Mongoose Publishing - Bloodline

[Elrond]

It looks very much like Birthright... Someone knows more about it?

http://www.mongoosepublishing.com/images/logos/bloodline.jpg


The life of the common folk is assailed from all fronts and, while adventurers may prove a solution to invasion by monsters and an oppressive governor, they are in no position to help them against a harsh winter, a poor harvest, plagues or, in the most extreme cases, war. Such protection is the responsibility of the people’s liege, be it chieftain, king or emperor. It is the liege upon whose head weighs the consequences of a poor decision, upon whom the responsibility lies to protect his land from invaders and who can muster the power of that same land in a spiritual bond that legitimises his rule.

Wielding the power of his ancient bloodline, a true liege inherits the heavy responsibility to dictate the fates of his subjects, to place his mark on the weave of history and ultimately to pass down such noble heritage to his successors, so that they may rule with wisdom and strength.

In this boxed set, you will find everything you need to create and manage enormous kingdoms, to wage war, to forge trade and diplomatic alliances which will last centuries and to ensure your character’s places in the records of history.

The three main books give players all the tools they need to create powerful characters whose actions determine the fates of thousands as well as provide rules to help players manage whole kingdoms in fantasy worlds. The rules for characters and kingdoms can be separated so that they can be used in any pre-existing campaign, with an easy to adapt system for managing resources and direction the actions of an entire population, all the while leaving the door open for old-style adventuring. The third book deals with Tarasen, the official campaign world of Bloodlines, as well as its six great nations which provide a fertile ground for political as well as military conflict, the bread and butter of a liege’s life.

The boxed set also contains a set of cards detailing the units of an army, usable in the Bloodlines epic combat system, as well as maps of battlefields in which to stage the clash of armies, in addition to the larger maps of Tarasen and its territories.

Link: http://www.mongoosepublishing.com/detail.p...loodline#others (http://www.mongoosepublishing.com/detail.php?qsID=440&qsSeries=Bloodline#others)

[Don E]

Sounds like somebody with their own version of BR avoiding the legal tangles by setting in a different world. Should be interesting, and if I'm not mistaken it will be a product bought by many on this list.

[irdeggman]

Depending on how new the information is will be interesting.

If their bloodline information is based on (or too similar to):

1) the Dragon #315 info (owned by Paizo)

2) or similar to anything posted on Birthright.net (joint owned by the author and WotC - see the pinned post concerning "official fansites")

if it is entirely new or based on UA then there is really legally wrong - it just has that appearance

Oh yeah and unless it it OGC we can't use it due to 2) above

[tcharazazel]

Well, I clicked the link and it when you pull up the info it has the option to Preorder it... So, it hasnt even come out yet it seems.

[Birthright-L]

Geez, Ird. Lighten up. Someone`s putting out a game that seems cool

and is exactly the sort of thing we`re interested in reading, playing,

and talking about. I for one really want to pick it up...



--Lord Rahvin

[Arjan]

hmmm the red B of bloodline seems very familiar to... not even to mention the cover it self.... looks pretty much the same as WotC had in mind for the revised BR rulebook.

Arjan

[RaspK_FOG]

Well... most people think of me as a rules-master (and thankfully not as a rules-lawyer), mainly due to the fact that I have studied the systems I play with extensively so that I understand the underlying mechanics perfectly (this is not meant to be the way of saying "I am superior than the rest of you; bow before me!", just the way of saying "I have realised how the math works and I can't stand reading porrly written junk!"), and I have to tell you that most of Mongoose works, on the mechanics side, is utter rubbish! They at least understand the way BAB and BSB work, unlike others whose work I've (unfortunately) read...

On the other hand, most of the books they publish is thematically good in one way or another, even if they miss the stereotypes by far; and since their work is supposed to be able to fit in almost any setting, it is bad that they differentiate their work from the typical, but they at least are not the same old stuff!

[irdeggman]

Originally posted by Birthright-L@May 5 2004, 02:00 PM
Geez, Ird. Lighten up. Someone`s putting out a game that seems cool

and is exactly the sort of thing we`re interested in reading, playing,

and talking about. I for one really want to pick it up...



--Lord Rahvin

I wasn't saying it wouldn't be worth picking up or even using (I think I'll have to get myself a copy).

I was only trying to make sure that people understand the 'restrictions' that Birthright.net is operating under before they start to say "incorporate this in the BRCS" or other similar phrasing or start to post individual write-ups that utilize information from the book (or any other one for that matter).

It is interesting - 6 races (I wonder if they have the Masetaens ;) ).

[geeman]

At 10:27 PM 5/5/2004 +0200, irdeggman wrote:



>I was only trying to make sure that people understand the `restrictions`

>that Birthright.net is operating under before they start to say

>"incorporate this in the BRCS" or other similar phrasing or

>start to post individual write-ups that utilize information from the book

>(or any other one for that matter).



Mongoose publishes a lot of their material under the OGL. I don`t know

what they`ll do with this particular product, but if they hold to their

previous standards the material that isn`t subject to the D20 SRD will be

open content--and the stuff that is part of the SRD is already pretty

openly available. Descriptions of races and prestige classes are closed

content in their texts.



Gary

[irdeggman]

Thanks for some background on the company Gary. OGC is different than OGL. OGC is a fairly recent concept from WotC that has more open application than does OGL. OGC means that anything that is OGC can be reused and 'sold' by someone else in way desired. OGL material is still 'owned' by the parent company and can't be used in that manner although it can be referenced, etc.

Again the problem is with the how Official fan site contract restrictions place anything posted here as joint owned by the author and WotC, well OGL is still owned soley by the author so what could conceivably happen is that 'we' copy some of the Bloodlines material (assuming it is OGL and post it as part of the BRCS (or something similar) - well then WotC can claim it as their IP and 'sell' it, giving credit to the BR net authors as joint authors, etc., etc. I think I'm going to go crazy here. . . .

The only good lawyer is one at the bottom of the lake ;)

[tcharazazel]

Hahaha, aint that the truth.

[geeman]

At 11:50 AM 5/6/2004 +0200, irdeggman wrote:



>OGC is different than OGL. OGC is a fairly recent concept from WotC that

>has more open application than does OGL. OGC means that anything that is

>OGC can be reused and `sold` by someone else in way desired. OGL material

>is still `owned` by the parent company and can`t be used in that manner

>although it can be referenced, etc.



From what I can tell OGC (Open Game Content) is simply stuff released

under the OGL (Open Game License.) At least, that`s how it appears to be

defined in the OGL. OGC is owned by the author but the point in

designating material OGC under the OGL is that anyone can reproduce that

material freely. "In consideration for agreeing to use this License, the

Contributors grant You a perpetual, worldwide, royalty-free, non-exclusive

license with the exact terms of this License to Use, the Open Game

Content." At least, that appears to be Mongoose`s understanding of the

concept as noted in one of their texts "In fact, material that is strictly

rules related is Open Content. You can use this material in your own

works, as long as you follow the conditions of the Open Game License. You

can copy the material to your website or even put it in a book that you

publish and sell." Basically, anybody can sell (or otherwise distribute)

material by identifying it as OGC, including a copy of the license, and

noting the owner of the OGC copyright.



That is, the game mechanical aspects of such a text would be useable. One

could not use the material that is Product Identity--generally, PI is

campaign material. If their write up of bloodlines contains things that

are specific to the campaign (their versions of bloodline derivations, for

instance) then Mongoose`s permission is required to reproduce that

material. However, the actual rules for bloodlines are OGC and can be

reproduced freely. The concept and game mechanics of bloodline derivations

would be OGC, but the bloodlines themselves would be PI. Generally, the

Mongoose folks tend to designate a lot more of their material OGC than

Product Identity. Nobody can say until they have the actual text, of

course, but it`s entirely possible material from that product will be

freely useable.



Which is still not to say the book will be of any use to the BR community,

however. I`ve come across lots of promos that sounded like they were going

to do a BR-like thing, but when the actual product came out the system

presented looked nothing like BR. In this case, it might be more or less

inspired by BR, but when it comes to the portrayal of a "bloodline" in a

RPG there`s really not much in the term alone that gives us a lot of hints

as to what the actual themes, rules or concepts will be.



>Again the problem is with the how Official fan site contract restrictions

>place anything posted here as joint owned by the author and WotC, well OGL

>is still owned soley by the author so what could conceivably happen is

>that `we` copy some of the Bloodlines material (assuming it is OGL and

>post it as part of the BRCS (or something similar) - well then WotC can

>claim it as their IP and `sell` it, giving credit to the BR net authors as

>joint authors, etc., etc. I think I`m going to go crazy here. . . .



So you can`t post anything that is OGC as part of the contract with WotC,

or is it that doing so would require putting a copy of the OGL and

copyright notices in the BR update?



Unless there is some additional condition in the WotC/Birthright.net

contract that says no OGL material can be used then my understanding is

that anything OGC is fair game for a BR update (or anyone else, for that

matter.) Material already defined as OGC isn`t redefined as IP because it

came out on birthright.net and IP material isn`t made OGC because it

employs OGC rules. That is, if Mongoose came up with a bloodline system

that had whole new OGC game mechanics then the BR update could use those

game mechanics as OGC, but the material produced that was BR-specific would

remain IP if properly identified in the work--which one has to do under the

OGL anyway.



Gary

[irdeggman]

From the WotC site:

Q: Can a work be derived from both Open Game Content and Product Identity?
A: Yes, but since the Open Game License only gives you the right to copy, modify and distribute Open Game Content, unless you had a separate license from whomever owned the Product Identity, you cannot legally copy or distribute a work that contained such material without a separate agreement from the owners of the Product Identity

Link to the OGL Faq at WotC:

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=d20/oglfaq/20040123f

And that gets me back to my earlier comment on lawyers. IT reminds me of trying the define the word "The" from the Clinton days.

[geeman]

At 10:48 PM 5/6/2004 +0200, irdeggman wrote:



> Q: Can a work be derived from both Open Game Content and Product Identity?

> A: Yes, but since the Open Game License only gives you the right to

> copy, modify and distribute Open Game Content, unless you had a separate

> license from whomever owned the Product Identity, you cannot legally copy

> or distribute a work that contained such material without a separate

> agreement from the owners of the Product Identity

>

> Link to the OGL Faq at WotC:

>

>

>http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=d20/oglfaq/20040123f

>

> And that gets me back to my earlier comment on lawyers. IT reminds me of

> trying the define the word "The" from the Clinton days.



It was "...what the definition of `is` is."



In any case, the question above addresses whether you could make a product

that used BOTH the OGC and PI aspects of a work. That is, the product uses

parts of a work parts of which are designated OGC and others PI. In that

case, one has to have a special license with the owner of the PI material

because one always has to have a special license from the owner of any PI

material. If the derivative work didn`t use the PI parts, however, it

wouldn`t be a violation. Point being making part of a work OGC and part PI

does not make the whole thing OGC, and something can be designated both OGC

and PI at the same time in which case it is, basically, PI. That way

someone might identify their work by saying "The contents of this text are

OGC, and the following parts are PI" without losing the PI designation

since it is "clearly identified" (in that vague, legalistic way) as both.



The very next Q & A clarifies the important bit for use in a BR product:



Q: If I identify something as Product Identity that was previously

distributed as Open Game Content, does the material become Product Identity?



A: No. Once content has been distributed as Open Game Content, it cannot

become Product Identity, even if you are the original creator of the content.



So if they designate their bloodline system OGC and not PI it could appear

in a BR text, or anybody else`s text if released under the OGL. Such a BR

text would be both OGC and PI with the Mongoose rules OGC and the BR

materials PI, and would have to have that "clearly identified" somehow in

the text.



If one were to use Mongoose`s _Seafarer`s Handbook_ in a BR update, for

instance, everything in that book is OGC except the descriptions of races,

prestige classes, and the illustrations, pictures and diagrams. Everything

else can appear in a BR update. The rules on ship construction, the ships

used as examples, naval battles, monsters, feats, use of skills, spells,

etc. just so long as its origin is duly noted as belonging to Mongoose, the

OGL is printed in the back of the book, and which bits of the work are OGL

are "clearly identified."



Of course, that`s only relevant if they designate their bloodline material

as OGC and not PI, which they _tend_ to do a lot of, but we`ll have to see.



Gary