Grant or Loan ??

[Kowanga]

Playing Birthright a question surged. The regent made an agreement with me,
The Court Mage, he would muster armies (with my gold) and then loan them to
me, so I could make a exploration. The question is..
is this a loan (with diplomacy, or without it ?), or is it a grant like my
DM says. ???
What do you think about it ?
IMO it is a loan without need of diplomacy because he just lets that I
command the troops for a while.

[James Ruhland]

Seems like the main point of contention here is: is a Diplo action needed
or not? IMO, that depends more on the relationship that existed with your
Regent & the Mage in question. IMO, if he was already your Court Mage, and
had a close, ongoing relationship/alliance with your character, then I
wouldn't require a Diplomatic Action in either case (I.E. it wouldn't
matter if it was a Grant or a "loan"; actually, technically, I think it's a
Grant no matter what: he Grants you the troops (Grant is a free action),
then when you're done borrowing them, you Grant them back).
Diplo actions, IMO, are tools for establishing, strengthening (or
weakening. . .) relationships with neighboring realms. I don't usually
think they're required when you're dealing with Vassals or folks you have a
already strong relationship (I.E. the Court Mage; especially if he spends a
lot of time in your Court). Making Diplo actions a requirement for a whole
bunch of activities tends to cut down on inter-realm interaction ('cause
players would rather spend their precious 3 Actions per turn +1 Lt action
on some misguided scheme or another). Since this is a role playing game,
interaction should be encouraged, not penalized.
(Oh, and don't take this to mean that Diplomacy should be a Free action or
never required: just that the requirements for it should be somewhat loose,
not overly strict.)
>
> Playing Birthright a question surged. The regent made an agreement with
me,
> The Court Mage, he would muster armies (with my gold) and then loan them
to
> me, so I could make a exploration. The question is..
> is this a loan (with diplomacy, or without it ?), or is it a grant like
my
> DM says. ???
> What do you think about it ?
> IMO it is a loan without need of diplomacy because he just lets that I
> command the troops for a while.
>
>
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[Robert Harper]

(see original message below)

Since my response is a bit long, the short version is: IMHO, somewhere
along the line a Diplomacy Action was required. Either to do it, or to
create the relationship that lets you do it without one.

You need to look at all Regent actions through a lens of "what would this be
in Domain action terms". I don't allow GB's to change hands without
examining what the transaction is under the rules, with a bias towards any
action involving GB's needingt an underlying Domain Action of some sort (if
you want to convert GB's into cash and use them fine, you've laundered it
using Finances actions).

It's very easy to start letting PC regents gain an advantage over NPC's by
not using up actions on things NPCs would have to use actions on.

Without the "court mage" status, it clearly seems to be Diplomacy (one
action, by whoever initiates discussions for the arrangement, automatic
success if the PC targeted agrees). It is an agreement between regents,
involving Domain assets being traded about. It looks like a relatively
'fair' exchange so its not simply a Grant or pair of Grants (GB's one way,
troops the other).

If the Mage wanted to do this with an NPC Regent, it would be a Diplomacy
action to negotiate it. The fact it's a PC gives an easier ride (automatic
success) but an action should still be required. The best way to regulate
inter-PC activity to ensure PC's don't get an innate advantage under the
rules is to do this "substitution" test of saying "if one was an NPC, how
would it work".

The real question is can one PC (or NPC) have a status called "court mage"
that lets them carry on some activities that normally require Domain actions
without one. I don't see any rules material on the niche of Court Mage, but
it is implied that the relationship/status is highly individualized - some
court mages, such as Caliene Llwelyn in Book of Magecraft, have hardly
anything to do with their Rulers and for them the status seems pretty
nominal. At the other end of the scale, you could have a Ruler with a
Wizard Lietenant he made his Court Mage.

Presumably the Ruler PC has not made the Court Mage PC a Lieutenant (which
an NPC court mage might be, depending on how much energy he devoted to realm
interests) - nor is the Court Mage PC being counted as one for action or
lifetime # of ltns.

I suggest the status of "Court Mage" is unique to each relationship (i.e.
what exactly it entails on both sides) and is created through a negotiation
which sets up what each regent is committing. This requires using a Domain
Action - Diplomacy. If the agreement noted that exchanges of resources and
efforts for mutual benefit would take place (reasonable expectation) then
subsequent deals of the sort you outline would not require additional Domain
actions.

The agreement provides a bit of roleplaying opportunity and can also
regulate use of NPC court mage or an NPC ruler's demands on a PC Court Mage
(i.e., don't you remember you agreed that you would attend at all Festivals,
State Weddings and Diplomatic Summits to use your magical abilities on the
Ruler's behalf?). I think this is also realisticly "feudal" in terms of a
quasi-contractual approach.

If it was just "sure Bob, your character can be my Court Mage", then that is
simply a near-meaningless title (at best given using a Decree), and I would
still require some Diplomacy for GB/domain asset transfers.

>Playing Birthright a question surged. The regent made an agreement with me,
>The Court Mage, he would muster armies (with my gold) and then loan them to
>me, so I could make a exploration. The question is..
>is this a loan (with diplomacy, or without it ?), or is it a grant like my
>DM says. ???
>What do you think about it ?
>IMO it is a loan without need of diplomacy because he just lets that I
>command the troops for a while.
>
>
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[Trizt]

On 14-Mar-98, Kowanga (kowanga@mindless.com) wrote about [BIRTHRIGHT] - Grant
or Loan ??:
- ->Playing Birthright a question surged. The regent made an agreement with me,
- ->The Court Mage, he would muster armies (with my gold) and then loan them to
- ->me, so I could make a exploration. The question is..
- ->is this a loan (with diplomacy, or without it ?), or is it a grant like my
- ->DM says. ???
- ->What do you think about it ?
- ->IMO it is a loan without need of diplomacy because he just lets that I
- ->command the troops for a while.

If you are the regents court mage, then there is no need for diplomancy, it's
a simple agreemnet between you two.

If the troops are cloathed in the regents arms and uses his standard for the
army, then it's a loan. This put's you in a weaker situation, the regent can
call on the army when he wants without you can stop it from leaving you
expidition.

If the troops don't carry anything which symbolies the regent, then it's a
grant from the regent to you to muster armed forces.

//Trizt of Ward^RITE

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