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The Jew
05-10-2004, 09:52 AM
Rather than smite evil Avani paladins should have smite shadow, i.e. creatures from the shadow world and undead. Since this would be pretty significantly weaker than smite evil (how often does one run into shadow world creatures or undead compared to just evil creatures), I would suggest strengthening the Paladins spells. The two simplest ideas which come to mind are giving paladins access to spells from the domains knowlede, law and magic or starting a paladins spell progression a little earlier such as on 2nd or 3rd level.

Birthright-L
05-10-2004, 11:00 AM
The Jew said:

> Rather than smite evil Avani paladins should have smite shadow, i.e.

> creatures from the shadow world and undead.



Assuming that, as I do, almost all Shadow World creatures are Chaotic and

Evil, Smite Chaos might be an alternative.



Personally, I don`t see why Smite Evil has to go; Avani is still into the

supression of evil, afterall, just without having to be merciful and just.



--

John Machin

(trithemius@kallisti.net.nz)

"Nothing is more beautiful than to know the All."

- Athanasius Kircher, `The Great Art of Knowledge`.

irdeggman
05-10-2004, 03:54 PM
Halflings are also shadow world creatures so the smite shadow would also work against them.

Ruornil was specifically mentioned as having the role of keeping the shadow world at bay.

Avani is about seeking and preserving knowledge and spreading light. This could be interpreted as being against the shadow, but remember that the showdow world is not really a darkness thing it is just a name given to the place that due to its constantly changing nature it is like looking at the world through shadows.

Smite Evil would have to go otherwise we would be saying tha Avani is really a good deity and not a neutral one.

I wasn't saying that Avani's paladins couldn't be rewritten to reflect this nature but remember that the majority wanted the paladins not to be rewritten as separate classes, unfortunately this is one case where the standard PHB paladin doesn't work for a non good aligned paladin.

Neutral clerics can either cast spontaneous helaing or harming, but have to chose at character creation. This was to reflect that their diety is neutral on the subject of alignment, since a paladin is supposed to be reflected the deity's core principles it doesn't work to have it left up to the player's choice (or to specify in this case). Smite Chaos could work instead since Avani is Lawful.

Osprey
05-10-2004, 04:31 PM
I have no problem with Smite Chaos replacing Smite Evil for Avani's champions. Seems a reasonable reflection of their axiomatic natures, and it's an even-keeled replacement that doesn't upset the balance of power with the class in any way.

Osprey

RaspK_FOG
05-11-2004, 12:52 AM
Smite Chaos all the way with me... One of the things I was certain from the start when it came to the individual write-ups I still have not sent you Irdeggman; explanation already given via PM if you have not noticed it.

irdeggman
05-11-2004, 01:00 AM
No problem Rasp, as I IM'd back.

You are after all the only one who has expressed an interest in creating writeups at all :(

destowe
06-01-2004, 05:28 AM
With the low-magic item availablity, I would have the paladin's smite ability allow the weapon to be considered a force effect. Maybe only that attack, maybe for 1 minute. Not sure on that.

Incoporeal undead and shadows should be easier for them to combat.

Ming I
06-01-2004, 06:25 AM
Originally posted by destowe

With the low-magic item availablity, I would have the paladin's smite ability allow the weapon to be considered a force effect. Maybe only that attack, maybe for 1 minute. Not sure on that.

Incoporeal undead and shadows should be easier for them to combat.

Paladins gain the ability to turn undead at 4th level (albeit as a cleric 3 levels lower than their current level). They also receive the ability to cast spells at 4th level (provided that their Wisdom bonus is high enough). This means that at 4th level they have the choice of either turning a shadow (chances are slim) or casting Magic Weapon and at least having a 50% chance of damaging it.

A shadow is only a CR 3 monster which means it would be a challenge for a party of 3rd level characters. Although the Paladin at 3rd level (without a magical weapon) would not be a great help in directly defeating a shadow, she could support the magician, wizard, sorcerer, cleric, or person(s) with a magical weapon in doing so.

I'm not convinced that making the smite ability a force affect is the answer, but I always appreciate being proven wrong, it keeps me humble. ;)

irdeggman
06-01-2004, 03:52 PM
I agree with Ming I in that changing smite evil to a force power drastically changes the make up of the character classes for a single specific issue.

How many times really should a DM use shadows against a 3rd level party, regardless of their CR? IMO most of the time the encounter will be more lower level undead instead.

Also scions (scion level 1) can start with magic weapons if the "Heirlooms and Special Equipment" variant (BRCS pg 148) is used {IMO this will generally be a standard variant for campaigns, since it matches the 2nd ed sytem for starting regents' equipment)

Spiritual Weapon (a 2nd level Cleric spell) and magic missle (a 1st level wizard/sorc spell) both are effective against Incorporeal undead. Bless weapon (a 1st level paladin spell - avail at 4th level for a paladin) is also effective.

So there are many ways to overcome this 'obstacle', which should be explored and 'planned for' by the DM before generating such an encounter.

destowe
06-01-2004, 04:07 PM
I completely forgot about spritiual weapon. That makes a good 2nd level spell for a CR3 party.

Yes magic missiles are nice, but as magicians are going to be the most common arcane caster, they can not handle them.

But does not Bless Weapon still have the 50% miss rate? And I thought all magic items still had the 50% miss chance.

I still like the Smite (shadow) better than smite (chaos) for Avani's paladins are seen more as defending against the encroachments of the Shadow, than going against those that walk their own path.

irdeggman
06-01-2004, 06:29 PM
Bless Weapon specifically states it works as a +1 enhancement bonus (although no actual bonus is applied) for purposes of striking incorporeal creatures.

destowe
06-01-2004, 06:36 PM
Even when struck by magic or magic weapons, an incorporeal creature has a 50% chance to ignore any damage from a corporeal source—except for a force effect or damage dealt by a ghost touch weapon.

So even with a magic weapon, they have only a 50/50 chance. By giving them the equivalant of ghost touch they can hit it as long as they make the to hit roll.

irdeggman
06-01-2004, 08:44 PM
Yes magic missiles are nice, but as magicians are going to be the most common arcane caster, they can not handle them.ice, but as magicians are going to be the most common arcane caster, they can not handle them.

The question then becomes is the DM preparing encounters for NPCs or PCs? While there are more magicians than wizards/sorcerers, most PCs will, IMO, be wizards vice magicians. They are elite characters and even though there will be some PC magicians, most will elect to play wizards. Most likely PC magicians will come about becasue the DM wants it that way, the players are playing more than one character or the player really wants the role-playing challenge (and lack of domain level play) involved with playing a magician.



Even when struck by magic or magic weapons, an incorporeal creature has a 50% chance to ignore any damage from a corporeal source—except for a force effect or damage dealt by a ghost touch weapon.

True.

Something else to be concerned with is that incorporeal creatures ignore armor, so a 3rd level party will be real susceptable regardless because of the lowered AC they have. So it becomes even more important for the DM to, 'balance' the encounter.

dedeefendi
06-04-2004, 05:37 AM
May be there can be two kinds of Avani Paladins. One goes to hunt for evil mages and necromancy and the other one tries to spread the light of Avani.
First type would have magic resistance.
Second type would have earlier access to paladin spells.
You can take away some of his paladin abilities to balance with other classes.
For example you can take special mount from the first one and you can take smite evil and give smite shadow for the second one
But in my point of view Birthright is a Paladin/Priest world with much power in them and I won't try to balance them as they were naturally stronger in 2nd edition and its still the flavour of the game.
For example I give curieceen paladins weapon focus and weapon spec. free and take away their spell casting abilities and turn undead power but my players still insist on playing curieceen paladin for his CG alignement and Roleplay.

tcharazazel
06-04-2004, 08:13 AM
But in my point of view Birthright is a Paladin/Priest world with much power in them and I won't try to balance them as they were naturally stronger in 2nd edition and its still the flavour of the game.
For example I give curieceen paladins weapon focus and weapon spec. free and take away their spell casting abilities and turn undead power but my players still insist on playing curieceen paladin for his CG alignement and Roleplay.

Wow!

Heheh, isnt that a contradidtion?

A +1 to attack and +2 damage worth much less than the pali spells, as Divine Favor alone gives +1 to attack and +1 damage at level 4 with a Wis 12+. And now with the divine feats in Complete Warrior that require the turning ability, like Divine Might and Divine Vigor, a serious weakness. Much better to just multi class to level 4 Fighter as Palis of Curiecean can do that.

To sum up, your version of the Curiecean Paladin is definately not naturaly stronger, contrary to how you state it still is.



One goes to hunt for evil mages and necromancy and the other one tries to spread the light of Avani.


Interesting ideas, though its probably still just easier to keep the core rules simple, give them Smite Chaos as they are LN, and leave all the variants for house rules.

Additionally, if the first pali type were to be hunting evil characters would likely be LG not LN like the Avani palis.

dedeefendi
06-04-2004, 06:30 PM
* First of all i didn't say curieceen paladins are strong. In my way of conversion they are weaker than any paladin. I mentioned that too and added that my players still insist on playing curieceen paladin. They love roleplaying that's all. I boost curieceen paladin with my house rules (not written or stabile). For example when a curieceen paladin comes into a trap or attacks to a stronger evil NPC for the goodness, I help him in the name of curieceen. This makes players feel strongest with the help of god and keeps them at the right side. You know a paladins way is like a razors edge :) . Moreover it adds more flavour to game.
* And I don't belive or accept that avani paladins are LN. They are the lights defenders. They can even be NG with goodness stronger than law in them but never neutral towards the evil spreading. If they were neutral than why are they going after the necromancers or evil mages? A neutral paladin is totaly unacceptable while paladins meaning doesn't support that and I haven't seen one in any campaign. Nesiere paladins are just not like paladins. I make them all diffren't and nonplayble. They are NPC's :D
* I have 3 evil curieceen paladins in my campaign. They are battlethirsty paladins and they still have their gods favor. I make them as killing machines. They cast detect good at will and smite those who are not good. They kill even the neutral and try to genoside the evil. I feel a rage in curieceen and it must go off sometimes. Those paladins know their own nature and stay away from civilized sites. One is in five peaks, one is in spiderfell and last one is in vosgard searching evil to kill.
* And if it would be the core rules then why birthright? Birthright lies in these diffrences. If you take them away than it is a small Forgetten Realms with strategy rules. If we would make houserules than why are you trying to convert birthright to 3rd edition. I already did it and i belive most of the DM's have done it too. I hate 3.5 and didn't mention it :D.
* I think this is all about the people and their way of look against paladins. I see them as the search and destroy machines of goodness. They can make diplomacy but never with evil creatures. Haelyn's Paladins are the ultimate law in Anurie. I think this way because of the divine aura+smite evil+spec. mount+spells. They are all combative. For example a paladin may raise an army from some viligars by boosting their morale and they shall feel no fear! A paladin is not bound to the laws of the mortals. They take the orders from their god and walk the path of them.
* Easier way is not good enough for FRP because you won't rule 4 games in a week. It would be 1 or 2. Than you can try the hard rules and add more flavour.
Thank you for reading.

tcharazazel
06-04-2004, 07:08 PM
Heheh, we got a crusader.

Well, if you check out what we’ve decided for the alignments of the paladins, it was to be the same as their god. Paladin Alignment poll (http://www.birthright.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=2515)



If they were neutral than why are they going after the necromancers or evil mages?

that was my point before in case you didn’t get it... don't forget Avani is LN so why would she care about evil so much? She cares about knowledge. Sides that, Ruornil really is the god who seeks to protect the world from the shadow, not Avani, go recheck their descriptions in the BCRS or original 2e BR.


Now, as for your house rules, like i said they are your variants, and your decidsion to put them in. I think they are rather cool, and interesting, however, originally all paladins were LG except Curiecean who was CG... so I'm not sure where you're getting this from:

And if it would be the core rules then why birthright? Birthright lies in these diffrences. If you take them away than it is a small Forgetten Realms with strategy rules.

BR is keeping its differences, just that your house rules seem to be free form, and with a good reason and/or descriptive story/explanation, then it will fly. However, to assume everyone is equally capable at role-playing would not be logical, and thus it helps to keep the rules for the general public simple, clear, and easy to follow. If you want to get into the whole allowing Paladin's to be any alignment they want, then its your prerogative and we're not gonna stop you, just don't expect them to be included in the new revision of the BR rules.

dedeefendi
06-04-2004, 10:47 PM
Thank you for the reply. Yeah we think paladin=crusader in Turkey :D
I didn't think that my house rules would be put in to the new edition. I wrote them only to give you some new examples. I'm the only Birthright DM in istanbul (I never heard of anpther person) its the biggest city in Turkey. And my house rules represents only me and my players way of birthright nothing more. As you can see from my join date I am a little old :D . I converted Birthright to 3rd edition when 3rd edition was created. They are the rules we embodied since the release of 3rd edition.
I won't insist on them as they are for example. I would only insist on the LN paladin thing :D . Please re-consider this. Neutral doesn't represents the honor, goodwill and passion in paladin. I said passion because no one can fight and die for a deity that blindly without passion.
I found CG curieceen paladins hot-tempered. They must be easy-going and hot tempered with that alignment paladins. I thought they can easily get out of control if they fight for goodness without strict laws and i get some of them out of control. Try it. It's so much fun to watch your players (paladin player) to roleplay with the evil paladin. They both fight for goodness. They both fight honorable but in diffrent ways :D
Read my examples again with thinking they are exmaples. You may find good ideas in them. I said them for this purpose.
Thank you again. May the blood be with you all :P

geeman
06-05-2004, 12:30 AM
At 12:48 AM 6/5/2004 +0200, dedeefendi wrote:



>I`m the only Birthright DM in istanbul (I never heard of anpther person)

>its the biggest city in Turkey.



I for one am happy to hear the views of the most prominent DM in all of

Turkey, and I think that pre-eminence should weigh heavily in favor of

"house rules" presented by such a luminary being included in the

BRCS. That`s particularly the case when the house rule(s) in question are

fairly brief and would probably not add a whole heck of a lot to the text

of the BRCS. When it comes to paladins of specific gods, for instance, it

might just say "Paladins of Avani can be of any lawful alignment" along

with text saying that those paladin`s smite chaos rather than evil.



Gary

RaspK_FOG
06-05-2004, 12:57 AM
I will disagree with the notion that a lawful person cannot be full of passion: passion is one thing, recklessness another. The way you describe it, you make it seem that passion means putting others above yourself (in this example); why should not ANY lawful alignment be passionate as thus? And why should the dispellers of shadow be good if the shadow is (by the definition of BR, mind you) more chaotic than evil? The SW has more of a chaotic tendency than an evil one.

Avani is the Lady of Truth in a sense; isn't that the epitome of Law? Even good people will lie if their agenda asks that they do so; but this is a chaotic act, not an evil one. To lie id chaotic; to deceive (purposefully lie as a means of reaching a goal instead of being put in a situation where liing might be best) is evil. Avani acts against deception as a means of acting against lies and trickery.

Draius
06-05-2004, 01:27 AM
Honor, goodwill, and passion. Of the three, goodwill I would consider an aspect of a Good Alignment. Honor is not necessarily the same for everyone. What an Anuirean considers honor, a Khinasi may not. But abiding by ones word, always keeping that word unless circumstances allow you to free yourself of obligation, could be honorable.

Passion can be represented through both Lawful and Chaotic Alignments. To devote yourself to Law, wholly and without question, is passionate. To demand such high standards from yourself and others requires passion. Chaos is a passion filtered through freedom. You choose your path. You decide what is right and wrong, which can conflict with Good and Evil.

Now look upon a Lawful Neutral Paladin. Passionate about Law, Truth, and Order. They do not walk the paths of Good nor Evil, but the route between, which can be an arduous path. The balance between such extremes as Good and Evil is something only a passionate person would undertake. It would be such passion that would drive humanity from a person, and leave them a tool of that Law.

dedeefendi
06-05-2004, 11:41 AM
Geeman, my english didn't help me to understand your words :D . Sorry but my english is not good enough.
RaspK_FOG, I said that paladins have the passion and it consists the meaning Lawful characters may have passion. May be my mind can't accept a neutral paladin that's all.
Draius, Honor can be diffrent in diffrent cultures as you said. May be a commom honour serves the paladinhood i don't know but its clear that my mind cant accept neutral paladin idea :D. I like your ideas lawful neutral paladin and passion thing. But I dont belive my players will accept the Avani Paladins; spreaders of the light; neutral :D . However it may be good in the new core rule book.
It's all about the paladins. A crusader cant accept them as neutral :D

geeman
06-06-2004, 11:30 AM
At 01:41 PM 6/5/2004 +0200, dedeefendi wrote:



>Geeman, my english didn`t help me to understand your words :D . Sorry but

>my english is not good enough.



I`m sure your English is better than my Turkish. What I was getting at is

that the "house rule" you use isn`t really a lot of text, so if there is a

concern that it will add too much space to the BRCS update then that`s not

really much of a worry.



I do, personally, find Avani more lawful than I think you and many other

people do. That has to do with a couple of interpretations of Khinasi

culture along with a somewhat metagame desire to distribute the gods among

the various alignments as evenly as possible and, therefore, to give them

paladins whose alignments are similarly distributed. It just makes for a

more "rounded" campaign IMO, for a pretty negligible amount of text and effort.



Gary

irdeggman
06-06-2004, 12:40 PM
Alright here is what we are coming up with for the codes of conduct for paladins with other than LG alignments for the paladin class revision:


Paladins of Avani must be lawful neutral in alignment and follow a Code of Conduct where they are charged to defend places of learning and to protect Avani’s people against those who would use magic against them. They also must respect legitimate authority and not act chaotically or without fore thought. All paladins of Avani know the Five Oaths of Service that the Khinasi require to be taken by all capable of casting true magic. They maintain and keep to these oaths as a point of honor, even though they do not undergo the same rituals that those taking them do. They are frequently used as hunters of those who refuse to take them but don’t hold other nationalities to the same standards since they are considered less civilized and knowing than are the Khinasi. They lose all class abilities if they fail to live by their code.


Paladins of Cuiraécen must be Chaotic Good. Paladins of Cuiraécen follow a Code of Conduct and they lose all class abilities if they ever willingly commit a cowardly or lawful act, or oppress a weak person. Additionally, a paladin’s code requires that she act with valor (not retreat, not using poison, and so forth), help those in need (provided they do not use the help for evil ends), and punish those who harm or threaten innocents.


Paladins of Nesirie must be neutral good in alignment and follow a Code of Conduct and they lose all class if they ever willingly commit an evil act or fail to show compassion to those in need. “Heal the injured, comfort the lost, and negotiate peace among all men” is the credo of Nesirie. While her priests usually make their temples near the water, her paladins travel freely to care for those in need and are often called upon to negotiate or at least oversee peace treaties.


Maybe this will help a bit in the discussion.

Osprey
06-07-2004, 03:53 AM
Paladins of Nesirie must be neutral good in alignment and follow a Code of Conduct and they lose all class if they ever willingly commit an evil act or fail to show compassion to those in need. “Heal the injured, comfort the lost, and negotiate peace among all men” is the credo of Nesirie. While her priests usually make their temples near the water, her paladins travel freely to care for those in need and are often called upon to negotiate or at least oversee peace treaties.


Ummm...so what does this creed have to do with being a paladin? That is, paladins are primarily warriors, with a zealous code of conduct and some divine powers to help in the smiting overlaid. Not much about this code even broaches on how fighting is central to a Neserien paladin's path. I think perhaps this could use a bit of revision - doesn't this code sound rather identical to what a Cleric of Neserie's code would be? Shouldn't paladins represent a more militant aspect than this? Others have mentioned the Knights Hospitaller as good inspirations for the Neserien paladins, which I think is a good source.

Osprey

irdeggman
06-07-2004, 11:35 AM
Since Nesirie is in essence a god of peace having 'militant' paladins really doesn't make as much sense. That was the reason for making it mostly the same as her clerics.

Nesirie is the diplomat of the god and since people had 'insisted' on the paladins being the ultimate in representing their gods (from alignment to ideals) it made sense to go this way.

Nesirie's paladins were the least warrior-like of any of the BR paladins, by excentuating the difference it makes them
fit the role of their deity better.

Someone needs to take the role of the traveling diplomat. Clerics of Nesire generally are limited to being near the sea or great bodies of water, paladins travel more freely and hence are more apt to fill that role. The hospitaler is more limited to healing the sick and not being the diplomat of the gods.

geeman
06-07-2004, 01:10 PM
At 02:40 PM 6/6/2004 +0200, irdeggman wrote information on alignment

variations and codes of conduct for various BR paladins.



Re: the varying alignments of the paladins by deity--love it.



Re: specific Codes for the paladins:



Avani: I like the idea that her paladins are connected to the Five

Oaths. It connects up the class to the culture, coincides with the

emphasis of that goddess and gives the class a specific focus. Nice.



Cuiraécen: I`m not sure how one might want to adjudicate a paladin having

commited a lawful act, so I might throw that out just to avoid

confusion. I think these paladins might also have a code regarding single

combat (it is more heroic) which would significantly influence such characters.



Nesirie: Healing is as good a focus for a character class as any other, but

since paladins are often considered warriors first and foremost I`d go with

something a little more knightly. To keep to a similar (but less

pacifistic) theme, Nesirie`s paladin`s might take charity, personal

poverty, protection of the innocent, defense of the weak, etc. very

seriously. Since Nesirie is likely the closest thing in the Cerilian

pantheon to a god/dess of travel her paladinhood might equate to the

Hospitallers, controlling castles on pilgrim routes, protecting various

holy sights, etc.



Not to beat a dead horse overmuch, but I`m a big fan of paladins of Ruornil

(NG) whose focus is protecting the world of light from creatures of the SW....



In general, I`d consider also throwing in some stuff about defending the

respective peoples for paladins of Haelyn and Avani (the other gods being a

bit more generic) and mention that paladins associated with specific

temples will likely have additional conduct/goals ascribed to them due to

that affiliation.



Gary

RaspK_FOG
06-07-2004, 02:17 PM
Remember here that fighting a worthy opponent with your budies is actually cowardly: how much of a fair fight is it if you get your whole army against ONE opponent? Thus, yes, paladins of Cuiraécen would face a WORTHY opponent one-on-one, actually honouring their opponent in this way. What valour is there, anyway, if 6 win against 1, heh? ;)

tcharazazel
06-07-2004, 02:55 PM
heheh, valour... the dead have no say as those who killed them write the history. They may have had valour even though they may have simply been shot full of arrows, does it matter? Heh, in time the humans will forget and it will just be another petty battle written off in history...

Though, from their viewpoint, they probably would all face him in single combat even if that means their deaths then... gotta love the foolish, makin life so easy.

geeman
06-07-2004, 03:50 PM
At 04:55 PM 6/7/2004 +0200, tcharazazel wrote:



>Though, from their viewpoint, they probably would all face him in single

>combat even if that means their deaths then... gotta love the foolish,

>makin life so easy.



There are plenty of examples of theologically motivated warriors of just

about every stripe exhibiting what might be called "suicidal

bravery." Cuiraecen`s paladins might be more or less inclined towards that

kind of thing depending on how one wants to play them, and though I think

it`s not a bad idea to put something like that in their code, I think it

would be important to note that they shouldn`t necessarily be foolish about

it. A character shouldn`t be required to do the nutty thing and take off

after an opponent that is wildly beyond his capacity (read: EL) while

insisting that nobody aid him in that combat.



So I guess if a single combat condition is going to be put into the class

for Cuiraecen`s paladins a note that it really only applies to combat with

opponents that are an appropriate challenge for the character; as in,

within a level or two of his/er EL.



Gary

RaspK_FOG
06-07-2004, 11:15 PM
Originally posted by "geeman"
There are plenty of examples of theologically motivated warriors of just about every stripe exhibiting what might be called "suicidal bravery." Cuiraecen`s paladins might be more or less inclined towards that kind of thing depending on how one wants to play them, and though I think it`s not a bad idea to put something like that in their code, I think it would be important to note that they shouldn`t necessarily be foolish about it. A character shouldn`t be required to do the nutty thing and take off after an opponent that is wildly beyond his capacity (read: EL) while insisting that nobody aid him in that combat.

So I guess if a single combat condition is going to be put into the class for Cuiraecen`s paladins a note that it really only applies to combat with opponents that are an appropriate challenge for the character; as in, within a level or two of his/er EL.

In case you have missed it, I mentioned a fight against a "worthy" opponent; this refers to an opponent they can take on single-handedly, neither below their capabilities (your average, typical D&D goblin should be thought of as sword fodder and acted upon appropriately by a paladin of Cuiraécen) nor beyond their ken (no much valour in living your dead body sink in the cold mud, heh?).

tcharazazel
06-07-2004, 11:51 PM
Oh yeah sure, they may all be the same EL... however, their equipment could make a big difference. Like the big bad guy has 2 unholy bane weapons vs humans and adamantine full plate w/ mod fort while the paladins of Cuiraécen don't really have any magic weapons or armor. Heh, it would be their deaths really, even though they are the same EL.

So, couldn't just use EL to determine what is worthy i mean.

And I never said they would go into single combat with someone beyond them, now did I. I was just pointing out how much more risky that it would be to face the opponent single handed, rather than to all just gang up on him.

RaspK_FOG
06-08-2004, 12:22 AM
I was not referring to your comments, I was referring to Gary's. And no, EL takes into account the CR of all creatures, so it would be best to say that the measure is the creature's CR. Even then, the DMG and the appropriate SRD entries have a whole bunch of information regarding improving mosters, and it is clearly pointed out (as it always was) that the CR of any creature is relative to the situation it is in.

For example, a frost worm has a CR of 12. Now, its Death Throes ability happens to be one of the most devastating abilities a monster can have, and its deals 12d6 points of cold damage and 8d6 piercing damage on everyone within 100 feet. The mighty mage who specialises in enlarged fireball spells and flight spells will surely have no trouble facing a frost worm alone. On the other hand, a 15th-level paladin of Cuiraécen would be in for a lot of trouble if he chose to face such a beast, so he trusts that his robe-clad fellow wizard will be just fine and wills his steed to stay calm as he is ready to keep the worm at bay if need be.