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john gonzalez
03-10-1998, 05:23 AM
Greetings all,

here is a question thats been bugging me, how do you explain regency
points in roleplaying terms.
for example lets take Prince Avan, and one of his vassels. In the
vassalge agreement, a tribute of 5GB and 10RP is agreed upon, now the GB
is easy,
' you pay me 10000gp every 3 months and I wont invade your grubby little
domain and kill you '
but how does a regent ask another regent to send to him something that
is an intangible link to the land and the divine spark within the
blooded. how can it be explained. is it something that happens
unconsciously between the two regents in an undeclared contest of wills?
any comments would be appreciated, thanks

wyntergryn

Daniel McSorley
03-10-1998, 05:45 AM
>here is a question thats been bugging me, how do you explain regency
>points in roleplaying terms.


>but how does a regent ask another regent to send to him something that
>is an intangible link to the land and the divine spark within the
>blooded. how can it be explained. is it something that happens
>unconsciously between the two regents in an undeclared contest of wills?
>any comments would be appreciated, thanks
>
>wyntergryn
Well, I've always kind of thought along these lines: In certain AD&D
worlds, the deities' status (demi-, lesser, greater, etc.)depends on their
numbers of worshippers, the number of people who believe them to have
authority. Since the BR regents have this divine blood, they too are
affected by the beliefs of the masses. Well, when you can push around
another regent to the point that he is going to pay you tribute, his status
will fall, and yours will rise, expressed in game terms in RP. How's that
sound?
Daniel McSorley
mcsorley.1@osu.edu
ICQ:5299865
AIM:DanMcS

Bret W. Davenport
03-10-1998, 06:08 AM
Actually, I am not sure about anyone else, but I have never used Regency
Points as part of a Tribute. It has always been strictly cash =)


> here is a question thats been bugging me, how do you explain regency
> points in roleplaying terms.
> for example lets take Prince Avan, and one of his vassels. In the
> vassalge agreement, a tribute of 5GB and 10RP is agreed upon, now the GB
> is easy,
> ' you pay me 10000gp every 3 months and I wont invade your grubby little
> domain and kill you '
> but how does a regent ask another regent to send to him something that
> is an intangible link to the land and the divine spark within the
> blooded. how can it be explained. is it something that happens
> unconsciously between the two regents in an undeclared contest of wills?
> any comments would be appreciated, thanks

Gary V. Foss
03-10-1998, 06:47 AM
john gonzalez wrote:

> Greetings all,
>
> here is a question thats been bugging me, how do you explain regency
> points in roleplaying terms.
> for example lets take Prince Avan, and one of his vassels. In the
> vassalge agreement, a tribute of 5GB and 10RP is agreed upon, now the GB
> is easy,
> ' you pay me 10000gp every 3 months and I wont invade your grubby little
> domain and kill you '
> but how does a regent ask another regent to send to him something that
> is an intangible link to the land and the divine spark within the
> blooded. how can it be explained. is it something that happens
> unconsciously between the two regents in an undeclared contest of wills?
> any comments would be appreciated, thanks

Well, this is really the crux of the matter, isn't it? Bloodlines and regency
are what makes the Birthright setting what it is. Defining RPs might be a
difficult proposition, but since I don't plan on sleeping much tonight I'll
take a stab at it. (Which could be interpreted as an act of bloodtheft....)

I should begin by mentioning that I am in no way associated with the folks who
came up with the BR setting and that these are just a few ideas that I'm
throwing out on my own. Disregard them if you like.

How can one Regent demand RPs of another regent? Well, the short answer is
"magic" but a longer explanation would probably have to do with the nature of
the tie with the land and the power of a bloodline. Essentially, what seems
intangible to the unblooded must actually be tangible to a character with a
bloodline, mustn't it? Otherwise, they would not be able to manipulate RPs.
Many of the special abilities that blooded characters receive have to do with
the senses. Alertness, Character Reading, Detect Lie, Detect Illusion,
Direction Sense, Poison Sense all are essentially just different ways of
sensing things. Let's call them senses 7-13, shall we? (I reserve the 6th
sense for those people in our mundane world who can sense Newt Gingrich's
smarmy insincerity and irrational egoism.)

Bloodlines come from the gods and in the AD&D universe part of what makes a god
powerful is the belief given to Him/Her by worshippers. Blooded characters
have some measure of this ability.

In a Birthright campaign a bloodline gives a character the ability not only to
sense RPs, but to store and manipulate them. They must form a kind of psychic
energy, transferred by the belief of the people who are ruled to the ruler.
The difference between a BR campaign and that of any other setting is that on
Cerilia, the land can channel the energy of the populace to the ruler of a
province or holding who can store it or use it. S/he can even internalize it
in order to increase the strength of his/her own bloodline and, therefore,
connection with the land.

Part of a blooded character's ability to store and manipulate RPs is the
ability to transfer them to another blooded character. They can do this in the
form of vassalage, or by supporting the actions of that character in a province
in which they also have holdings.

So to blooded characters RPs would not be as intangible as they would be to
others. They would be able to sense them, use them, or hand them off. Oh,
they wouldn't articulate their use of the power of Regency in terms of points,
but then how many weight lifters would express their strength in points or
MENSA members express their intelligence in points?

Wait. Weight lifters express the strength in the number of pounds they can
lift and MENSA members in IQ points, huh? OK, bad example.... Well, how many
weight lifters and really smart people would express their abilities in points
in Medieval times before weight machines and standardized intelligence tests?

I hope this makes some sense!

- -G

relve@Otdk.Helsinki.F
03-10-1998, 07:46 AM
> here is a question thats been bugging me, how do you explain regency
> points in roleplaying terms.

> but how does a regent ask another regent to send to him something that
> is an intangible link to the land and the divine spark within the
> blooded. how can it be explained. is it something that happens
> unconsciously between the two regents in an undeclared contest of wills?
> any comments would be appreciated, thanks

Well, I have ruled that regency is sort of "invisble mist" that
gathers around powerful people blooded or not. But its only scions
with whom the mist is able to create a channel (the connection, tie,
link whatever). When the channel has been "built" the mist starts to
pour through it. (The witdh of the channel and thus its abilty to let
the mist trhough depends on the bloodline strength). Initially,
the mist is tied to the land but after pouring through the channel it
becomes attached to the regent (forming a "personal pool").

Thus, transferring regency presumes creating yet another channel
between the regents (by investiture spell). Once created, the mist
starts to pour from one "pool" to another. The width of the channel
(i.e. how many RP's are transferred in one DT) can be altered only
with another investiture spell which means that you cannot agree
for example that you will pass half of the RP's to be collected - no
matter what's the regents "income" the constant amount of RP's pours
through the channel. (Depleting all donors RP's, if need be)

Concerning bullying the other regent into giving up his RP's looks
very much the same as with GB's: ' you'll participate in investiture
ceremony and be willing to give up a part of your power and I wont
invade your grubby little domain and kill you '

My 2RP's
Kaarel

Manfred V=?ISO-8859-1?Q?
03-10-1998, 09:50 AM
>Greetings all,
>
>here is a question thats been bugging me, how do you explain regency
>points in roleplaying terms.
>for example lets take Prince Avan, and one of his vassels. In the
>vassalge agreement, a tribute of 5GB and 10RP is agreed upon, now the GB
>is easy,
>' you pay me 10000gp every 3 months and I wont invade your grubby little
>domain and kill you '
>but how does a regent ask another regent to send to him something that
>is an intangible link to the land and the divine spark within the
>blooded. how can it be explained. is it something that happens
>unconsciously between the two regents in an undeclared contest of wills?
>any comments would be appreciated, thanks

Ok, here is a simple one:

I think, RP's are transferred by ordering the vassal to fulfill certain
deeds and tasks (compulsory service). Second the reputation and the fame
of regent increases with any vassal working for him. As a result of this,
this may cause the blood strength to increase as well.

How about this?

Manni


+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
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Ed Stark
03-10-1998, 05:10 PM
At 12:23 AM 3/10/98 -0500, you wrote:
>Greetings all,
>
>here is a question thats been bugging me, how do you explain regency
>points in roleplaying terms.
>for example lets take Prince Avan, and one of his vassels. In the
>vassalge agreement, a tribute of 5GB and 10RP is agreed upon, now the GB
>is easy,
>' you pay me 10000gp every 3 months and I wont invade your grubby little
>domain and kill you '
>but how does a regent ask another regent to send to him something that
>is an intangible link to the land and the divine spark within the
>blooded. how can it be explained. is it something that happens
>unconsciously between the two regents in an undeclared contest of wills?
>any comments would be appreciated, thanks
>
>wyntergryn

Sure, no problem. RP are a representation of popular support, personal
power, and status in the land. If you have lots of RP, you can call in
favors, enforce commands, and issue orders that you are pretty sure will be
obeyed. People under you will consider your commands important and will
drop everything to do what you want.

On the other hand, if you don't have a lot of RP (or spend them on your
actions), people don't listen as well. Even if they are loyal and love you
to death, if you don't focus your attention on an action (by spending RP),
go through the motions of getting support and setting the political wheels
in motion, you have less chance of succeeding.

This sort of influence can be transfered. You can explain it however you
wish. Let's say, for instance, that the Baron of Roesone and the Count of
Ilien come to an understanding. For whatever reason, the Baron gives the
Count 20 RP. In roleplaying terms, the Baron is coming out and saying "I
support the Count! If you owe me a favor, the Count can call it in!" If you
want to roleplay this, you can actually have the Count keep the RP separate
and, when he spends the Baron's "gift" RP, he has to be able to explain why
the Baron's influence would help on that occasion.


-- ->-- ->-- ->--@
Ed Stark
Game Designer, Wizards of the Coast/TSR Division
Asst. Brand Manager, BIRTHRIGHT/GREYHAWK/MARVEL Group
TSR Website: http://www.tsrinc.com
(soon to be http://www.tsr.com)

Bret W. Davenport
03-10-1998, 06:11 PM
> Sure, no problem. RP are a representation of popular support, personal
> power, and status in the land. If you have lots of RP, you can call in
> favors, enforce commands, and issue orders that you are pretty sure will
be
> obeyed. People under you will consider your commands important and will
> drop everything to do what you want.
>
> On the other hand, if you don't have a lot of RP (or spend them on your
> actions), people don't listen as well. Even if they are loyal and love
you
> to death, if you don't focus your attention on an action (by spending
RP),
> go through the motions of getting support and setting the political
wheels
> in motion, you have less chance of succeeding.
>
> This sort of influence can be transfered. You can explain it however you
> wish. Let's say, for instance, that the Baron of Roesone and the Count of
> Ilien come to an understanding. For whatever reason, the Baron gives the
> Count 20 RP. In roleplaying terms, the Baron is coming out and saying "I
> support the Count! If you owe me a favor, the Count can call it in!" If
you
> want to roleplay this, you can actually have the Count keep the RP
separate
> and, when he spends the Baron's "gift" RP, he has to be able to explain
why
> the Baron's influence would help on that occasion.

Funny. I was reading this and going, "that's some really good stuff."
Then I read the bottom here and go. Doh! No wonder =)

> -- ->-- ->-- ->--@
> Ed Stark
> Game Designer, Wizards of the Coast/TSR Division
> Asst. Brand Manager, BIRTHRIGHT/GREYHAWK/MARVEL Group
> TSR Website: http://www.tsrinc.com
> (soon to be http://www.tsr.com)
>

Daniel McSorley
03-10-1998, 07:07 PM
>This is a good answer and should probably be in a rulebook somewhere ;-)
>

They probably think we can figure it out by ourselves. They give us too
much credit :)

>Regarding your suggestion of keeping separate accounts for RP earned and
>"given": Doesn't this raise the ugly possibility that the Baron could
>rescind his/her earlier decree of support for the Count, thereby reclaiming
>the RP?
>
>Jonathan
>
Of course it does, as it should. People should always be able to back
out of agreements, it happens all the time. I don't know about
retroactively reclaiming the RP, that would be like saying, don't follow him
last week, you can't change it. But they should certainly be able to break
the treaty. Perhaps, if this happens, the overlord loses half, the rest go
into his private stock, and the vassal doesn't get any back, as he has
already undermined his authority.
Daniel McSorley
mcsorley.1@osu.edu
ICQ:5299865
AIM:DanMcS

CBebris
03-10-1998, 10:16 PM
In a message dated 98-03-10 00:20:16 EST, you write:

>

Think of it as using one's influence on another's behalf. Real world examples:

Political candidates stumping for each other
Calling in a favor/pulling strings
Public declaration of support for (or opposition to) a certain
issue/candidate/bill
Product endorsements
Recommendation letters

When Vernon Jordon used his influence to help Monica Lewinsky get a job at
Revlon, he was in effect giving her some of his RP. When Ronald Reagan chose
former opponent George Bush as his running mate, he gained some of Bush's RP.
When Michael Jordan appears on television in Hanes underwear, the Hanes
corporation receives some of Jordan's RP. (Jordan, in return, receives plenty
of GB in exchange.)
Revlon, Bush supporters, and underwear consumers all become willing to trust
someone unknown because someone else they *do* trust has used their influence
on the unknown's behalf.

Does that help clarify how people can exchange something intangible?

Carrie Bebris

Gary V. Foss
03-10-1998, 10:19 PM
> > Sure, no problem. RP are a representation of popular support, personal
> > power, and status in the land. If you have lots of RP, you can call in
> > favors, enforce commands, and issue orders that you are pretty sure will
> > be
> > obeyed. People under you will consider your commands important and will
> > drop everything to do what you want.
> >
> > This sort of influence can be transfered. You can explain it however you
> > wish. Let's say, for instance, that the Baron of Roesone and the Count of
> > Ilien come to an understanding. For whatever reason, the Baron gives the
> > Count 20 RP. In roleplaying terms, the Baron is coming out and saying "I
> > support the Count! If you owe me a favor, the Count can call it in!" If
> > you
> > want to roleplay this, you can actually have the Count keep the RP
> > separate
> > and, when he spends the Baron's "gift" RP, he has to be able to explain
> > why
> > the Baron's influence would help on that occasion.

Wait. Shouldn't regents be able to sense RPs? Shouldn't they be a tangible
thing that they can manipulate, rather than just an expression of "good will" on
the part of vassals and the people? The role-playing definition of RPs doesn't
seem to do much to differentiate RPs from a list of favors that could be owed to
anyone, blooded or unblooded.

On another thread we've been discussing the merits of blooded v. unblooded
regents and the general consensus seems to be that an unblooded character could
rule, but would be much less effective than a blooded one. So less effective,
in fact, that his/her rule would probably be short-lived, because s/he has no
tie to the land and cannot use RPs to the advantage of his/her rule.

>From this I gather that RPs must actually be a kind of energy that the Regent
can use at his/her discretion. RPs are the psychic forces created by the
collective good will, belief, confidence, hopes and desires of the people in a
domain which is gathered and transferred by the land to its ruler through the
strength of his/her bloodline.

If RPs are simply "favors" called in by a ruler then how could s/he internalize
them in order to strengthen his/her own bloodline? How could they be saved up?
Have you ever moved? Try calling in the favors of all the people you've helped
moved in the past. Many of them have long since forgotten that they owed you
one. Favors have a shelf life, RPs do not.

Once RPs are transferred from a vassal to a Regent, they should stay transferred
unless the Regent chooses for some reason to give them back, dies without an
heir or is killed by bloodtheft by someone using a Tighmievral weapon (at which
point they fizzle off into the atmosphere, or are absorbed and internalized by
the bloodthief.)

- -G.

Ed Stark
03-10-1998, 11:36 PM
At 10:11 AM 3/10/98 -0800, you wrote:

>Funny. I was reading this and going, "that's some really good stuff."
>Then I read the bottom here and go. Doh! No wonder =)
>
>> -- ->-- ->-- ->--@
>> Ed Stark
>> Game Designer, Wizards of the Coast/TSR Division
>> Asst. Brand Manager, BIRTHRIGHT/GREYHAWK/MARVEL Group
>> TSR Website: http://www.tsrinc.com
>> (soon to be http://www.tsr.com)

Well, thank you very much; that's very complimentary. But I bet you get a
lot of other answers off this list that are just as good (if not better).
Remember, I'm one of the guys who makes the rules vague enough that you
need to check for confirmation sometimes ;-)


-- ->-- ->-- ->--@
Ed Stark
Game Designer, Wizards of the Coast/TSR Division
Asst. Brand Manager, BIRTHRIGHT/GREYHAWK/MARVEL Group
TSR Website: http://www.tsrinc.com
(soon to be http://www.tsr.com)

Ed Stark
03-10-1998, 11:41 PM
At 02:07 PM 3/10/98 -0500, you wrote:
>>This is a good answer and should probably be in a rulebook somewhere ;-)
>>
>
> They probably think we can figure it out by ourselves. They give us too
>much credit :)
>
>>Regarding your suggestion of keeping separate accounts for RP earned and
>>"given": Doesn't this raise the ugly possibility that the Baron could
>>rescind his/her earlier decree of support for the Count, thereby reclaiming
>>the RP?
>>
>>Jonathan
>>
> Of course it does, as it should. People should always be able to back
>out of agreements, it happens all the time. I don't know about
>retroactively reclaiming the RP, that would be like saying, don't follow him
>last week, you can't change it. But they should certainly be able to break
>the treaty. Perhaps, if this happens, the overlord loses half, the rest go
>into his private stock, and the vassal doesn't get any back, as he has
>already undermined his authority.

I agree with that interpretation. The gift of the RP has already
happened--you can't take it back. You can, however, break any ongoing
agreement at any time.

-- ->-- ->-- ->--@
Ed Stark
Game Designer, Wizards of the Coast/TSR Division
Asst. Brand Manager, BIRTHRIGHT/GREYHAWK/MARVEL Group
TSR Website: http://www.tsrinc.com
(soon to be http://www.tsr.com)

Shade
03-11-1998, 12:08 AM
>When Vernon Jordon used his influence to help Monica Lewinsky get a job at
>Revlon, he was in effect giving her some of his RP. When Ronald Reagan chose
>former opponent George Bush as his running mate, he gained some of Bush's RP.
>When Michael Jordan appears on television in Hanes underwear, the Hanes
>corporation receives some of Jordan's RP. (Jordan, in return, receives plenty
>of GB in exchange.)
>Revlon, Bush supporters, and underwear consumers all become willing to trust
>someone unknown because someone else they *do* trust has used their influence
>on the unknown's behalf.

Now you sound like one of my business professors. :)

I never thought of it this way...very interesting.

Anthony K.G.Shewan
03-11-1998, 01:06 AM
Good question. Wish I had thought of it.

john gonzalez wrote:
> Date: Monday, March 09, 1998 9:23 PM
>
> Greetings all,
>
> here is a question thats been bugging me, how do you explain regency
> points in roleplaying terms.
> for example lets take Prince Avan, and one of his vassels. In the
> vassalge agreement, a tribute of 5GB and 10RP is agreed upon, now the GB
> is easy,
> ' you pay me 10000gp every 3 months and I wont invade your grubby little
> domain and kill you '
> but how does a regent ask another regent to send to him something that
> is an intangible link to the land and the divine spark within the
> blooded. how can it be explained. is it something that happens
> unconsciously between the two regents in an undeclared contest of wills?
> any comments would be appreciated, thanks
>

Anthony K.G.Shewan
03-11-1998, 01:13 AM
> >here is a question thats been bugging me, how do you explain regency
> >points in roleplaying terms.
>
>
> >but how does a regent ask another regent to send to him something that
> >is an intangible link to the land and the divine spark within the
> >blooded. how can it be explained. is it something that happens
> >unconsciously between the two regents in an undeclared contest of wills?
> >any comments would be appreciated, thanks
> >
> >wyntergryn

Daniel McSorley responds:
> Date: Monday, March 09, 1998 9:45 PM
> Well, I've always kind of thought along these lines: In certain AD&D
> worlds, the deities' status (demi-, lesser, greater, etc.)depends on
their
> numbers of worshippers, the number of people who believe them to have
> authority. Since the BR regents have this divine blood, they too are
> affected by the beliefs of the masses. Well, when you can push around
> another regent to the point that he is going to pay you tribute, his
status
> will fall, and yours will rise, expressed in game terms in RP. How's
that
> sound?

But how do you ask for the RP?
Lord: "So it's agreed upon your Oath of Vassalage that you will pay me the
sum of 2 Gold Bars in currency of the Realm, chattel or sundries and 5 RP"
Vassal: " Yes m'Lord, but what is an RP?"

Daniel McSorley
03-11-1998, 01:48 AM
>But how do you ask for the RP?
>Lord: "So it's agreed upon your Oath of Vassalage that you will pay me the
>sum of 2 Gold Bars in currency of the Realm, chattel or sundries and 5 RP"
>Vassal: " Yes m'Lord, but what is an RP?"
Heh, well, I suppose you could try that method. "I'll go down and check
the cellar and see if we have any in your size."
I think it's a result of the agreement: you don't ask for RP, you have
him swear fealty, pay tribute, and praise you on the evening news, and the
authority shifts as the people's opinions do. How's that. So, a few RP
would be some minor concessions, and to get 20 or so RP from somebody, he
has to be saying, "I follow this guy in everything, all of you should, too."
RP is just our way of expressing it in game terms.
Daniel McSorley
mcsorley.1@osu.edu
ICQ:5299865
AIM:DanMcS

Anthony K.G.Shewan
03-11-1998, 05:29 AM
> >But how do you ask for the RP?
> >Lord: "So it's agreed upon your Oath of Vassalage that you will pay me
the
> >sum of 2 Gold Bars in currency of the Realm, chattel or sundries and 5
RP"
> >Vassal: " Yes m'Lord, but what is an RP?"
> Heh, well, I suppose you could try that method. "I'll go down and
check
> the cellar and see if we have any in your size."
> I think it's a result of the agreement: you don't ask for RP, you
have
> him swear fealty, pay tribute, and praise you on the evening news, and
the
> authority shifts as the people's opinions do. How's that. So, a few RP
> would be some minor concessions, and to get 20 or so RP from somebody, he
> has to be saying, "I follow this guy in everything, all of you should,
too."
> RP is just our way of expressing it in game terms.
> Daniel McSorley
- ---------------------------
So it's more of game mechanism than a role-play mechanism?

Jonathan Picklesimer
03-11-1998, 07:09 AM
On Tue, 10 Mar 1998, john gonzalez wrote:

> Greetings all,
>
> here is a question thats been bugging me, how do you explain regency
> points in roleplaying terms.

> but how does a regent ask another regent to send to him something that
> is an intangible link to the land and the divine spark within the
> blooded. how can it be explained. is it something that happens

I think that there are several ways to play it. The actual transferral of
RP could come as the vassal publicly making announcements that indicate
gratitude and thanks to the Duke of Avanil for his protection. It could
be deference to Avan's ambassador's in diplomatic decisions, it could be
out right subjugation of the vassal in front of his own people to
demonstrate that he is subject to the will of Avan. Thus when a vassal
breaks an agreement, the lord would immediately know due to the lack of
propoganda and/or cooperation stemming from the vassal, not to mention the
outright rebellion in the streets that the former vassal would have to
inspire against his/her former lord in order to rally the people away from
the lord and to his own banner. If you have spent years lifting up the
Duke as a mighty and wonderful man to whom the contry owes much, the
people are not going to stop backing their protector over night.

Just my 2 GBs
jsp

Christopher G. Kira
03-11-1998, 09:35 AM
> > >But how do you ask for the RP?
> > RP is just our way of expressing it in game terms.
> > Daniel McSorley
> ---------------------------
> So it's more of game mechanism than a role-play mechanism?

I've always looked at RP as a sort of prestige thing.. like when the
President of a country gives a speech. A president ideally only has so
much time to give speeches, lend support to certain platforms, etc. His
time is limited, much like RP. RP in my opinion is sort of like those
speeches. Sometime you don't need to give a speech to lend support
(obviously).. which leads to the nebulous ideaof RP. The way of lending
support (I'll speak to others on your behalf, I'll lend my name to you
when you seek support from others, etc.) that is limited not only by time,
but by resources available. Obviously, a lesser ruler's prestige means
less to another ruler than the support of one who is more powerful (hence
differences in RP).

RP helps to "quantify" the prestige.

P.S. Obviously, the President giving a speech analogy was meant to
illustrate. In no way do I imply that that is the only way a person lends
RP to others.

CK

Neil Barnes
03-11-1998, 12:18 PM
On Tue, 10 Mar 1998, Anthony K.G.Shewan wrote:
>
> But how do you ask for the RP?
> Lord: "So it's agreed upon your Oath of Vassalage that you will pay me the
> sum of 2 Gold Bars in currency of the Realm, chattel or sundries and 5 RP"
> Vassal: " Yes m'Lord, but what is an RP?"

I just assume that it's a bit of a handwave - players refer to RPs, to
keep the game simple while characters horsetrade more specific favours
or oaths of support. I don't allow RPs to be traded except through an
Oath of Vassalage, and the strength of the oath would determine how many
RPs are transferred.

The nice thing about this system is that characters never refer to RPS
in game, and it hinders the ability of pcs to cooperate.

neil

relve@Otdk.Helsinki.F
03-11-1998, 06:49 PM
I fully agree with Gary. RP's must be more "tangible" otherwise the
"domain rules" would seem illogical. For example: RP's can be saved
and used even 100 years later in another part of Cerilia. If the
Regency reflected only a person's popularity or influence in certain
society, it would be impossible to do so.

Kaarel

> Wait. Shouldn't regents be able to sense RPs? Shouldn't they be a tangible
> thing that they can manipulate, rather than just an expression of "good will" on
> the part of vassals and the people? The role-playing definition of RPs doesn't
> seem to do much to differentiate RPs from a list of favors that could be owed to
> anyone, blooded or unblooded.
>
> On another thread we've been discussing the merits of blooded v. unblooded
> regents and the general consensus seems to be that an unblooded character could
> rule, but would be much less effective than a blooded one. So less effective,
> in fact, that his/her rule would probably be short-lived, because s/he has no
> tie to the land and cannot use RPs to the advantage of his/her rule.
>
> >From this I gather that RPs must actually be a kind of energy that the Regent
> can use at his/her discretion. RPs are the psychic forces created by the
> collective good will, belief, confidence, hopes and desires of the people in a
> domain which is gathered and transferred by the land to its ruler through the
> strength of his/her bloodline.
>
> If RPs are simply "favors" called in by a ruler then how could s/he internalize
> them in order to strengthen his/her own bloodline? How could they be saved up?
> Have you ever moved? Try calling in the favors of all the people you've helped
> moved in the past. Many of them have long since forgotten that they owed you
> one. Favors have a shelf life, RPs do not.
>
> Once RPs are transferred from a vassal to a Regent, they should stay transferred
> unless the Regent chooses for some reason to give them back, dies without an
> heir or is killed by bloodtheft by someone using a Tighmievral weapon (at which
> point they fizzle off into the atmosphere, or are absorbed and internalized by
> the bloodthief.)
>
> -G.
>
>
> ************************************************** *************************
> > 'unsubscribe birthright' as the body of the message.
>

Gary V. Foss
03-11-1998, 10:37 PM
relve@Otdk.Helsinki.FI wrote:

> I fully agree with Gary. RP's must be more "tangible" otherwise the
> "domain rules" would seem illogical. For example: RP's can be saved
> and used even 100 years later in another part of Cerilia. If the
> Regency reflected only a person's popularity or influence in certain
> society, it would be impossible to do so.
>
> Kaarel

Thank God, I thought no one was listening for a minute....

To continue the argument: I just bought the Tuarhieval sourcebook in which we are
presented with the transfer of bloodline from Fhileraene to Savane, a highly unpopular
move. Quite a lot of the information details how difficult it will be for Savane to
deal with her lack of support from the royal houses, elves, etc. of her realm.

Yet she has all of Fileraene's RPs. They didn't vanish when the people learned of the
transfer of power. She gets to keep them. Presumably she gets to transfer them when
her daughter comes of age or Fileraene returns. If RPs were just favors, oaths and
promises then they would pretty much have vanished when Savane became ruler of the
realm, right? They didn't because RPs are quantifiable and tangible to a regent with
a bloodline.

- -G.

prtr02@scorpion.nspco.co
03-11-1998, 11:15 PM
- ----- Begin Included Message -----
>
> But how do you ask for the RP?
> Lord: "So it's agreed upon your Oath of Vassalage that you will pay me the
> sum of 2 Gold Bars in currency of the Realm, chattel or sundries and 5 RP"
> Vassal: " Yes m'Lord, but what is an RP?"

I just assume that it's a bit of a handwave - players refer to RPs, to
keep the game simple while characters horsetrade more specific favours
or oaths of support. I don't allow RPs to be traded except through an
Oath of Vassalage, and the strength of the oath would determine how many
RPs are transferred.

The nice thing about this system is that characters never refer to RPS
in game, and it hinders the ability of pcs to cooperate.

neil

- ----- End Included Message -----

IMO asking "What's an RP?" is a lot like asking "What's an EP?" Experience
points and Regency points are a game mechanic for tracking an intangible asset.

I regard RP mostly as influence/dedication/reputation/knowledge with a little
mysticism thrown in. Much like EP, intangible Regency has a very real effect
on the tangible world. Characters with lots of EP hack things up better (or lobspells better or whatever...). Character with lots of RP get things done.
They're wise, respected rulers with the knowledge and dedication to complete
challenging tasks.

Asking for RP in roleplaying terms could take many forms. A demand for military
service, speeches/stumping, appointment to a certain office, rights to
administer certain types of justice (big in the RW), an agreement to work in
the counting house a certain number of hours each week, etc etc.

It would aid in roleplaying if we could develop guidelines as to how many RP
(or what % RP) certain actions are worth.

Giving a speech at the Laborers Guild Auxilary lunch meeting: 1 RP
Becoming the personal herald and body servent of one's leige: a high % of RP
Being named Marshal of Anuire:50 RP

Note these could work in either direction. Working as a herald/bodyservant
could demand a large percentage of one's attention and effort, but if the liege
chooses the herald could speak with the authority of the lord, letting the lord
transfer RPs to this loyal and trusted retainer.

Magic throws a kink in this nice Randaxian vision. Since it has no counterpart
in the RW, it's much harder to define how a wizard regent can use the power of
the land to cast realm magic. This is why, dispite what I said above, I'm still
somewhat undecided as to the tangibility of RP. Wizards get their RP directly
from a mystical connection to the land, not people. Perhaps one could say the
wizards RP stem more from the knowledge part of regency as opposed to the
influence portion.

Randax

Gary V. Foss
03-12-1998, 01:55 AM
Randall W. Porter@6550 wrote:

> Magic throws a kink in this nice Randaxian vision. Since it has no counterpart
> in the RW, it's much harder to define how a wizard regent can use the power of
> the land to cast realm magic. This is why, dispite what I said above, I'm still
> somewhat undecided as to the tangibility of RP. Wizards get their RP directly
> from a mystical connection to the land, not people. Perhaps one could say the
> wizards RP stem more from the knowledge part of regency as opposed to the
> influence portion.

Well, the operative power in the collection of RPs is the land itself. The RPs collected by mages would be a more direct transferal of power rather than one
based upon a collection of energy from the population. The source (pun, pun) of that energy might be a little different, but the end effect as far as the
blooded Regent is concerned is the same.

As for how it would be transferred: We needn't worry about RPs being like some nebulous cloud hovering around a Regent's head. It's a form of psychic
energy. The points could be transferred just by a few moments of concentration or as part of a ritual obeisance that takes place every domain turn. It can
be as simple or complex as DMs/players like. The transfer could take the form of a speech or favor, as other people have suggested, if one feels the need to
role-play it out. My point is that there has to be some sort of non-corporeal aspect to it that actually supercedes all that.

- -G.

Anthony K.G.Shewan
03-12-1998, 08:53 PM
An excellent explanation! I like this a lot and has gone a long way to
helping clear up some of my confusion on the subject. However where you
state "Shouldn't regents be able to sense RPs? " I hope you mean sense
their own RP and not other Regents'.

Regards
Anthony

> > Wait. Shouldn't regents be able to sense RPs? Shouldn't they be a
tangible
> > thing that they can manipulate, rather than just an expression of "good
will" on
> > the part of vassals and the people? The role-playing definition of RPs
doesn't
> > seem to do much to differentiate RPs from a list of favors that could
be owed to
> > anyone, blooded or unblooded.
> >
> > On another thread we've been discussing the merits of blooded v.
unblooded
> > regents and the general consensus seems to be that an unblooded
character could
> > rule, but would be much less effective than a blooded one. So less
effective,
> > in fact, that his/her rule would probably be short-lived, because s/he
has no
> > tie to the land and cannot use RPs to the advantage of his/her rule.
> >
> > >From this I gather that RPs must actually be a kind of energy that the
Regent
> > can use at his/her discretion. RPs are the psychic forces created by
the
> > collective good will, belief, confidence, hopes and desires of the
people in a
> > domain which is gathered and transferred by the land to its ruler
through the
> > strength of his/her bloodline.
> >
> > If RPs are simply "favors" called in by a ruler then how could s/he
internalize
> > them in order to strengthen his/her own bloodline? How could they be
saved up?
> > Have you ever moved? Try calling in the favors of all the people
you've helped
> > moved in the past. Many of them have long since forgotten that they
owed you
> > one. Favors have a shelf life, RPs do not.
> >
> > Once RPs are transferred from a vassal to a Regent, they should stay
transferred
> > unless the Regent chooses for some reason to give them back, dies
without an
> > heir or is killed by bloodtheft by someone using a Tighmievral weapon
(at which
> > point they fizzle off into the atmosphere, or are absorbed and
internalized by
> > the bloodthief.)
> >
> > -G.
> >
> >
> >> > To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the
line
> > 'unsubscribe birthright' as the body of the message.
> >
>> To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the
line
> 'unsubscribe birthright' as the body of the message.

Anthony K.G.Shewan
03-12-1998, 09:01 PM
Another excellent explanation! Thank you

Regards
Anthony

- ----------
> From: Randall W. Porter@6550
> To: birthright@MPGN.COM
> Subject: Re: [BIRTHRIGHT] - Birthright: Regency points
> Date: Wednesday, March 11, 1998 3:15 PM
>
> IMO asking "What's an RP?" is a lot like asking "What's an EP?"
Experience
> points and Regency points are a game mechanic for tracking an intangible
asset.
>
> I regard RP mostly as influence/dedication/reputation/knowledge with a
little
> mysticism thrown in. Much like EP, intangible Regency has a very real
effect
> on the tangible world. Characters with lots of EP hack things up better
(or lobspells better or whatever...). Character with lots of RP get things
done.
> They're wise, respected rulers with the knowledge and dedication to
complete
> challenging tasks.
>
> Asking for RP in roleplaying terms could take many forms. A demand for
military
> service, speeches/stumping, appointment to a certain office, rights to
> administer certain types of justice (big in the RW), an agreement to work
in
> the counting house a certain number of hours each week, etc etc.
>
> It would aid in roleplaying if we could develop guidelines as to how many
RP
> (or what % RP) certain actions are worth.
>
> Giving a speech at the Laborers Guild Auxilary lunch meeting: 1 RP
> Becoming the personal herald and body servent of one's leige: a high % of
RP
> Being named Marshal of Anuire:50 RP
>
> Note these could work in either direction. Working as a
herald/bodyservant
> could demand a large percentage of one's attention and effort, but if the
liege
> chooses the herald could speak with the authority of the lord, letting
the lord
> transfer RPs to this loyal and trusted retainer.
>
> Magic throws a kink in this nice Randaxian vision. Since it has no
counterpart
> in the RW, it's much harder to define how a wizard regent can use the
power of
> the land to cast realm magic. This is why, dispite what I said above,
I'm still
> somewhat undecided as to the tangibility of RP. Wizards get their RP
directly
> from a mystical connection to the land, not people. Perhaps one could
say the
> wizards RP stem more from the knowledge part of regency as opposed to the

> influence portion.
>
> Randax
>> To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the
line
> 'unsubscribe birthright' as the body of the message.

Gary V. Foss
03-13-1998, 07:23 AM
Anthony K.G.Shewan wrote:

> An excellent explanation! I like this a lot and has gone a long way to
> helping clear up some of my confusion on the subject. However where you
> state "Shouldn't regents be able to sense RPs? " I hope you mean sense
> their own RP and not other Regents'.

Yes, that's what I mean. Though I suppose it wouldn't be that ridiculous for
blooded characters to be able to sense a lot of power in the room when a
blooded character walked in. I think that would have to be a spell or seperate
blood ability, though. I'm not so sure a character without Divine Aura should
give off an aura just because of the accumulation of RPs.

- -G.