Development Question

[Shade]

I have a question that has been bothering me for some time -
why did the BR developers choose to develop Anuire and Cerilia first, instead
of the other regions of Aebrynis? Cerilia is a tiny continent by Earth
standards,
not even the size of Australia (I think).

Is the reason because Cerilia was closest to Deismaar, and all the strongest
bloodlines are descended in Cerilia? Or because Cerilia is smaller and
easier to
develop? Anuire itself is a small place..

And what rationale did the BR developers have in mind for the existence of
bloodlines outside of Cerilia? Like in Aduria, Thaele, and Djapar? Did
migration from Cerilia account for the existence of bloodlines in other lands
or did they somehow develop on their own?

And the human races - Are the five human tribes mentioned in the basic BR
boxed
set the only ones in Aebrynis? Or are those the only five tribes in Cerilia?

And the elves, dwarves, goblins, and other humanoids - are all of these native
to Cerilia only, or did they evolve separately all over the planet? If they
are
only native to Cerilia, I assume that other nonhuman races exist in other
parts
of the world (actually this is not mutually exclusive).

I'd appreciate any kind of feedback from anyone on this topic. :)

[E Gray]

- -----Original Message-----
From: Shade
To: birthright@MPGN.COM
Date: Sunday, March 01, 1998 2:58 PM
Subject: [BIRTHRIGHT] - Development Question


>I have a question that has been bothering me for some time -
>why did the BR developers choose to develop Anuire and Cerilia first,
instead
>of the other regions of Aebrynis? Cerilia is a tiny continent by Earth
>standards, not even the size of Australia (I think).

Because they wanted to work from small to large, or just wanted to
start with this one place.


>And the human races - Are the five human tribes mentioned in the basic BR
>boxed set the only ones in Aebrynis? Or are those the only five tribes in
Cerilia?


I'd say they are pretty much "unique" to the continent, possibly with
relatives
elsewhere, but maybe not.


>And the elves, dwarves, goblins, and other humanoids - are all of these
native
>to Cerilia only, or did they evolve separately all over the planet?

Who knows? We don't know about the "humans" either...or BR or in RL,
so a better question would be are any of these other races found elsewhere?

I'd say yes to that question any day of the week....

[c558382@showme.missouri.]

Perhaps from the standpoint of the Jet plane Cerilia is small (after all
we live in world where you can fly from Chicago to Frankfort in a day).
But from the logistics of PC's Anuire alone is huge. In paractice,
walking from Coeranys to Avanil would take three months, assuming the
traveler didn't get distracted by side adventures.

Kenneth Gauck
c558382@showme.missouri.edu

[DKEvermore]

[DKEvermore]

[E Gray]

- -----Original Message-----
From: DKEvermore
To: birthright@MPGN.COM
Date: Tuesday, March 03, 1998 12:24 AM
Subject: Re: [BIRTHRIGHT] - Development Question

>And by the way, whether you travel on horse or by foot will *not* make a
>difference in travel time, except that finding forage for the horse in non-
>grassy terrain will slow you down. A horse can increase how much a person
can
>carry, but will not make him go faster. In a short sprint, yes. Long
hike?
>the human and horse travel at the same rate.


Not entirely true.....If one can change horses and ride in relays one can
go quite fast.......but that's not really an option if you don't have a
*Lot*
of horses like say Nomads or a Courier service..

[c558382@showme.missouri.]

On Tue, 3 Mar 1998, DKEvermore wrote:

> Are your PCs going stray from thier mission to gauk at the
> pretty castle Baron Ghoere has on the way to a meeting in Avanil? Mine
> wouldn't. In fact, mine wouldn't leave their kingdom without a heck of a good
> reason. Kings in Cerilia, at least in my game, do not have time for
> "sightseeing" and if they left their kingdom without a retinue (which can
> increase travel time) you better believe they have a good reason to leave an
> opening for usurpers like that.

Then your PC's are unlike historical monarchs. "I go about, I learn, I
see, I inform myself, and I make notes. That's more like being a student
than a conqueror." Joseph II, 1773. Monarchs and nobles often stopped to
visirt relicquaries and tombs. The education of a young noble was not
considered complete until much sightseeing was done. George III used to
visit farms and manufactories. Its not tourism in the modern sense its a
desire to know about the world in which you live. Not a desire to see
something novel or impressive, but to gain mastery over the unknown,
foreknowledge making one forearmed.

> And by the way, whether you travel on horse or by foot will *not* make a
> difference in travel time, except that finding forage for the horse in non-
> grassy terrain will slow you down. A horse can increase how much a person can
> carry, but will not make him go faster. In a short sprint, yes. Long hike?
> the human and horse travel at the same rate.
>
> There have been several times across multiple campaigns that the PCs chose for
> forgo horses because the terrain did not permit easy forage (high mountains,
> frozen waste, dead of winter in the north...)
>
> -Evermore

The example I used was from Coeranys to Avanil, so terrian is quite
favorable for horse traffic. Travel itself is exausting, so daily time
travelling was often no more than six hours. If travelling in dense, and
well travelled areas, facilities to restore your house (covered stables,
high quality forage, &c) can be available. Again, in trip from Coeranys
to Avanil, many times such inns will be available. While such facilities
did not appear in the Alps between France and Italy until the seventeenth
century, they were in place between Italian cities during the 15th, and
along pilgrimage routes even earlier. Factor in frequent, prolonged stops
and it becomes apparent that such a journey is a series of short hops, in
which the horse can travel faster than a person walking.

Kenneth Gauck
c558382@showme.missouri.edu

[Mark A Vandermeulen]

On Sun, 1 Mar 1998, Shade wrote:

> And what rationale did the BR developers have in mind for the existence of
> bloodlines outside of Cerilia? Like in Aduria, Thaele, and Djapar? Did
> migration from Cerilia account for the existence of bloodlines in other lands
> or did they somehow develop on their own?

Aduria: it is usually supposed that followers of Azrai from Aduria were
present at the battle of Mt Deismaar, although some evidence has put this
in question. I would say that troops from Aduria were present, but that a
combination of 1.) being on the loosing side, 2.) not having a way to get
back home since the land bridge was blown up, and 3.) being (I imagine)
closest to the mountain when it went "boom;" all mean that there are fewer
bloodlines in Aduria than there are in Cerillia. Most (but not necessarily
all) of these would probably be of Azrai's derivation.

Thaele: all due to colonization, as what population this land has is soley
from settlers from Rjuric nations.

Djapar: this IS an interesting question. Just on a whim, I'll make the
following suggestion: like Aduria, bloodlines will be very rare. However,
because no one (that we know of) from Djapar was present at Deismaar, they
must have received their power in another way. Perhaps all blooded people
in Djapar are decended from polymorphed dragons (perhaps a different
subspecies from the Cerillian dragon, but not necessarily so). If someone
was interested in this option, I suppose they would have to do a write-up
of the "Dragon" derivation for bloodlines, and decide what blood abilities
they should have access to. This might also explain the Magian problem,
although he does seem to have been unblooded when he arrived in Cerillia
(although that could easily have been another example of the
"misinformation" inherent in the Blood Enemies book.

> And the human races - Are the five human tribes mentioned in the basic BR
> boxed
> set the only ones in Aebrynis? Or are those the only five tribes in Cerilia?

Almost certainly they are just the only ones in Cerillia. They may have
relatives in Aduria who decided to stay when the 5 tribes left, but there
are probably many others there as well, not to mention tribes in Djapar,
the Islands to the South, and any other continents which may or may not
exist on Aebrynnis.

> And the elves, dwarves, goblins, and other humanoids - are all of these native
> to Cerilia only, or did they evolve separately all over the planet? If they
> are
> only native to Cerilia, I assume that other nonhuman races exist in other
> parts
> of the world (actually this is not mutually exclusive).

I see no reason why the demihumans would not be as cosmopolitan as the
humans (in ecological terms, "cosmopolitan" means "found everywhere"). Who
knows, the orogs may even have managed to tunnel under the oceans to reach
every continent on Aebrynnis. And there's no reason that other beasties
might not exist else where on the plane. If you want to have an island
populated by Thri-keen (sp?) or a Valley of the Centaurs, then go ahead.

Mark VanderMeulen
vander+@pitt.edu

[gandalf]

>Djapar: this IS an interesting question. Just on a whim, I'll make the
>following suggestion: like Aduria, bloodlines will be very rare. However,
>because no one (that we know of) from Djapar was present at Deismaar, they
>must have received their power in another way. Perhaps all blooded people
>in Djapar are decended from polymorphed dragons (perhaps a different
>subspecies from the Cerillian dragon, but not necessarily so). If someone
>was interested in this option, I suppose they would have to do a write-up
>of the "Dragon" derivation for bloodlines, and decide what blood abilities
>they should have access to. This might also explain the Magian problem,
>although he does seem to have been unblooded when he arrived in Cerillia
>(although that could easily have been another example of the
>"misinformation" inherent in the Blood Enemies book.


Why not travelers?
We do know that news of current status (or at least recent) in Djapar have
reached Anuire. I think this means that there have been travelers to and
from Djapar, if not many. Perhaps one of those that reached Djapar was
blooded, and decided to put his advantage to good use there, where it would
count more since bloodlines would be so few (perhaps seemingly
non-existent). Or maybe some Djaparian (sp?) might have set out for Cerilia,
and upon finding out about (and obtaining) blood, he would go back to his
homeland.

[Mark A Vandermeulen]

On Thu, 5 Mar 1998, gandalf wrote:

> Why not travelers?
> We do know that news of current status (or at least recent) in Djapar have
> reached Anuire. I think this means that there have been travelers to and
> from Djapar, if not many. Perhaps one of those that reached Djapar was
> blooded, and decided to put his advantage to good use there, where it would
> count more since bloodlines would be so few (perhaps seemingly
> non-existent). Or maybe some Djaparian (sp?) might have set out for Cerilia,
> and upon finding out about (and obtaining) blood, he would go back to his
> homeland.

Certainly possible, and I'm not disputing your right to play it this way,
but I like playing that Cerillia has not really been that big on
exploration: too much going on on the home front, what with wars and
awnsheighlein and all, and even though they have seaworthy ships, only the
Brecht really get a kick out of being out of sight of land for many days.
Also, I've always assumed that the faint bits of info we have on Djapar
are DM's info rather than players info--coming, as it does, mostly out of
the Blood Enemies book--and may be completely rumor and hearsay as that
book is subject to. I would think that only cartographers and sages are
likely even know about the existance of the place, much less anything
about it (with such knowledge perhaps being slightly more common in
Khinasi lands than elsewhere). If such bloodlines did get to Djapar via
Cerillian "vectors," I would imagine that it is more from storm-lost
mariners than from regular trade visits from Cerillian guilders. Of
course, this is only my own view, but I like the idea that there's a whole
lot of world out there for PC Explorers to be the "first" to discover. I
really like the idea that Cerillia is on the verge of an Age of
Exploration, and I think that such an age is an excellent idea for a
campaign (I just haven't met anyone around here yet who is as interested
in it as I am).
Plus, I thought bloodlines from Dragons was a pretty cool idea,
and though others might think so, too. I kind of think of Djapar as having
a sort of Japanese/Chinese feel to it, and so Dragon Bloodlines would fit
right in, but I haven't spent any time actually designing such things.

Mark VanderMeulen
vander+@pitt.edu

[Rasmus Juul Wagner]

On Fri, 6 Mar 1998, Mark A Vandermeulen wrote:

>
>
> On Thu, 5 Mar 1998, gandalf wrote:
>
> > Why not travelers?
> > We do know that news of current status (or at least recent) in Djapar have
> > reached Anuire. I think this means that there have been travelers to and
> > from Djapar, if not many. Perhaps one of those that reached Djapar was
> > blooded, and decided to put his advantage to good use there, where it would
> > count more since bloodlines would be so few (perhaps seemingly
> > non-existent). Or maybe some Djaparian (sp?) might have set out for Cerilia,
> > and upon finding out about (and obtaining) blood, he would go back to his
> > homeland.
>
> Certainly possible, and I'm not disputing your right to play it this way,
> but I like playing that Cerillia has not really been that big on
> exploration: too much going on on the home front, what with wars and
> awnsheighlein and all, and even though they have seaworthy ships, only the
> Brecht really get a kick out of being out of sight of land for many days.
> Also, I've always assumed that the faint bits of info we have on Djapar
> are DM's info rather than players info--coming, as it does, mostly out of
> the Blood Enemies book--and may be completely rumor and hearsay as that
> book is subject to. I would think that only cartographers and sages are
> likely even know about the existance of the place, much less anything
> about it (with such knowledge perhaps being slightly more common in
> Khinasi lands than elsewhere). If such bloodlines did get to Djapar via
> Cerillian "vectors," I would imagine that it is more from storm-lost
> mariners than from regular trade visits from Cerillian guilders. Of
> course, this is only my own view, but I like the idea that there's a whole
> lot of world out there for PC Explorers to be the "first" to discover. I
> really like the idea that Cerillia is on the verge of an Age of
> Exploration, and I think that such an age is an excellent idea for a
> campaign (I just haven't met anyone around here yet who is as interested
> in it as I am).
> Plus, I thought bloodlines from Dragons was a pretty cool idea,
> and though others might think so, too. I kind of think of Djapar as having
> a sort of Japanese/Chinese feel to it, and so Dragon Bloodlines would fit
> right in, but I haven't spent any time actually designing such things.


Dragon bloodlines? I don't know what you're talking about, but I like it
already...
I see dragons as stupendously awesomely powerful creatures (the Gorgon's
offensive in my campaign was stopped when Zakhur Lifesbane told the Gorgon
to go home).
Maybe the Dragons that died at cerilia imbued a very few with their own
unique bloodline...maybe when you slay a dragon (not the routine task of
most AD&D campaigns, but a world-shaking event) you gain some sort of
bloodline.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
...I still think a clone is a continuation of one's self...

Rasmus Juul Wagner
Technical University of Denmark
c958650@student.dtu..dk
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[Mark A Vandermeulen]

On Mon, 9 Mar 1998, Rasmus Juul Wagner wrote:

> Dragon bloodlines? I don't know what you're talking about, but I like it
> already...
> I see dragons as stupendously awesomely powerful creatures (the Gorgon's
> offensive in my campaign was stopped when Zakhur Lifesbane told the Gorgon
> to go home).
> Maybe the Dragons that died at cerilia imbued a very few with their own
> unique bloodline...maybe when you slay a dragon (not the routine task of
> most AD&D campaigns, but a world-shaking event) you gain some sort of
> bloodline.

The question was if and how people in Djapar had bloodlines if they
weren't at the battle of Deismaar, and I suggested that there might be
some humans in Djapar who were decended from some polymorphed dragons, and
so therefore had something like a bloodline, only from dragons rather than
from the gods. It was really just a concept that I was throwing out, and
if anyone feels like running with it and coming up with exactly how dragon
bloodlines would be different from divine bloodlines they should feel free
to go ahead. I hadn't thought about dragons slain at Deismaar, but that's
a pretty good idea as welll.

Mark VanderMeulen
vander+@pitt.edu

[Anthony K.G.Shewan]

> On Mon, 9 Mar 1998, Rasmus Juul Wagner wrote:
>
> > Dragon bloodlines? I don't know what you're talking about, but I like
it
> > already...
> > I see dragons as stupendously awesomely powerful creatures (the
Gorgon's
> > offensive in my campaign was stopped when Zakhur Lifesbane told the
Gorgon
> > to go home).
> > Maybe the Dragons that died at cerilia imbued a very few with their own
> > unique bloodline...maybe when you slay a dragon (not the routine task
of
> > most AD&D campaigns, but a world-shaking event) you gain some sort of
> > bloodline.

I have a small problem with this. Bloodlines are "divine essence" -
leftovers from the destruction of gods (GODS) at Deismar (sp.). Dragons are
great I like dragons, the game is called Advanced Dungeons & Dragons for a
reason, but dragons are not and never have been divine. Can dragons have
bloodlines? Sure, the designers have given Bloodlines to a wild pig and a
wolf why not a dragon. However I do not think dragons should have their own
unique Bloodline
Bloodlines didn't exist (or did they?) pre-Deisamar (sp.) so where would a
dragon get a their own unique bloodline from if they are not divine (or are
they?)

Regards
Anthony

[Daniel McSorley]

>> > Dragon bloodlines? I don't know what you're talking about, but I like
>it
>> > already...
>> > I see dragons as stupendously awesomely powerful creatures (the
>Gorgon's
>> > offensive in my campaign was stopped when Zakhur Lifesbane told the
>Gorgon
>> > to go home).

That sounds cool :)

>> > Maybe the Dragons that died at cerilia imbued a very few with their own
>> > unique bloodline...maybe when you slay a dragon (not the routine task
>of
>> > most AD&D campaigns, but a world-shaking event) you gain some sort of
>> > bloodline.
>
>I have a small problem with this. Bloodlines are "divine essence" -
>leftovers from the destruction of gods (GODS) at Deismar (sp.). Dragons are
>great I like dragons, the game is called Advanced Dungeons & Dragons for a
>reason, but dragons are not and never have been divine. Can dragons have
>bloodlines? Sure, the designers have given Bloodlines to a wild pig and a
>wolf why not a dragon. However I do not think dragons should have their own
>unique Bloodline
>Bloodlines didn't exist (or did they?) pre-Deisamar (sp.) so where would a
>dragon get a their own unique bloodline from if they are not divine (or are
>they?)
>
As someone else pointed out, it is canon that dragons can not have
bloodlines derived from Deismaar. However, I think they do have divine
essence in some form or other. Here's how my train of thought is going:
Elves are related to nature in such a way that they can all sense and
control mebhaighl, if they are so inclined, enough to use true magic.
However, they need a bloodline to be able to cast realm magic, just like
everyone else.
Dragons are more closely related to nature than elves (actually, IMC the
dragons and the elves are pretty closely related anyway). They can cast
true magic (I think), and, if they put their minds to it, realm magic,
controlling sources and such, as at least one dragon has already. This is
because dragons are the most ancient of races, the first children of
Aebrynis, and thus are more closely attuned to the ebb and flow of
mebhaighl. Who do you think used those ancient ley lines and caerbhaighlien
before Deismaar?
In response to the Dragon Bloodline thing, I don't think it would
happen. Dragons are of the earth, not the heavens, they aren't blooded and
don't have a bloodline to give. That would be like killing an elf and
getting a bloodline of elvish derivation, it doesn't make sense.
Daniel McSorley
mcsorley.1@osu.edu
ICQ:5299865
AIM:DanMcS