Summoning Maintenance

[A_dark]

Should the mage who summons a unit of Stonecrown Ogres pay for their maintenance while the spell lasts?

Although I had never thought of it till yesterday, it seems to me that he obviously has to pay... The units are not magical in nature, so they would need food to sustain themselves.

[teloft]

perhaps thay migth be willing to pillage for there uppkeep.

[Raesene Andu]

Actually, in the BRCS, the monsters summoned are magical I believe. Thus no maintenance.

With regerd to summoning creatures, I generally rule in my campaigns that a maintenance cost is required for any unit present at the start of the domain turn. If they are summoned creatures, I'd think that cost would be the same as if they were fighting for a member of their own race/allied race.

[Osprey]

I think any summoned magical creatures are thaumivores, i.e., they require magical energy to stay manifested in the physical world. Thus, it shouldn't be GB but RP required to sustain them. Now if the Rp was mebhaighl shaped into "shadow coins" or food or some such, that would be OK as a flavor element, but the RP should be what is spent to keep em around.

[A_dark]

In the 2nd edition rulebooks, the creatures summoned with the realm spell are not magical in nature, but perfectly mundane... So I don't think that we are justified to say that they would only require magical energies and not actual food.

If we rely on pillage, as Teloft said, then if a ergent summons the units to help him protect himself, he will end up with his own provinces being pillaged and that's not a good thing :D

If in the BRCS the units are magical, then it's different, but I am hosting a PBEM using the 2nd ed rules, so I cannot rely on it :(

[teloft]

I could think of thees summons as some kind of lure, thet would make the unit think of you as a somone thay are willing to figth for. then they migth travel to your realm by normal means, (for lower spell level) or could be magicaly transported.

not like summond creatures, thay are totaly real in this world, and when thay die, they truely die.

[tcharazazel]

Acording to the BRCS, the Summon Monstrous Unit says that, "you conjuer terrible monsters to come forth and do battle on the world of Cerillia. These monsters are quasi-real seemings -- life-like manifistations of the casters imagination... any summoned monster slain fades into nothingness. All members of a unit generally fade into nonthingness whenever a summoned unit is disbanded... Freed units are not under the caster's control and immediately fall into the normal behavior for their monster type. These monsters have normal statistics and can be slain as normal members of their species, but they cannont age or reproduce. They are outsiders..."

Well... that basically shows the monsters summoned are of the seeming and not real. As such, they would not need food or water, as they are not real.


However, for natures ally... those are real animals, except for the higher level version, which animates the trees. So the animals probably would need to be fed and taken care of, though I dont think the trees would really as they can just plant themselves while they wait for orders.

[irdeggman]

Except that items from the seeming are indeed real. The seeming is just constantly changing (i.e., the shadow world) and everything is exactly as it appears (see Bloodspawn for references to this).

[teloft]

Bloodspawn: So I could mate up with one of them and we could reproduce?

[irdeggman]

Originally posted by teloft@Jun 9 2004, 04:42 PM
Bloodspawn: So I could mate up with one of them and we could reproduce?
Yes, but things constantly change so you never know what you'd wake up with :lol:

[tcharazazel]

Except that items from the seeming are indeed real.

Thought we were talkin about the summon monster spell.

[irdeggman]

Originally posted by tcharazazel@Jun 9 2004, 06:37 PM

Except that items from the seeming are indeed real.

Thought we were talkin about the summon monster spell.
Except that you brought this one up yourself:


Well... that basically shows the monsters summoned are of the seeming and not real. As such, they would not need food or water, as they are not real.

[tcharazazel]

Umm... dude, monsters are not items last i checked. You brought up the item concept, not I.

[Raesene Andu]

By the way, in my campaign, the summon creatures are real, and require maintenance as per normal if they are to be maintained beyond the length of the spell. I just like my monsters to have some personality, rather than being quasi-real magical beings.

[destowe]

Since this is concerning the 2nd edition game, it is 2 GBs and 5 RP for one month+one week/level.

Most high end units cost 2 GB to have the service for 3 months after mustering. So unless the caster is over 8th level the cost is about the same for maintenance of a unit. Higher levels get a break, lower don't.

I always thought the GBs went as payment and the RP were more of a magical lure on the monsters. Letting them see you in a better light and they come to your service.

Once the spell fades, they realize they have been used and take out their frustrations immediately.

[tcharazazel]

heh, well the spell is supposed to be a large scale version of summon monster and summon natures ally. Summoned creatures for summon monster are considered outsiders, and as we pretty much just have the SW in BR then they obviously would come from the SW and the seeming and the casters imagination then. Hence, the logic behind them being quasi-real. As they are actually more of a summon shadow creatures idea it seems.

The problem that would need to be fixed to have these quasi-real creatures, who now suddenly need food and water, would be to give them a GB muster cost or just add a unit maintenance cost to them. As currently, they have none. They are all considered outsiders, and outsiders when summoned do not need to eat or drink.

Additionally, you all are obviously forgetting that they could summon Elementals! And elementals do not require food, shelter, sleep, ect. Thus, forcing them to pay maintenace for creatures that do not normally require any sustanance to survive in the first place, makes no sense.


It really makes more sense that the summon natures ally realm spell would require maintenace as those are real animals, while the summon monstrous unit realm spell would not as they are not real creatures.

And as they are summoning the animals of the forrest, it would stand to reason that they have to pay maintenance to keep them alive. However, for the high level version of the spell when they animate the trees it would not make sense to pay maintenance as the trees wouldn't need food, just need to replant their roots while they wait for the enemy to come.

[irdeggman]

Originally posted by tcharazazel@Jun 9 2004, 07:50 PM
Umm... dude, monsters are not items last i checked. You brought up the item concept, not I.
???

Items as used was the broad term to include anything made from the seeming. Sorry I thought that was obvious.

[destowe]

For the BRCS version of the spell, even creatures that are freed are still of the outsider type. Using the Section on Polymorph under Rules of the Game on the Wizards site:

"Outsiders breathe, but do not need to eat or sleep (although they can do so if they wish). Native outsiders breathe, eat, and sleep. (Natural ability.)"

Since the spell rules has them not able to reproduce or age, there should not be any native outsiders. All that break free and stay would be outsiders.

So there may not be any maintenance. The satisfaction of combat may be enough for them.

[Osprey]

Aye. I see only the creatures that manage to stay after the spell's duraction becoming truly real and solid - and at that point, they leave any part of them still in the Shadow World behind. As they could have been any type of shadow creature behind, I assume they can become any type of creature if still alive and unbanished when the summoning ends (the chances of staying in the physical world if the spell ends in a high-source area is actually pretty high...). While originally just creatures formed of the Seeming, these nightmares may become real enough, and no longer Seeming but given real life should they not be returned when the spell expires or death takes them first.

Osprey