wearer to behave. Comments?

I think it is more logical to assume that the White Witch possesses a ring of protection +3, that she has to take off whenever she dons her ring of charisma (remember that in 2nd ed AC, the lower the better).

While we're on the subject of the ring, if the ring makes the wearer Lawful Good, how con a lawful good person give it up, knowing that doing so will make her evil? I mean, if you're lawful good, why on earth would you do something just for the sake of enabling you to lie cheat and steal?

[Osprey]

Gary,

It sounds to me like the Ring of Beauty affects a physical transformation similar to an Alter Self spell.

For AC, I would assume that the WW's Natural Armor she gets from being a hag is lost while in the form of a soft, beautiful woman...however, her Dex might also be better when not old and withered, so perhaps these stats:
Hag, AC 17: Dex 8, +6 Natural Amor, +2 Deflection
Beauty, AC 14: Dex 14, +0 natural armor, +2 Deflection

Then assume she wears a +2 Ring of Protection, or maybe has Protection from Good as a major blood ability of Azrai, which would give her +2 Deflection AC against good-aligned characters at least.

Anyways, these would give her equivalent 3.x AC stats to the original.

I think natural Armor being part of her true form makes sense - the price of beauty [from the ring] is the softness of that form, so vulnerable... ;)


Otherwise, I think the low Strength and Con make great sense, as does the low Charisma...although I think even ugly people can be charismatic when they wield great power. Which means the WW must be REALLY UGLY and repulsive as a crone. I would add some serious disadvatages, not just ugly: foul-smelling, ill-kempt, curled and haggard, always a cruel sneer to her lips, a strand of spittle hanging or flying from her protruding lip...[yummy]

If you're gonna do ugly, take it all the way, baby! Full throttle to REPULSIVE!!! :o

A straight conversion of 2e to 3e would give the WW an Int of 22 (+6 modifier). I would translate "financial genius" into the Master Administrator feat, along with a maxed Administrate skill.

So what's the WW a Cleric of? Kreisha? Azrai? Erik? Laerme? The Cold Rider?

Domains: Charm? Winter? ???

Not sure what to tell you for what her Wisdom score should be.
However, giving her a Periapt of Wisdom +4 or +6 might help explain a super-high Wisdom score for bonus spells, without it needing to be a permanent stat. Might be a good choice in this case. A natural Wisdom of 20, with +6 enhancement bonus [26], seems more reasonable and believable for this level character.

Also, there's always the chance of inherent bonuses from finding a Tome of Understanding or similar work. [Though what 17th+ level spellcaster would blow the XP for making one of these puppies for someone else is beyond me...]

I'd be opposed to her Wisdom being raised with blood abilities - this seems somewhat opposed to Azrai's bloodline, whereas Intelligence and Charisma are the favored traits.


Some other ideas:

Give her [Greater] Spell Focus: Necromancy, not for the undead-raising aspects but rather to raise the DC's on her Bestow Curse spells, and secondarily on Inflict spells. (It's a pity we can't adopt the Ravenloft cursing system here). I see the "Curse of the White Witch" being an appropriate tool of fear and legend to deal with her rivals and those who displease her.

Some ideas, anyways.

Osprey

[geeman]

At 07:53 AM 6/15/2004 +0200, anacreon wrote:



> I think it is more logical to assume that the White Witch possesses a

> ring of protection +3, that she has to take off whenever she dons her

> ring of charisma



That is much better. Kudos.



>While we`re on the subject of the ring, if the ring makes the wearer

>Lawful Good, how con a lawful good person give it up, knowing that doing

>so will make her evil? I mean, if you`re lawful good, why on earth would

>you do something just for the sake of enabling you to lie cheat and steal?



I don`t think the lawful good aspect is really an alignment change per se,

but meant to reflect the ring`s magical effect. The description of the

ring does say that the wearer is aware of the personality change, which is

sometimes not the case with items that are "cursed" or otherwise affecting

the alignment or personality of the character, and this is not that kind of

effect. Rather, it just requires a certain type of behavior while

functioning, the idea being that lies, deceit, etc. are not

"beautiful." ("Truth is beauty, beauty is truth.") Thematically, if one

is going to do something "ugly" then the ring has to be removed.



Gary

[geeman]

At 09:16 AM 6/15/2004 +0200, Osprey wrote:



> So what`s the WW a Cleric of? Kreisha? Azrai? Erik? Laerme? The Cold Rider?

>

> Domains: Charm? Winter? ???



She`s a priestess of Karesha. For her domains charm sure sounds like it

would make sense for the character....



> Not sure what to tell you for what her Wisdom score should be.

> However, giving her a Periapt of Wisdom +4 or +6 might help explain a

> super-high Wisdom score for bonus spells, without it needing to be a

> permanent stat. Might be a good choice in this case. A natural Wisdom

> of 20, with +6 enhancement bonus [26], seems more reasonable and

> believable for this level character.

>

> Also, there`s always the chance of inherent bonuses from finding a Tome

> of Understanding or similar work. [Though what 17th+ level spellcaster

> would blow the XP for making one of these puppies for someone else is

> beyond me...]

>

> I`d be opposed to her Wisdom being raised with blood abilities - this

> seems somewhat opposed to Azrai`s bloodline, whereas Intelligence and

> Charisma are the favored traits.



One of the things a character can do with the Awnshegh/Ershegh character

class is raise any ability score regardless of derivation. Since the theme

of the characters can be so broad I wrote it up to make for any possibility

and, in fact, made even the regular Heightened Ability blood ability

possibly effect any ability score at the DM`s discretion and/or after the

ones suggested by the original BR materials had been addressed. On the

whole ability scores are so general a thing that it seems like the blood of

the gods should be able to influence just about any of them in some

way. At least, for the purposes of the more general BR

gods/derivations. One should remain "on theme" of course, but given that

anything should be possible.



I will definitely keep in mind that her wisdom score might be improved by

magic items, however. That seems to be particularly apt given the

character description that says specifically that she has something of a

hoard of them. (That`s not unusual for some of the major awnshegh, though

it is unusual for BR in general.)



> Give her [Greater] Spell Focus: Necromancy, not for the undead-raising

> aspects but rather to raise the DC`s on her Bestow Curse spells, and

> secondarily on Inflict spells. (It`s a pity we can`t adopt the Ravenloft

> cursing system here). I see the "Curse of the White Witch"

> being an appropriate tool of fear and legend to deal with her rivals and

> those who displease her.



Interesting. I think you`re right, there definitely should be a curse

function going on. Out of curiosity, does this seem like something that

should be a function of her bloodline or of her character levels?



Gary

[graham anderson]

Ok much like the person that started the post I do not see the white witch as and anshe she is an evil tyrant with azrais blood that changes her appearance and may be veiwed by the people of cerilia as a anshe.

She is not an anshe as she has no bloodform ability.

People have pointed out that she has to meny spells and blood abilitys but this is easily explained as their are spells and magic items that can increase both the number of spells and the number or strength of your bloodabilitys.

Also it does not say how meny spells she knows it tells you what spells she often recieves much like the mages spells known.

Also the white witch has average human charisma and most of her uglyness comes from the fact that she is very old. When she uses magic she often makes herself appear as she was when she was young.

[geeman]

At 12:55 PM 6/15/2004 +0200, Graham Anderson wrote:



> She is not an anshe as she has no bloodform ability.



Interestingly enough, in the character descriptions for the awnsheghlien in

BE there are many that do not have the Bloodform blood ability. Becoming

an ersheghlien would appear to require having Bloodtrait, but awnshegh do

not appear to need the Bloodform blood ability.



> People have pointed out that she has to meny spells and blood abilitys

> but this is easily explained as their are spells and magic items that can

> increase both the number of spells and the number or strength of your

> bloodabilitys.



A couple of magic items might explain her spell list....



> Also it does not say how meny spells she knows it tells you what spells

> she often recieves much like the mages spells known.



That may be, though it would be something of a departure from the way they

typically list spells in character descriptions in 2e.



Gary

[graham anderson]

Interestingly enough, in the character descriptions for the awnsheghlien in
BE there are many that do not have the Bloodform blood ability. Becoming
an ersheghlien would appear to require having Bloodtrait, but awnshegh do
not appear to need the Bloodform blood ability

The hydra, kraken , leviathan, the minotaur, magian, siren, wolf

these are the ones along with the white witch that do not have bloodform but they have not changed their form the hydra is still a crocodile the kraken still a kraken etc. The only exception is the minotaur and there is nothing known for sure about him so he may not have changed his form either or he may have had is form changed by magic and not the blood.

These are powerfull and dangerous creatures with bloodlines but not anshe as they have no bloodform. They are however veiwed as anshe by most try telling the brechts that the kraken isn't an anshe.

[geeman]

At 02:42 PM 6/15/2004 +0200, graham anderson wrote:



>
Interestingly enough, in the character descriptions for the

> awnsheghlien in

> BE there are many that do not have the Bloodform blood ability. Becoming

> an ersheghlien would appear to require having Bloodtrait, but awnshegh do

> not appear to need the Bloodform blood ability

>

> The hydra, kraken , leviathan, the minotaur, magian, siren, wolf

>

>these are the ones along with the white witch that do not have bloodform

>but they have not changed their form the hydra is still a crocodile the

>kraken still a kraken etc. The only exception is the minotaur and there is

>nothing known for sure about him so he may not have changed his form

>either or he may have had is form changed by magic and not the blood.



Apocolypse and the Harpy also do not have the Bloodform blood ability and

are listed amongst the "major awnsheghlien" chapter of BE.



Regardless of that, however, several of those characters are transformed

pretty significantly from standard creatures, often more than other

characters who do have the Bloodform blood ability. The Boar, for

instance, has the Bloodform blood ability but isn`t particularly more

transformed then the Wolf (who does not) is. The circumstances of the

Chimaera`s transformation (who has Bloodform) are as unusual as that of the

Harpy (who does not.) Rhoubhe Manslayer and the Raven are not as

transformed as are most of the other awnsheghlien despite the fact that

they have the bloodform blood ability.



>These are powerfull and dangerous creatures with bloodlines but not anshe

>as they have no bloodform. They are however veiwed as anshe by most try

>telling the brechts that the kraken isn`t an anshe.



There is a lot of material in BR that purposefully conveys a mistaken or

otherwise coloured POV, but I don`t think the classification of ten of the

twenty-five main characters in the BE text as major awnsheghlien is one of

them. I seriously doubt that it was the intent of the authors to make

these characters exceptional versions of standard monsters with a

bloodline, or that that interpretation really suits the setting very

much. Using 3e/D20 it is easier to reinterpret these creatures in ways

that do not require an awnshegh transformation. They might be dire

animals, a template applied, or in some cases simply have their HD

advanced, but that was pretty much the case before 3e came out as

well. One could always write up unique monsters and assign them values in

ways that had nothing to do with bloodline or any campaign specific

material. Given that awnsheghlien are such a central focus of the campaign

setting it seems like a waste to reinterpret such a large portion of the

iconic creatures of the BR campaign setting into advanced, but otherwise

standard D&D monsters.



Gary

[graham anderson]

I forgot about the harpy and appocalypse it explains about the harpy in her background and again nobody realy knows about the appocalypse.

I don't think you can be a anshe without bloodform that is the point of the ability.


Regardless of that, however, several of those characters are transformed
pretty significantly from standard creatures, often more than other
characters who do have the Bloodform blood ability. The Boar, for
instance, has the Bloodform blood ability but isn`t particularly more
transformed then the Wolf (who does not) is. The circumstances of the
Chimaera`s transformation (who has Bloodform) are as unusual as that of the
Harpy (who does not.) Rhoubhe Manslayer and the Raven are not as
transformed as are most of the other awnsheghlien despite the fact that
they have the bloodform blood ability

The boar is far more transformed than the wolf the wolf has some blood abilitys but not bloodform and is still a wolf.

Rhoubhe Manslayer and the Raven have changed through bloodform and the changes are not just physical but mental with rhoubhe being lawfull. They have both changed though while the kraken etc have not.


There is a lot of material in BR that purposefully conveys a mistaken or
otherwise coloured POV, but I don`t think the classification of ten of the
twenty-five main characters in the BE text as major awnsheghlien is one of
them. I seriously doubt that it was the intent of the authors to make
these characters exceptional versions of standard monsters with a
bloodline, or that that interpretation really suits the setting very
much. Using 3e/D20 it is easier to reinterpret these creatures in ways
that do not require an awnshegh transformation. They might be dire
animals, a template applied, or in some cases simply have their HD
advanced, but that was pretty much the case before 3e came out as
well. One could always write up unique monsters and assign them values in
ways that had nothing to do with bloodline or any campaign specific
material. Given that awnsheghlien are such a central focus of the campaign
setting it seems like a waste to reinterpret such a large portion of the
iconic creatures of the BR campaign setting into advanced, but otherwise
standard D&D monsters.

I think it was intended for them not to be anshe but remember that the people of cerilia don't know things like what blood abilitys they have. These beings are different and exceptional so the people view them as anshe. An anshe is someone that has been changed by bloodform into soemthing else than the original. Anshe is also an elven word and may be understood diferently by elves and the humans.
When it comes to these figures they are powerfull usualy landed and are the figures that you are going to be going against in the game they have been put in the book as adversarys.

I don't see it as reinterpreting them as not anshe they wern't anshe to begin with but they are good adversarys.

thats my opinion anyway.

[geeman]

Regarding the WW`s rings and other magic items, here`s what I`m thinking so

far:



Wintering: This magical ring was a gift direct from the White Witch`s

patron, Karesha. It is a minor artifact that renders the wearer immune to

cold-based damage and allows the wearer to use the following spell-like

abilities as standard actions:

* Freezing Sphere (at will.) This power is the equivalent of a Flaming

Sphere spell with the energy type changed to cold.

* Ice Storm (3/day.)

* Call Blizzard (1/week.) This power is equivalent to the Control

Weather spell`s blizzard effect.

Strong abjuration and evocation; CL 12th



The BE entry for this ring would appear to allow the wearer to cast the

equivalent of a cold-based Fireball spell at will. There is, at least, no

number of times per day that ability can be used listed in the item

description. A 10d6 icy explosion at will seems pretty over-the-top to me

for a 3e magic item, especially since the ring also has the Ice Storm

ability with is very similar and that is limited to 3/day, so I think

reducing the ability to a the equivalent of Flaming Sphere is prudent.



CL 12th is kind of low for a minor artifact, but that is how it is

described in BE. It can`t really hurt to raise it given that the spell

effects aren`t drastically altered in a 3e format other than range. Any

objections or comments on that?



Ring of Beauty: When the White Witch dons her ring of beauty she is

physically transformed (equivalent to Alter Self) into a youthful and

beautiful woman. In addition, the ring of beauty grants her a +10

enhancement bonus to her charisma. As a side effect, the wearer must at

all times behave in a lawful and good manner while wearing the ring. Any

attempt to lie, cheat, steal or otherwise deceive while wearing the ring of

beauty is impossible (no use of bluff skill and -20 penalty to diplomacy

checks made to negotiate.) No actions can be performed to harm another

person that are not in self-defense.

Strong transmutation; CL 12th



In 3e/D20 terms, I think the ring of beauty should also be considered a

minor artifact. At least, that +10 to charisma is pretty much beyond

"standard" magic items. As far as the specifics of the wearer`s behavior

and the game mechanical effects are concerned is there anything other than

an inability to bluff and a penalty to diplomatic negotiation checks that

should be used in a 3e version of that ring?



Again, CL 12th is rather low for a minor artifact.



I`m planning on giving the WW a periapt of wisdom +4 and an additional ring

of protection +3 to wear when she removes her ring of beauty. I`ll

probably give her some sort of magical dagger with a special power as her

"hold out" weapon, but I haven`t decided specifically what that will

be. She`ll also have bracers of armor +4 (or so.)



She`ll have an assortment of potions and scrolls, most of which I`m not

really planning on listing individually other than to note that she will

often have several of a few specific types available at any given time.



The WW is supposed to have a large assortment of magic items, at least a

few of which intimidate her neighbors. Any ideas on what those might

be? Items that store or recall cast spells might explain her rather odd

spell list in the BE entry (particularly 5th level spells) though I don`t

think anyone would be unusually intimidated by such a thing....



Thoughts?



Gary

[graham anderson]

I don't think that the ring should give you a +10 to cha it changes who you are giving you a 19cha

I think that it should be that if someone puts it on they get 19 cha whatever there cha is.

As for magic items , A magic item that replicates a blood ability, A magic item that summons a ice elemental like the ice giants ability, an orb of winter enabling her to prunge another land into an extended winter. These are just a few ideas I hope they help.

[geeman]

At 02:00 PM 6/16/2004 +0200, graham anderson wrote:



> I don`t think that the ring should give you a +10 to cha it changes who

> you are giving you a 19chaI think that it should be that if someone puts

> it on they get 19 cha whatever there cha is.



That`s interesting. Generally, in 3e/D20 they did away with the function

of some 2e magic items that simply set an ability score value (like girdles

of giant strength or gauntlets of ogre power) rather than provided a bonus

to that stat. I`m not opposed to going against that trend for a magic item

of this type since it does, as you note, have a kind of broader

implication what with it`s alignment change and the way that works. I`m

curious, however, what would happen in this particular interpretation if a

character who had a 20+ charisma put on that ring? Would their stat be

"replaced" by the lawful good/19 charisma personality imposed on them by

the ring or would their higher stat prevail?



>As for magic items , A magic item that replicates a blood ability, A magic

>item that summons a ice elemental like the ice giants ability, an orb of

>winter enabling her to prunge another land into an extended winter. These

>are just a few ideas I hope they help.



Yeah, she should have at least one of those items in her inventory....



Gary

[Osprey]

The Orb of Winter's Fury.

I like it. :D

It could be a "winterized" version of an Orb of Storms, really, or could even be an orb of storms, just typically used by the WW for wintry purposes up in the cold northern wilds. You could also allow it to cast Winter's Fury (realm spell, see Raesene's revised Ch 7 section for details) once per year without the WW paying RP/GB or needing a temple to do so...that would be fun.

Along similar lines, what about an artifact that would let her cast Blight lands as a Court Action once a season or once a year? Rod of the Blight? Kind of an opposite to the Staff of Prosperity, though I'd up its power a bit. This adds a domain-level Cursing effect, which IS definitely a very real (an appropriate) threat to hold over one's neighbors. Especially if the item acts as its own level 1 temple, allowing the spell to be cast wherever the rod is. Now that sounds like a fine tool for the witch's arsenal.


I like the ring granting 19 Charisma. though by 3e stats, I'd make it an even number, otherwise it's kinda silly. 20 charisma is the 3e equivalent of 19 in 2e, so I'd go with that. But granting a flat 20 Charisma, with the LG stipulations, seems cool and unique and I'd go with it.

When making singular items, you are essentially creating artifacts, and these are somewhat ad hoc anyways, so don't worry too much about precedent in standard magic items. Also, by having the ring grant a set charisma, you avoid it being equated to an epic magic item.

Nonetheless, granting 20 Charisma is powerful. I'd make the Caster Level 15th-20th level. After all, the WW didn't make the ring herself, if she could she wouln't have made the LG limitation! If it's really an artifact. I'd make the caster level 20th. This makes it more inaccessible for anyone even trying to make one themselves (whether the DM would allow it or not is a different issue), and most importantly makes it more resistant to dispelling, damage, and cancellation. i.e., more survivable as an item.

Osprey

[graham anderson]

I like those idea osprey how about something that shows her more insideous nature something with an effect like the realm spells subversion, demagogue.

Or maybe an other effect of the orb of winters fury. similar to the warding spell it summons a snow storm trapping any units in the province and preventing units from entering it. Or another item.

[Osprey]

Or maybe an other effect of the orb of winters fury. similar to the warding spell it summons a snow storm trapping any units in the province and preventing units from entering it. Or another item.

That's pretty much the effect of Winter's Fury as a realm spell. I'll repost Raesene's writeup here:


Winter’s Fury
(Transmutation)

Spell Level: Divine [Kriesha] 3
Gold: 4 GB
Regency: 12 RP
Target: One province
Duration: 1 week + 2 days/level
Required Holding: Temple 3

In the cold wastes of Vosgaard, many travellers have reported sudden storms that appear out of nowhere and last for days. With this realm spell, a cleric can summon a powerful blizzard that covers an entire province, trapping invaders and potentially ending an attack if the invader is unprepared for the deadly conditions. The cleric may prevent the spell from taking effect for up to a week before its power overwhelms her control and the blizzard in unleashed.
The spell is not limited by the season and even in the middle of summer; those caught in the province take the full effects of the conditions. After the blizzard has passed, the snow dropped by the blizzard can be up to several feet deep and this could cause additional problems for invaders and the province’s population.
Army units caught unprepared by the blizzard conditions suffer one hit of subdual damage for each hour of exposure, unless they find suitable shelter. An army prepared for winter conditions must still find shelter, but have up to a day before the conditions begin to take their toll. If they are unable to find shelter after a day, units take one hit of subdual damage for each day of exposure. Soldiers in a unit reduced to 0 hits will die unless they are immediately given shelter and aid.
Individuals caught unprepared by the blizzard suffer the effects of extreme cold and severe winds, as described in the section on the environment in the Dungeon Master’s guide.


Pretty viscious, don't see much need to reinvent the wheel when Raesene has laid all the groundwork. :)

[graham anderson]

True enough osprey winters fury would do the the job.

[anacreon]

Originally posted by graham anderson@Jun 15 2004, 04:42 PM
Rhoubhe Manslayer and the Raven have changed through bloodform and the changes are not just physical but mental with rhoubhe being lawfull. They have both changed though while the kraken etc have not.

Ummm... Rhoubhe is Neutral Evil... honest!

[geeman]

At 06:36 PM 6/17/2004 +0200, anacreon wrote:



>Roubhe is Neutral Evil...



That`s correct. There is, however, text that would indicate he`s on his

way towards lawfulness and that he might be best described in 2e as

"Neutral Evil (lawful)." How long might that change take place is

anybody`s guess....



Gary

[anacreon]

Why would that happen? Azrai was NE not LE after all... so why would an awnshegh who is already NE change his alignment to grow further away from Azrai?

[geeman]

At 10:47 AM 6/20/2004 +0200, anacreon wrote:



> Why would that happen? Azrai was NE not LE after all... so why would an

> awnshegh who is already NE change his alignment to grow further away from

> Azrai?



Actually, there`s been a little debate on what Azrai`s alignment was. We

don`t actually have anything that says what it was outright. He is, of

course, evil but we don`t really know for sure what his disposition was

towards law/chaos. You can find some discussion of the issue under the

title "Azrai`s Alignment" in the archives.



Generally, I think the gods are "above" such things as alignment. They

might ascribe (or be ascribed) to one particular alignment, but on the

whole their association is more directly related to some "primal force"

that they embody. That primal force might lend itself to one of the

cardinal alignment descriptions, but that relationship is incidental to the

more direct relationship of the god to his/her spheres of

influence. That`s why the priests of Cerilia`s pantheon have can have so

many different alignments.



When it comes to Azrai, for instance, I think one of this major areas is in

the corruption or perversion of others both physically and mentally. If

looked at from the standpoint of the alignment system that is most likely a

chaotic (and evil) emphasis. However, the true motivating force is

corruption not chaos. If there is some lawful aspect of corruption then

that takes precedence over the generalized interpretation of the god as

chaotic. Rhoubhe is a good example of such a situation. An elf is more

fully "corrupted" by becoming more lawful since that race is by inclination

chaotic. Rhoubhe has been perverted by his bloodline into something that

is now a misanthropic (possibly even miselfthropic?) parody of his original

self.



Gary

[irdeggman]

IMO Azrai's alignment was chaotic evil.

References include BoR pg 26 the path of evil "When a scion with the blood of Azrai commits an evil or chaotic act. . ."

Bloodspawn sidebar on pg 5 "That god became Lord of Shadow, the god of Chaos and change. He bacame Azrai."

[geeman]

OK, here`s the first draft of the WW`s stats. Some notes:



0. I`m using my own system and tweaks to come up with this character

description, not the one in the BRCS. I`ll not go into my tweaks for the

sake of everyone`s eyeballs, and because for the most part it should be

invisible to the BR "user community" for the sake of the description

itself. Ideally, one uses such a system and is left with a workable

character whose stats, abilities and faults are balanced with the existing

rules, and that still expresses the theme of the character. There may be

differences here and there, but when it comes to actual play the end result

should be fully functional.



1. In the BP system the original 2e Charm Aura and Persuasion are combined

into the Persuasion blood ability. Instead of Charm Aura (major) and

Persuasion (major) this version of the WW has Persuasion with 7BP dedicated

to it (which would be equivalent to a great ability.) This grants her all

the powers of both those two original blood abilities, plus a few here and

there.



2. The original WW has Major Resistance (Charm) as a great blood

ability. In this 3e conversion, that ability is a pretty redundant because

she`s walking around with a +20 Will save modifier. (Actually, it was even

more redundant in 2e if her wisdom was as high as it would appear to be

since high wisdom in 2e granted spell immunities to most charm and fear

effects.) I could still give her the blood ability, but it would require

adding as many as three levels of the awnshegh class, and it just doesn`t

seem worthwhile because the character already has 18 character levels.



3. I raised her bloodline score to 21 from 20 because in the BP system at

21 she gets another BP and she`s got a lot of blood abilities. Also

because I`ve always been amazed that her bloodline score is so low in the

first place.... In fact, I wouldn`t mind bumping her up to around major,

30-35 since she is such a prominent character, but I`m trying to stay

relatively close to the original character description, so a single point

is a minor transgression. BTW: There is an older version of the BP system

available on birthright.net download section, but an updated version will

be forthcoming in my (seemingly never-ending) BR project now called

_Legendary Beings and Mythic Monsters_.



4. I reduced the WW`s cleric levels to 13 even though she is 14th level

priest in the original BR material since that is the point at which a

cleric can cast 7th level divine spells. Arguably, the WW had access to

the most powerful 2e divine spells, so she should in a 3e/D20 conversion,

but that would mean bumping up her cleric levels to 17. That doesn`t seem

quite right, and in combination with portraying the character using an

awnshegh character class would mean putting her a few levels into the epic

level, which I`m trying to avoid.



5. The feats Blood Aesthete and Major Transformation are part of the BP

system and grant additional blood abilities, as do her levels as an

awnshegh. I also gave her an increase to her wisdom score from the

transformation effects of her awnshegh levels. Thematically, the WW has a

kind of "old crone" theme, and wisdom is often associated with age. At

least, that`s the justification for her wisdom bump as part of her awnshegh

transformation.



6. When it comes to the rest her feat selection, I figure the WW needs to

manufacture several types of magic items, so I gave her three item creation

feats; potions, rings and wondrous. It`s possible she created her ring of

beauty, but its origin is unexplained, so we don`t know for

sure. Regardless of that, rings figure prominently in Nordic myth, so she

should be able to create them IMO. Creating potions is kind of a

ubiquitous witch power, so she had to have that, and creating wondrous

items has a similar vibe. When it comes to her spell related feats, I had

her focus on both enchantment and necromantic. The WW is a sort of

dualistic character; one half focusing on charm, the other half upon curses

and other stereotypical witch-like, which is more necromantic. Game

mechanically it probably makes more sense to stick to one or the other, but

for the character I think a bit of both fits better.



7. I`ve not added a list of memorized spells in this character write up,

nor picked a domain for her since I haven`t found one yet that is quite

right.... She should, however, have +1 spell/level for domain spells and

some special ability.



8. Most of the stats below assume that the WW is wearing her ring of

beauty. The skill modifiers listed below, for instance, assume a charisma

score of 19. They do not, however, include modifiers if her Heightened

Ability (int) is in effect.



Here`s the 1st draft:



---ooOoo---



The White Witch

Cleric 13, Awnshegh 5

Medium-sized Awnshegh

Hit Dice: 13d8-13, 5d10-5 (71 hp)

Initiative: +1 (+1 dexterity)

Speed: 30 ft

AC: 15 or 18 (+1 dex, +4 or 7 magic)

Base Attack/Grapple: +13/+11

Attack: Dagger +13 melee (1d4)

Full Attack: Dagger +13/+8/+3 melee (1d4)

Face/Reach: 5 ft. by 5 ft./5 ft.

Special Attacks: Persuasion, Rebuke Undead (12/day), icy burst, spells

Special Qualities: Heightened Ability, Unreadable Thoughts

Saves: Fort +11 Ref +8 Will +20

Abilities: Str 6, Dex 12, Con 8, Int 16, Wis 24 or 28, Cha 9 or 19

Skills: Bluff +20, Concentration +12, Diplomacy +20, Intimidate +20,

Knowledge, arcana +12, Knowledge, religion +15, Profession, trade/finance

+20, Sense Motive +15, Spellcraft +15.

Feats: Blood Aesthete, Brew Potion, Craft Ring, Craft Wondrous Item,

Major Transformation, Spell Focus-Necromantic, Spell Focus-Enchantment/Charm.

Environment: Cold

Organization: Solitary

Challenge Rating: 14

Treasure: Standard

Alignment: Chaotic Evil/Lawful Good

Advancement: By character class

Level Adjustment: +0

Bloodline: Azrai, minor, 21.

Bloodline in BP Style: Az(5/21) Heightened Ability(1) Persuasion(7)

Unreadable Thoughts(3).



Inventory: Withering (see below), ring of beauty (see below), periapt

of wisdom +4, bracers of armor +4, dagger +2 of icy burst.

In addition to the items listed above that the White Witch carries on

her person she has access to a large supply of magic items. Some of these

items were made by the White Witch herself, others have been acquired from

various travellers in her domain. Amongst her hoard at any given time will

be 20-30 potions, a like number of scrolls, 5-10 magical weapons or armor

of +1 to +3 enchantment, and



Wintering: This magical ring was a gift direct from the White Witch`s

patron, Karesha. It is a minor artifact that renders the wearer immune to

cold-based damage and allows the wearer to use the following spell-like

abilities as standard actions:

* Freezing Sphere (at will.) This power is the equivalent of a Flaming

Sphere spell with the energy type changed to cold.

* Ice Storm (3/day.)

* Call Blizzard (1/week.) This power is equivalent to the Control

Weather spell`s blizzard effect.

Strong abjuration and evocation; CL 12th



Ring of Beauty: When the White Witch dons her ring of beauty she is

physically transformed (equivalent to Alter Self) into a youthful and

beautiful woman. The power of this ring is such that it can overcome the

changes of an awnsheghlien transformation, not only returning the character

to her original physical appearance, but enhancing that appearance to its

most comely form. In addition, the ring of beauty grants her a +10

enhancement bonus to her charisma. As a side effect, the wearer must at

all times behave in a lawful and good manner while wearing the ring. Any

attempt to lie, cheat, steal or otherwise deceive while wearing the ring of

beauty fails (no use of bluff skill and -20 penalty to diplomacy checks

made to negotiate.) No actions can be performed to harm another person

that are not in self-defense. The wearer of the ring of beauty is aware of

the changes made to her personality, and can remove the ring whenever she

desires in order to perform actions that it will not allow the wearer to

perform.

Strong transmutation; CL 12th

Note: The White Witch may not use her ability to rebuke undead while

wearing the ring of beauty.



COMBAT

The White Witch prefers not to engage in melee combat. She will let her

henchmen, hirelings and those she has charmed do her fighting while she

supports them by casting spells. If cornered she will fight with her dagger.

Heightened Ability: Once per day the White Witch may apply a 2-5 point

enhancement bonus to her intelligence score. This bonus remains in effect

for 1-4 hours.

Persuasion: This blood ability gives the White Witch the ability to cast

the following spells 1/day: Suggestion or Mass Suggestion, Charm Person or

Mass Charm, Charm Monster or Mass Charm Monster.

Unreadable Thoughts: The White Witch is immune to magics that detect her

alignment, presence, or read her thoughts.

Spells: 6/8/7/6/6/5/3/2 (plus domain spells.)