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RaspK_FOG
05-07-2004, 12:14 AM
After starting that thread concerning FR and Shadow material from it and GH, I early found myself with a serious dilemma: how should I rewrite the Shadow-dancer?

In my eyes, there is no issue whether he should be rewritten; that is a given. However, I want to hear any ideas you people have before I make my next step; sorry if starting polls without permission is not allowed, since I haven't noticed it being so.

RaspK_FOG
05-07-2004, 09:34 PM
I am making this post to (literaly) attract your attention.

I know you may well not be interested, but I beg of you to make the effort and post soem remarks on the whole subject! I have a few ideas, but I need some basis before I present anything here; I know I could easilly make a write-up by changing the various abilities and stuff, but I want to make something people will be able to adapt to their liking with little problem or hesitation.

tcharazazel
05-07-2004, 10:00 PM
heheh, I already put my vote in Rasp, for halflings only.

Regarding the Summon Shadow ability:
As shadows are normally CE in the Monsters Manual, and shadowdancers were able to summon shadows that were their own allignment (thus possibly geting LG shadows) it doesnt seem impossible for them to summon them in BR with the same allignment. However, I would recomend offering a good explanation for it, because currently they have none in the prestiege class description. A possiblity is that the shadow they summon is really the spirit of an ancestor.

RaspK_FOG
05-07-2004, 10:45 PM
I'll take that into account: Halfling and Change Summon Shadow.

If I make him a halfling, the question of what would then be done is simple: Shadow-walker and other similar feats should be granted if you ask me, and the Summon Shadow ability would become Summon Ancestor Shadow (Great idea, really! ;)), which would summon help in the form of one of the halfling's long deceased family members. This is also thematically fitting, since halflings not only tranversed the Shadow World, they also had ties with the Shadow World in the past that would explain ancestral souls in shadow form helping them.

tcharazazel
05-07-2004, 10:51 PM
looks cool :) glad to help

geeman
05-07-2004, 11:20 PM
Personally, I don`t care for the SD`s ability to "teleport" through shadow

in relation to BR. It`s a little hokey in any setting, but in BR it seems

innappropriate to have it be the ability of a character class. As a blood

ability it makes a bit more sense, since that`s one of the thematic roles of

the setting (and is pretty much the catch-all exception to all rules in BR)

but as a class ability? Not so much.



It`s important to bear in mind that the SW (or the Plane of Shadow in 3e

MotP terms) is used a little differently in the campaign setting. Passing

into the SW is more of a one-way ticket. Sure, one can come back, but it

doesn`t have the same dimensional, time/space manipulation role that the

planes do in other settings. The SW is more of a dark or warped reflection

of the world of light. Using it for instantaneous transport strikes me as

incompatable.



There is, however, the Travel blood ability which might be equated in some

sense. At least, I`ve done a little something like that myself in my

system. It seems to work (and doesn`t have the thematic issue) when

incorporated that way.



IMO Shadows (the creatures) should also remain definitively evil in BR given

the opposing role of the SW and the way creatures like Shadows spawn from

it. One could assume the Shadows were created by the extraordinary power of

the SD, of course, but what I`m suggesting is that a non-Shadow World based

shadow would kind of miss the point.



There could, however, be some sort of prestige class that was somewhat

similar to the SD for the BR setting, but I don`t think SD really works.



Gary

RaspK_FOG
05-08-2004, 12:38 AM
Sorry for the problem in presenting the material here, Gary. The main issue I run this poll is based on the fact I had a roguish halfling prestige class in mind which grants its follower abilities through bonus feats (Shadow Jump becoming Shadow Walker, etc.) from the start. My main problem was the Summon Shadow ability, but the whole idea as presented by Tcharazazel could work; maybe not calling them Shadows? Whatever...

In any case, I am thinking of calling the class the Shadow Traversor for obvious reasons. The current idea I have in mind is: He must be a survivalistic halfling.
He gets a better Hit Die for obvious reasons: d8.
Is granted Shadow-related feats as bonus feats.
Has high Fortitude and Reflex base saves.
He gets a roguish BAB.
No spell-casting.
He gains the spell-like ability to make a summons for help to his dead ancestors whose spirits come to aid him; an appropriate name should be given, but they would count as incorporeal undead in any case of the summoners alignment. I insist on this ability on a moral basis (the fact that halflings moved out of the Shaodw World means that their dead are still burried there!), so I don't think I will be backed off easilly on that point; thank you, Tcharazazel, for a wonderful idea that brought much inspiration!

tcharazazel
05-08-2004, 03:27 AM
Glad to help ya rasp :)

mayb the Shadow dancer could get those Shadow Walker type feats every level that he would have normally gotten the step in shadows abilities? I bet thats what you were planning :)

RaspK_FOG
05-08-2004, 01:32 PM
I was actually looking for a mechanic to implement the way he would be getting those feats... What you suggest coud be best, by I will have to check it out before agreeing to such a suggestion, however cool it sounds.

Again, your help, Gary and T'Char Azazel, is invaluable. :)

Don E
05-08-2004, 04:08 PM
My take on the halflings is that desipte their connection with what the humans in Cerilia call the Shadow World, the halflings have no special powers when it comes to shadows. The place the halflings come from is described as a pleasant place, with the encroachment of the Shadow as a relatively recent phenomneon, and one which the halflings have fled. The ability to pass into the Shadow World is not because of an affinity to shadows, but an affinity to their own home world.

And why does halflings detect evil, undead and necromancy? While the detect evil is a dodgy issue, the other two I see as a result of the halflings noticing the relevant phenomenon being powered by something on their home world, not due to its inherent 'badness' or it being related to anything with shadows. IMC I would allow them to have similar capabilities with regards to anything connected to their home world, be it spells powered by the encroaching shadow or anything else.

My 2 coppers.
Cheers,
E

The Jew
05-08-2004, 08:35 PM
I have almost no knowledge of 2ed and am basing all my arguments off of the BRCS.

The shadow world was always a mutable world, even before it was warped into the shadow world. That is why all conjuration and illusion spells draw their power from it, even if they are not creating shadow based effects. The halflings are still drawing their powers from the same source, but it has to be taken into account that the source has been warped. That warping, along with the time spent in Cerilia, has cost them many of their powers but it may have also altered some of their others to be more shadow based. Where before they may have been able to step into the fairie world whenever they wished, their power has been weakened by requireing a feat and needing a check, but has also been warped by the fact that it is easier to do so in darker areas.

I like the idea of changing shadow jump to the standard bonus feats for enetering the shadow world, with maybe an extra super feat available at 9th or 10th level.
here would be my suggestion for special powers by level.

1st level: Hide in plain site (same as original, when near a shadow they are able to tap into the shadow world to create a slight illusion which gives them the oppurtunity to hide even when they are out in the open)
2nd level: Evasion, Uncanny dodge
3rd Level: Summon ancestral spirit
4th Level: bonus feat
5th Level: Defensibe Roll, Improved Uncanny dodge
6th Level: Slippery Mind, Summon ancestral spirit
7th Level: Bonus feat
8th Level: Suman ancestral spirit
9th level: Evasion
10th Level: bonus feat
(the bonus feats must be Shadow Guide, Improved Shadow Guide, Shadow walker, Improved shadow walker, and one or two other powerful ones to be determined later)
Improved shadow walker
Requirements: halfling, +13 wisdom, Shadow walker feat
+4 bonus to check for halflings to enter or leave the shadow world.

Dark vision and shadow illusion were nixed because I think 3 bonus feats are better than shadow jump 160 ft., and you were planning on giving them an extra good save.

RaspK_FOG
05-08-2004, 10:30 PM
Thank you for your help in this project; I really wanted to implement a variant of the DMG prestige class, and the idea is almost fleshed out as it seems. You have my gratitude. ^_^

As an answer to you, Don E and The Jew, I got an interesting idea reading your responces: what if the Shadow Traversor does not tap onto the Necromantic powers, however benevolent or non-manevolent they may be, and instead use Illusion? Summon Ancestor Shadow would indeed be Summon Ancestor Spirit, only this would produce an incorporeal Illusion [Shadow] effect. The ability would otherwise be like the Shadow Conjuration spell; caster level is equal to the Shadow Traversor's class level, plus the highest caster level he has from one class with Shadow Conjuration in its spell list.

As for the ability to hide in shadows, there is a spell that fits the role pretty neatly: the 3rd-level Night Domain spell, Night's Embrace. Check it out on the BRCS. ;)

I will think over it, but I like it as it seems to go.

irdeggman
05-09-2004, 04:19 AM
Rasp,

Another tie for the shadow dancer is to actually manipulate the seeming and stretch its effects into the 'real world'. This could give it more of a BR feel. THe seeming is not just illusion, even though it appears to be. Things are exactly as they appear in the SW they just change frequently and are not the same as they are in the 'real world'.

RaspK_FOG
05-09-2004, 10:48 PM
Well, Shadow Conjuration does exactly that... :blink: Unless you mean that's what he does, and that he does not summon an ancestor? Well, what I had in mind was more like: "I summon forth the spirit of my great-grand-father!", which actually is a more like a sentient result of what he regards as most important created out of shadow-stuff; hence the alignment stats, the reason the shadows cannot be turned, etc. They are not "real" shadows in most senses! On the other hand, they are not like the results of Shadow Conjuration in that they have the full stats of a shadow, plus turning immunity, if believed to be real shadows (Will special, DC 14 + Charisma bonus). The reason they have their standard stats is that they still are shadow-stuff, which tends to harm creatures; the reason they do not do as much if disbelieved is that they are not real shadows but what results out of the Seeming. We could use the same DC modifiers as for the Mantle of the Night spell:

+1 forsaken area
+1 winter
+2 night
-2 day
-1 summer
-1 civilised area



As for the idea of a really good ability at 10th level, 1/week spell-like ability of Shadow Walk seems fine to me...

Remember, spell-like abilities are really cool things for the DM, because any creature must have a Charisma score of 10 + level equivalent of the ability (referring to the spell level assigned to Sor/Wiz, Clr, Drd, Brd, Pal, Rgr, at that order, unless defined as an ability similar to a caster of that class).

irdeggman
05-10-2004, 10:22 AM
Rasp,

What I meant was insert into the write up that the shadow dancers' special abilities all stem from manipulating the seeming and not directly from manipulating shadows. It makes it much more BR specific, ties more into the vary nature of the Shadow World and allows more real effects instead of merely illusion, etc.

RaspK_FOG
05-10-2004, 11:38 PM
Dear [B][I]Irdeggman[/I][/B],
I feel such shame, with you thinking I didn't have such a simple, campaign-related issue in mind when I made my suggestions and accepted others' in this here poll. The insult is too great for me now to answer you in the same terms.

GOOD DAY! :angry:

:lol: Sorry about that; could not help it... Anyway, thank you for pointing that out in case I forgot (Heavens forbid :P).

tcharazazel
05-10-2004, 11:41 PM
Yeah irdeggman, that's a cool way to describe the Shadow Dancer.

RaspK_FOG
05-16-2004, 11:50 PM
I will see what I will do... Probably post a write-up by up to the end of the week, but I can't promise anything. Not that it seems to be such a matter to most!

:P Just kidding...

Azulthar
05-20-2004, 09:43 AM
*** Sorry, I should have read the entire thread before I posted. Everything you guys are suggesting is looking fine. Ignore this post :) ***


A Shadowdancer in BR? I figure it's not the one described in the DMG, cause that wouldn't fit BR at all.

Although my first reaction was "not Shadowdancer at all!", I think they could be done in BR with the following criteria:

1.) Halfling only. This emphasizes the unique shadow-nature of BR-Halflings. They're the only ones who could have developed such an 'exotic' class, due to their shadow-legacy, IMO.

2.) Less flamboyant/exotic! I cannot stress this enough. Don't make him the typical 3e edition 'kewl' prestige-class, that doesn't fit BR. Especially the flamboyant part, that would be awful.

Unfortunately I don't have my DMG here, so I can't look the SD up for specific class features that should be changed. I wouldn't add spellcasting abilities, that's a rather boring way of making a prestige class work, especially in a low-magic setting such as Birthright.

All of this is, of course, IMHO.

- Azulthar

RaspK_FOG
06-04-2004, 02:45 AM
I will wait for a few more votes, unless I find out that others do not post stuff or things; then the decision will be final from my part, and I will present my idea for discussion.

No, Irdeggman, I am not forgetting what I have to do; I just deal with things left undone. :P