Formal titular address in Cerilia

[camelotcrusade]

Hi everyone,

We like to play up the formalities of the court in RP, but we are making it up on the fly. We don't mind doing that, but I was wondering if anyone had a quick and easy guidelines for formal address in Cerilia.

Here are some questions I have. First, addressing the regent. We've been using my liege, or simply "regent" (as in "Yes, regent" for this. What do you guys do?

Second, magicians and wizards. Any special titles here? I don't think simply saying "lord" or "lady" does justice to the special status achieved by magic users in some societies.

Third, I like to assume someone is actually in charge of each province, who then reports to a higher authority. I've been calling this person a Baron, but I have no clue what sort of a person he should be. Mayor is more city level... anyway, any suggestions on this?

I'm about to go to a new area in our campaign and this Baron person will be there, and so will his court magician. Would like them both to have special titles (Baron and Magister would be fine... but wondering again what you guys do...).

Thanks!!

[tcharazazel]

heheh we had a rather lengthy discussion about this earlier, here:

Cultural Titles thread (http://www.birthright.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=2522)


Also on my website, I have posted the system that I am currently using for titles.

Mieres Empire (http://home.earthlink.net/~blaede/index.html)


For arcane spell casters... well there is Archmage, or mystic, or seer, ect. however, they are really more like job titles not nobility titles, so just giving him a title that is appropriate for his job would make sense. If the arcane caster is of noble blood, then they would more likely use that title instead, unless they do not wish to, or it is unknown by the people.


now then, normally a Baron would be someone with a bit more land than 1 province, so maybe the title Lord or Count would be more appropriate.

[camelotcrusade]

Thanks! I tried searching for this but didn't have any luck... I knew you guys would help me find it. I'll go and read up.

[blitzmacher]

What would be appropriate military titles or ranks in a rjurik army?

[tcharazazel]

Well, there are some books on the subject if you do a google search for viking military titles or ranks.

actually here, just found this site:

Viking Military Organization (http://www.regia.org/viking3.htm)

Heres a quick quote from the site:

During the 11th century


There was very little formal structure by way of military rank in Viking armies. As a rule the term dreng is applied to a young warrior, and ðegn to a more mature member of a boat's crew. The only two specifically military posts referred to at the time were the merkismathr, the standard bearer (an honoured position since many Viking standards were said to have magical properties), and the stallari or marshal - the king's deputy in the field.


Heres another site and quote: The Vikings (http://www.inisfail.com/~ancients/the-vikings.html)



Scandinavian society was broken into classes as were most societies of the period.* At the top was the RigsJarl or King, then came the Jarls who were lesser rulers, next were the Karls or Noble Warriors, and Thegnes or Bondi who were free warriors of lesser standing, last came the Thralls who were owned slave labour.



The most famous of the warrior brotherhoods, or mercenary bands of Vikings, was the Jomsvikingelag or Jomsvikings which was the subject of its own Saga. Danish accounts say the Jomsvikings were established in Wendland in the 10th century by Harald Blue Tooth of Denmark who was banished from his own kingdom by his son Swein Forkbeard. The fortress of Jomsborg was at or near Wollin at the mouth of the Oder. It had an artificial harbour, with its entrance guarded by a great tower built upon an archway with iron gates.

The harbour was said to hold over 300 ships but 30-36 is a more likely figure. The Jomsvikings lived by extremely strict rules, and trained to fight as a unit. Membership in the brotherhood was limited to men of outstanding strength, courage, and fighting ability, between 18 and 50 years of age. They were never to show any fear no matter how hopeless matters were. Flight from battle was forbidden and carried a death penalty. To abandon a brother in combat was a death penalty.

Each summer they went forth and fought in wars in many lands, and their reputation grew, a reputation of winning and never giving in to the enemy. A reputation of courage and martial ability.

[Fearless_Leader]

Originally posted by camelotcrusade@Jun 3 2004, 05:12 AM
Hi everyone,

We like to play up the formalities of the court in RP, but we are making it up on the fly. We don't mind doing that, but I was wondering if anyone had a quick and easy guidelines for formal address in Cerilia.

Here are some questions I have. First, addressing the regent. We've been using my liege, or simply "regent" (as in "Yes, regent" for this. What do you guys do?

Second, magicians and wizards. Any special titles here? I don't think simply saying "lord" or "lady" does justice to the special status achieved by magic users in some societies.

Third, I like to assume someone is actually in charge of each province, who then reports to a higher authority. I've been calling this person a Baron, but I have no clue what sort of a person he should be. Mayor is more city level... anyway, any suggestions on this?

I'm about to go to a new area in our campaign and this Baron person will be there, and so will his court magician. Would like them both to have special titles (Baron and Magister would be fine... but wondering again what you guys do...).

Thanks!!
I have a fair bit about Anuirean titles and formal methods of address up on my page as well. http://www.geocities.com/fearless_leader10...II/society.html (http://www.geocities.com/fearless_leader101/HeirsIII/society.html)

Basically, it goes as follows:

Emperor "Your Majesty" (Also applies to Kings)
Prince "Your Highness"
Duke/ Archduke "Your Grace"
Baron "My Lord Baron"
Count "Your Excellency"
Other titles "Your Lordship"

Archpriests "Your Eminence"

Guilds and wizards are typically referred to as "Guildmaster" or some such, especially if they are commoners. Should a guildsman or wizard hold a noble title, then the list above applies.

[ryancaveney]

On Thu, 3 Jun 2004, blitzmacher wrote:



> What would be appropriate military titles or ranks in a rjurik army?



On Thu, 3 Jun 2004, tcharazazel wrote:



> Well, there are some books on the subject if you do a google search,

> however, here are some basic military ranks for ya.

>

> lowest to highest:

> Thrall, Landsmen, Carl, Huscarl, then maybe Chief then Jarl then King.



Those are all really social/economic classes, rather than military ranks

as such. I don`t think the Rjurik really have equivalents of corporal,

sergeant, major, colonel, etc. -- in fact, I doubt any realm in Cerilia

does. This is really a very modern way of doing things; there`s almost

none of this in Europe before the 18th century except for the Roman

Empire. The terms given do have specific meanings in Rjurik society,

however, so any game set there can profit from working them in properly.

In Cerilia, I`d restrict modern/Roman military procedures to the dwarves.



That said, these words are authentic expressions for important social

realities in the real-world peoples on whom the Rjurik are largely based,

so including them in a game set there I think is a fine idea; however, I`d

recommend using them for what they really meant, rather than confusing

everybody by reusing them wil different technical definitions.



Obviously, only the King is the King. =) In BR, Jarls are regents of

provinces (this is the definition used by "The Rjurik Highlands"

accessory), and Chiefs are the leaders of nomadic tribes.



A thrall is a slave; it was generally held by the Celtic and Germanic

societies on which the Rjurik are based that one of the defining

characteristics distinguishing a free man from a slave is that a free man

should bear arms to defend his family, but a slave is permitted no

weapons. Therefore, if you hand a thrall a weapon, by doing so you make

him a free man! You`d better be prepared to pay his purchase price to his

former owner, or become a thrall yourself in his place if you can`t afford

the price! Killing the slaveowner you`ve just robbed and starting a

blood-feud with his family is also a possible option. =) Even if you

ignore this legal technicality, you at least provide him the means to make

himself into one by escaping; it is extremely tricky and generally unwise

to make slaves into an army.



Carls are prosperous farmers; this same word (Anglo-Saxon `ceorl`)

eventually became English `churl`, which is a derogatory word, but

old-time Viking carls were the upper middle class. That makes landsman

(I`ve seen a lot of other words for this class) the poorer farmer types.



The only strictly military term on the list is huscarl; literally,

House-Carl, the prosperous freemen a noble maintained as part of his

household as professional warriors. One word missing from the list is

"thane" (rhymes with "rain"; also spelled "thegn", which rhymes with

"reign" ;) -- this word can mean minor nobleman, wealthy farmers or

merchant, famous warrior, etc. In BR terms, there should be at least one

and probably several people associated with each level of a law or guild

or province holding who is referred to as a thane of some kind.



The way this stuff operates in practice in military engagements is that

each tribe or other political unit has a warband, which consists of all

the professional warriors kept on staff (call them huscarls if you like,

or "weaponthanes", but just "warrior" will do fine as well) led by a

champion or warleader or other such term. In times of crisis, all the

freemen (and women, depending on your Cerilia`s attitude toward such

things) may be called up to defend their homes, which in BR is just levies

(or irregulars in tribal Rjurik provinces, if you use those special

rules); a good Anglo-Saxon collective noun for these people is "fyrd"

(pronounced mostly like "feared", which is very appropriate, somehow).



Beyond that, it probably isn`t broken down very much. However, since

personal reputation is such a powerful force in such a society, as is the

web of favors owed one way and another, and the other people in the unit

are probably all your neighbors and relatives, social considerations

determine who leads (The King is in command, followed by his brother, then

the Jarl of the most important province, then the Jarl who brought the

biggest warband -- which has his cousin as second in command, then his

nephew, then the famous warrior Sven the Orog-Hammer, etc.). Also, among

the warriors, they will spend enough time competing against each other in

one way or another that they will always known their place in the pecking

order, so there is no need to establish a formal procedure of heirarchy:

everyone in the Raven Clan knows that if their warleader, Bjorn, falls,

then Ragnar will take over; if he falls as well, Halfdan is the next-best

warrior, and so on. If you get to the point where nobody you know is left

standing, it`s long past time to have run away.



If you really want different ranks for lance corporals and colour

sergeants and subalterns and lieutenant colonels and all that, it needs to

be in a realm which is very closely tied to the more settled and

regimented societies of Anuire or possibly Brechtur; in that case, they

will probably be using the foreign words of whatever neighbor country they

got the rank structure from, and they will all sound very strange indeed

to the local folk. The traditional countryside Rjurik and the druids

should be dead-set against any such thing.





Ryan Caveney

[tcharazazel]

Go reread my post, i had edited it, after I first posted it.

[Birthright-L]

tcharazazel said:

> Go reread my post, i had edited it, after I first posted it.



I am not sure if us email plebs get updates when people edit posts.

Perhaps you could summarise the changes for those of us that are petrified

of forums?



--

John Machin

(trithemius@kallisti.net.nz)

"Nothing is more beautiful than to know the All."

- Athanasius Kircher, `The Great Art of Knowledge`.

[tcharazazel]

heh, ill just repost it here for ya then:

Well, there are some books on the subject if you do a google search for viking military titles or ranks.

actually here, just found this site:

Viking Military Organization

Heres a quick quote from the site:

During the 11th century


QUOTE
There was very little formal structure by way of military rank in Viking armies. As a rule the term dreng is applied to a young warrior, and ðegn to a more mature member of a boat's crew. The only two specifically military posts referred to at the time were the merkismathr, the standard bearer (an honoured position since many Viking standards were said to have magical properties), and the stallari or marshal - the king's deputy in the field.




Heres another site and quote: The Vikings


QUOTE

Scandinavian society was broken into classes as were most societies of the period. At the top was the RigsJarl or King, then came the Jarls who were lesser rulers, next were the Karls or Noble Warriors, and Thegnes or Bondi who were free warriors of lesser standing, last came the Thralls who were owned slave labour.





QUOTE
The most famous of the warrior brotherhoods, or mercenary bands of Vikings, was the Jomsvikingelag or Jomsvikings which was the subject of its own Saga. Danish accounts say the Jomsvikings were established in Wendland in the 10th century by Harald Blue Tooth of Denmark who was banished from his own kingdom by his son Swein Forkbeard. The fortress of Jomsborg was at or near Wollin at the mouth of the Oder. It had an artificial harbour, with its entrance guarded by a great tower built upon an archway with iron gates.

The harbour was said to hold over 300 ships but 30-36 is a more likely figure. The Jomsvikings lived by extremely strict rules, and trained to fight as a unit. Membership in the brotherhood was limited to men of outstanding strength, courage, and fighting ability, between 18 and 50 years of age. They were never to show any fear no matter how hopeless matters were. Flight from battle was forbidden and carried a death penalty. To abandon a brother in combat was a death penalty.

Each summer they went forth and fought in wars in many lands, and their reputation grew, a reputation of winning and never giving in to the enemy. A reputation of courage and martial ability.

[tcharazazel]

oops, forgot to redo the web addies.

Viking Military Organization (http://www.regia.org/viking3.htm)

and

The Vikings (http://www.inisfail.com/~ancients/the-vikings.html)

[ryancaveney]

On Thu, 10 Jun 2004, John Machin wrote:



> tcharazazel said:

> > Go reread my post, i had edited it, after I first posted it.

>

> I am not sure if us email plebs get updates when people edit posts.



We`re not plebs, esteemed and venerable colleague; we`re impoverished

patricians of ancient line, like the Julii. =)



But yes, as far as I am concerned, if it`s not posted to email, it didn`t

happen. Thanks for the repost, tcharazazel.





Ryan Caveney

[Birthright-L]

Ryan B. Caveney said:

> We`re not plebs, esteemed and venerable colleague; we`re impoverished

> patricians of ancient line, like the Julii. =)



Hear! Hear!



(Old bathtowels still count as toga, right?)



--

John Machin

(trithemius@kallisti.net.nz)

"Nothing is more beautiful than to know the All."

- Athanasius Kircher, `The Great Art of Knowledge`.

[anacreon]

Originally posted by Fearless_Leader+Jun 4 2004, 12:01 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Fearless_Leader @ Jun 4 2004, 12:01 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-camelotcrusade@Jun 3 2004, 05:12 AM



Emperor "Your Majesty" (Also applies to Kings)
Prince "Your Highness"
Duke/ Archduke "Your Grace"
Baron "My Lord Baron"
Count "Your Excellency"
Other titles "Your Lordship"

Archpriests "Your Eminence"

[/b][/quote]
Actually, only a member of a royal family (i.e. the immediate kin of a king or emperor) gains the "your highness" form of address (usually as "your royal highness" or "your imperial highness"), the title itself is immaterial.
Royal families aside, in standard European nobility ranks, a duke is higher than a prince, and an archduke is even higher.

"your excellency" is not really related to nobility at all. It is the title given to every ambassador, for instance.

[ryancaveney]

On Thu, 10 Jun 2004, John Machin wrote:



> Ryan B. Caveney said:

> > We`re not plebs, esteemed and venerable colleague; we`re impoverished

> > patricians of ancient line, like the Julii. =)

>

> Hear! Hear!

>

> (Old bathtowels still count as toga, right?)



Of course! -- so long as you remember to wrap them properly, and carry

yourself with the proper gravitas. Getting yourself elected consul and

walking around with your dozen fasces-wielding lictors does wonders for

suppressing odd looks from the crowd in the forum. Just be careful not to

wear a purple one, lest you be stabbed on your way to the Senate for

trying to become a king. The distinguished gentleman in the 37th year of

his tribunician power, however, has no clothes at all, but don`t let the

Praetorian guard hear you say that.





Ryan Caveney

[Sthenelos]

Anacreon, while true today, it would be unapropriate for the early renaissance.

Your highness aplies to princes as well, as Your Serene Highness for current sovereign princes, and the scions of ducal and grand ducal sovereign houses;

Until about a century before the renaissance, the styles of highness, grace and excellency would have been enough for both kings and emperors, with the two "lesser" styles also being used with the lesser ranked sovereign houses.
Charles Quint was the first HRE to claim the style of Majesty, as he considered that remaining an Highness did not convey the fact that he was elevated from King of Spain to Emperor.
His rival, Francis I, decided to follow and adopted the style of Majesty as well. At first only used in internal documents (and then only slowly in the new provinces at the periphery), he finally had it recognised in the treaty of Crépy, where he is styled as Royal Majesty, and Charles V as Imperial Majesty. With this, other princes (both sovereign and royal) began using the Highness style. In England, it remained a mix of Highness, Grace, Excellence and Majesty until the advent of James I/VI.
When Don Ferdinand, a younger son of the king of Spain, travelled from Italy to the Low Countries, he grew upset because he was undistinguished from even the pettiest Italian ruler, decided once he reached the court of Savoy to be addressed as Royal Highness, and the duke of Savoy was to be called Highness, this was in 1633. Upon learning this, the french princes followed suit, and it was then quickly copied during the seventeenth century by the royal courts. Insulted at being outranked by the grand duke of Tuscany, Amedeo, the duke of Savoy, lobbied to be called royal highness, with his claims to Cyprus as a basis. It never worked, but the Savoys gained their Majesty in 1713 upon gaining Sardinia. The grand duke of Tuscany, Cosimo III, then followed by adopting Royal Highness, with the duke of Lorraine being granted this style by Emperor Leopold.
The Serene Highness was aso a follow-up of the quick adoption of Royal Highness by Gaston d&#39;Orléans, at first used by the Prince of Condé in 1650 (in an imitation of the style of the Republics of Venice, Genoa, Poland and the Netherlands and the Order of Malta), followed by the Orleans once they losed the HRH in 1723, with Louis XIV pressuring the nobles to address the Royal Dukes this way with little success, the non royal princely houses of Frances (Bouillon, Rohan, Guise, etc.) did so with more success in the late 17th century.
In the Empire, the Electors were addressed as Durchlaucht (commonly translated as HSH, but litteraly His Tranparency) by 1375, but the other important houses began adopting it with Würtemberg first in 1664.
By the time of the Confederacy of the Rhein, the styles used under napoleon were Escellent Highness for the princes (dukes, grand dukes), Eminent Highness for the Prince (and Cardinal) Primate of the Confederacy, from the Emnince style for Cardinals, Majesty for the kings, Royal Highness for the Grand Duke of Hesse and Imperial Highness for the Grand Duke of Berg (Joachim Murat, whose style was derived from his being married to Caroline Bonaparte rather than from his principality, and became Majesty as he was crowned king of Naples)

By 1866, the styles were as such in the Germanic COnfederacy
Majesty for the kings and the Emperor of Austria (often HIM, HI&RM after the compromise of 1867)
Royal or Imperial Highness for Crown Princes, Royal Princes, Grand Dukes, and the Prince-Elector of Hesse (they insisted on keeping it until a few years later), Highness for Grand Ducal princes and the other Thuringian dukes, Serene Highness for sovereign princes and dukes as well as mediatized princes (margraves count as mediatized princes), Illustrious Highness for mediatized Counts.

The patricians of Berne held the title of Excellency, but were considered nobility and often held feudal holdings in the Bernese dependencies (Oberland, Aargau, Vaud)

As for court, except for Spain, it was quite informal until the late Elizabethan era.

To have an idea of how these matters applied in the past in our world, I suggest Heraldica, if you don&#39;t have the time to delve in the source materials...

[Sthenelos]

Tidbit on the title of Archduke
I just discovered this bit, there did exist a non Habsburg archduchy. It was constituted from parts of the duchy of Milan and the other French conquests in Italy by Francis I of France during the wars of Italy for the Constable of Bourbon as the Archduchy of Sessa. While they were royal cousins and shortly after first princes of the blood, the dukes of Bourbon were at least 20th cousins to the royal house of Valois.