Treasure suggestions in a lower-magic campaign

[camelotcrusade]

Hi everyone,

I'm starting a new campaign this weekend in Alamie, and we're going to go low-magic. It's not domain play, just an adventure setting.

Anyway, I was hoping you had some suggestions for me about awarding treasure in a low-magic campaign. I'm used to the forgotten realms (monsters are piñatas that explode into bags of gold and +1 items) or Ravenloft (treasure? what treasure? not even regular treasure!) but not something in between.

What kind of things might you award that are still rewards? I'm out of my element here, but I don't want to blow it by giving too much magic away early on. I will probably give out potions now and then, and maybe a magical weapon after a quest or as some sort of major reward. I could give more money, but then, what would you do with it?

Also, any suggestions on handling craft items besides just disallowing those feats is appreciated. Finally, I'm sure you've already talked about this, but you guys are full of fresh ideas, so I appreciate those as well as links from the sages of the board.

[irdeggman]

Suggestions invovling the market value:

Increase the market value of magic items -
Increase by 25-30% (the approx increase from 2nd ed)
Double or triple the cost (from Complete Warrior for low magic settings)

I'd keep the feats but by applying the above the amount of items created becomes less. I would also make an exception for scrolls and potions (keep them at normal costs).

When the market value is changed this increases the monetary costs for creating as well as the exp cost for creating items.

[RaspK_FOG]

If you are willing to make a little addition to your game, I would suggest that you add masterpiece items to your setting: masterpiece weapons grant a +2 enhancement bonus on attack rolls, masterpiece suits of armour and shields have their armour check penalties reduced by 2. Masterpiece weapons cost an additional 600 gp, while masterpiece suits of armour and shields cost an additional 300 gp. These values are similar to values applied on masterwork items, but replace them in a sense. The Craft check DC to "make the masterpiece component" (<_< Foolish mechanic if you ask me... The same applies on master work components for my part&#33;) is 25.

[Osprey]

I use te idea that dwarves in the BRCS have, similar to what RaspK mentioned. Superior Masterwork items, though mine are only +1 mundane enhancement bonus to attack and damage for weapons, armor is -2 armor check, +1 max Dex bonus to AC, and -5% spell failure.

For Oriental Adventures I had a 3rd grade, Legendary Masterwork, which I allowed for katanas only (granting a +2 natural enhancement bonus), but the idea can easily be imported to Birthright. However, I&#39;d put the Craft DC at 30+ for items like this...

Remember, low magic doesn&#39;t have to mean low-level craftsmen. Having some really amazing pieces of craftsmanship can make for a flavor-rich game that doesn&#39;t have to have magical gizmos pouring out your ears.

Osprey

[soudhadies]

Don&#39;t forget that rewards can be intangible as well as tangible. Favors, information, and the building of relationships can all be good rewards for good player performance. They could also give the players in game effects as well.

For example, a player might do a good turn for someone who turns out to be an economic/organizational/military/etc genius. This individual is so grateful that they offer to help the player out on one occassion, possibly giving them a bonus a Build Trade Routes action, reducing the cost of building a castle, or giving the benefit of a military feat during a climactic battle. Even better, if the Player plays his cards right and cultivates a relationship with this individual he might be persuaded to come aboard full time as a (paid) exceptional advisor. See the book of regency for information on advisors.

Information is also a good reward. It can be something as simple as trite as learning the possible location of the map to some fabulous magical treasure (thus making the final acquisition of said treasure all the more special because it was dragged out over several adventures), to finding out what signals are used by the Ghoerean army in battle (of course Ghoere would have to change them later, but give the PCs an advantage in a battle or two).

Relationships are very important in BR because the game is so political. PCs development of hirelings and random NPCs into trusted lieutenants, advisors, heirs and the like can be very rewarding to players, and make the game as a whole more enjoyable.

Finally, consider giving regency points. The Book of Regency gives an pseudo-example (not neccessarily applicable to 3E) with the King Errant kit. But you should consider rewarding over the top heroics with a 1-4 regency points for the respect and awe that they earn the regent among his subjects ("The Baron fought off what?&#33; In his robe and slippers?&#33; With one hand tied behind his back?&#33; WOW&#33;").

[RaspK_FOG]

Sorry for that: erroneous "post reply"... Can it be deleted?

[RaspK_FOG]

Originally posted by "Osprey"+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE ("Osprey")</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>I use te idea that dwarves in the BRCS have, similar to what RaspK mentioned. Superior Masterwork items, though mine are only +1 mundane enhancement bonus to attack and damage for weapons, armor is -2 armor check, +1 max Dex bonus to AC, and -5% spell failure.[/b]
I really liked that "only" part... :P


Originally posted by "Osprey"+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE ("Osprey")</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>For Oriental Adventures I had a 3rd grade, Legendary Masterwork, which I allowed for katanas only (granting a +2 natural enhancement bonus), but the idea can easily be imported to Birthright. However, I&#39;d put the Craft DC at 30+ for items like this...[/b]
Actually, I generally like the idea of unique craftsmanship potential. Standard rules do not allow for such weapons, but adding serrated and laminated weapons to your game can be benficial; the same applies to bodkin arrows, etc.
Serrated slashing or piercing weapons have their critical threat range increased by 1 after all other adjustments have been made; so, a serrated greatsword would have a critical of "18-20/×3", while a serrated keen greataxe would have a critical of "18-20/×4". Costs 600 gp. Component Craft check DC: 20.

Laminated steel slashing or piercing weapons have their critical damage multiplier increased by 1, deal 1 additional point of damage, and have their hardness increased by 5. Thus, a laminated steel longsword has a critical of "19-20/×3" and a damage rating of "1d8+1 Slashing", while a laminated steel scythe has a critical of "×5" and a damage rating of "2d4+1 Slashing & Piercing". Costs 900 gp. Component Craft check DC: 25.

Serrated and laminated steel increase the cost of items that have additional such components dramatically: for each such component, including a masterwork or masterpiece component, add their costs and multiply that by their number. For example, a serrated, laminated steel, masterpiece longsword would cost:
(600 + 900 + 600 + 15) × 3 gp = 2.115 × 3 gp = 6.345 gp.

Intricate weapons or suits of armour or shields cost an additional 1.000 gp for having an artistic value.

Jeweled weapons or suits of armour or shields cost an additional amount of gp according to the cost of the gems that are embeded on them.

Bodkin arrows allow for an effectively lower AC; count the target&#39;s armour, shield, and natural armour bonuses to AC as if lower by 1, or 2 for master work items, when shot at with bodkin arrows.

Costs should be considered accordingly, but not get lower than the ones appropriate for masterwork items (which they all are); a good test would be to judge how effective an item is going to be and compare it to magic items that do the same thing...


<!--QuoteBegin-"Osprey"@
Remember, low magic doesn&#39;t have to mean low-level craftsmen. Having some really amazing pieces of craftsmanship can make for a flavor-rich game that doesn&#39;t have to have magical gizmos pouring out your ears.[/quote]
Couldn&#39;t put it better...


Really good ideas, Bearcat&#33; Pretty sweet examples.

<!--QuoteBegin-"Bearcat"
Finally, consider giving regency points. The Book of Regency gives an pseudo-example (not neccessarily applicable to 3E) with the King Errant kit. But you should consider rewarding over the top heroics with a 1-4 regency points for the respect and awe that they earn the regent among his subjects ("The Baron fought off what?&#33; In his robe and slippers?&#33; With one hand tied behind his back?&#33; WOW&#33;").[/quote]
Now, that last one cracked me up&#33; :lol:

I think I will put my Weapon Master prestige class up here soon as an idea of what use mundane treasure such as the one above can be. ;)

[destowe]

Even items made of special materials are valuable to low level creatures.


Consider a silvered weapon, or even a masterwork silvered weapon. Those come in handy if rumors of werecreatures from out of the 5 Peaks a floating around. Or cold iron if the Shadow creatures are lurking about.


Old mithril chain shirts or chainmail. Maybe a little history to the item as it was taken from raiders that were travelling to join the Manslayer&#39;s band. Or a gift to a human ranger for acts of generosity to the Sidhe.

Weapons that are not locally made. If one of the players is an archer, finding a mighty Khinasi composite longbow would put the local archers to shame.

[A_dark]

You can also give them keys to treasures. Just as the map was suggested, they could find a ring which unlocks the door to a cavern, inside which the treasure lies.

Or you could have them find a signet ring of some lord or another, which would help persuade pesky guards that they are good people and should be allowed to enter the palace.

[the Falcon]

Originally posted by camelotcrusade@Jun 11 2004, 03:33 PM
Hi everyone,

I&#39;m starting a new campaign this weekend in Alamie, and we&#39;re going to go low-magic. It&#39;s not domain play, just an adventure setting.

Anyway, I was hoping you had some suggestions for me about awarding treasure in a low-magic campaign. I&#39;m used to the forgotten realms (monsters are piñatas that explode into bags of gold and +1 items) or Ravenloft (treasure? what treasure? not even regular treasure&#33;) but not something in between.

What kind of things might you award that are still rewards? I&#39;m out of my element here, but I don&#39;t want to blow it by giving too much magic away early on. I will probably give out potions now and then, and maybe a magical weapon after a quest or as some sort of major reward. I could give more money, but then, what would you do with it?

Also, any suggestions on handling craft items besides just disallowing those feats is appreciated. Finally, I&#39;m sure you&#39;ve already talked about this, but you guys are full of fresh ideas, so I appreciate those as well as links from the sages of the board.
I use Action Points from Unearthed Arcana. Every time a character attains a new level of experience (including 1st level), she gets a number of APs equal to 5 plus half her level (rounded down). Also, I reward APs as part of bonus rewards for good roleplaying.
An AP is worth 100 gp per level, so this really cuts down on the total amount of treasure I have to hand out to keep the PCs on par with their character level.
I seriously recommend this system to everyone, especially if you&#39;re running a Br campaign.

[camelotcrusade]

Thanks for your wonderful replies, everyone.

I really like all of your ideas, and I already pulled the "superior masterwork" item out of my hat.

We&#39;re just using Cerilia as a setting for this adventure, so I won&#39;t be awarding things usable in domain-level play, though I have another campaign going that is domain-level, and I will certainly consider this idea&#33;

Can anyone recommend a good list of alternate materials that doesn&#39;t seem too fantastic? IIRC Magic of Faerun has a few, but I can&#39;t remember if they would be goofy for BR or fit right in. I&#39;ll check it.

Keys, maps... heh, especially like that idea. Base cost increase for magical items... I&#39;m going to try that out, too.

I have one other question for you guys, too. What do your PCs spend their money on in low-magic campaigns, if they aren&#39;t using it to craft or buy magical items very much? I&#39;m not too keen on hirelings (we have a few RPCs come and go, but that&#39;s about it) but I&#39;m just wondering. Of course if I keep their earnings low it doesn&#39;t matter as much.

Thanks again for all your input, the people on this board are so smart... :)

[the Falcon]

Originally posted by camelotcrusade+Jun 14 2004, 02:23 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (camelotcrusade &#064; Jun 14 2004, 02:23 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Thanks for your wonderful replies, everyone.[/b]You&#39;re welcome. ^_^


Originally posted by camelotcrusade@Jun 14 2004, 02:23 PM
We&#39;re just using Cerilia as a setting for this adventure, so I won&#39;t be awarding things usable in domain-level play, though I have another campaign going that is domain-level, and I will certainly consider this idea&#33;Which idea are you refering to, exactly?


Originally posted by camelotcrusade@Jun 14 2004, 02:23 PM
I have one other question for you guys, too. What do your PCs spend their money on in low-magic campaigns, if they aren&#39;t using it to craft or buy magical items very much? I&#39;m not too keen on hirelings (we have a few RPCs come and go, but that&#39;s about it) but I&#39;m just wondering. Of course if I keep their earnings low it doesn&#39;t matter as much.I wouldn&#39;t know, really. My players have the same problem; they don&#39;t quite know what to spend their character&#39;s cash on. Unfortunately, I can&#39;t think of anything either.
Does anyone have any good suggestions? We also do not play at the realm level; just at the adventure level, for now.

<!--QuoteBegin-camelotcrusade@Jun 14 2004, 02:23 PM
Thanks again for all your input, the people on this board are so smart... :)[/quote]Flattery will get you everywhere. ;)

[A_dark]

I suppose that repairing a masterwork item in a blacksmith would be quite expensive?

[Osprey]

Money is power, so long as people agree upon the value of your wealth.

You, the DM, shouldn&#39;t have to be turning cartwheels to help players figure out how to spend their money. Players should run their characters asking that very question: "Now that I seem to be rather well-off after some rather lucrative adventuring, what do I do with it all?"

What to do with one&#39;s wealth is as valid a question in a medieval world as it is ttoday. And a really good roleplaying theme, if you ask me. Lots of juicy moral and ethical dilemmas in there (potentially), and that aside, lots of possibilities.

Wealth gives options. Didn&#39;t you always want a nice house to live in? Heck, maybe a small manor and manse in the country? Ah, but surely others will hear of the wealthy adventurers moving out here, and surely they must stash all their loot there...

Make sure you know where your PC&#39;s stash their loot. People with lots of money have big targets on their heads, especially "new money."

In general, great wealth means a chance to affect society. While you don&#39;t have to play BR on a domain level, I wonder how you can entirely ignore the domain level when it&#39;s sitting right there, just asking to be involved...

Higher-level PC&#39;s with lots of money are unavoidably going to become people of power and consequence. The more their fame and wealth grow, the more their actions will ripple through the fabric of society and have broader consequences - whether they wish it or not. Good-aligned characters should then feel a degree of responsibility to be careful with that wealth and power. Evil ones might see the opportunity to start building their own little kingdom, or trade empire, or just have a really paranoid, trap-ridden hideout for their goods. ( You want &#39;em to blow money, just have them start detailing the cost of a few sophisticated traps and structures to protect their treasure&#33; :)

Also: don&#39;t forget nobles looking for loans (at interest, probably) or traders/ merchants looking for investors. Might be interesting to have the characters get talked into throwing their money into a risky but potentially &#39;big gain&#39; speculative venture. And if the goods don&#39;t get there (or back), the PC&#39;s might have an adventure tracking down where their money went. Which could mean a crooked merchant who took the money and ran, an earnest trader who fell afoul of a hostile reception or was waylaid...what if it was the return voyage, laden with a wealth of foreign cargo, was pirated or redirected (perhaps by a mind-influencing villain???).

&#39;What to do with the money&#39; has a wealth of story potential.

Osprey

[Beruin]

The d20 campaign setting Midnight offers herbal concoctions, i.e. drugs as another possible treasure for low-magic campaigns. In essence, these function like potions, but are non-magical and difficult to prepare. Generally, they also have side-effects. For instance, a herbal brew might make the user more aware of his surroundings (+2 to Spot and listen), but might make it difficult for him to concentrate (-2 to Concentration checks and will saves). Things like this could logically be found in the hands of orog or goblin shamans, for example and constitute a part of the treasure the PCs might find.



BtW, Midnight also uses a system similar to blood abilities called Heroic Paths that might be worth checking out.



With regard to spending gold, there are numerous possibilities, but these largely depend on the kind of game you and your players like to have.

A few examples:

Buy a tavern or Inn. That`s what every character in the Forgotten Realms seems to do with his money, judging from the number of taverns managed by former adventurerers. So next time, you head to a bar on a Friday night, be nice to the barkeep - you might be talking to a 10th lvl Barbarian.

This option would give the PCs a base of operations, but it could also tie them to one area, which might not be what you want.



Aside from hirelings, you could also use sages or seers to provide valuable clues for a reasonable fee.



Buy into a merchant venture. In a game I ran several years ago the PCs met a captain and ship owner down on his luck. They helped him and purchased several shares of his ship. This drained nearly all their monetary resources, but in return they would receive their share of the gains every season or so. They could draw upon this money in several larger cities along the regular route of the ship. In Alamie this could be a river trader or an overland caravan master. This option can also provide a springboard for future adventures (e.g. a caravan is missing due to bandits and the PCs investment is endangered).

[camelotcrusade]

Okay&#33; Filling up with ideas now...

Falcon, I was referring to awarding regency points, sorry for not clarifying.

I especially like the suggestion about paying for a seer or sage, as we like to keep things rather open-ended in my campaigns, and having a place to go when the pace is slow can be just the thing... in moderation of course.

Make sure I know where the PCs keep their money... heheh... if I were your PC, I&#39;d be afraid of you. Thanks for this idea&#33; We never really bothered with that sort of thing before, just going with the "invisible pack mule" model. I&#39;ll have to get on that pronto. I need to print this thread and stick it in my binder so I don&#39;t forget this stuff...

I have to wonder what it must be like to play a game with you people as DMs. Still, I don&#39;t want to come across as completely helpless... I have my own ideas on these topics, but I&#39;ve been coming here long enough to know yours are too good not to be heard. :) My forte is interesting combat and RPing gods and avatars (in FR, anyway...).

[RaspK_FOG]

OK, then, two things: Especially f you have arcane spellcasters in your group, or bards, or anything else that might have the potential of ganging up (divine spellcasters being my favourite), have them sign-up in any such group, from a church, to a guild, maybe even a bardic college&#33; They offer a lot of potential for money paying, roleplaying, and they do work&#33;
Secondly, henchmen are good investments, especially if you have the Leadership feat; if you don&#39;t have it, however, you may use the values presented in the Arms and Equipment Guide and have them offer pay to a sage, parchmenter, or whatever&#33;

[Osprey]

Make sure I know where the PCs keep their money... heheh... if I were your PC, I&#39;d be afraid of you.

Heh heh, yeah, I keep &#39;em on their toes. Never everything at once, but there&#39;s always one or a few things tweakin their rythms. :) Paranoia is an excellent training tool for quality regents. ;)

There&#39;s a halfling arcane trickster PC, Alec, in my current party who bought himself a small row home in the Imperial City. We spent about 2-3 hours designing traps and security measures for the place. All so he could have a safehouse and safe place to stash his goods. Of course, being a professional burglar, he has good reason to be paranoid...but let&#39;s just say "layered defenses" took on a whole new meaning.

The best one was a needle trap on the front door with potent paralytic poison and an audible Alarm spell. The would-be burglar would get frozen in the act while the city watch came running to the scene&#33; Now that was a good little combo - and one of the only non-lethal traps in the place. The inner doors, and secret tunnel to the sewers, were much, much more viscious.

While this is custom-tailored for the PC, you can do similar stuff with a party&#39;s HQ, and it can be a lot of fun to sit down and try to imagine precautions or protections against any imaginable threat. Paranoid brainstorming, refreshing I tell you&#33; Ha hah&#33; :lol:

[RaspK_FOG]

Additions and corrections posted above; go check them out.

[Magian]

When I want to make a low magic campaign I simply divide the rewards for characters according to how low I want it. For example I divide the exp. reward chart by 10 allowing for less experience rewards for encounters. In the same right I reduce all treasures by this amount, thus limiting excess money and items. This especially works for using Forgotten Realm adventures in a BR campaign because it would take a +5 to +14 magical item to equal a +1 item with this system. Not only is this simple to use but treasure and experience is more appreciated making high level characters something of an accomplishment instead of a few easy adventures. Also I believe this system does simplify a lot of the problems of economics and excess of spending for the characters. If not, then you can always increase the cost of things. This is best done with magic in my opinion, because it is rare you can easily justify increased costs from the book costs.

[Osprey]

While I don&#39;t use a low-powered system in general, a lot of my PCs&#39; big XP awards come through high-level domain achievements.

My adventures focus more on a few major encounters (often very deadly ones) rather than lots of little ones. I find it a waste of my and my players&#39; time to do the "10 encounters at CR x is enough to level up the group of 4 adventurers."

Taking the real time to play out 10-20 encounters for a single adventure is just way too boring for my tastes. That&#39;s pure hack and slash. I&#39;m much more a fan of focusing ona few major encounters that are worth a detailed play-through, and as such giving the normal XP awards has NEVER seemed to generous for the significant accomplishment of beating a really tough encounter.

Where the xp awards pile up to fast, by the book, is doing the 10-20 encounters per adventure, wherein the PC&#39;s are rarely all that threatened, but the smaller xp awards just keep accumulating until by the end the DM is like, "Wow, that&#39;s 18,000 xp apiece. Gee, maybe these xp awards are too big..."

If xo awards are broken down and handed out once per game session or at the end of major encounters, they don&#39;t seem so high anymore.

[Magian]

It would only be a hack and slash style of play if the game was focused on characters gaining levels at a normal game rate. It only becomes boring if the character leveling becomes the focus of the players.

Yes I agree with your assessment that if someone wanted to maintain the pace of leveling up it would just add to the encounter sessions. But isn&#39;t it obvious this system is setup in a way to not maintain this rapid pace?

Maybe it is a cardinal sin to go against the idea that characters my not level up during an adventure or several times in one adventure as the book setup allows. Character development needn&#39;t always be in character aquisitions of levels and new abilities.

If a DM uses the book system for awards and the pace of character leveling, then it calls into question the justification for the levels of character like the Gorgon, Rhoubhe, and such that have been around for centuries. If in one lifetime or less or even a few published adventures a character can achieve epic level, then it seems to me that the said characters of near immortal status should have much higher levels than they do. Therefore I find that there is a problem with a award system for a Birthright game.

The adventure game of D&D is not very compatible to a setting like Birthright in my opinion. On the other hand it does seem to work well with Forgotten Realms where the inn keeper is a retired epic character and his wife is a former archmage and the patrons are all former heroes of yester year. This system does not increase the encounters for a campaign, rather it lowers the amount of reward for them. Thus levels of a character are not cheap to come by. It turns into months and years before they see a new level rather than one adventure.

I understand the big problem with this is a change of pace for players and not all groups want to use it. That is fine I don&#39;t blame them, it may not be their style of play. But I do not think it fair to jump to a conclusion that it is "pure hack and slash" thereby it being a focus on game mechanics. Rather it provides for less of a focus on character level for ability and makes adventures not worth as much or rewarding weighed against their risks. Nor is it purely low-powered, because I will run characters who achieve epic levels to continue and do what they want rather than retire them like most campaigns. In fact my campaign takes epic to another level than others on the power scale. It is just a slower paced game system to use.

[Osprey]

I understand the big problem with this is a change of pace for players and not all groups want to use it. That is fine I don&#39;t blame them, it may not be their style of play. But I do not think it fair to jump to a conclusion that it is "pure hack and slash" thereby it being a focus on game mechanics.

I believe I was referring to the DMG&#39;s standard system of XP awards and what they&#39;re based on when discussing the 20 encounters per adventure thing. My complaint is more about that than your system, which I consider simply another DM&#39;s preference for game pace. To each his own, good man, to each his own.

The main problem I have with such a slow pace of advancement is more one of "How much real time do you have to run your campaign? How far, in that time, would you like your characters to advance?"

See, I love a game that starts low and progresses through to epic levels. And has an epic storyline and destiny for the PC&#39;s tied in. What can I say, I&#39;m a Tolkienite at heart I guess.

However, in all my 20 or so years of DM/GMing, I&#39;ve never run a continuous campaign that has lasted more than 2 years of real time. People move, change jobs and schedules, or simply shift priorities...I have yet to see a game (though I&#39;m sure they&#39;re out there) that meets regularly (weekely at least) for very many years consecutively. And that&#39;s what would be necessary to start at low levels and run through to epic levels with dramatically slowed XP progression. If you and you&#39;re ultra-dedicated players have the time and commitment for such a venture, well - more power to you, you&#39;re the lucky (or crazy?) few. ;)

Me, I take what I can get, and if that amounts to a regular commitment from a group for several years runnning (my current BR game has met weekly for most of a year and a half now, and the first PC just hit 21st level; and this without slowed XP awards AND with fairly generous domain-level XP awards). In-game, it&#39;s been about 8 years (started in 551, it&#39;s now the start of 559).

Still rather fast in terms of realism and believability, and I definitely take your point about using the Gorgon and Rhuobhe anf the elves in general as references. However, consider how difficult it would become to find a high enough CR to earn XP as a 30th level character in the BR world...friggin tough, I&#39;d say. Damn near impossible. Yet there&#39;s the Gorgon, who&#39;s made it to what? 35th level or so? That IS impressive in my book, even at full awards using the CR system. Because honestly, what really IS challenging to the Gorgon anymore? He&#39;s probably been constructing his own challenges for many centuries now, just to keep himself entertained. :P

Also, D&D doesn&#39;t much deal with the issue of stagnation and loss of XP from such, but I bet if there were more mechanics for immortals this would be a very real issue for them. Do you really think someone could live for thousands of years and somehow just keep improving without losing a good deal of their earlier learning and training? These are the things you just forget after five or more centuries of neglect - while some of it becomes ingrained and instinctual, a lot would also be too specialized or unused in most of a character&#39;s life, and likely slip away...

The fact that the Gorgon IS so high a level to me represents that he is unusually dedicated and relentless in his pursuit of self-empowerment. It&#39;s the only way 30+ levels can be justified in the CR system, as I see it. What do you think?

Osprey

[Magian]

Atrophy is something that is left out of the D&D game rules and this is a problem that I also have considered. I am unsure of how it would be affected by the various creatures in the BR world. That is to say, would elves suffer from it or the blooded and what of other mystical and magical creatures not of mere natural origins like humans. If we were to follow up on this further I suggest another thread so as not to further detract from this one.

You have a point about the "standard" CR system and the high level characters gaining new levels in the setting of Cerilia. Using the settng and the rules alone would not produce much for such characters aside from wiping eachother out. This begs the question, and then what? With self preservation on the minds of these individuals it seems highly unlikely for any such thing to occur, thus remains the problem.

In a case like this I would appeal to not using only combat encounters for the CR system if one wants these types of characters to progress in levels. However even if one of these characters devised a plot that meets a sufficient CR to merit decent exp awards, then most likely the problem of plucking the tree dry again occurs. The grandness of such a scheme would likely change much of the setting and Cerilia is not so grand of size and scope.

Yet if we consider the scale of influece of the Gorgon wouldn&#39;t slight increases alone merit some exp awards in the face of maintaining what he already now has? Isn&#39;t that justifyably challenge enough? Not merely taking the single action of success but the entire scope of his efforts to justify it?