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Brandon Quina
03-09-1998, 01:20 PM
> 4) Unless you're dealing with everyone's favorite, Elves, when
> the Province pop level rises (from (4) to (5), say), the Source will
> decline in proportion (from (1) to (0) in this case).

There not my favorite. The average cerilian elf dosnt have much
going for him. First, most of his homeland has been taken from him
by the humans. Second, they cant invest provinces...

The only way for them to take over a new province is to invade,
whittle down the province to a level 0 province. Then rule it back
up (with elves). That takes along time. Is it any wonder why the
elves were defeated???

Elven Wizard Regents can cast realm spells, and will generally have
lots of RP from source holdings. However, considering their problems
with taking over provinces--- that only just barly makes up for it.


Elves are cool, but im still a human person myself...



- --
(lore@tmgbbs.com) \|/// Zzzzzzzzzzzz
Brandon Lance Quina (- -)
ICQ Number: 6809944 ---ooO(_)Ooo---

David Sean Brown
03-09-1998, 02:49 PM
Don't necessarily agree with this...elves can invest provinces, however,
they don't have any preists of their own, meaning they have to get a
priest of another race to do it for them. If they want to haev a
"pristine" elven realm, they'd have to do some purging afterwards :)

Sean


> There not my favorite. The average cerilian elf dosnt have much
> going for him. First, most of his homeland has been taken from him
> by the humans. Second, they cant invest provinces...

James Ruhland
03-09-1998, 04:58 PM
Well, one of the two people who correctly answered my Quote from "The Good,
the Bad, and the Ugly" asked for his prize to be that I say something
positive about Elves. Here's my chance.
>
> There not my favorite. The average cerilian elf dosnt have much
> going for him. First, most of his homeland has been taken from him
> by the humans. Second, they cant invest provinces...
>
Elves can invest Provinces (and other Holdings) using Elven Investiture.
Basically it's Investiture without Priests, but see the Book of Priestcraft
for details.

>
> Elven Wizard Regents can cast realm spells, and will generally have
> lots of RP from source holdings. However, considering their problems
> with taking over provinces--- that only just barly makes up for it.
>
With these RPs, I thee wed. . .no, wait; with all the RPs they get, they
should be able to handily defeat most invaders. Plus, an Elven regent that
secures the loyalty of a bunch of Elven Wizards should not only be able to
crush invasions, but if you really go for agressive imperialisms,
spellcasters, including Wizards, are going to be a great help. . .
>
> Elves are cool, but im still a human person myself...
>
Last time I checked, I was human, too. But Elves, especially BR elves,
have a number of advantages. Pound for pound they're the most powerful
player race in Birthright. They've got immortality & immunities to a bunch
of junk. One could run an elven fighter/wizard/thief and not have to
cooperate with anyone else: get all the law, guilds, and sources for
yourself (and of course keep thouse nasty human priests from sullying your
realm). You can recruit Wizard Lts like their's no tomorrow, because they
don't have to be blooded.
Because of their various advantages, and lack of real disadvantages (ok,
the level limits exist: but in BR how much higher can you reasonably expect
to go? Isn't being 15th-18th level as a Wizard enough in BR for any race?
oh, where was I? oh yah:) because of their various advantages, elves make
the perfect race for munchkin players. How do I know? Over time the vast
majority of my own characters have been elven--and I'm a munch of the 1st
order (what got me to stop playing Elves? the discovery of the wonders of
Dual-classing. . .munchkinism delayed).
So my comments regarding Elves are mainly anti-munchkin comments ("two
kinds of people; thouse who believe Elves live under some restrictions, and
thouse who believe they are akin to Living Gods and can do anything.") In
other words, a form of self-loathing.
With all the advantages Elves have, I just see no need to give them more
(like the ability of any elf to use Realm Spells, irregardless of whether
they have the Bloodline, and thus the Regency Points, needed to cast it).
Elves in BR are ostensibly a race facing extinction. Now, let me go off and
run Lluabraight; I'll keep the Regent that TSR gave me; Llaeddra. Now we'll
see who's facing extinction . . .

bloebick@juno.com (Benja
03-09-1998, 09:06 PM
On Mon, 9 Mar 1998 10:49:30 -0400 (AST) David Sean Brown
writes:
>Don't necessarily agree with this...elves can invest provinces,
>however,
>they don't have any preists of their own, meaning they have to get a
>priest of another race to do it for them. If they want to haev a
>"pristine" elven realm, they'd have to do some purging afterwards :)
>
>Sean
>

Uhm, no. The BoP says elves can invest whenever they want to, without
the investiture spell. It has to do with their connection to the land.
They occupy the land and simply decide "This is mine" and presto! It is.
Something like that, anyways. They don't need priests to invest.

Benjamin

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David Sean Brown
03-10-1998, 01:23 AM
I did know about the "Elven Investiture" but was tossing out just another
idea :)

Sean


>
> Uhm, no. The BoP says elves can invest whenever they want to, without
> the investiture spell. It has to do with their connection to the land.
> They occupy the land and simply decide "This is mine" and presto! It is.
> Something like that, anyways. They don't need priests to invest.
>
> Benjamin
>
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> You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
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> Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]
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ANOLESEN
03-11-1998, 01:39 AM
elves are cool, just less so in Birthright

wooz
03-11-1998, 04:35 PM
At 08:39 PM 3/10/98 EST, you wrote:
>
>elves are cool, just less so in Birthright
>************************************************** *************************

I must disagree. I have never liked the fact that TSR had their elves as
short little runts. The only thing to distinguish a short elf and a tall
halfling was % body fat. I feel that the Cerilian Elves kick some serious
butt. Even with losing their infravision, they are still cool.

Sorry, but had throw my hat into the circle.



Wooz




"quis custodiet ipsos custodes?"

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acropolis/3292/ wooz@rli-net.net

Ed Stark
03-11-1998, 05:06 PM
At 10:35 AM 3/11/98 -0600, you wrote:
>At 08:39 PM 3/10/98 EST, you wrote:
>>
>>elves are cool, just less so in Birthright
>>************************************************** *************************
>
> I must disagree. I have never liked the fact that TSR had their elves as
>short little runts. The only thing to distinguish a short elf and a tall
>halfling was % body fat. I feel that the Cerilian Elves kick some serious
>butt. Even with losing their infravision, they are still cool.
>
> Sorry, but had throw my hat into the circle.
>
>
>
> Wooz
>
>
Being a Tolkien fan before I was a roleplayer (or, actually, before there
really was roleplaying), I tend to agree--that I like Cerilian elves better
than other AD&D elves. I don't really have any problems with other AD&D
elves; they just don't fit the vision I developed first. I suppose if I'd
read and played AD&D before reading Tolkien, I might've lurched at the
sight of 6-ft tall immortal elves.



Ed Stark
Game Designer, Wizards of the Coast/TSR Division
Asst. Brand Manager
TSR Website: http://www.tsrinc.com
also: http://www.tsr.com

wooz
03-11-1998, 05:28 PM
>>
>Being a Tolkien fan before I was a roleplayer (or, actually, before there
>really was roleplaying), I tend to agree--that I like Cerilian elves better
>than other AD&D elves. I don't really have any problems with other AD&D
>elves; they just don't fit the vision I developed first. I suppose if I'd
>read and played AD&D before reading Tolkien, I might've lurched at the
>sight of 6-ft tall immortal elves.

That's exactly why I like the taller elves better, while I may not have
started reading Tolkeing until after D&D had been released, it wasn't THAT
much after. I'm glad to hear that someone at TSR agrees.

Wooz




"quis custodiet ipsos custodes?"

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acropolis/3292/ wooz@rli-net.net

Brandon Quina
03-11-1998, 05:29 PM
> Uhm, no. The BoP says elves can invest whenever they want to, without
> the investiture spell. It has to do with their connection to the
> land. They occupy the land and simply decide "This is mine" and
> presto! It is. Something like that, anyways. They don't need priests
> to invest.

Its not in the main book, hence its optional. Im not using it, cause
I find it stupid. The priestly investiture is more than a tie to the
land. Its the gods saying 'you may rule'.

The elves have a big connection to the land, as a whole. Thats fine.
I take that to mean that if they can manage to get enough elves in the
land, then they get possession of the province. Thus, if they
get the population down to 0, then rule it up to atleast 1 with elves
its now their province.

I added a 'ghellie Sidhe' action to my game. 15+ to lower the
population by one code, provided the province is elven occupied
(ie. by military units).

Thankfully, its never used. Elves perfer diplomacy saying "Please,
leave this land." than rampant bloodshed.




- --
(lore@tmgbbs.com) \|/// Zzzzzzzzzzzz
Brandon Lance Quina (- -)
ICQ Number: 6809944 ---ooO(_)Ooo---

relve@Otdk.Helsinki.F
03-11-1998, 06:37 PM
> > Uhm, no. The BoP says elves can invest whenever they want to,
without
> > the investiture spell. It has to do with their connection to the
> > land. They occupy the land and simply decide "This is mine" and
> > presto! It is. Something like that, anyways. They don't need priests
> > to invest.
>
> Its not in the main book, hence its optional. Im not using it, cause
> I find it stupid. The priestly investiture is more than a tie to the
> land. Its the gods saying 'you may rule'.

I am afraid, I have to disagree. It would upset the game
balance unless you included a house rule that makes transferring
elven domains more feasible for elves (like elven shamans in Netbook)
Otherwise it would become really difficult for elves to hold their
domains together (in long run, of course, and keeping in mind that
"manipulating" with RP's (i.e. giving them for somene else) is rather
important in "poor" (in terms of GB's collected) elven domains.

BTW, the BoP also allows guilds and source holdings to be transferred
without the investiture spell. (I personnaly do not like and use this
rule.)

Kaarel

Pinochet
03-11-1998, 08:23 PM
- -----Original Message-----
From: wooz
To: birthright@MPGN.COM
Date: Wednesday, March 11, 1998 3:39 AM
Subject: Re: [BIRTHRIGHT] - Everybodys Favorte: Elves


> That's exactly why I like the taller elves better, while I may not have
>started reading Tolkeing until after D&D had been released, it wasn't THAT
>much after. I'm glad to hear that someone at TSR agrees.


Well, if it makes you feel any better, AFAIK, the only short elves are in
the
PHB, the ones in DS tall, FR tall, DL tall(or at least not short), BR,
already
covered......now what I REALLY hate in the PHB is the way elves seems to
go to a land far across the oceans or something instead of die of old age..
UGGH!!! Immortal, ok, long-lived ok, but this? NO!NO!NO!NO!

James Ruhland
03-11-1998, 08:29 PM
>
> BTW, the BoP also allows guilds and source holdings to be transferred
> without the investiture spell. (I personnaly do not like and use this
> rule.)
>
N.B. don't forget that in all cases (Elven Investiture, Guild & Source
Investiture), an Investiture Action is still needed. The only thing that is
dispensed with is the priest/temple ceremony & Investiture spell. IMO, this
is reasonable.

LordSchmit
03-11-1998, 10:36 PM
>now what I REALLY hate in the PHB is the way elves seems to
>go to a land far across the oceans or something instead of die of old age..
>UGGH!!! Immortal, ok, long-lived ok, but this? NO!NO!NO!NO!

Don't the FR elves go off to Evermeet or where ever? (I know very little about
the Realms, but I read that somewhere). FR seems to be the only AD&D published
world that goes by that "go away to a far off island instead of dying" thing
the PHB says elves do.

Samuel Weiss
03-11-1998, 10:42 PM
>now what I REALLY hate in the PHB is the way elves seems to
go to a land far across the oceans or something instead of die of old age..
UGGH!!! Immortal, ok, long-lived ok, but this? NO!NO!NO!NO!<

We went over this very topic on Greytalk awhile back. And most everyone
there pretty much felt this was an evil influence from the FR that all good
AD&Ders should ignore completely. I was rather shocked they didn't do this
nonsense in BR quite frankly. And very, very happy. So if you do have
mortal elves in your game, dig out an old DMG and the age tables for elves
therein.

Samwise

James Ruhland
03-12-1998, 01:19 AM
Agreed. Actually, this is a nefarious Tolkien influence, not so much a FR
influence, this "we don't die, we just sail off to an unknown
continent/plane". IMO, Cerilian Imortality & the old DMG age tables are
sooo much more preferable. (I'm saying, in my long winded way, that I agree
with you).
>
> We went over this very topic on Greytalk awhile back. And most everyone
> there pretty much felt this was an evil influence from the FR that all
good
> AD&Ders should ignore completely. I was rather shocked they didn't do
this
> nonsense in BR quite frankly. And very, very happy. So if you do have
> mortal elves in your game, dig out an old DMG and the age tables for
elves
> therein.

Gary V. Foss
03-12-1998, 02:06 AM
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James Ruhland wrote:

> Agreed. Actually, this is a nefarious Tolkien influence, not so much a FR
> influence, this "we don't die, we just sail off to an unknown
> continent/plane". IMO, Cerilian Imortality & the old DMG age tables are
> sooo much more preferable. (I'm saying, in my long winded way, that I agree
> with you).
> >
> > We went over this very topic on Greytalk awhile back. And most everyone
> > there pretty much felt this was an evil influence from the FR that all
> good
> > AD&Ders should ignore completely. I was rather shocked they didn't do
> this
> > nonsense in BR quite frankly. And very, very happy. So if you do have
> > mortal elves in your game, dig out an old DMG and the age tables for
> elves
> > therein.

The fact that the beginning of this thread coincides with Aaron Spelling's bid
to get The New Loveboat on the air seems proof that there is some strange
karmic relationship between high art, high elves and high ratings....

Anyway, as far as elves sailing off into the West is concerned. I think
Tolkien meant is as more of a retirement kind of concept rather than as a form
of death. Gandalf, Bilbo and Frodo get to go along too, remember? So it can't
be just for elves. Maybe it was just a symbolic way of saying "I don't want to
write about these characters anymore, but I don't have the heart to snuff them,
so I'm going to send them on a long cruise."

It's kind of a cop-out that works much more effectively to end a story than it
does in a RPG.

- -G.

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James Ruhland wrote:
Agreed. Actually, this is a nefarious Tolkien influence,
not so much a FR
influence, this "we don't die, we just sail off to an unknown
continent/plane". IMO, Cerilian Imortality &amp; the old DMG age tables
are
sooo much more preferable. (I'm saying, in my long winded way, that
I agree
with you).
>
> We went over this very topic on Greytalk awhile back. And most everyone
> there pretty much felt this was an evil influence from the FR that
all
good
> AD&amp;Ders should ignore completely. I was rather shocked they didn't
do
this
> nonsense in BR quite frankly. And very, very happy. So if you do
have
> mortal elves in your game, dig out an old DMG and the age tables
for
elves
> therein.
The fact that the beginning of this thread coincides with Aaron Spelling's
bid to get The New Loveboat on the air seems proof that there is
some strange karmic relationship between high art, high elves and high
ratings....

Anyway, as far as elves sailing off into the West is concerned.&nbsp;
I think Tolkien meant is as more of a retirement kind of concept rather
than as a form of death.&nbsp; Gandalf, Bilbo and Frodo get to go along
too, remember?&nbsp; So it can't be just for elves.&nbsp; Maybe it was
just a symbolic way of saying "I don't want to write about these characters
anymore, but I don't have the heart to snuff them, so I'm going to send
them on a long cruise."

It's kind of a cop-out that works much more effectively to end a story
than it does in a RPG.

-G.

- --------------A54BF425C03EDB591C412CD5--

rad smith
03-12-1998, 11:44 AM
On Wed, 11 Mar 1998, Brandon Quina wrote:

> I added a 'ghellie Sidhe' action to my game. 15+ to lower the
> population by one code, provided the province is elven occupied
> (ie. by military units).
>
> Thankfully, its never used. Elves perfer diplomacy saying "Please,
> leave this land." than rampant bloodshed.

actually, i would like to see the difference between elven and human
psychology and culture emphasised. i don't see why a completely alien
culture should find itself bound by human ethical values.

i'd prefer elves to be scary and mysterious. and preferably NPCs.

this seems to be partially the whitewolf effect: the moment you put
anything mysterious in a game system people want either to play it, or to
have it quantified within the rule system. the end result of which you
have a gaming world devoid of mystery.



- --
rad

i've got my hand in your head
i've got my hand in your head
and i'm pulling out all of your mind

Brandon Quina
03-12-1998, 12:55 PM
> I am afraid, I have to disagree. It would upset the game
> balance unless you included a house rule that makes transferring
> elven domains more feasible for elves (like elven shamans in Netbook)

I give them a way to transfer domains to and from one another. They
can 'step down' and give someone else their domain. Basically, most
'lesser investiture' is allowed. They just cant actually break the
investiture of a blooded human regent. That requires a priestly
affirmation-- and they dont follow gods. They also cant form
vassalage agreements. I decided that was a 'human' thing, and that
elves have no inclination to do so-- thus, they havnt bothered
to develop that 'ability' as it were.

Basically, I *liked* the fact that elves didnt have priests and thus
couldnt invest provinces. They have enough other advantages in terms
of the domain turn (source rating not being affected by provincal,
mainly) that it dosnt really weaken them that much.

I dont see why when the elves have an advantage thats fine, but when
they have something that makes them weaker everybodys like "Ohhh no,
not the elves."

If I was going to let elves invest provinces like a human (well, not
like a human. They wouldnt have priests) I wouldnt give them their
source holdings staying level. I wouldnt have any problem with elven
society relying on level 1 and 2 provinces.

> Otherwise it would become really difficult for elves to hold their
> domains together (in long run, of course, and keeping in mind that
> "manipulating" with RP's (i.e. giving them for somene else) is rather
> important in "poor" (in terms of GB's collected) elven domains.

Thats the shakes. If the elves let someone come in and invest one
of their provinces, there screwed. Ive never had this happen, as the
elves defend their borders fanatically.

It would probally be easier to take back the provinces during its
first couple turns after 'investing' it though.



- --
(lore@tmgbbs.com) \|/// Zzzzzzzzzzzz
Brandon Lance Quina (- -)
ICQ Number: 6809944 ---ooO(_)Ooo---

Neil Barnes
03-12-1998, 03:03 PM
On Wed, 11 Mar 1998, Gary V. Foss wrote:
> Maybe it was just a symbolic way of saying "I don't want to write about
> these characters anymore, but I don't have the heart to snuff them,
> so I'm going to send them on a long cruise."
>
> It's kind of a cop-out that works much more effectively to end a story than it
> does in a RPG.

My characters just got married instead...

In tLoTR the characters who cross the sea to Tol Eressa are those with a
touch of the divine. It's a substitute heaven for those who once having
lost their innocence can never regain it. In the forties there wasn't
this pressure to continue reusing popular characters that there is
now...

neil

E Gray
03-12-1998, 08:36 PM
- -----Original Message-----
From: LordSchmit
To: birthright@MPGN.COM
Date: Wednesday, March 11, 1998 8:49 AM
Subject: Re: [BIRTHRIGHT] - Everybodys Favorte: Elves


>>now what I REALLY hate in the PHB is the way elves seems to
>>go to a land far across the oceans or something instead of die of old
age..
>>UGGH!!! Immortal, ok, long-lived ok, but this? NO!NO!NO!NO!
>
>Don't the FR elves go off to Evermeet or where ever? (I know very little
about
>the Realms, but I read that somewhere).

Yes, they can go there, but the elves of the FR didn't always, in fact a lot
probably did die of old age....can't recall exactly when Evermeet was
settled, but it wasn't that recent....in any case Tolkein is the one to
blame
not Greenwood.

> FR seems to be the only AD&D published
>world that goes by that "go away to a far off island instead of dying"
thing
>the PHB says elves do.


But that's more of a get away from the horrible humans and live the rest of
our lives in peace thing.

E Gray
03-12-1998, 08:39 PM
- -----Original Message-----
From: Samuel Weiss
To: birthright@MPGN.COM
Date: Wednesday, March 11, 1998 9:00 AM
Subject: Re: [BIRTHRIGHT] - Everybodys Favorte: Elves


>>now what I REALLY hate in the PHB is the way elves seems to
>go to a land far across the oceans or something instead of die of old age..
>UGGH!!! Immortal, ok, long-lived ok, but this? NO!NO!NO!NO!<


>We went over this very topic on Greytalk awhile back. And most everyone
>there pretty much felt this was an evil influence from the FR that all good
>AD&Ders should ignore completely

The FR? Hmm, Yes, the Elven culture is going away to Evermeet but
I think elves still die of old age normally, they're just trying to escape
humanity and live out their years in peace......besides Tolkein is the one
to blame for the idea, not Greenwood.


>So if you do have
>mortal elves in your game, dig out an old DMG and the age tables for elves
>therein.


Why? There's a perfectly good table in the 2nd Edition PHB, it's just the
little note at the bottom you have to ignore....

Mark A Vandermeulen
03-12-1998, 10:41 PM
On Wed, 11 Mar 1998, Gary V. Foss wrote:

> Anyway, as far as elves sailing off into the West is concerned. I think
> Tolkien meant is as more of a retirement kind of concept rather than as a form
> of death. Gandalf, Bilbo and Frodo get to go along too, remember? So it can't
> be just for elves. Maybe it was just a symbolic way of saying "I don't want to
> write about these characters anymore, but I don't have the heart to snuff them,
> so I'm going to send them on a long cruise."
>
> It's kind of a cop-out that works much more effectively to end a story than it
> does in a RPG.

I don't think it was a cop-out at all. The while point of elves sailing
off to the west (for anyone who actually slogged through the Silmarillion)
is that the West (I can't remember the name) IS heaven. When the elves are
sailing off to the west, they are going to heaven only without dieing
first (like Elijah in the Old Testament). Only elves can do this. The path
to the western land was closed off to humans: they can only get there
through death. I think if it sort of like God taking earth, which was
formerly flat, and making it into a sphere, only part of it was left out,
and that is the part where the elves go: they actually leave the earth and
sail to "heaven" in some sort of mysterious, mystic way. Gandalf could do
this because he wasn't human (he was actually more like a kind of
earth-bound angel), and Frodo could go because he bore the Ring, which
left its mark on him. Samwise appears to have gone the same way, and for
the same reason. The only one who I don't really understand is Gimli,
which the appendix says sailed off to the West with Legolas. Perhaps he
just died in the end, but wanted to go with Legolas his friend for as much
of the way as possible.

Gosh that was fun. I haven't debated Middle-Earth theology in ages. :)

Mark VanderMeulen
vander+@pitt.edu

Samuel Weiss
03-12-1998, 11:45 PM
>I don't think it was a cop-out at all. The while point of elves sailing
off to the west (for anyone who actually slogged through the Silmarillion)
is that the West (I can't remember the name) IS heaven. When the elves are
sailing off to the west, they are going to heaven only without dieing
first (like Elijah in the Old Testament). Only elves can do this. The path
to the western land was closed off to humans: they can only get there
through death. I think if it sort of like God taking earth, which was
formerly flat, and making it into a sphere, only part of it was left out,
and that is the part where the elves go: they actually leave the earth and
sail to "heaven" in some sort of mysterious, mystic way. Gandalf could do
this because he wasn't human (he was actually more like a kind of
earth-bound angel), and Frodo could go because he bore the Ring, which
left its mark on him. Samwise appears to have gone the same way, and for
the same reason. The only one who I don't really understand is Gimli,
which the appendix says sailed off to the West with Legolas. Perhaps he
just died in the end, but wanted to go with Legolas his friend for as much
of the way as possible.

Gosh that was fun. I haven't debated Middle-Earth theology in ages. :)

Mark VanderMeulen
vander+@pitt.edu<

"slogged" through the Silmarillion? Watch youself, that borders on heresy.
The elves were invited to go live with the Valar in the West. They left
because of the Silmarils. They were allowed to go back when they repented
their choice in leaving. Humans were never invited in the first place,
mostly because of their mortality. bear in mind though, that an elf that
dies goes to the Halls of the dead. They don't get brought back to life to
hang out with the other elves and the Valar. Gandalf was more of an avatar
of a Demi-Power, though I suppose you could see that as an earth bound
angel as well. Frodo and Samwise (The greatest character ever) did indeed
get to go to the West along with Bilbo because they were Ringbearers. Gimli
wanted to see Galadriel again, and because of her influence he was able to
get in. It doesn't actuallly say whether Giml kicks off after going over
and seeing her though.

Samwise

cedyeus
03-13-1998, 03:47 AM
>now what I REALLY hate in the PHB is the way elves seems to
>go to a land far across the oceans or something instead of die of old age..
>UGGH!!! Immortal, ok, long-lived ok, but this? NO!NO!NO!NO!

According to the elven handbook, when elves reac venerable age, they feel the
urge to retreat from the mortal world and join the Seldrine in Arvandor. The
intial "go off to a far away land" was meant as a tempory solution to elven
immortality before TSR got around to publishing the elven handbook.

And to reply to lord shade's comment about evermeet, No. Evermeet is the
last kindom of elves left on toril, but when they still reach old age they
leave that plane of existance and journey to meet the Seldrine. That is why
elves have such a strong racial identiy, after they all die they end up in the
same place to be reborn into the next generation.

Thanks for listening, those are my two pences.

Cedyeus

Gary V. Foss
03-13-1998, 07:41 AM
Mark A Vandermeulen wrote:

> On Wed, 11 Mar 1998, Gary V. Foss wrote:
>
> > Anyway, as far as elves sailing off into the West is concerned. I think
> > Tolkien meant is as more of a retirement kind of concept rather than as a form
> > of death. Gandalf, Bilbo and Frodo get to go along too, remember? So it can't
> > be just for elves. Maybe it was just a symbolic way of saying "I don't want to
> > write about these characters anymore, but I don't have the heart to snuff them,
> > so I'm going to send them on a long cruise."
> >
> > It's kind of a cop-out that works much more effectively to end a story than it
> > does in a RPG.
>
> I don't think it was a cop-out at all. The while point of elves sailing
> off to the west (for anyone who actually slogged through the Silmarillion)
> is that the West (I can't remember the name) IS heaven. When the elves are
> sailing off to the west, they are going to heaven only without dieing
> first (like Elijah in the Old Testament). Only elves can do this. The path
> to the western land was closed off to humans: they can only get there
> through death. I think if it sort of like God taking earth, which was
> formerly flat, and making it into a sphere, only part of it was left out,
> and that is the part where the elves go: they actually leave the earth and
> sail to "heaven" in some sort of mysterious, mystic way. Gandalf could do
> this because he wasn't human (he was actually more like a kind of
> earth-bound angel), and Frodo could go because he bore the Ring, which
> left its mark on him. Samwise appears to have gone the same way, and for
> the same reason. The only one who I don't really understand is Gimli,
> which the appendix says sailed off to the West with Legolas. Perhaps he
> just died in the end, but wanted to go with Legolas his friend for as much
> of the way as possible.
>
> Gosh that was fun. I haven't debated Middle-Earth theology in ages. :)
>
> Mark VanderMeulen
> vander+@pitt.edu

Gimli and Legolas were lovers. JOKE! It's a joke! I'm only joking!

OK, maybe my characterization of Tolkien was a little harsh. What I was trying to
say, though, was that sailing off to the West was the kind of thing that works better
in a novel format than in a RPG, so putting it in FR was kind of clumsy, IMO.

- -G.