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Osprey
05-17-2004, 02:05 PM
So we all know Cerilian Dragons can cast true magic without bloodlines.

Does their primal blood allow them to control sources, ley lines, and regency, or are they limited to magics of a smaller scale? Also, if they collected regency could they in fact strengthen their own bloodlines?

In other words, should dragons be treated like scions with True bloodlines (or at least True/Great, depending on age?).

Curious if others have some ideas on this subject, as it could be a fascinating little piece of mostly-lost Cerilian lore.

Osprey

irdeggman
05-17-2004, 03:29 PM
IMO no they shouldn't be. IMO they are more like elves, they can cast true magic but not realm magic unless they have a bloodline.

They aren't divine in nature, which is the real tie for manifesting realm magic. It was the blood of the gods (e.g., divine essence) that allows focusing of the mebhaighl required for realm magic without being destroyed.

teloft
05-17-2004, 07:10 PM
In other words, should dragons be treated like scions with True bloodlines (or at least True/Great, depending on age?).


I like this idee :)

So killing a dragon eould give you some blood boost. even you could get a new bloodline !! a dragon blood.

we could be moving towards a posible variant setings West of the andurian Named "DARK SUN"

geeman
05-17-2004, 07:20 PM
Osprey writes:



> So we all know Cerilian Dragons can cast true magic without bloodlines.Does their primal blood allow them to control sources, ley lines, and regency, or are they limited to magics of a smaller scale? Also, if they collected regency could they in fact strengthen their own bloodlines?In other words, should dragons be treated like scions with True bloodlines (or at least True/Great, depending on age?). Curious if others have some ideas on this subject, as it could be a fascinating little piece of mostly-lost Cerilian lore.



I don`t have any BR material in front of me at the moment, but IIRC the

existence of dragon bones in a province is one of the things that can raise

the potential source level of that province. Given that, it seems like

dragons might have some innate source-like power if just their calcifying

corpses represents what is, in effect, 1-3 potential source levels. I

suggest that a living, (fire-)breathing dragon might represent a more

powerful magical "source" all by its lonesome.



However, I`d suggest that casting realm spells and participation in the BR

domain level of play might be a step down for a Cerilian dragon. They may

be operating at a level above that of the bloodline/domain level. That

might explain why dragon(s) present on the battlefield were "immune" to the

effects of Deismaar. If they already have a dragon-ish equivalent that is

more powerful than bloodline, the comparatively paltry powers absorbed by

mortals (and elves) at that battle might not stack (in 3e terms) with their

draconic power.



I like to postulate the existence of an "empire level" of play that is to

the domain level what the domain level is to the adventure level. That

"empire level" could also be the "dragon level" if you will. Cerilian

dragons might be operating at that level, magically speaking, and wielding

magics that are so vast that they might actually go unnoticed or mistaken

for something else when viewed at the domain or adventure levels. Draconic

"source" magic might be responsible for hurricanes, earthquakes, plagues,

the seasons, or similar continent or even planet spanning effect. The

domain turns and action rounds of that level of play might take decades or

years. Dragons could be competing with the gods themselves for the control

of "empire level" sources (or the gods might be a level or two above

dragons) or with similar, titan-like beings in a conflict that is so broad

most of humanity doesn`t even recognize it because of its vast scale.



At least, that`s the kind of thing I`d lean towards.



Gary

tcharazazel
05-17-2004, 07:30 PM
Heh, blooded dragons... Well even if theyre not considered blooded to begin with, how many adventures have they probably eaten over the past 1500+ years since deismaar that were blooded? Probably a few at least. So, its fairly likely that they would have bloodlines anyway.

Now, considering the posssiblity of them being blooded... It would be interesting if dragons have their own type of divine blood from a primal source, ie not from any of the gods who died at diesmaar, that gives them their powers, as they age. Unless, you mean they have this divine blood that gives them other powers in addition to what they already have. Then I'm never goin dragon hunting...

However, if dragons have this primal divine blood why wouldnt the elves? Heh, would be a good excuse to have elves take a level in elf to get their benefits (though most likely they start off with a few benefits like immortality, ect), just like scions need to take a level in scion to get access to their powers.

In any case it would at least be an interesting variant that would help explain why these two races can cast arcane magic.

tcharazazel
05-17-2004, 07:56 PM
I like to postulate the existence of an "empire level" of play that is to
the domain level what the domain level is to the adventure level. That
"empire level" could also be the "dragon level" if you will. Cerilian
dragons might be operating at that level, magically speaking, and wielding
magics that are so vast that they might actually go unnoticed or mistaken
for something else when viewed at the domain or adventure levels. Draconic
"source" magic might be responsible for hurricanes, earthquakes, plagues,
the seasons, or similar continent or even planet spanning effect. The
domain turns and action rounds of that level of play might take decades or
years. Dragons could be competing with the gods themselves for the control
of "empire level" sources (or the gods might be a level or two above
dragons) or with similar, titan-like beings in a conflict that is so broad
most of humanity doesn`t even recognize it because of its vast scale.


That's an awesome way to describe how they would act, subtly working cercumstances, like playing igo, until you have your opponent surrounded and without a secure base and thus forcing them to surrender... Gods shouldnt really be on the same level as dragons, as most Gods are probably more inteligent than the dragons, as the average dragon inteligence is 26 while most gods would probably be in the 30s-40s. Additionally gods really depend upon the belief of their followers, while dragons do not need followers.

Hmm, well they may compete on some levels then, however, I imagine that gods would have a bigger view than just empire, more like continental to world view of things at least, along with they interests in the Shadow world and maybe some in the elemental planes, ect. Because, they very well could have other followers on other continents or planes, however, those followers may have slightly different names for them, and then there maybe other planets following this example, heh, who knows, maybe some of them count by galexy, universe or planes (ie shadow world, Prime material plane, Elemental planes, ect).

It really, leads you to contemplate just how far one would be able to expand ones influence over one's reality, as for gods their reality is exsisting on multiple worlds in multiple planes, while for most dragons their reality is about 1-4 regions (or 1 continent at best) and 1 maybe 2 planes (some may have ties to the shadow world), and for the average human their reality is the local area they live and work inm just to give it a little perspective.

irdeggman
05-17-2004, 08:17 PM
Originally posted by geeman@May 17 2004, 02:20 PM

I don`t have any BR material in front of me at the moment, but IIRC the

existence of dragon bones in a province is one of the things that can raise

the potential source level of that province. Given that, it seems like

dragons might have some innate source-like power if just their calcifying

corpses represents what is, in effect, 1-3 potential source levels.
IIRC they were treated as artifacts and were essentially "portable sources", they did not add to the source level of the province but were separate sources that did not count towards the 'normal' level of sources that a province (i.e., terrain) has.

irdeggman
05-17-2004, 08:26 PM
Originally posted by geeman@May 17 2004, 02:20 PM
That

might explain why dragon(s) present on the battlefield were "immune" to the

effects of Deismaar.

Maybe I'm missing something - but I don't recall mention of dragons at Deismaar.

There are only a handful of dragons total (I can't recall the exact number but it is less than 12). They don't like to be bothered by lesser beings. So whose side would they have fought on? That would have been the side that won, pretty much automatically.

Even the Gorgon's 'pet' wasn't defeated until after he (the Gorgon) ascended to awnsheghlien status.

Magian
05-17-2004, 08:47 PM
Originally posted by irdeggman+May 17 2004, 02:26 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (irdeggman @ May 17 2004, 02:26 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-geeman@May 17 2004, 02:20 PM
That

might explain why dragon(s) present on the battlefield were "immune" to the

effects of Deismaar.

Maybe I&#39;m missing something - but I don&#39;t recall mention of dragons at Deismaar.

There are only a handful of dragons total (I can&#39;t recall the exact number but it is less than 12). They don&#39;t like to be bothered by lesser beings. So whose side would they have fought on? That would have been the side that won, pretty much automatically.

Even the Gorgon&#39;s &#39;pet&#39; wasn&#39;t defeated until after he (the Gorgon) ascended to awnsheghlien status. [/b][/quote]
If I recall correctly there is mention that dragons did fight at Deismaar. It may be in the Dragon magazines that have articles of the dragons of Cerilia. Also the limited number of dragons refers only to dragons living in Cerilia not the rest of the world.

Another thing to note. In Vosgaard there is a dragon that does own sources. It is between the Raven&#39;s realm and Zoloskaya. Actually the Dragon Vore Lekiniskiy is in both realms.

geeman
05-17-2004, 09:20 PM
irdeggman writes:



> Maybe I`m missing something - but I don`t recall mention of

> dragons at Deismaar.



> There are only a handful of dragons total (I can`t recall

> the exact number but it is less than 12). They don`t like to be

> bothered by lesser beings. So whose side would they have fought on?

> That would have been the side that won, pretty much automatically.



I still don`t have my BR materials with me, but IIRC there were Dragon mag

articles that mention dragons being present at Deismaar. I think it was one

from Vosgaard fighting on Azrai`s side and another from Anuire who fought

against Azrai.



Dragons (particularly BR dragons) should be pretty impossibly powerful, but

given that that battle involved the gods themselves, a dragon or two might

have actually not been the most powerful things on the field.



There is a list of the dragons known to exist (or that have been mentioned

in the BR materials) compiled by Daniel McSorley and in the archives at:



http://oracle.wizards.com/scripts/wa.exe?A2=ind0111B&L=birthright-l&P=R1691&

m=9974



Gary

Osprey
05-17-2004, 09:30 PM
My thought was that dragons are primal beings, like demigods in their own rights. While elves might be similar, I think it&#39;s safe to assume that elves represent a far less potent concentration of mebhaighl (per individual being) than dragons do.

If dragons are like sources by themselves, why could they not extend that power to control other sources?

Dragons seem to be the oldest race in Aebrynis, older even than the elves. Who is to say dragons weren&#39;t in fact the major creators of Aebrynis in its primal form? Who is to say they are not in fact the Ancient Gods of Aebrynis, while the Old Gods (Azrai, Anduiras, etc.) were more like the 2nd generation? The difference being the dragons are so tied to the place that they do not or cannot exist seperate from Aebrynis.

So the idea would be that dragons have their own bloodlines - now whether "derivation" is relevant or not is another issue, or whether "Dragon" or "Draconic" suffices for a derivation. I would lean toward Draconic being enough, important in that it is different from the gods&#39; bloodlines, of a distinctly primal, elemental nature, but also more broad - all of the elements, and general arcane-oriented abilities.

The other really neat difference might be that their bloodlines naturally increase with age, rather than regency. If they are closely tied to the land, then perhaps they shed divine bloodlines of scions like water, as their own blood is too primal and works differently. I imagine them somehow absorbing the local mebhaighl very slowly.

In fact this might be a very unique BR-specific explanation for how dragons grow more powerful with time and aging. By absorbing and integrating native mebhaighl which over times causes them to grow and develop - obviously on a very different time scale than mortals.


IIRC they were treated as artifacts and were essentially "portable sources", they did not add to the source level of the province but were separate sources that did not count towards the &#39;normal&#39; level of sources that a province (i.e., terrain) has.

I distinctly remember that they added to sources, as in +1 to +3, mentioned as one of the factors that couold raise a source potential above its normal maximum by terrain type.

geeman
05-18-2004, 01:00 AM
At 11:30 PM 5/17/2004 +0200, Osprey wrote:



> If dragons are like sources by themselves, why could they not extend

> that power to control other sources?



Exactly. I think the argument that it is a bloodline that allows control

of source holdings has some merit in that system of realm spells and RP

might be particular to bloodline--other analogous things exist, but they

act at an essentially different rate, without RP, etc.--but I`m inclined to

think a dragon probably could control sources but doesn`t bother since they

are operating at a higher level and/or the power gained by such an action

is, to the dragon, pretty negligible. What realm spells does a dragon

need, really? The personal actions of a dragon would probably be as/more

powerful as a Death Plague, Mass Destruction or Raze realm spell. In fact,

a dragon could probably get that kind of thing done in a day or three

(guesstimate.) Alchemy makes some sense for a standard, European dragon

consumed by greed, but if you consider the actual profit earning potential

of the realm spell it`s actually rather slow and costly realm spell, and a

dragon might have easier methods to acquire wealth... methods that are also

tastier and peppered with fair damsels, for instance.



> The other really neat difference might be that their bloodlines

> naturally increase with age, rather than regency. If they are closely

> tied to the land, then perhaps they shed divine bloodlines of scions like

> water, as their own blood is too primal and works differently. I imagine

> them somehow absorbing the local mebhaighl very slowly.



I considered that, honestly, but didn`t mention it.... Dern. It`s a good

idea, frankly, and one that slips into the concept of both the dragon

themes re: aging and hints at some "level of play" that is domain level or

above. Gotta like that.



>
IIRC they were treated as artifacts and were essentially

>"portable sources", they did not add to the source level of the

>province but were separate sources that did not count towards the `normal`

>level of sources that a province (i.e., terrain) has.

>

> I distinctly remember that they added to sources, as in +1 to +3,

> mentioned as one of the factors that couold raise a source potential

> above its normal maximum by terrain type.



OK, got my books in front of me now, and you`re right... mostly. From the

BoM entry for "Mebhaigh Stones" p75:



Mebhaighl stones contain a quantity of mebhaighl equal to that found at a

source (1).... Up to three stones may be used jointly to cast a realm

spell requiring a source (3).... A mebhaighl stone used in conjunction

with a source can boost the source level by 1; in other words, a caster

tapping a source (2) and a mebhaighl stone may cast a realm spell that

requires a source (3).; Like the three-stone limit described above, no

more than one stone may be added to a source used in a realm spell.



Gary

geeman
05-18-2004, 01:20 AM
In regards to dragon bones` affects on source potential BoM p21 comments

that:



"Some natural phenomena--among them dragon bones and underground

rivers--possess the power to boost sources beyond their usual limits."



That`s about it, I`m afraid. +1 to +3 seems reasonable for such a thing,

though there`s no technical limit on the issue that I can think

of. Dragons do, after all, seem to have powerful mythic abilities and

influences before and after death. If one little silver seed (ibid)

planted in a province means the "mebhaighl will forever flow strong" (is

that +1 to +3 or is it the elven equivalent of population growth not

damaging source potential in that province?) then one might think the

gigantic corpse of a definitive creature like a dragon might have any

number of effects....



Gary

fiftyone
05-18-2004, 01:46 AM
hrmm.. theres the Gorgon&#39;s pet aswell as Vore. Mention of four dragons in the drachenward and one in the five peaks. Any others?

Uruḷki
05-18-2004, 02:46 AM
Originally posted by fiftyone@May 18 2004, 01:46 AM
hrmm.. theres the Gorgon&#39;s pet aswell as Vore. Mention of four dragons in the drachenward and one in the five peaks. Any others?
Hi,

I am maybe just a fool, but somewhere in my minds there appear to be too a dragon in Hope&#39;s Demise / Elinie. The Great Old One is bound to House Ibn Daouta, but again I am not sure at all. :unsure:

Just my two (cursed) cents

tcharazazel
05-18-2004, 03:15 AM
Here are some dragons and where they&#39;re mentioned. Thanks to Dan McSorley&#39;s post in the archives

Dragons

Living:
Zakhur Lifesbane (Dragon Mag #230)
Tarazin the Grey (#218)
Vore Lekiniskiy (#248)
The Dragon (Havens of the Great Bay)

Deceased:
Nargest (DM #230)
Weyrzak the Thunderer (#230)
Azakadazar (#218)
Raizhadik (#218)
Infyrna (#218)
Ukarzid (BoP)

Raesene Andu
05-18-2004, 05:39 AM
I&#39;ve always played Dragon as NOT possessing a bloodline. However, they are more ancient than any other race, perhaps even as old as the gods and their command over magic is second to none. The ancient dragon were able to tap directly into the source of magic and use them to cast incredible magics (including realm spells), but they never controlled source holdings, ley line, or anything like that.

RaspK_FOG
05-18-2004, 06:35 AM
I always thought of dragons as the per se (is that correct?) most powerful born mages, and considering they can devote a lot of time to also gain levels as sorcerers, they make for perfect mages;

Top that with the fact that when the question arose on how should sorcerers be represented, my idea was that they can control the flows of mebhaighal without actually knowing the process necessary to accomplish such a task (intuitive use of mebhaighl, as I would call it), or not caring whether they do or not (multi-class characters and dragons would be such a case), since they can do it just like that&#33; Realm spells are a possibility, but aren&#39;t RP needed to cast them?

But I will also have to agree with the BRCS team here; I just cannot think of a dragon like that, it simply seems not fitting to them&#33;

Benjamin
05-18-2004, 09:47 AM
It has been my understanding (to repeat others above) that dragons are ancient beings that have a mystical tie to the land that no others have. They just instinctively tie into those ancient ley lines (discussed in BoM somewhere) and tap the magic of the land. To them it&#39;s like breathing. So a dragon could create sources and ley lines, but doesn&#39;t need to because s/he can just tap the hidden flows of magic instinctively.

Now, The Dragon and Vore Lekiniskiy are probably taking over sources as amusement. After all, what need does an ancient creature need of them? But a few days (in their life) of amusement by playing with mere mortals could be fun, so why not. Just because the humans think it&#39;s centuries is their problem.

geeman
05-18-2004, 10:50 PM
At 11:47 AM 5/18/2004 +0200, Benjamin wrote:



> It has been my understanding (to repeat others above) that dragons are

> ancient beings that have a mystical tie to the land that no others

> have. They just instinctively tie into those ancient ley lines

> (discussed in BoM somewhere) and tap the magic of the land. To them it`s

> like breathing. So a dragon could create sources and ley lines, but

> doesn`t need to because s/he can just tap the hidden flows of magic

> instinctively.



I`m curious where the impression that BR dragons have a "connection to the

land" in the way that a Cerilian elf or blooded character does. Anyone

have quotes/references for that kind of thing?



I`m wondering because it might be the kind of thing that equates in some

way to the D&D 3e take on having "dragon blood" for sorcerers, and I`d like

to make sure the two concepts aren`t being confused.



Gary

Ariadne
05-18-2004, 11:31 PM
Originally posted by teloft@May 17 2004, 08:10 PM


In other words, should dragons be treated like scions with True bloodlines (or at least True/Great, depending on age?).


I like this idee :)

So killing a dragon eould give you some blood boost. even you could get a new bloodline &#33;&#33; a dragon blood.

Hey, there could the bloodlines of Unearthed Arcana come into play. A "Cerilian Dragen-bloodline"...


I like this idea too...

Osprey
05-19-2004, 02:50 PM
Originally posted by geeman@May 18 2004, 06:50 PM
At 11:47 AM 5/18/2004 +0200, Benjamin wrote:



> It has been my understanding (to repeat others above) that dragons are

> ancient beings that have a mystical tie to the land that no others

> have. They just instinctively tie into those ancient ley lines

> (discussed in BoM somewhere) and tap the magic of the land. To them it`s

> like breathing. So a dragon could create sources and ley lines, but

> doesn`t need to because s/he can just tap the hidden flows of magic

> instinctively.



I`m curious where the impression that BR dragons have a "connection to the

land" in the way that a Cerilian elf or blooded character does. Anyone

have quotes/references for that kind of thing?



I`m wondering because it might be the kind of thing that equates in some

way to the D&D 3e take on having "dragon blood" for sorcerers, and I`d like

to make sure the two concepts aren`t being confused.



Gary

I think in this case, at least speaking for myself, the connection between dragons and the land is implicit in the fact that they are inherent masters of true arcane magic, which by definition is powered by mebhaighl, the energy nature. So anyone who lives, eats, and breathes magic in BR is also distinctly connected to the powers of the earth, sky, fire, etc. Hence my elemental connection previous.

I can&#39;t think of any explicit statements saying how connected dragons are to the land in BR, but then again I have precious little information to go on, as I have never seen the Dragon Magazine articles on Cerilian dragons, more&#39;s the pity. It&#39;s a subject I could explore endlessly...but more importantly mt players are about to meet their first one in my game tomorrow (Thursday EST) evening.

Speaking of that...is there supposed to be a more proper name for "Lifesbane", the dragon of the Five Peaks? Is that in fact the Gorgon&#39;s dragon, or a different beastie? Just trying to figure out if there&#39;s other stuff out there before I go make it all up, however, I need to know like...now. Any help?

Osprey

ConjurerDragon
05-19-2004, 04:10 PM
Osprey schrieb:



>This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.

> You can view the entire thread at:

> http://www.birthright.net/forums/index.php...=2&t=2610<br (http://www.birthright.net/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=2&t=2610<br) />
>

> Osprey wrote:

> geeman,May 18 2004, 06:50 PM: At 11:47 AM 5/18/2004 +0200, Benjamin wrote:<>

> <>

>

>

...



> Speaking of that...is there supposed to be a more proper name for "Lifesbane", the dragon of the Five Peaks? Is that in fact the Gorgon`s dragon, or a different beastie? Just trying to figure out if there`s other stuff out there before I go make it all up, however, I need to know like...now. Any help?

> Osprey

>

Dragon Magazin 240

Zakhur is Lifesbane, the youngest known Dragon of Cerilia

The Gorgons dragon was Raizhadik as far as I remember..

bye

Michael

ryancaveney
05-20-2004, 10:40 PM
On Mon, 17 May 2004, irdeggman wrote:



> Maybe I`m missing something - but I don`t recall mention of dragons at

> Deismaar. There are only a handful of dragons total (I can`t recall

> the exact number but it is less than 12). They don`t like to be

> bothered by lesser beings. So whose side would they have fought on?

> That would have been the side that won, pretty much automatically.



IMO, dragons were very heavily represented at Deismaar on both sides, and

almost all of them died there, which is precisely why there are so few of

them left today.





Ryan Caveney

geeman
05-21-2004, 01:00 AM
At 06:16 PM 5/20/2004 -0400, Ryan Caveney wrote:



>IMO, dragons were very heavily represented at Deismaar on both sides, and

>almost all of them died there, which is precisely why there are so few of

>them left today.



That`s an interesting idea. It seems like if dragons were very heavily

represented at Deismaar then there would be substantially fewer human

survivors as well....



Gary

Raesene Andu
05-21-2004, 02:50 AM
I think there was around 10-15 dragons at Deismaar, at least I seem to recall having seen the number 12 mentioned somewhere before.

ryancaveney
05-26-2004, 10:09 PM
On Thu, 20 May 2004, Gary wrote:



> It seems like if dragons were very heavily represented at Deismaar

> then there would be substantially fewer human survivors as well....



Maybe that`s exactly why the continent seems so underpopulated. =)

ryancaveney
05-26-2004, 10:10 PM
On Thu, 20 May 2004, Gary wrote:



> It seems like if dragons were very heavily represented at Deismaar

> then there would be substantially fewer human survivors as well....



Maybe that`s exactly why the continent seems so underpopulated. =)

ryancaveney
05-26-2004, 10:20 PM
On Thu, 20 May 2004, Gary wrote:



> It seems like if dragons were very heavily represented at Deismaar

> then there would be substantially fewer human survivors as well....



Maybe that`s exactly why the continent seems so underpopulated. =)