Least Favorite - FR

[Shade]

>We went over this very topic on Greytalk awhile back. And most everyone
>there pretty much felt this was an evil influence from the FR that all good
>AD&Ders should ignore completely. I was rather shocked they didn't do this
>nonsense in BR quite frankly. And very, very happy. So if you do have
>mortal elves in your game, dig out an old DMG and the age tables for elves
>therein.

Is it just me, or does everyone on this list hate/dislike the Forgotten
Realms?

Don't get me wrong, I also agree that they are rightfully forgotten (to borrow
from a comment someone else made a short while back.)

[Galwylin]

On 12 Mar 98 at 3:07, Samuel Weiss wrote:

You're completely right. Settings should not follow suit of other
settings because it's the cool thing to do at the time. They should
maintain their own flavor when they have it. Greyhawk was created as
the generic AD&D setting and it remains that. It remains subject to
the changes of the core rules because of that. I have no idea why it
was decided that the elves of Oerth would follow suit as the elves of
Toril. Greyhawk should have it's own presence enough to with stand
that from happening. And the truth is, it doesn't. When it is
released again later this year, it will have it's chance to make
itself special in some way as the Realms, Cerilia, Krynn, etc.
have. It your whole response you didn't state one grace of Greyhawk
other than what it's not. That's just not enough to sell anyone on
it. And keeping those said 'newbies' away are exactly why TSR is on
the edge of going under. No matter what you want for a setting it
has to appeal to new players and your desire to keep them out only
dooms the company and eventually Greyhawk.

The Birthright setting has done the same as the Realms in taking the
different races and making them special with in it. They're
different from any other settings in substance, history and beliefs.
Sure, the elves are being pushed back but that has become standard
for the race it seems but they've change the way they approach the
magic of Cerilia completely different from the generic elf that you
are promoting. You mock the halflings of Athas but they've
left enough of an impression that you didn't need to mention the
setting for people to know your reference. I hope that Birthright
gains the following it should so that mention of the Cerilian
halflings will make the same possible. Maybe if Greyhawk fans hadn't
depended on one voice so much that the setting could have survived
after his departure. It's coming back with a new voice but I doubt
it will be enough to secure it's continual publishment. People like
you won't let it not if it means having to make the setting
attractive to others and 'newbies'. I would urge the designers of
Birthright to go with what they think is right and design not to be
different but to design with heart and true intent. That's where
they will find success for the setting. It took me awhile to
discover Birthright through word of mouth about it's advantages
not what it wasn't. I hope Greyhawk can survive the same way. If it
depends on 'the Realms suck, try this' then I imagine we will be
witness to its death again in 1999.

> In reply to this, as well as James Ruhland referring to it as a "nefarious
> Tolkien influence", when AD&D started, elves lived a long time, died, and
> moved on to the outer planes. Then the FR came along. And there, the elves
> went sailing away into the moonset. Which I did not particularly care about
> one way or the other. I did not play FR. Then all of a sudden, the Complete
> Book of Elves comes out, and all elves are doing this wander off bit. And
> then, horror of horrors, FtA comes out, and now the GH elves are retreating
> as well! It becomes a fault, and something to be mocked Galwylin, when it
> starts to interfere with a setting I have come to know and enjoy. How would
> anyone on this list feel if tomorrow it was decreed that henceforth all
> halflings were Kender? Or cannibalistic? Or as has been mentioned regarding
> the city watch and innkeepers, that they are all 10th+ level? Those things
> are not part of this setting, and a good way for TSR to ruin the BR setting
> would be to import somethign from another game line just so everything can
> be the same. Major case in point: GDW converts Megatraveller to their
> Twilight:2000, et. al. house system and it goes nowhere. What if TSR
> decided everything would be SAGA system from now on? IF I want to play in
> the FR, I will buy it, and play it. I don't. And I don't want to see the
> things that make that setting unique (for bad or worse) coming over to any
> others. Which is why a lot of GHers don't like PS or RL either. Both of
> those settings almost demand such campaign mixing which in the end does
> nothing but destroy all the settings involved.
> And granted, we mock the FR constantly. Mostly because it is so easy, and
> so very antithetical to the GH spirit. We don't want any newbies thinking
> they are closely related simply because they are both AD&D. It would be
> like confusing (insert music type A) with (insert music type B). And if
> they want to mock us stodgy old-timers, living in the past, let them. It is
> their right. As long as they keep their elves to themselves.

____________________________________
This has been a Galwylinc Production

galwylin@airnet.net (ICQ #6755972)
http://www.airnet.net/galwylin/

[Galwylin]

At 08:44 PM 3/11/98 -0600, you wrote:
>
>Is it just me, or does everyone on this list hate/dislike the Forgotten
>Realms?
>
>Don't get me wrong, I also agree that they are rightfully forgotten (to
borrow
>from a comment someone else made a short while back.)

Not everyone hates the Realms. In fact, I hardly see reason to bring other
settings into a discussion of one except where you've adapted or used one
product from another. It doesn't speak well of one setting to have to cut
down another to lift it up. That's one problem I have with the Greytalk
list. Birthright has lots of things going for it and it debases it (and
the industry in general) to rely on the faults of another to point them
out. Makes you wonder how good it can be if the only way to show its
virtue to show what it's not. I hope this doesn't happen here as it has on
other lists. It detracts from the setting and makes the posters look
childish.

_____________________________________
This has been a Galwylin© Production

galwylin@airnet.net (ICQ #6755972)
http://www.airnet.net/galwylin/

[Brett Lang]

My groups ( I am the DM) have been playing in the realms most of our career
with the occasional jaunt to realmspace and the planes for like the last 10
years. We find the realms to be a good mix of wildnerness and civilzation,
maybe a little to much magic (but hey, that's not to bad) and a great cast
of supporting NPC's. All in all we find it a joy to adventure there. And
yes, some elves due migrate to Evermeet, a large isle about a 1,000 miles
of the coast to escape the encroaching human influence.

However, I must say that birthright is a fantastic game world. I love the
fact that magic and wizards are RARE. Magical items are even rarer, and
that it is more of a SWORDS & sorcery world rather than a swords & SORCERY
world as is the Realms. I also agree with some of you as to your outlook
on elves as they are more tolkein. Taller, immortal, etc.. I like them
not having infravision and having ultravision instead. They are more a
faerie race, and this a love ! Also the dwarves, there more an earch's
children kjind of people. All in all, it's just really cool !

The only hassle is incorperating Realms Ruling with adventuring, especially
when more than one PC has a regent. I've found its a lot easier to
incorprate the PC's into an adventure when one of the PC's is the regent,
had the others rule province's and guilds within that PC's Realm.

Anyway, that's my two bits worth !

Sweet water and light laughter until next !
Warlock.

- ----------
> From: Galwylin
> To: birthright@MPGN.COM
> Subject: Re: [BIRTHRIGHT] - Least Favorite - FR
> Date: Thursday, 12 March 1998 11:08
>
> At 08:44 PM 3/11/98 -0600, you wrote:
> >
> >Is it just me, or does everyone on this list hate/dislike the Forgotten
> >Realms?
> >
> >Don't get me wrong, I also agree that they are rightfully forgotten (to
> borrow
> >from a comment someone else made a short while back.)
>
> Not everyone hates the Realms. In fact, I hardly see reason to bring
other
> settings into a discussion of one except where you've adapted or used one
> product from another. It doesn't speak well of one setting to have to
cut
> down another to lift it up. That's one problem I have with the Greytalk
> list. Birthright has lots of things going for it and it debases it (and
> the industry in general) to rely on the faults of another to point them
> out. Makes you wonder how good it can be if the only way to show its
> virtue to show what it's not. I hope this doesn't happen here as it has
on
> other lists. It detracts from the setting and makes the posters look
> childish.
>
> _____________________________________
> This has been a Galwylin© Production
>
> galwylin@airnet.net (ICQ #6755972)
> http://www.airnet.net/galwylin/
>
>> To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the
line
> 'unsubscribe birthright' as the body of the message.

[James Ruhland]

>
> Is it just me, or does everyone on this list hate/dislike the Forgotten
> Realms?
>
I don't know. . .let me put it this way; I bought the original FR set
almost immediately after it came out, and was highly impressed with it. I
bought all the Gazetters & other accessories also, and all was well with
the world. Even at the start it had a tendancy towards lots of powerful
characters, but at first, far from thinking this a weakness, I thought it a
strength.
Then, slowly at first but with increasing speed, the powerful evil/enemy
NPCs/forces/organizations fell, and increasing numbers of powerful NPC
heros arose. The FR is now shaped almost entirely by forces out of the
control of DM's & their players, and if the current trend continues, I'm
not sure what oportunities for adventure will exist, because Elminster, the
Harpers, the Seven Sisters, etc. etc. ad infinatum will have slain every
villian & solved every problem.
So, I hate not the FR, but what it's become.

> Don't get me wrong, I also agree that they are rightfully forgotten (to
borrow
> from a comment someone else made a short while back.)
>> To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the
line
> 'unsubscribe birthright' as the body of the message.

[Sythryc]

you know i think the best way to handle a group where the regents all
adventure together isto have the gorgon, or his lieutenant or significant
other, pull a suprise rampage or have other drastic anti-life crisis arise
where they all must join together. i always did like the king arthur
approach, round table alliance (catchy phrase huh?) is birthright campaigns in
past.

[Samuel Weiss]

>Not everyone hates the Realms. In fact, I hardly see reason to bring
other
settings into a discussion of one except where you've adapted or used one
product from another. It doesn't speak well of one setting to have to cut
down another to lift it up. That's one problem I have with the Greytalk
list. Birthright has lots of things going for it and it debases it (and
the industry in general) to rely on the faults of another to point them
out. Makes you wonder how good it can be if the only way to show its
virtue to show what it's not. I hope this doesn't happen here as it has on
other lists. It detracts from the setting and makes the posters look
childish.<

In reply to this, as well as James Ruhland referring to it as a "nefarious
Tolkien influence", when AD&D started, elves lived a long time, died, and
moved on to the outer planes. Then the FR came along. And there, the elves
went sailing away into the moonset. Which I did not particularly care about
one way or the other. I did not play FR. Then all of a sudden, the Complete
Book of Elves comes out, and all elves are doing this wander off bit. And
then, horror of horrors, FtA comes out, and now the GH elves are retreating
as well! It becomes a fault, and something to be mocked Galwylin, when it
starts to interfere with a setting I have come to know and enjoy. How would
anyone on this list feel if tomorrow it was decreed that henceforth all
halflings were Kender? Or cannibalistic? Or as has been mentioned regarding
the city watch and innkeepers, that they are all 10th+ level? Those things
are not part of this setting, and a good way for TSR to ruin the BR setting
would be to import somethign from another game line just so everything can
be the same. Major case in point: GDW converts Megatraveller to their
Twilight:2000, et. al. house system and it goes nowhere. What if TSR
decided everything would be SAGA system from now on? IF I want to play in
the FR, I will buy it, and play it. I don't. And I don't want to see the
things that make that setting unique (for bad or worse) coming over to any
others. Which is why a lot of GHers don't like PS or RL either. Both of
those settings almost demand such campaign mixing which in the end does
nothing but destroy all the settings involved.
And granted, we mock the FR constantly. Mostly because it is so easy, and
so very antithetical to the GH spirit. We don't want any newbies thinking
they are closely related simply because they are both AD&D. It would be
like confusing (insert music type A) with (insert music type B). And if
they want to mock us stodgy old-timers, living in the past, let them. It is
their right. As long as they keep their elves to themselves.

Samwise

[Druid]

- --------------FCAEFF8B2D2C5143698446B6
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Personally, I have nothing against FR, although I did bag it a little
when it first came out, thinking TSR had willingly chosen it over GH.
I have never played in the region, though I have read some of the
material that is available for it. No, I am not fond of the large
number of Mages that are in it, but if I chosen to DM a campaign there I
would limit these people to a large degree. I like some of the
personalities, and I like the layout of some of the regions.

Elves? Never played one. The closest I ever came was a half-elf, but I
do believe that it makes for a better game (like BR) when they are
distant from one another, and elves are much more secretive. When two
large socities (nations) come together for the first time, it is quite
natural for them to try and whipe one another out - as with the elves
and humans in BR. I think elves work better when they are a mystety,
much like in LOTR.
-

[James Ruhland]

> be the same. Major case in point: GDW converts Megatraveller to their
> Twilight:2000, et. al. house system and it goes nowhere.
>
Well, 1st Traveller was converted to Megatraveller, which was ok I guess,
after a fashion. I prolly shouldn't get into it.

> And granted, we mock the FR constantly. Mostly because it is so easy, and
> so very antithetical to the GH spirit. We don't want any newbies thinking
> they are closely related simply because they are both AD&D.
>
Hmmmn. . .I also point out what I think are flaws in the way the FR has
gone because I know TSR people read the lists. I'm hoping that my rants,
and other people's more reasoned arguments, will encourage them to keep BR
on the path it's currently on. Other TSR Gameworlds (I.E. Athas/DarkSun)
started off well, too, only to succumb to the same kind of flaws (all the
heroic stuff done offstage, through novels, by NPC heros). I'm hoping,
praying, and voting with my dollar, that BR won't go that route.
So far things look good; but things looked good at 1st in both the FR & DS
worlds, too.

[James Ruhland]

> have. It your whole response you didn't state one grace of Greyhawk
> other than what it's not. That's just not enough to sell anyone on
> it.
>
Hmmmn. . .I could say some good things about Greyhawk. It and thouse old
Judges Guild mapsets were my 1st packaged campaign worlds. Greyhawk does
have it's own richness, it's own flavor. Heck, I remember when the whole
Giants/Drow/Loth series came out (and not the G1-3/D1-3 stuff, the original
junk, which I still have and love). Lots of the stuff you might think of
being "Faerunean" (FR) really had it's roots in GH (Drow, for one).

> are promoting. You mock the halflings of Athas but they've
> left enough of an impression that you didn't need to mention the
> setting for people to know your reference.
>
I don't think he was mocking them. . .I suppose I should re-read; his
statement was that if all Halflings became Kender, or canibals, on all
gameworlds, that would be bad. This doesn't mean that the Halflings of
Athas were being derided, just that having variations from gameworld to
gameworld is good.

Re. Elves, and the FR: I have, for example, the Evermeet accessory, and
it's very cool. FR elves aren't horrid. But IMO that accessory also points
out the weakness of the setting. IMO, not much oportunity for adventure on
Evermeet unless you're actively opposing the elven nation.

the Seven Sisters was also a exceptionally well-written, highly detailed
accessory. But unless I'm running a campaign with evil PCs, or where the
PCs need a whole lot of help/support, most of that info is rather wasted. I
mean, it's one thing to have Alustriel (my personal fav. of the 7) give the
PCs a mission (adventure) and have 'em carry it out; but for that we don't
really need a complete NPC description of her as if she'll be used in
combat etc. I donno. It's late and I'm ranting I'm sure. (heck, I like
Alustriel so much I'd like to *be* her, or emulate her, or marry her, or
something. But if I'm a PC in a game, I don't really want her and her
sisters to come solve every problem for me. I wanna be the one to defeat
the villian.)

[nick yates]

>Re. Elves, and the FR: I have, for example, the Evermeet accessory, and
>it's very cool. FR elves aren't horrid. But IMO that accessory also points
>out the weakness of the setting. IMO, not much oportunity for adventure on
>Evermeet unless you're actively opposing the elven nation.
>
>the Seven Sisters was also a exceptionally well-written, highly detailed
>accessory. But unless I'm running a campaign with evil PCs, or where the
>PCs need a whole lot of help/support, most of that info is rather wasted. I
>mean, it's one thing to have Alustriel (my personal fav. of the 7) give the
>PCs a mission (adventure) and have 'em carry it out; but for that we don't
>really need a complete NPC description of her as if she'll be used in
>combat etc.

. But if I'm a PC in a game, I don't really want her and her
>sisters to come solve every problem for me. I wanna be the one to defeat
>the villian.)
>

In that case FR might be just the place for a supermunchkin evil party,
take that Elminster! :-) I remember playing a Star Wars campaign once as
the Imperials, much fun was had being totally evil, flushing Rebel
prisoners out of airlocks etc.

Before I'm done for going off topic I'll drag it back to the original
point which was I think that races should be different in different
settings. I'd agree with that and I happen to like the BR Elves much more
than elven races in other settings.

For me it doesn't particularly matter what cool abilities they have but
actually playing an "immortal" character would be interesting and a good
change. Having said that though PCs aren't exactly the most long lived of
people. :-) Sorry my evil DM side of my nature got the better of me
there. Speaking of which races people play does anyone play Halflings in
BR? There's one halfling nation in HotGB that looks quite interesting.

Nick

[rad smith]

On Wed, 11 Mar 1998, Shade wrote:

> Is it just me, or does everyone on this list hate/dislike the Forgotten
> Realms?

i liked al-quadim, which IIRC was part of the realms. but frankly, the
rest of it stank.

'in this village is small tavern. the landlord (HM11 NG)...'

ugh.


- --
rad

i've got my hand in your head
i've got my hand in your head
and i'm pulling out all of your mind

[Tripp]

Galwylin wrote:
>

How did I get on the FR listserv? I thought we were here to discuss BR,
not bash any of the other worlds?

Tripp

[Petras Astrauskas]

> How did I get on the FR listserv? I thought we were here to discuss BR,
> not bash any of the other worlds?
Don't you think that visiting the other worlds gives you new good ideas
sometimes? Or you can find out that you shouldn't do something. Or at
least you can notice how wonderful the world you live in is.
Petras

[James Ray]

- ----------
> From: Galwylin
> To: birthright@MPGN.COM
> Subject: Re: [BIRTHRIGHT] - Least Favorite - FR
> Date: Wednesday, March 11, 1998 8:54 PM
>
> On 12 Mar 98 at 3:07, Samuel Weiss wrote:
>
That's just not enough to sell anyone on
> it. And keeping those said 'newbies' away are exactly why TSR is on
> the edge of going under. No matter what you want for a setting it
> has to appeal to new players and your desire to keep them out only
> dooms the company and eventually Greyhawk.

More likely to doom the company are: 1) Trying to adapt the game to its
least common denominator, the "Mony Haul" types, who strut around with
their sacks full of +5 and +6 weapons, riding mounts with +5 barding, and
so on and so forth.
2) Not getting stuff onto store shelves. We cant BUY it, if we cant FIND
it, and i have yet to see "TotHW". 3) If the stuff is selling, make sure
there is more of it around. Kinda sad to hear about BR products being sold
out already, when i KNOW i can still get "new" DS stuff, still in the
original plastic. 4) Make sure the product has been proofread...i mean,
hey - my copy of Al-Qadim doesnt have pp 129-145. Reprinted where they
SHOULD be, are duplicates of pp113-128. Couldnt play without all the
spells, and wasnt EVEN gonna sink ANOTHER $18 trying to get a usable copy
after that. (BTW, i hope someone got fired, over that one.)

[Galwylin]

At 07:59 AM 3/12/98 -0600, you wrote:
>
>More likely to doom the company are: 1) Trying to adapt the game to its
>least common denominator, the "Mony Haul" types, who strut around with
>their sacks full of +5 and +6 weapons, riding mounts with +5 barding, and
>so on and so forth.

I don't believe the company is doing that. Most the time I've heard of
things like that is in home campaigns. In fact, most of the older
materials were more guilty of that type thing than adventures today. Maybe
people like that kind of game. I dunno, never played in one like that.

>2) Not getting stuff onto store shelves. We cant BUY it, if we cant FIND
>it, and i have yet to see "TotHW".

My store has had that. I suggest you talk with your reseller.

>3) If the stuff is selling, make sure
>there is more of it around. Kinda sad to hear about BR products being sold
>out already, when i KNOW i can still get "new" DS stuff, still in the
>original plastic.

That DS stuff has been sitting in warehouses with dealers unwilling to take
it because the campaign box is out of print. TSR is reprinting it though
to get the stuff moving again.

>4) Make sure the product has been proofread...i mean,
>hey - my copy of Al-Qadim doesnt have pp 129-145. Reprinted where they
>SHOULD be, are duplicates of pp113-128. Couldnt play without all the
>spells, and wasnt EVEN gonna sink ANOTHER $18 trying to get a usable copy
>after that. (BTW, i hope someone got fired, over that one.)

I have two copies of that book and both are complete. Probably a printing
error. You should have gotten in touch with TSR customer service. I'm
sure they would have been happy to have helped you.

In my opinion, TSR is doing alot of the right things to attract new players
(if it's not too late). Birthright is just one way they've stretched the
AD&D rules farther to make a completely different game than before. That's
one reason I feel the debasing of other settings is pointless since they
all appeal to different moods of players. I enjoy many different settings
and Birthright is just the newest. Just about any mood I'm in there's
something there for me to use. I currently have a couple hundred dollars
of BR stuff on order and already shopping around for more but I haven't
recieved any of the Player's Guide to *****. Could someone give me an idea
of what I'll find in those?

_____________________________________
This has been a Galwylin© Production

galwylin@airnet.net (ICQ #6755972)
http://www.airnet.net/galwylin/

[Samuel Weiss]

>I don't think he was mocking them. . .I suppose I should re-read; his
statement was that if all Halflings became Kender, or canibals, on all
gameworlds, that would be bad. This doesn't mean that the Halflings of
Athas were being derided, just that having variations from gameworld to
gameworld is good.<

While I will mock kender as I dislike DL, my intent was as you believed. To
show that the variations are what makes the gameworlds, and that to make
them all the same is to lose that vital element.

>Well, 1st Traveller was converted to Megatraveller, which was ok I guess,
after a fashion. I prolly shouldn't get into it.<

It's ok. "The big book of typos" was pretty sad, we can admit that. I even
asked them at a Con if they were going to go over it to check such things
out before it was shipped and they said yes. *Sigh*

"Hmmmn. . .I also point out what I think are flaws in the way the FR has
gone because I know TSR people read the lists. I'm hoping that my rants,
and other people's more reasoned arguments, will encourage them to keep BR
on the path it's currently on."

That too.

>i liked al-quadim, which IIRC was part of the realms. but frankly, the
rest of it stank.<

Which did not need the FR to be playable. And which was so good, it could
be adated to almost any setting, even BR if you get rid of 99% of the
demi-human NPC's. It would be perfect for Djapur I would think. BTW, I
bought the softcover book not realizing it was set in the FR. But it was so
good, I bought the whole line and was glad I did.Note to TSR people, see
the paragraph above and make more like this. But then you already are with
Jakandor, aren't you?

Samwise

P.S. for those experienceng difficulty with finding BR products. In NYC,
The Compleat Strategist, 1-800-225-2123 for mail orders. Or fax
212-685-2123. I believe I saw everything but the boxed set on the shelves
Tuesday. They can't get rid of the stuff, and I figure if you people buy it
all up, they will buy lots of the new stuff so a copy will still be there
when I get into the city. I don't know what the shipping charges are, but
the stuff is all shrink-wrapped and list price. (Also maybe you will stop
complaining you can't find it anywhere. Now you know where it all is. : P)
Most of the PS stuff too.

[prtr02@scorpion.nspco.co]

- ----- Begin Included Message -----

"Hmmmn. . .I also point out what I think are flaws in the way the FR has
gone because I know TSR people read the lists. I'm hoping that my rants,
and other people's more reasoned arguments, will encourage them to keep BR
on the path it's currently on."

That too.

>i liked al-quadim, which IIRC was part of the realms. but frankly, the
rest of it stank.<

Which did not need the FR to be playable. And which was so good, it could
be adated to almost any setting, even BR if you get rid of 99% of the
demi-human NPC's. It would be perfect for Djapur I would think. BTW, I
bought the softcover book not realizing it was set in the FR. But it was so
good, I bought the whole line and was glad I did.Note to TSR people, see
the paragraph above and make more like this. But then you already are with
Jakandor, aren't you?


- ----- End Included Message -----

I couldn't agree more. While I've enjoyed DS and Al-Quadim, I pretty much
detest FR. Part of the process of describing what something is involves
describing what it isn't. That isn't childish, it's having the courage to
voice one's opinions. I certainly feel free to take a good-natured poke at
FR on occasion.

Likewise, others are free to enjoy the type of adventure FR offers. I don't say
people shouldn't play that setting- just MO that BR is superior by comparison.

BR is a unique high fantasy/rare magic/political setting. Characters have
reasons to adventure and role-play far beyond "kill the monster and get the
treasure".

I don't think there's much thought of transformation to a more generic setting on the existing BR team, but hey, team members change and they get direction from
superiors too.


I stand with the crowd that says "keep BR on the path it's currently on". If
the setting's uniqueness has to be sacrificed to improve sales, I say *gasp*
let it die. I'd rather see that then have it transformed into a generic D&D
setting. Better an end in horror than a horror without end.

Randax

[bloebick@juno.com (Benja]

On Thu, 12 Mar 1998 12:44:00 -0500 "Samuel Weiss"
writes:
>i liked al-quadim, which IIRC was part of the realms. but frankly,
>the rest of it stank.<
>
>Which did not need the FR to be playable. And which was so good, it
>could
>be adated to almost any setting, even BR if you get rid of 99% of the
>demi-human NPC's. It would be perfect for Djapur I would think. BTW, I
>bought the softcover book not realizing it was set in the FR. But it
>was so
>good, I bought the whole line and was glad I did.Note to TSR people,
>see

yeah, al-qadim rocked. i bought everything published for it. i also
like the fact that it is modular, ie, can be dropped into any world
without specific ties to one or the other.

>P.S. for those experienceng difficulty with finding BR products. In
>NYC,
>The Compleat Strategist, 1-800-225-2123 for mail orders. Or fax
>212-685-2123. I believe I saw everything but the boxed set on the
>shelves

the Compleat Strategist also has a store in Boston, on Massachusetts Ave.
about 2.5 blocks south of the Hynes Convention Center stop (right at
Tower Records).

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[George Koch]

> > have. It your whole response you didn't state one grace of Greyhawk
> > other than what it's not. That's just not enough to sell anyone on
> > it.
> >
> Hmmmn. . .I could say some good things about Greyhawk. It and thouse old
> Judges Guild mapsets were my 1st packaged campaign worlds. Greyhawk does
> have it's own richness, it's own flavor. Heck, I remember when the whole
(BIG SNIP!)

Thought I'd jump in here...
I loved the old Greyhawk world... The original Greyhawk had a map with a brief
description of each country and its ruler.. One of my characters (my namesake Maxwell
QuickSilver) actually became the King of Celene (Lord Raltha of all Elvenkind.. whatever
that means)...
The first thing that attracted me to Birthright was that it reminded me of Greyhawk only
even more fleshed out!!!
Frankly my group still hasn't gotten comfortable with being regents, domain actions, etc.
etc... but all agree that even without that part of it... Cerilia is just a great
adventure world.... QSilver...

[nick yates]

>
>>i liked al-quadim, which IIRC was part of the realms. but frankly, the
>rest of it stank.<
>
>Which did not need the FR to be playable. And which was so good, it could
>be adated to almost any setting, even BR if you get rid of 99% of the
>demi-human NPC's. It would be perfect for Djapur I would think.

I seem to remember that it a Dragon from a while back there was an article
about the different realms in Al-Qadim and how they could be used as
Cerilian domains, with Guilds Sources and everything. Perhaps someone else
could fill me in with the exact number, the article is called Scions of the
Desert I think.

Nick

[LordSchmit]

Nick wrote:
>I seem to remember that it a Dragon from a while back there was an article
>about the different realms in Al-Qadim and how they could be used as
>Cerilian domains, with Guilds Sources and everything. Perhaps someone else
>could fill me in with the exact number, the article is called Scions of the
>Desert I think.

Yes, the "Scions of the Desert" article was in Dragon #233 on page 40. (:

[Jim Cooper]

James Ruhland wrote:
>
> >
> > After standing long opposed to the Realms I suddenly found myself with an
> > evening and three players, and the only thing on hand was one of Ed
> > Greenwood's first 2nd Edition offerings in the FR. "The Haunted Halls of
> > Eveningstar." They loved it, I loved it (again!) and discovered
> something
> > crucially important in gaming. The world is what you and your players
> make
> > of it. Now I know that is a tremendous BFO (blinding flash of the
> obvious)
> > to most everyone here, I think there's allot of jaded folks on this list.
> >
> Sniped a bunch of stuff but the above was the "meat" of T. Nutting's
> argument. Have I bought and enjoyed FR products? Yes.

Sorry to get off topic here, but does anyone else on the list not
receive certain posts? For example, I never received Tim Nutting's post
re:the above that James snipped. Why is this? BR Moderator, is there a
special command I need to send you that will allow me to receive all
posts to this list?

Darren

[James Ruhland]

I, in my ignorance, wrote:

Anything an NPC character* can do, be, or have a PC should be able to do
be, or have. And anything a PC can do be or have an NPC should be able to
do, be or have.

But forgot to append the note (I was busy ranting). I put in the little *
but forgot to add the notation:

*By character I mean any NPC which is class-based in general. I.E.
Elminster is a Mage. Thus anything Elminster can do, be, or have should be
*possible* for a PC to have, be, or do (though it might require an
exraordinary quest or deed to achieve that goal). What I do NOT mean are
Monsterous NPCs (I.E. this is not intended to say that because the Dark
Eight rule the Nine Hells (or whatever they're calling the place today) a
PC should be able to become a member of the Dark Eight and rule the Nine
Hells (or whatever they call them tommorow). Or that a PC should be able to
play a Dragon (though I guess they did try that).
But all character classes, kids, specialties (like Necromancer), skills,
proficiencies, weapons, magic items, etc. that are available to NPCs ought
to, in general, be available to PCs as well (and if you put something in a
module, especially a published module, you should know that this item is
likely to fall into the hands of the players. Saying "well, this is really
powerful, so the DM should make sure the players don't keep it", IMO
doesn't cut it. Why not just design it to be less powerful to begin with?
I.E. take my Egg of the Phoenix example: there was no reason related to the
plot that this artifact had to be nearly that powerful.
The quick & easy rejoinder, often found printed in the module (see, there
it is, right there; page 3.) is "if there's anything in here that you [the
DM] considers inapropriate to your campaign, just remove it." That's a good
policy, but IMO all too often it's just an excuse to set a bad example. A
very bad example. People, especially beginers, often take "official"
publications as their guideline of what is appropriate "see, TSR has it so
there's a magic item in every other room, so that must be the right
ammount."
The most munchkinized PCs I've ever had or seen were the result of playing
published adventures. Was the DM at fault? Was I at fault (as a player and
DM both)? Yes. But does TSR share *some* responsibility if their products
encourage this kind of thing? A few hopeful words about "game balance"
isn't enough if everything else sets the wrong example.
Shoot; this screed, like the last one, became far longer than I originally
intended. Sorry about that. This is just one of my pet peeves (I *really*
dislike it when something really wonderful is described, followed by the
statement "oh, and don't let your players have this item." (a statement
that should be followed by "we just couldn't help ourselves from being
munchkin game designers and putting it in here; please show more restraint
than we're capable of"). Gads! I'm really ranting today! I'll stop. . .(he
he; I'm like a power-mad game designer "stop me before I screed again!")

[Jason]

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Tim Nutting wrote:

> After all this, I discovered, to my chargin, that the realms weren't
> all
> that bad after all, as long as the DM did his job and shaped it to his
>
> needs.

I must admit, I have never been a big FR fan, but that's mainly because
of the way the game has taken shape, with the high magic and Elminister,
etc. But I do enjoy the rich history, and there are plenty of things
about it that grab my attention. One day in the future, I want to
challenge myself into running a FR game, but my version of the Realms:
there would be the big cities, the red wizards, etc., but the magic
would not be as prolific. It's tempting. I think one day I will do
it. It appeals to me.

Regards.


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Tim Nutting wrote:
After all this, I discovered, to my chargin, that
the realms weren't all
that bad after all, as long as the DM did his job and shaped it to
his
needs.
I must admit, I have never been a big FR fan, but that's mainly because
of the way the game has taken shape, with the high magic and Elminister,
etc.&nbsp;&nbsp; But I do enjoy the rich history, and there are plenty
of things about it that grab my attention.&nbsp; One day in the future,
I want to challenge myself into running a FR game, but my version
of the Realms: there would be the big cities, the red wizards, etc., but
the magic would not be as prolific.&nbsp; It's tempting.&nbsp; I
think one day I will do it.&nbsp; It appeals to me.

Regards.
&nbsp;

- --------------57C856CCF5891268F9118BB9--

[Jason]

jonathan.w.ingram@exgate.tek.com wrote:

> Hmm, I just finished my second adventure session in my new Birthright
> campaign and I have yet to award a magical item in an adventure.

My BR campaign has been going for 18 months, and the total magical items
the players have is:

* 2 magical swords
* magical dagger
* Bracers AC 6
* various potions that have been consumed
* various scrolls that have been used

Never once have they complained.

Regards.

[veryfastperson@juno.com]

hmm, it seems a lot has been said about this, i guess my 2 GB's could be
thrown it too. i personall, was started one FR. i liked it. mostly
because we had a young DM who just made our (brand new) character's about
13th level, and with tons of magical items. now that i look back, we had
fun, but there really wasn't a difficult challenge (again, with our young
DM, we had a bard who had a harper's pin. he used that VERY well) so the
fun factor went down after about 1 gaming sesion. so truthfully, i don't
much care for GAMING in FR. but the one thing i LOVE about FR, is reading
the books. i like R.A. Salvatore's books on Drizzt Do'Urden (hmmm, he's
only a 15th level Ranger?? even if i had a 19th level fighter, i'd never
want to cross blades with him:) and even the harper series has captured
my attention. I like READING the books, but with so many NPC's
(Elminster, Drizzt, etc) the gaming hasn't been that good. That's what
brought me to BR. i love the way it is complelty open... low # of NPC's,
low magic, good gaming. I have had very good experiences with gaming in
BR.

well, that's just my 2 GB's

Erik

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[Samuel Weiss]

>James Ruhland's wonderful rants snipped<

Actually I agree wiht his main points on all things. Especially the
shocking abundance of magic items in the early modules. Part of the problem
with them, I would say, is they were originally tournament modules, and so
needed no game balance. But James is right, run T1-4, Temple of Elemenattal
Evil, or GDQ1-7 The Giants-Underdark-Lolth Supermodule, and the PC's will
be dripping with so much magic, they could choke a dinosaur with their
surplus.
Though I did have one extremely smart player. When I ran WG4, Lost Caverns
of Tsojcanth, upon gaining the artifact at the end of the module, he
promptly turned it over to high church officials, and let them with the
side effects. Smarter than EGG and DM alike I'd say. (I was really hoping
to hose him with the side effects.)

Samwise