View Full Version : The Shadow Weave

05-03-2004, 10:57 PM
As it has been discussed earlier on other topics, the Shadow Weave and the Shadow World overlap in some parts; and the two of them are thematically close to one another.

Too close not to consider some cross-over, actually...

I am asking if you are interested in creating new material for BR based on material from FR regarding the Shadow Weave. This material won't be cheated from FR books; rather, it will be what will be thought based on the thematic ideas that are so closely tied to the Shadow as a vaster concept in fantasy.

These themata will mostly be based on the various feats created for FR as well as the Shadow Adept. The Shadow Dancer could also be changed to more closely match the Shadow World motif in place of the Ethereal Plane.

05-03-2004, 11:16 PM
That would be cool, however, what ideas specifically do you have in mind? as I dont have any FR stuff im a little at a loss as to what you mean.

05-03-2004, 11:25 PM
Such material includes enhanced spell-casting ability in regard to necromantic and other effects with some drawbacks, manipulation of the Shadow, and more. Spells should also be added to the above list, but I forgot...

Spells that would fit the whole concept would be various [Shadow] spells, and some spells I have designed; even some spells of my own [Blood] descriptor could be included, but they would need a little tweaking. I will post some things soon enough for evaluation, but this will have to wait a couple of days at least.

05-04-2004, 12:19 AM
ok cool, can hardly wait.

Raesene Andu
05-04-2004, 12:48 AM
Actually, the stuff in the FR about the Shadow Weave is copied from BR (after the release of the Shadow Stone novel). I don't believe it was even mentioned in FR before this novel was released.

So what we'd be doing would be copying FR material that is in fact BR material that has been converted to FR and then converting it back to BR...

That said, I'd be interested in seeing anything you've done. I did some work on a Shadow Mage class for Aduria, which was basically the Shadow Adept expanded to a full class and then convert to BR...

05-04-2004, 09:51 AM
Remember though that the shadow world is based on Seeming (Illusion) and not on the superficial-obvious comparison to necromancy. The shadow world has a lot of undead in it, but that really has nothing to do with the SW itself but rather on the rulers of the world and Azrai's influence there (one of the reasons that the halflings fled in the first place). Per Bloodspawn, elves actually came from the SW also (see the Sie entry for more info on this one).

The Shadow spells from the PHB give a much better focus on the magic of the SW, IMO, since they are Illusion spells., i.e., Illusion [Shadow].

05-05-2004, 08:20 AM
To put it simply: First off, I know that FR got that from BR; the fact that Rich Baker was one of the integral redesigners of FR for 3e/3.5e says a lot...
Secondly, I know what you mean, Irdeggman, when you mention the whole seeming stuff; what I have in mind is mostly a collection of Illusion (Glammer) and (Phantasm) spells (cannot remember if any other type should do the trick right now, I have just woken up here in Greece), [Shadow] spells, especialy some potentially powerful ones, and a few Necromancy ones as well, most probably of the latter descriptor. The reason I include Necromancy spells is that the Shadow World must have had a profound number of changes after the Cold Rider's... how should I put it... ah, yes; influencial strategic maneouvres. ^_^

Raesene Andu
05-05-2004, 11:07 AM
I would agree, necromancy is now a part of the SW, despite its original magic being based on Illusion. I have always be under the impression that the undead in the SW only arrived after Deismaar (or more correctly, at the moment Deismaar was destroyed). The novel Greatheart supports this idea, suggesting that Azrai's legions that were caught in the explosion at Deismaar and most ended up in the SW. The Lost, Azrai's chief lieutenant's certainly did, but perhaps because they were already undead at Deismaar.

Deismaar changed the nature of the SW, corrupted it. I'm not sure if I should post the info Rich Baker sent the BRCS Development team on the SW or not... :) Anyway, the situation described in Greatheart probably best reflects the idea Rich had of the SW...

(The reason I'm not sure about posting Rich's document, is that I'd like to keep some secrets for a possible book on the SW sometime in the future).

05-05-2004, 07:13 PM
As I havent read Greatheart, so would you mind clearing up these questions and conceptions I got of the SW? Thanks


Did the New Gods simply take over the Old Gods realms?

Were the spirits of the dead passing through the SW to get to their Dieties' SW realms prior to Deismaar, just like they are doing now?

If so, would some be able to come back to "haunt" people prior to Deismaar?

The point of this is, why couldnt Azrai have begun corruptng the SW before Deismaar, instead of the gods death causing the sudden change?

I believe that Azrai could have easily begun the corruption of the SW prior to Deismaar, and I wouldnt be surprised if his realm was the prime example of that. Now, as he was the strongest of the gods it makes sense that he would have the largest realm. And given his personality he would probably be expanding it continually. This could also be another reason the gods were to willing to face him as their realms may have started to get threatened by his expansion, and loyal souls could have been captured by Azrai + minions and corrupted into undead.

To me, the main reason why Deismaar would be a good reason for the large change in the SW is due to the huge influx of souls going to the SW. Thus when their Gods die in the big bang, the followers of a god get lost and wander the SW as spirits, undead ect. as they no longer see the path to their god's realm because their god can no longer show them the way.

However, just because this is probably the larged most dramatic change occuring in a short period of time, doesnt mean that it is the only change as Azrai could have begun the spread of corruption in the SW prior to that. In addition, Azrai could have easily anticipated the death of the other gods (though not his own) causing the huge influx of souls from the battle to suddenly become lost and easy pickings for his minions in the SW to convert into undead to use against the tribes.

Ok, so how far off base am I with these conceptions?

05-05-2004, 07:53 PM
I don't want to have my words read as rude, but I would like to ask that such Q&A and material is passed via either PMs or emails. Sorry for the inconvinience.

In the mean time, I think we could work on the Shadow-dancer, who is indeed a very strange matter of discussion when it comes to BR; while in settings like GH & FR it can be perfectly normal for good-aligned shadows to keep company to a monkish rogue it is largely absurd for BR, where shadows are thoroughly corrupted by all means, companionship with such creatures for good-aligned people is out of the question, and jumping through the Shadow would be more than simply risky, but life-threatening instead!

On the other hand, you may like this cuty (;)):

Mantle of the Night
Conjuration [Darkness, Evil]
Level: Sor/Wiz 7
Components: S, M
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: 1 round/level (D)
When you cast this spell, you conjure swirling shadows and inky darkness from the Shadow World that make your form less discernible and more intimidating. While the spell is in effect, you receive a +10 circumstance bonus on Intimidate checks and you are considered to have full concealment (50% miss chance on all attack rolls). Furthermore, any creature that successfully attacks you in melee while standing in an area you threaten or makes any sort of contact with you takes 2d6 points of temporary Strength damage (Fortitude negates, DC 10 + 1/2 caster level + spell-casting ability bonus).
Material Component: Black ink made from blood and shadow essence poison (Craft [alchemy], DC 25 to craft the ink).

05-05-2004, 08:20 PM
The 'corruption' of the SW had to have started prior to Deismaar. See Bloodspawn for some of the details of Azrai's influence - which started prior to Deismaar.

See also the split of the Sie/Sidhe, which occurred prior to Deismaar.

Also when did the halfling migration to Cerillia start to occur? Prior to Deismaar - since they were around earlier than the fall of the old gods and they were fleeing the corruption in their home.

I tend to think that Deismaar forced the dead to remain or to be drawn to the Shadow World. A strong possibility (beared out by Bloodspawn) is that the SW is actually the source of life in Aebryinnis so when Deismaar happened thelost and other undead were drawn back to the source of life (i.e., the SW). I don't necessarily think that undeath is an inherent part of the SW only a result of other things.

The Seeming is more than just Illusion, although it is strongly based in Illusion. So having some necromancy associated with the SW could work, since necromancy is more than just undead (creating or destroying life, etc.). The main focus of the SW is that of ever changing reality so if that is what is kept at its core then it all works. I guess Chaos themed magic would also apply.

05-05-2004, 09:46 PM
:( No remarks for me work... *sniff*

05-05-2004, 10:39 PM
heheh, well rasp i was being polite in posing it as questions.

As for your spell, maybe include the cleric domain Evil in those who can cast it. And what would a spell like Sunburst do to it? Dispel it maybe? Probably good to put in any counters to it just to be clear, if there will be any that is.

05-05-2004, 11:18 PM
Hmm... Isn't Sunbeam a 7th-level spell (lent my PHB to an awfully good newbie role-player that is not yet accustomed to the rules, sorry)? If so, if Sunbeam is targeted at you while Mantle of the Night is in effect, Mantle of the Night is dispelled and Sunbeam deals no damage to you, while a Sunburst or other spell of equal or higher level dispel the Mantle of the Night and work normally; they can counter Mantle of the Night.

05-05-2004, 11:23 PM
Yep, Sunbeam is 7th level.

Mantle of the Night seems like a cool spell to me.

05-06-2004, 10:05 AM
Yup it is a cool spell. Might have some restriction on when in can be cast though - like it is less effective (has it's DC affected) by the Shadow World proximity conditions.

tcharazazel, the way it is written Evil is a descriptor and not a domain. Except in some very off center books (including some FR ones IIRC) there is one and only one spell of each level for a domain so if it is listed as a domain spell it gives more than one at 7th level. I think the descriptor works fairly well.

But if enough 'shadow' spells are generated the I can easily see creating a Shadow Domain for Eloele and including this spell on it.

05-06-2004, 10:08 AM
yeah i know, however, I didnt want to allow the possibility of a mistake :)

And yeah, I was thinking that also Ading the Shadow domain. I went looking for it in the BCRS, heheh, just hoping I had forgotten about it. Though by the looks of it, some of the new domains dont even have any new BR spells in them and others have about 1-3. So, I bet we can come up with a spell list for the Shadow domain easily enough.

Or... we could do the easy thing and just put it in her current Night domain as the 7th level spell instead of mass invisiblity. And even just rename the Night domain the Shadow domain.

05-06-2004, 01:15 PM
A dream coming true? Perhaps, but I would be really honoured by something like that! :D

As for modifiers to save DC, I suggest you, the BRCS team, assign them, since you probably have a better grasp of the whole thing than I probably ever will. Neat idea, actually... really neat.

05-06-2004, 03:40 PM
Hey Rasp - don't you owe me something? Hint hint nudge nudge. ;)

As far as sliding DCs go - just check out the Shadow Walker feat in the revised Chap 1 for some guidelines.

05-06-2004, 10:22 PM
I know; I just HAVE to get my copy of the Book of Priestcraft... Sorry for being late, but I would like tp give you something really good, not just a scrap note. If their is any deadline, I will be happy to oblige with it.

As for the DC modifiers, I think that applying a +5 bonus during the day and a -5 penalty during the night on the creature's save is fine with me.

05-08-2004, 01:46 PM
Some additions and changes to the spell given above:

The spell cannot be cast if you are directly hit by sunlight (no mirrors, daylight spells, etc. can disallow the spell from being cast). If you would normally be affected by sunlight or daylight, this spell protects you from such harm.

The modifiers to the DC are as follows:

Base DC 10 (for dusk/dawn) + 1/2 caster level + spell-casting ability
+1 for forsaken areas
+1 for winter
+2 for night
-2 for day
-1 for summer
-1 for civilised areas

I lowered the DC modifiers due to the fact they were intented for skill checks; saves tend to be of lower numbers. Suggestions on the matter are welcome.

05-08-2004, 03:54 PM
Nice sliding scale DCs (with justification) to reflect the differences in proximity/effect of the SW.

05-08-2004, 08:20 PM
Aye, looks very good rasp :)

01-13-2005, 09:40 AM
I was just thinking if you would want me to group the spell up for inclusion... When I find the time, I will write any other spells that come to mind as well (I just NEED to see Eloele have a Shadow domain!).

Green Knight
01-13-2005, 10:47 AM
There is a darkness domain in FR I believe. You could use that one.