Concept of Diesmer and the Bloo

[James Ruhland]

>
> Here's a thought. How do we know there was only ONE Diesmaar? I mean,
> greater gods can take on some ungodly number of avatars (20+ I think),
> so what's to say that as Azrai spread out from Aduria, that he only went
> in one direction?
>
Well, because it was the Gods themselves, not their Avatars, that gave up
their power at Diesmaar. The death of a mere avatar, is, to a greater god,
a inconvienience at worst. Not a matter of divine life or death.

[Taragin@sprintmail.co]

Here's a thought. How do we know there was only ONE Diesmaar? I mean,
greater gods can take on some ungodly number of avatars (20+ I think),
so what's to say that as Azrai spread out from Aduria, that he only went
in one direction?
For all we know the deities in other parts of the world took on avatar
form in their regions to battle the encroaching Shadow, and so now
thanks to things like the Battle of Heilikae Desert and the Battle of
the Frostkist Sea, the whole of Æbrynis has bloodlines.

- --
Alexander

"The vengance of Heaven is slow but sure…" -- Kunou Tatewaki.

[Tim Nutting]

I too have been thinking quite a bit about the pre Shadow War period of
Aduria's history and what has become of those lands. I've been trying to
cobble together an idea of what the religious states were like in this time
and what the politics and peoples might have been like.

In drooling over the relics in the Book of Priestcraft I stumbled over the
Viper's Eye. This is perhaps the single most cryptic and rather confusing
item I've ever seen for BR. It opens with a description of Azrai before
the War of Shadow and says that he was not allways the incarnation of
terror and evil that he later became, and that he was a god of knowledge.
The description paints a picture of a being of pure buty, but vain. I
imagine that he revelled in knowledge as a means to gain power, and those
that followed him sought those goals as opposed to Vorynn's path of
peaceful magic and moonlight. I also imagine that the Adurians were
Azrai's people, just as the Anuireans were Anduirias' and the Masetians
were Masella's, etc.

Jump ahead to Deismar and we find that Azrai has finally found those people
who fled. This says one crucial thing, the gods of old were neither
omniescient nor omnipotent. Also, I have never seen in any other D&D game
where gods have physically manifested on the Prime Material. According to
everything I know, this is not possible, and rather frowned upon by Planar
powers. So we have a section that is completely outside the standard AD&D
millieu and an opportunity unmatched. Either Aebynis doesn't follow the
rules of the rest of the cosmos, or we just had an "artifact moment".

Now, at Deismar Azrai had pinned the Cerilians in a massive pincer, they
were outnumbered and outmached so horribly that only the self-sacrifice of
5 Gods could save them. The Vos and the Elves could not have done that
alone, so in my mind the Adurians were there, and in force. Also, assuming
that a god's power is directly tied to the number and strength of his/her
worshippers, it seems to me that Azrai's base of worship was absolutely
HUGE. He had the power to confront 5 gods at once. If he might have
dispatched 3 in mass combat that says something, but that it took all his
bretheren to match and beat him....

Lets backtrack a long ways now. Azrai has chased his bretheren out of
Aduria and captured as many of the tribal kinsmen as he could. Obviously
not everyone made it to Cerilia, and of those that didn't, not all of them
could have died. The Adurians, as Azrai's folk, are the chosen and the
favored on the continent of Aduria. Any of the five tribes left could
perhaps have equal footing, but they would most likely be slave peoples.
The Adurians were also of sufficient strenth to drive off ALL five tribes.
This means they dominated the continent in sheer numbers. Azrai values
knowledge (IMO) as a means to gain power, so the people of Aduria are well
learned and technologically advanced. Perhaps the empires of Aduria were
like unto the Age of Legends in Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time, in fact I
can easily see them so, filled with all forms of wonderful magic and
devices created by Azrai's priesthood. But also these lands were dominated
by the priesthood or perhaps the noble caste. After all evil and vanity
seek the betterment of self over others, and I can hardly see Azrai the
Vain, the Beautiful, as caring much if a few thousand peasants got
squished.

Now the years turn into centuries as the Adurians solidify their power base
on a continent not populated by monsters really (why else would Cerilia be
called "The Land of Monsters" in the Atlas of Cerilia) and not choked with
demi-humans. (Elves didn't seem to be a problem until the humans landed on
Cerilia). I can see this perios as a sort of Golden Age for the Adurians,
where Azrai's blessings run rich. Slowly the mood changes as the Vain One
becomes more obsessed with power. It isn't enough now that he holds an
entire continent and outnumbers his bretherens children, he must take them
away too.

So he makes the Viper's Eye for Atar of the Vos. Atar becomes the first of
the Lost. Here is another piece to support that the gods of old were not
all knowing/powerful. Azrai is able to hide his influence for Vorynn and
sneak around on Cerilia. Not something an avatar is normally capable of.
They fairly reek of divine essences and power, and should have been
eminently visible. Azrai also had guts. Of all the old gods, Vorynn is
his antithesis at this point. Knowledge for the betterment of others.
Vorynn probably knew Azrai best of all.

As a side note, I think Atar is something of a special case. He and the
other Lost are unique in the AD&D millieu, and rather outside the rules.
The Viper's Eye description talks of how Azrai lured Atar into working dark
arts and magic, but not the "magic of elves" which was "unsuitable for
humans". Azrai invents a new form of magic to let these humans of his use,
and it isn't what we have in the players handbook because //that// is the
"magic of elves" - True Magic. Atar wields magic of Shadow and Death, and
becomes the first Sorcerer (actual word used) as opposed to Mage of Wizard
or Magician. I think this might mean something. I'm going to hit more on
this in another post however.

Azrai slowly undermines Vorynn and gains the Vos, all the while planting
the seed of hatred in the elves and we now have the basis of Diesmar. The
Vos begin chewing through everything the other Cerilians can must at the
same time as the elves who suddenly come boiling out of the woods to
slaughter humans everywhere. The Shadow War has just begun. The Cerilians
are driven to Mount Deismar (obviously named something different at this
time as Deismar is Deis Mar - God's Death) At Deismar the Cerilians are
trapped in the biggest strategic pincer ever desinged in the genre of
fantasy literature. An entire assembly of nations is caught between two
nations on one side and the entire might of the Adurian war machine on the
other.

Deismar ensues and the events that happen are recorded in the Atlas of
Cerilia. Unfortunately Dossiere's Atlas becomes once again one-sided and
focusses solely on the Cerilians after Deismar. The Royal Chaimberlain
says nothing of the rest of the world.

Here I insert my dissension again. I think that the people of Aduria all
have their fair share of blooded folk. The bloodlines went out according
the the strength of one's conviction with a deity, and the largest
gathering of evil folks was the Adurians. Hence, Azrai's tremendous powers
are siphoned off into the leaders of the Adurians who now retreat back.

So what happens in Aduria over the next 1500 years?

Aduria is a huge place, and I see it as having been dominated by the
priesthood before the War of Shadow, and that selfsame priesthood, now
without power of any kind (hrmm... poor templars) is not going to be very
willing to give up ANY of their hoarded power. As Azrai was a god of
knowledge and power, I think most of the priests began dabbling in the
black arts, becoming magicians and the like. The truly lucky ones, those
with bloodlines, now practice True Magic, or perhaps they have learned the
secrets of the Lost. In fact, perhaps some of Azrai's Lost survive to this
point and assume rulership. These men and women, powerful all, are perhaps
this lands variant of the Gorgon, just not quite so awesome, or perhaps
moreso... no way to know, really.

Over the next millenium and a half Aduria slides from the glorious Golden
Age and into an age of broken empires and decadence. The Adurians are the
top of the social ladder, with all the captured slaves and offspring of the
5 tribes being their lesser citizens. There is still a pristhood of Azrai,
but these deceivers are actually either Sorcerers (as per Atar) or are
Wizards and they masquerade as priests, using their powers to pretend at a
role they have no skill at. A peculiar thing now, without Azrai, the power
to magically heal in the lands of Aduria is lost. Are there any priests of
Kreisha and Bellinik here? doubtful, they were Cerilian heroes/villains,
lessers by the standards of the Adurians.

Aduria is now (IMO) a land of forgotten memories. Ruins of great wonders
that were once easy to make are now scattered across the lands. Those with
power rule, in more stark iron clad dominance that anywhere in Cerilia, and
the Haves are not very likely to give up to the Have Nots. Any form of
self government is going to be violently repressed. The land is a huge
continet divided into several empires and kingdoms, all with their little
"preists of Azrai" to guide them along.

IMC I have devised the following. The Priesthood is made up of women, the
Daughters of Azrai, very powerful Wizards and Sorceresses that guide their
Kings. The Kings/Emperors are all male, but are trained in the black arts
themselves. I have used the rules out of the PO: Spells and Magic and
devised a variant mage that can cast spells of limited schools while in
full plate armor and wielding a weapon. They can't stand up to a full
mage, but your average fighter in a one on one with a noble of this land is
going to be very hard pressed. Throw in a wide plethora of bloodlines
devoted to Azrai in the bunch and you have the makings of a huge playground
where evil abounds and life is cheap. Aduria is also so huge that if they
actually decided to work together they could very well crush all of
Cerilia.

I have thrown one more mix into my campgain. I decided that Azrai didn't
die. Now, in defense of self, I decided this before the Essence of Evil
series was announced. In fact, I fought rather vehemently in my early days
on the list with a few folks about whether or not Azrai was still alive
(Sepsis probably remembers those wonderful arguments that got postsed -
sorry) and I even got personal flame mail once or twice. I found a
reference in "On Hallowed Ground" that listed the Dead Gods, and in a
careful read of them, Azrai is NOT in the list of the Aebyrnis gods. In
fact it says that the other gods gave their lives to stop him, not to kill
him.

IMC Azrai is horribly wounded and recovering in the deep south, in a place
called the Womb of the World, the place where the gods were born. At the
end of the series of epic quests I have in mind Azrai will have gained
enough power to walk again on the planet and strike out immediately to lead
his armies across the world, in physical form! The new gods swore to never
again use their might as their progenitors did, and so cannot interfere.
Howerver, Azrai will be weak enough to be defeatable by a powerful mortal
once and for all time. Imagine the bloodtheft on that one!

[Daniel McSorley]

Wow! That was great! I'm now eagerly awaiting "another post" about the
Sorcerors. This goes in the "saved stuff" folder for sure!
Daniel McSorley
mcsorley.1@osu.edu
http://www.cis.ohio-state.edu/~mcsorley/
ICQ:5299865
AIM:DanMcS

[darkstar]

MANTA wrote:
>
> My thoughts precisely.Couldn´t stop reading.

Well my reply (rather large) is on its way.
Much the same sort of stuff, but slightly differnet in a few places.

- --
Ian Hoskins

e-Mail: hoss@box.net.au
Homepage: http://darkstar.cyberserv.com
ICQ: 2938300

[darkstar]

Tim Nutting wrote:
>
> I too have been thinking quite a bit about the pre Shadow War period of
> Aduria's history and what has become of those lands. I've been trying to
> cobble together an idea of what the religious states were like in this time
> and what the politics and peoples might have been like.

I am working on a history for Aduria too, as part of my now rather large
Adurian Expansion.
I will put in some bit in my reply here about this to compare them with
your great ideas.


> In drooling over the relics in the Book of Priestcraft I stumbled over the
> Viper's Eye. This is perhaps the single most cryptic and rather confusing
> item I've ever seen for BR. It opens with a description of Azrai before
> the War of Shadow and says that he was not allways the incarnation of
> terror and evil that he later became, and that he was a god of knowledge.
> The description paints a picture of a being of pure buty, but vain. I
> imagine that he revelled in knowledge as a means to gain power, and those
> that followed him sought those goals as opposed to Vorynn's path of
> peaceful magic and moonlight. I also imagine that the Adurians were
> Azrai's people, just as the Anuireans were Anduirias' and the Masetians
> were Masella's, etc.

In my histroy the Adurian were followers of Azari, and in fact still
are. I saw the artifact in the book of priestcraft and used that as the
whole basis for my history of Azari. So anyway here goes.

To start with there are 8 tribes that developed on Aduria.
The oldest of these tribes was the Ghan people who had an empire in the
jungles of the south in the distant past. The worshipped beast gods who
have long since pasted into memory. Following the fall of their empire
several other tribes developed. At first none of these worshipped the
gods, but rather followed tribal cults etc. Then the Neha, a tribe of
eastern Aduria developed the pantheon that is known today.
They have 9 gods in the pantheon.
Nestellia - Ancient Goddess of Life & Creation.
Aebrynis - Ancient God of Death & Rebirth.
Anduiras - God of nobility and war
Reynir - God of forests & streams.
Vorynn - God of magic
Brenna - Goddess of wealth and fortune
Masela - Goddess of the Sea
Basaia - Goddess of the Sun
Azari - God of pride and knowledge.

The Neha taught that the ancient gods had given birth to the world and
its people, and finally its gods. These ancient gods are still
worshipped, but only by the Neha in the modern day.
Their relgions spread across the continent to the other tribes with each
tribe eventually choosing one as their particular god. Azari, the last
and youngest of the gods had few followers among the people of Aduria at
the time, as the tribe prefered gods that effected their lives more,
such as the god of war, or the goddess of the sea, to follow Azari's
promise of knowledge. Over the centuries Azari grew resentful and sort
followers where ever he could.
His few priest soon became less that welcome and were eventualy driven
from the Andu lands where they had a few temples into the far south.
More centuries past and a war in the west caused a small new tribe to
spring up, comprised of the refugees of the Masela. They settled at the
mouth of a river and soon came to call themselves Adurian's after the
name of the continent. As they grew in power they expanded and sent out
expeditions to other lands, eventually to the south where they came in
contact with the few remaining priests of Azari. The priests convinced
the explorers to take them back with them. The Adurian were a different
people from the other tribes, a proud people who sought knowledge, and
the promises of Azari's priest were welcomed and soon Azari had become
the only god of the Adurians.
Over the next thousand years the small Adurian empire expanded
conquering vast areas of the continent driving out the other tribes, or
conquering them fully and making them part of the Adurian people.
Eventually this expansion covers the entire coninent, and causes the
exodous of the Five Tribes to Cerilia.

NOTE: This is really brief, the actually history I am working on is a
lot, lot large and covers about five thousand years or more.


> Jump ahead to Deismar and we find that Azrai has finally found those people
> who fled. This says one crucial thing, the gods of old were neither
> omniescient nor omnipotent. Also, I have never seen in any other D&D game
> where gods have physically manifested on the Prime Material. According to
> everything I know, this is not possible, and rather frowned upon by Planar
> powers. So we have a section that is completely outside the standard AD&D
> millieu and an opportunity unmatched. Either Aebynis doesn't follow the
> rules of the rest of the cosmos, or we just had an "artifact moment".

I use something similar in my campign where the gods only know what is
occuring around their priests, or worshippers. It means they don't know
everything, just that which effects their worshippers.
Deismaar was also the last time there was any actual physical
manisfesation as the new gods signed a pact to prevent it ever occuring
again.


> Now, at Deismar Azrai had pinned the Cerilians in a massive pincer, they
> were outnumbered and outmached so horribly that only the self-sacrifice of
> 5 Gods could save them. The Vos and the Elves could not have done that
> alone, so in my mind the Adurians were there, and in force. Also, assuming
> that a god's power is directly tied to the number and strength of his/her
> worshippers, it seems to me that Azrai's base of worship was absolutely
> HUGE. He had the power to confront 5 gods at once. If he might have
> dispatched 3 in mass combat that says something, but that it took all his
> bretheren to match and beat him....

I agree. The tribes that fled Aduria were the remanents of their
peoples, the few survivor's fleeing after a long, long war. In the
hisory I have created for Aduria the empire of Aduria at the time
dominated the entire southern continent, and could if necessary field
hundred of thousands of soldiers. Of course most of these were still
thousands of miles from Cerilia, but the entire northern Adurian army
was at Deismaar, many twisted by Azari's power. And even with all forces
of the Cerilia tribes, and the Elves and Dwarves Azari would have still
been victorious had not the other 6 six gods stepped in and sacrificed
themselves to stop them.
I was readying Greatheart the other day and that noval has some good
stuff on Diesmaar and how the Shadow World came to be, will still have
to see what is in the official shadow world product yet, but it is a
good explaination of what happened to the Adurian forces.
Anyway for my history the Adurian forces were destroyed at Deismaar,
almost all killed, with only a few beastmen and other nasties surviving.
Some may have survived but they were a long way from home with no way
back and were picked off by the Cerilians. The fact that the Adurian
forces were destroyed is important for my descriptions of modern Aduria.


> Lets backtrack a long ways now. Azrai has chased his bretheren out of
> Aduria and captured as many of the tribal kinsmen as he could. Obviously
> not everyone made it to Cerilia, and of those that didn't, not all of them
> could have died. The Adurians, as Azrai's folk, are the chosen and the
> favored on the continent of Aduria. Any of the five tribes left could
> perhaps have equal footing, but they would most likely be slave peoples.
> The Adurians were also of sufficient strenth to drive off ALL five tribes.
> This means they dominated the continent in sheer numbers. Azrai values
> knowledge (IMO) as a means to gain power, so the people of Aduria are well
> learned and technologically advanced. Perhaps the empires of Aduria were
> like unto the Age of Legends in Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time, in fact I
> can easily see them so, filled with all forms of wonderful magic and
> devices created by Azrai's priesthood. But also these lands were dominated
> by the priesthood or perhaps the noble caste. After all evil and vanity
> seek the betterment of self over others, and I can hardly see Azrai the
> Vain, the Beautiful, as caring much if a few thousand peasants got
> squished.

Amazing, very similar to what I am working on. In my history the Adurain
were the most advanced tribe on the continent (and still are) and were
dominated by the priesthood, at least until Deismaar. The conquered
races became slaves of the Adurian people and were used, and are still
used to do all the labour and work in Aduria. They had also dominated
the continent, but did not know that there were survivors left in
Cerilia, and it was not until Azari found out about this that their
armies were sent north in time to join in at Deismaar.


> So he makes the Viper's Eye for Atar of the Vos. Atar becomes the first of
> the Lost. Here is another piece to support that the gods of old were not
> all knowing/powerful. Azrai is able to hide his influence for Vorynn and
> sneak around on Cerilia. Not something an avatar is normally capable of.
> They fairly reek of divine essences and power, and should have been
> eminently visible. Azrai also had guts. Of all the old gods, Vorynn is
> his antithesis at this point. Knowledge for the betterment of others.
> Vorynn probably knew Azrai best of all.

I also have lost being ancient necromancers, and the only beings that
Azari passed on a portion of his power (ie a bloodline) in the five
hundred years before Deismaar. They became importal undead sorcerers and
a some remain until this day. Until Deismaar they were among the very
few of the favourites of the gods that could cast true magic.



Everything else in the message is differnt from my history so I will
write up what happened in Aduria according to me (very basic overview).

1. At Deismaar, or shortly after the forces sent by Aduria were mostly
destroyed. A few sruvived and either settled in Cerilia or found their
way back to Aduria over the years, but the main army was gone. Those
that survived I will deal with shortly.

2. Shortly after Deismaar the priest of Azari lost much of their power
as their gods was no longer answering their prayers. The then emperor
(not a priest) choose that time to throw off the influence of the
priesthood and elect a new noble council. The priest began a civil war
to destroy the emperor, which the emperor won.

3. During the civil war though much of the imperial influence was lost,
and several of the other races (Neha & Ghan) choose that moment to rebel
against their Adurian overlord retaking their lost lands. This is much
like the fall of the roman empire, although the results were sort of the
reverse of what happened in rome. These other tribes return to
worshipping the rest of the old gods (spells provided by new gods
instead).

4. The civil war and crisis over the Adurian armies lick their wound and
stay home. The loss of their northern armies cost them greatly and they
loss much of those lands. The priests are now provided with spells by
the new gods who descended from Azari, but still worship Azari. In the
past his influence was much more common, and physical manifestations of
his power commonplace. Now this does not occur, and Azari does not
answer the calls of his priest, leading them to believe that the other
gods have imprisioned Azari and that one day he will escape and once
again be there for them.

5. About 300 years after Deismaar the Adurian empire has rebuilt some of
its lost strength and send its army north to retake the lost lands, and
seek answers about what happend to Azari. This army encounters the
surivivors of the northern army from Deismaar, now twisted beastmen. The
two sides clash and a massive war follows. The beastmen are aided by an
ancient race of snakemen who have access to powerful spells. They drive
the Adurian army south before being driving back, at great cost. Much of
the northern plain, once grassland have been blasted by magic and are
now a growing desert.

6.Seeing little use in continuing to expand in that region the empire
builds several forts to guard against further attacks from the snakemen
and begin a series of wars with the Nehalim empire, which has now
recovered and is stronger that ever. These war continue on and off for
the next thousand years or so until the presenet day, neither side
gaining or lossing much. The empire does not make many gains in any
regions.

7. Present day, a new emporer comes to power, one who has the full might
of the church of Azari behind him, and set about reforming the
relationship with the church and appoiniting priest to positions of
power.

Anyway that is a quick overview, the finished product will be
consideribly larger and much more complex, but those are the main
points. I don't have many people with bloodlines in Aduria, certainly
there are a few, who have either travelled to Aduria from Cerilia, or
have descended from the survivors at Deismar. There are still some
powerful being though. The emperor of Aduria through an artifact that
holds some of Azari's power has a strong bloodline and some of the lost
remain, including one who rules a empire covering a great southern
desert.

Well thats it for now, back to work...

- --
Ian Hoskins

e-Mail: hoss@box.net.au
Homepage: http://darkstar.cyberserv.com
ICQ: 2938300

[Mark A Vandermeulen]

On Tue, 7 Apr 1998, Tim Nutting wrote:

> Jump ahead to Deismar and we find that Azrai has finally found those people
> who fled. This says one crucial thing, the gods of old were neither
> omniescient nor omnipotent. Also, I have never seen in any other D&D game
> where gods have physically manifested on the Prime Material. According to
> everything I know, this is not possible, and rather frowned upon by Planar
> powers. So we have a section that is completely outside the standard AD&D
> millieu and an opportunity unmatched. Either Aebynis doesn't follow the
> rules of the rest of the cosmos, or we just had an "artifact moment".

I suppose that the more of their "essence" the god's pour into their
"material forms" the more powerful they are. The gods knew they needed
more power to defeat Azrai, so they poured more of themselves into their
material forms, and Azrai countered by pouring more into his own, etc,
until "all" of the god's essences were localized. Perhaps this happened as
an accident, or perhaps the gods planned it that way, it being their only
real chance to defeat the God of Shadow.

> Now, at Deismar Azrai had pinned the Cerilians in a massive pincer, they
> were outnumbered and outmached so horribly that only the self-sacrifice of
> 5 Gods could save them. The Vos and the Elves could not have done that
> alone, so in my mind the Adurians were there, and in force. Also, assuming
> that a god's power is directly tied to the number and strength of his/her
> worshippers, it seems to me that Azrai's base of worship was absolutely
> HUGE. He had the power to confront 5 gods at once. If he might have
> dispatched 3 in mass combat that says something, but that it took all his
> bretheren to match and beat him....

I believe that Azrai gained lots of power by discovering the Shadow World
and figuring out how to turn it to his own purpose. So the amount of
followers could be much closer to similar that you portray here. However,
Azrai does appear to have more actual fighter-types to throw at the
opposing armies at Deismaar, but this may be more a function of a culture
where as many people as possible become fighters. (ie Vos and
proto-Adurians)

> So he makes the Viper's Eye for Atar of the Vos. Atar becomes the first of
> the Lost. Here is another piece to support that the gods of old were not
> all knowing/powerful. Azrai is able to hide his influence for Vorynn and
> sneak around on Cerilia. Not something an avatar is normally capable of.
> They fairly reek of divine essences and power, and should have been
> eminently visible. Azrai also had guts. Of all the old gods, Vorynn is
> his antithesis at this point. Knowledge for the betterment of others.
> Vorynn probably knew Azrai best of all.

Or he was using is knowledge of the Shadow World for this purpose: to move
around with out the other gods being aware of him.

> As a side note, I think Atar is something of a special case. He and the
> other Lost are unique in the AD&D millieu, and rather outside the rules.
> The Viper's Eye description talks of how Azrai lured Atar into working dark
> arts and magic, but not the "magic of elves" which was "unsuitable for
> humans". Azrai invents a new form of magic to let these humans of his use,
> and it isn't what we have in the players handbook because //that// is the
> "magic of elves" - True Magic. Atar wields magic of Shadow and Death, and
> becomes the first Sorcerer (actual word used) as opposed to Mage of Wizard
> or Magician. I think this might mean something. I'm going to hit more on
> this in another post however.

Not necessarily. It might just mean that they emphasized alteration and
necromacy, which the elves avoid. But it's an interesting concept, and I
hope you will go into in more.

I also like your Aduria and Azrai stuff. The Aduria stuff sounds a lot
like the stuff Darkstar is working on, and if you two pooled your ideas
you might be able to feed off each other's ideas and come out with more
cool stuff even faster. And the stuff you said about Azrai is almost
identical to my own beliefs.

Mark VanderMeulen
vander+@pitt.edu

[David Sean Brown]

>
> > In drooling over the relics in the Book of Priestcraft I stumbled over the
> > Viper's Eye. This is perhaps the single most cryptic and rather confusing
> > item I've ever seen for BR. It opens with a description of Azrai before
> > the War of Shadow and says that he was not allways the incarnation of
> > terror and evil that he later became, and that he was a god of knowledge.
> > The description paints a picture of a being of pure buty, but vain. I
> > imagine that he revelled in knowledge as a means to gain power, and those
> > that followed him sought those goals as opposed to Vorynn's path of
> > peaceful magic and moonlight. I also imagine that the Adurians were


This sort of reminds me oearly descriptions of f Torak in David Eddings
Books...

Sean

[Tim Nutting]

Thanks!

By the time I was finished writing it was incredibly stupid o'clock in the
morning. I'd thought out allot of it but never put it to "paper!"

Thanks again for the compliment!

Tim Nutting

[Tim Nutting]

> This sort of reminds me oearly descriptions of f Torak in David Eddings
> Books...
>
> Sean

I too noticed that as well. I won't deny that a fair portion of my early
Aduria concept comes from the Mallorian and the Belgariad. In my own mind
I see the ancient gods as having walked the land with their children,
either woefully unaware of the "wrongness" of full physical manifestation,
or just scoffed at it.

Another Belgariad similarity is the idea of the Imprisonment spell (8th
level wizard - its a 1st edition carryover) that traps its victim deep in
the surface of the earth, very similar to what Belgarath did to the
Apostate. (is that the right name?) My answer to what happend to the Lost
is just that, most were captured by an Imprisonment spell and exist in
stasis till this very day, awaiting someone foolish enough to release them
upon the world once more.

Good Gaming!

Tim Nutting

[Kyle Foster]

Actually alot of the Birthright world reminds a great deal of Eddings
works. In some ways the concept of true wizards mirrors the "will and
the way" doctrine as told by Bellgeath(sp). THe breakdown of races is
also a little Eddings like in that each race seems to lend itself to
certian classes, ( but that's true of most worlds I guess).

Excellent work by both parties on this concept of Azari and Diesmer, it
really makes me sad that I never thought of some of those things myself.

Kyle
- --
"What's so amazing about really deep thoughts?" - Tori Amos, "Silent
All These Years"

[Kyle Foster]

I like the thought of the lost being trapped. I combined that with one
of the adventures in LOHK (the one with the dread) to provide the grand
backdrop for my game. Thought to be honest what inpired me to the idea
was playing Myth of the Fallen Lords and gettin my head handed to me by
the Fallen Lords. I thought it would make a cool plot for Birthright
and that it fit well with the concept of the lost.

Though related to this subject doesn't CoS say that one of the lost is
running around out there free already? And does anyone else think that
the Magian could be old Atar himself? No one really knows where he came
from or how he got hs bloodline, and after reading the stuff in the book
of Priestcraft that is how my thinking went.

Kyle
- --
"What's so amazing about really deep thoughts?" - Tori Amos, "Silent
All These Years"

[David Sean Brown]

> Another Belgariad similarity is the idea of the Imprisonment spell (8th
> level wizard - its a 1st edition carryover) that traps its victim deep in
> the surface of the earth, very similar to what Belgarath did to the
> Apostate. (is that the right name?)

Zedar the Apostate you got it :)

My answer to what happend to the Lost
> is just that, most were captured by an Imprisonment spell and exist in
> stasis till this very day, awaiting someone foolish enough to release them
> upon the world once more.

Hey, I like this...gives a good reason why some (all? :) of them can /have
come back ...I may have to use this *grin* *shameless plaigerism*

Sean

[Mark A Vandermeulen]

On Wed, 8 Apr 1998, Kyle Foster wrote:

> Though related to this subject doesn't CoS say that one of the lost is
> running around out there free already? And does anyone else think that
> the Magian could be old Atar himself? No one really knows where he came
> from or how he got hs bloodline, and after reading the stuff in the book
> of Priestcraft that is how my thinking went.

Or the Raven. He's supposedly a spirit of some kind out of the Shadow
World that took over the body of the former regent then said regent was
visiting the Shadow World.

Mark VanderMeulen
vander+@pitt.edu

[MANTA]

My thoughts precisely.Couldn´t stop reading.
MANTA

- ----------
> From: Daniel McSorley
> To: birthright@MPGN.COM
> Subject: Re: [BIRTHRIGHT] - Concept of Diesmer and the Blooded
> Date: terça-feira, 7 de abril de 1998 15:45
>
>
> Wow! That was great! I'm now eagerly awaiting "another post" about
the
> Sorcerors. This goes in the "saved stuff" folder for sure!
> Daniel McSorley
> mcsorley.1@osu.edu
> http://www.cis.ohio-state.edu/~mcsorley/
> ICQ:5299865
> AIM:DanMcS
>
>> To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the
line
> 'unsubscribe birthright' as the body of the message.

[Tim Nutting]

Don't know about the Magian, but the Lost in CoS is El-Seighul, lord of the
Ghouls. He's not really free.... ummm..... hehehe.... just writing that
clicked an idea in my head. Check out my post on Sorcerers today!
Everyone let me know what you think please!

Anyway... El-Seighul is not really "free". He is the "Regent" of the Black
Spear Tribes (MKh; W19; unknown bloodline; LE) and his limitations are
described on page 31. This is one of those things that should NOT be
revealed to players and a good reason to hand out the "limited"
descriptions as proposed by others on the list. (sorry don't remember who)

Later all

Tim Nutting

[Gary V. Foss]

Mark A Vandermeulen wrote:

> On Wed, 8 Apr 1998, Kyle Foster wrote:
>
> > Though related to this subject doesn't CoS say that one of the lost is
> > running around out there free already? And does anyone else think that
> > the Magian could be old Atar himself? No one really knows where he came
> > from or how he got hs bloodline, and after reading the stuff in the book
> > of Priestcraft that is how my thinking went.
>
> Or the Raven. He's supposedly a spirit of some kind out of the Shadow
> World that took over the body of the former regent then said regent was
> visiting the Shadow World.

Here's a spooky idea that might scare the bejeebies out of players in a campaign
that I might just use in my own.... What if the spirit that took over the body of
Lenski is the undead ghost of Azrai? You know, dead but undead the way Orcus came
back in Dead Gods as a weakened but still monsterous creature.

What do you guys think?

- -Gary

[Kyle Foster]

You know I just thought of something about the Raven. He does call
himself the "Son of Azari" couldn't Atar claim that title as his first
human follower. It would also explain the Ravens magic. Drats, now
I've got to figure out a new background for the Magian

Kyle
- --
"What's so amazing about really deep thoughts?" - Tori Amos, "Silent
All These Years"

[Mark A Vandermeulen]

On Wed, 8 Apr 1998, Gary V. Foss wrote:

> Here's a spooky idea that might scare the bejeebies out of players in a campaign
> that I might just use in my own.... What if the spirit that took over the body of
> Lenski is the undead ghost of Azrai? You know, dead but undead the way Orcus came
> back in Dead Gods as a weakened but still monsterous creature.

My personal cosmology is that Azrai is dead. But in the last split second
before his death he realized the extent to which the other god were
willing to go to defeat him, and he managed to "throw" a small piece of
his "soul" into the Shadow World--which became the Cold Rider. The Cold
Rider has subsequently discovered that, if he can gather up the disparate
parts of his body, he can raise himself up as an UNDEAD god. So he's in
search of his body and sufficient magic to raise himself up again.

I don't know anything about Orcus and all that, but the idea sounds at
least vaguely similar.

Mark VanderMeulen
vander+@pitt.edu