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Aleksei Andrievski
11-30-1997, 12:00 AM
On Wed, 1 Apr 1998, KirbyRanma wrote:

> Hello,
>
> I was just looking over a blood ability chart and I noticed that Azrai's
> line does NOT have Divine Wrath, yet in THE IRON THRONE, the Gorgon *did* have
> that ability. Does this mean that when one switches to Azrai's line, they get
>
Hello,

Don't let the novel confuse you. Simon Hawke is not know for his strict
adherence to game rules and 'official' gameworld information. You should
have seen his Dark Sun novels *shudder*. Anyway, if the rules say that
Azrai's line doesn't have Divine Wrath, then it doesn't, and the thing in
the novel was a mistake.

******************************************
Aleksei Andrievski
k24023@kyyppari.hkkk.fi
aka Solmyr, the Archmage of the Azure Star
Visit the Archmage's Tower at
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Fortress/2198/index.html

KirbyRanma
04-01-1998, 05:18 AM
Hello,

I was just looking over a blood ability chart and I noticed that Azrai's
line does NOT have Divine Wrath, yet in THE IRON THRONE, the Gorgon *did* have
that ability. Does this mean that when one switches to Azrai's line, they get
their old blood abilities AND anything they get new with Azrai's? This seems
to be the case, and if so does the common citizen know of this? I'm thinking
they would, but would like the DM's to answer this for me. Thanks for your
time.

Take care,
KirbyRanma

James Ruhland
04-01-1998, 06:04 AM
>
> I was just looking over a blood ability chart and I noticed that
Azrai's
> line does NOT have Divine Wrath, yet in THE IRON THRONE, the Gorgon *did*
have
> that ability.
>
I think you may have been mislead by the author. The Gorgon doesn't have
Divine Wrath. He's just very mean.

Daniel McSorley
04-01-1998, 06:14 AM
> I was just looking over a blood ability chart and I noticed that
Azrai's
>line does NOT have Divine Wrath, yet in THE IRON THRONE, the Gorgon *did*
have
>that ability. Does this mean that when one switches to Azrai's line, they
get
>their old blood abilities AND anything they get new with Azrai's? This
seems
>to be the case, and if so does the common citizen know of this? I'm
thinking
>they would, but would like the DM's to answer this for me. Thanks for your
>time.
>
>Take care,
>KirbyRanma
No, and, no. :)
Specifically, I don't think the Gorgon had Divine Wrath. (I just read it
again this weekend, looking for whether they recovered Michael's body. I've
read it a dozen times, and I _still_ love that book.) It merely said that,
when Michael unleashed his, the Gorgon was still his equal or better. No, I
don't think you should keep old blood abilities, but that's just my opinion.
Besides, since when can you change derivations?
Daniel McSorley
mcsorley.1@osu.edu
ICQ:5299865
AIM:DanMcS

Kyle Foster
04-01-1998, 10:16 AM
The only mention of Divine wrath I could find was Michael's and the
Arch Duke of Boeruine when they met in combat. I think the Gorgon just
has nasty attitude that seems like divine wrath, because he also has the
power to back it up. Also the Gorgon was always from Azari's bloodline
having been one of the original champions of that deity.

Kyle
- --
"I drank WHAT?"- Socrates

Trizt
04-01-1998, 10:21 AM
KirbyRanma wrote:

> I was just looking over a blood ability chart and I noticed that Azrai's
>line does NOT have Divine Wrath, yet in THE IRON THRONE, the Gorgon *did* have
>that ability. Does this mean that when one switches to Azrai's line, they get
>their old blood abilities AND anything they get new with Azrai's? This seems
>to be the case, and if so does the common citizen know of this? I'm thinking
>they would, but would like the DM's to answer this for me. Thanks for your
>time

For the first thing, I don't recall that the Gorgon ever did change
bloodline, he has always been of Azrailine.
But if a character would be affected by some kind of magic or similare
things which transforms the bloodline to Azrai, then the all old powers
(IMO) would be left unchanged as long as it don't affect the new
bloodline or the original alignment of Azrai (a blood power which would
given "protection from evil" should be transformed to a new ability or
"protection from good")
There are always times when a bloodpower does much for the create the
characters personality, then it could be allowed to use bloodpowers
which aren't accesseble for the character (I wouldn't think this is
something which would be allowed for PC's, just only NPC's).

//Trizt

-

bloebick@juno.com (Benja
04-01-1998, 11:02 AM
On Wed, 1 Apr 1998 05:26:55 EST KirbyRanma writes:
>Hello again, everyone :-)
>
> Okay, I think I'm being overwhelmed with "the Gorgon doesn't have
>Divine
>Wrath" replies, so I yield that I read this wrong, however, my main
>question
>was basically, if Johan has Brenna's bloodline with a blood ability or
>two and
>does something that makes him Azrai's blood (such as stabbing a
>stronger Azrai
>bloodline person in the heart and losing the "blood battle"), does
>Johan keep
>his abilities and gain Azrai blood abilities when he goes up in
>points, or
>does he lose Brenna's abilities that Azrai doesn't have and we
>substitute ole
>snake boy's abilities in place?
>
>Take care all,
>KirbyRanma
>

I believe it is clearly stated (at least, that is how I remember it) that
if a person's derivation is changed to Azrai's bloodline, the player
losses all abilities that are not available to Azrai's bloodline. The
lost abilities are exchanged for new abilities at the same power level
(minor, major, great) that are available for Azrai's scions. New
abilities gained from increased bloodline score are chosen from those
available to Azrai's bloodline derivation. I hope this makes sense, as
I'm very tired.

Benjamin

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Memnoch
04-01-1998, 01:44 PM
Benjamin is correct in this one. The only "official" documentation that I
can find (and official does not include novels) about changing bloodline
Derivations is under The Legends of the Hero-Kings adventures under the
Ogre. This pretty much states that if a scion of any other derivation
changes that to Azrai by "bloodtheiving" an awnshegh, they blood-thief
immediately changes derivations to Azrai and gains Bloodform and all other
abilities are lost except for those that are common to his old bloodline
derivation and Azrai's derivation as well. By common I mean that the
particular blood power is included in it's description as having that power
under Azrai and the old bloodline as well... like Bloodmark or Divine Aura.

Memnoch
- -----Original Message-----
From: Benjamin W Loebick
To: birthright@MPGN.COM
Date: Thursday, April 02, 1998 5:19 AM
Subject: Re: [BIRTHRIGHT] - Blood abilities by Azrai


>
>On Wed, 1 Apr 1998 05:26:55 EST KirbyRanma writes:
>>Hello again, everyone :-)
>>
>> Okay, I think I'm being overwhelmed with "the Gorgon doesn't have
>>Divine
>>Wrath" replies, so I yield that I read this wrong, however, my main
>>question
>>was basically, if Johan has Brenna's bloodline with a blood ability or
>>two and
>>does something that makes him Azrai's blood (such as stabbing a
>>stronger Azrai
>>bloodline person in the heart and losing the "blood battle"), does
>>Johan keep
>>his abilities and gain Azrai blood abilities when he goes up in
>>points, or
>>does he lose Brenna's abilities that Azrai doesn't have and we
>>substitute ole
>>snake boy's abilities in place?
>>
>>Take care all,
>>KirbyRanma
>>
>
>I believe it is clearly stated (at least, that is how I remember it) that
>if a person's derivation is changed to Azrai's bloodline, the player
>losses all abilities that are not available to Azrai's bloodline. The
>lost abilities are exchanged for new abilities at the same power level
>(minor, major, great) that are available for Azrai's scions. New
>abilities gained from increased bloodline score are chosen from those
>available to Azrai's bloodline derivation. I hope this makes sense, as
>I'm very tired.
>
>Benjamin
>
>__________________________________________________ ___________________
>You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
>Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
>Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]
>
>************************************************** *************************
>>'unsubscribe birthright' as the body of the message.
>

Mark A Vandermeulen
04-02-1998, 03:49 PM
On Wed, 1 Apr 1998, Memnoch wrote:

> Benjamin is correct in this one. The only "official" documentation that I
> can find (and official does not include novels) about changing bloodline
> Derivations is under The Legends of the Hero-Kings adventures under the
> Ogre. This pretty much states that if a scion of any other derivation
> changes that to Azrai by "bloodtheiving" an awnshegh, they blood-thief
> immediately changes derivations to Azrai and gains Bloodform and all other
> abilities are lost except for those that are common to his old bloodline
> derivation and Azrai's derivation as well. By common I mean that the
> particular blood power is included in it's description as having that power
> under Azrai and the old bloodline as well... like Bloodmark or Divine Aura.

However, some care must be taken here. Now, although I don't (to my great
chagrin) have the LotHK book, I do know that there exist numerous examples
in the BR "cannon" of at least some "affinities" transfering over into new
awnsheigh. The Animal Affinity of the Azrai derivation is for the snake,
and many awnsheigh bear the mark of that affinity. The Serpent perhaps
most obviously, but also the Hydra, the Hag, and even the Gorgon appears
quite scaly in many of the pictures I have seen of him (and "The Medusa"
works well for a minor awnsheigh, I can say from personal experience). On
the other hand, there are numerous examples of awnsheigh who appear to be
transforming according to another affinity. The Anduras bloodline has the
affinity for lions, and I refer you to the Sphynx and the Lamia. The
Basaia bloodline has the affinity of the hawk, and I refer you to the
Harpy and the SwordHawk. So a case can be made of at least a part of the
"magical characteristics" of the bloodline derivation being retained even
after being transformed by the "Taint of Azrai." I would suggest that,
since awnsheighlein are cheifly DM characters, they mostly follow the
rules that have been mentioned here (i.e. only the "shared" blood
abilities remain after "awnsheighleinhood"), but if a DM has a good idea,
and retaining a blood ability from another derivation makes sense for the
character and the story, then I would say, by all means retain it.

Mark VanderMeulen
vander+@pitt.edu

James Ruhland
04-02-1998, 04:36 PM
Hmmmn. . .I'm not sure that Bloodform (or Bloodtrait for that matter) is
intended to be taken so "literally" (where in this case "literally" means
Bloodform=transformation into a form similar to the bloodline's animalistic
totem). I.E. Rhoubhe has Bloodform, but the only (obvious) physical
transformation is that he appears to be in constant need of a bath ("his
skin is now a shadowy grey"; sounds like he looks dirty to me. Perhaps his
Charisma should read "Cha: 17 (8/non-pesants), because I'm *sure* that
elves bathe fastidiously) (oh, and his eyes now look like gobs of mucus if
you ask me).
And several of the Awens & Ehrs can only be connected to one of the totem
animals by the longest of streaches (the Boar, the Banshegh, the Siren, the
Minoutaur, the Magian, the Vampire, the White Bitch, Black Princess, the
Badger, the Fae, etc, etc.)
(btw, I always thought the Siren was more beautious than everyone's
favorite Banshegh. Of course, conversation would be limited. I guess some
would consider that an added benifit. But IMO, nights with Justina, doesn't
sound like such a good idea to me. . .)
>
> However, some care must be taken here. Now, although I don't (to my great

> chagrin) have the LotHK book, I do know that there exist numerous
examples
> in the BR "cannon" of at least some "affinities" transfering over into
new
> awnsheigh. The Animal Affinity of the Azrai derivation is for the snake,
> and many awnsheigh bear the mark of that affinity. The Serpent perhaps
> most obviously, but also the Hydra, the Hag, and even the Gorgon appears
> quite scaly in many of the pictures I have seen of him (and "The Medusa"
> works well for a minor awnsheigh, I can say from personal experience). On
> the other hand, there are numerous examples of awnsheigh who appear to be
> transforming according to another affinity. The Anduras bloodline has the
> affinity for lions, and I refer you to the Sphynx and the Lamia. The
> Basaia bloodline has the affinity of the hawk, and I refer you to the
> Harpy and the SwordHawk. So a case can be made of at least a part of the
> "magical characteristics" of the bloodline derivation being retained even
> after being transformed by the "Taint of Azrai." I would suggest that,
> since awnsheighlein are cheifly DM characters, they mostly follow the
> rules that have been mentioned here (i.e. only the "shared" blood
> abilities remain after "awnsheighleinhood"), but if a DM has a good idea,
> and retaining a blood ability from another derivation makes sense for the
> character and the story, then I would say, by all means retain it.
>
> Mark VanderMeulen
> vander+@pitt.edu
>
>> To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the
line
> 'unsubscribe birthright' as the body of the message.

Mark A Vandermeulen
04-02-1998, 05:12 PM
On Thu, 2 Apr 1998, James Ruhland wrote:

> And several of the Awens & Ehrs can only be connected to one of the totem
> animals by the longest of streaches (the Boar, the Banshegh, the Siren, the
> Minoutaur, the Magian, the Vampire, the White Bitch, Black Princess, the
> Badger, the Fae, etc, etc.)

Well, I'm not saying that it applies to all awnsheigh, but doesn't the
rapport that the Sphynx has with all the cats in the country sound
suspiciously like the Animal Affinity Blood Ability? (I don't have my
Blood Enemies book here at school or I'd look it up.) And I think the
Harpy has sort of the same thing with the bird on her island, if I'm
remembering correctly.

> (btw, I always thought the Siren was more beautious than everyone's
> favorite Banshegh. Of course, conversation would be limited. I guess some
> would consider that an added benifit. But IMO, nights with Justina, doesn't
> sound like such a good idea to me. . .)

Well, I have to agree with you there. I've always prefered the Siren over
the Banshegh (I have nightmares when I try to think how I would play the
Banshegh as a DM). Besides, the Siren is a good example of how you don't
have to be evil just because you've become an awnsheigh--it just takes a
lot of work fighting against the inherent tendencies of the Blood.

Mark VanderMeulen
vander+@pitt.edu

James Ruhland
04-02-1998, 05:21 PM
>
> Well, I'm not saying that it applies to all awnsheigh, but doesn't the
> rapport that the Sphynx has with all the cats in the country sound
> suspiciously like the Animal Affinity Blood Ability?
>
True. But brings up a (small) point of contention/question for me: the
Sphynx hasn't got Animal Affinity. And the Harpy has neither Bloodform nor
Animal Affinity. So I'm still unsure of how all this "works", and usually
slap my questioning down by saying "they're monsters. learn to deal."
>
IMO, you can play the Bahshegh pretty much as Freddy Kruger, manipulating
dreams etc. (at least over *that* aspect of the Banshegh). The B. is a
complex NPC to play, no doubt about it. But IMO several of the Awens are
difficult to play (others are just brutes, so they're pretty easy).
>
> Well, I have to agree with you there. I've always prefered the Siren over
> the Banshegh (I have nightmares when I try to think how I would play the
> Banshegh as a DM).

Shade
04-03-1998, 12:17 AM
At 12:18 AM 4/1/98 EST, you wrote:
>Hello,
>
> I was just looking over a blood ability chart and I noticed that Azrai's
>line does NOT have Divine Wrath, yet in THE IRON THRONE, the Gorgon *did*
have
>that ability. Does this mean that when one switches to Azrai's line, they
get
>their old blood abilities AND anything they get new with Azrai's? This seems
>to be the case, and if so does the common citizen know of this? I'm thinking
>they would, but would like the DM's to answer this for me. Thanks for your
>time.
>
>Take care,
>KirbyRanma

I think it's another case of the authors of these books not getting their
facts straight with the designers. This seems to happen all the time
(characters in novels are often broken, or not conforming to the rules as they
are written.) The classic example is, how did a dark elf dual class from a
warrior class to another warrior class and acquire thief abilities in between?

What we've seen going on so long in FR is starting to happen to BR. Don't get
me wrong, I really enjoyed reading the Iron Throne and the Dark Elf Trilogy. I
just find it surprising that the people who MAKE the products make so many
mistakes, and don't follow their own rules.

Kyle Foster
04-03-1998, 10:29 AM
Also remeber that the sphinx was "supposedly" eaten by a lion, but his
blood abilites supposedly kept him alive and allowed his spirit to over
take that of the lion. Perhaps his conection to felines is due to that
and not his blood line, which IMO was always Azari's based on BE. The
harpy shares a similar origin in that she was a merger of a harpy and a
blooded individual. So maybe their uniqe abilites come from their wierd
merger orgin.

And also another vote for the Siren, but the Banshegh as the haunted
princess in need of rescue bit workin IMO. I have always thought of
Justina as a victim. Though I agree she will be a real pain to play
properly so that the characters care about Justina and want to help her
but want to get rid of the Banshegh but often of such GM nightmares are
great plots born, or just as often huge headaches from banging your head
against the table.

Kyle
- --
"What's so amazing about really deep thoughts?" - Tori Amos, "Silent
All These Years"