Rhuobhe Manslayer

[fiftyone]

Rhoubhe Manslayer

Medium Awnsheglien (Augmented Humanoid [Elf])
Level 33 Fighter/Ranger/Wizard/Scion of Azrai
Hit Dice: 8d10 plus 8d8 plus 15d4 plus 2d6 plus 66+3 (215 hp)
Initiative: +5 (+5 dex)
Speed: 40 ft. (8 squares)
AC: 31 (+5 dex, +4 Mithril Breastplate [+9], +3 Large Steel Shield [+5], +2 Natural), touch 15, flat-footed 26
Base Attack/Grapple: +22/+31
Attack: +4 Bastard Sword of Life Stealing +36 melee (1d10+13 17-20/x2 plus negative level) or +3 composite longbow (+3 Str) +30 ranged brilliant energy arrow (1d8+3 plus 1d8 electricity damage)
Full Attack: +4 Bastard Sword of Life Stealing +36/+31/+26 melee (1d10+13 17-20/x2 plus negative level) or +3 composite longbow (+3 Str) +30/+25/+20 ranged energy arrow (1d8+3 plus 1d8 electricity damage) or touch spell +31 or ranged touch spell +27
Face/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: spells, blood abilities, energy arrows
Special Qualities: damage Reduction 10/magic and cold iron, elf traits, fast healing 3, immune to launched missles, light sensitive, spell resistance 21, swift tracker, true seeing, wild empathy, woodland stride
Saves: Fort +26, Ref +23, Will +24.
Abilities: Str 28, Dex 20, Con 15, Int 23, Wis 14, Cha 17.
Skills: Bluff +10, Climb +19, Concentration +22, Craft (alchemy) +20, Decipher Script +7, Diplomacy +6, Gather Information +9, Handle Animal +13, Heal +8, Hide +16, Intimidate +11, Jump +18, Knowledge (arcana) +23, Knowledge (dungoneering) +9, Knowledge (geography) +12, Knowledge (local) +15, Knowledge (nature) +13, Knowledge (planes) +21, Lead +14, Listen +8, Move Silently +16, Ride +15, Search +12, Sense Motive +7, Spellcraft +18, Spot +8, Survival +13, Swim +17, Use Rope +8, Warcraft +18
Feats: Battle Spell, Blind Fight, Brew Potion, Combat Archery, Combat Reflexes, Craft Magic Arms & Armor, Craft Wand, Dark Speech, Dodge, *Endurance, Exotic Weapon Proficiency (bastard sword), Hold the Line, Improved Critical (bastard sword), *Many Shot, Mobility, Mounted Archery, Mounted Combat, Point Black Shot, Quick Draw, *Rapid Shot, *Scribe Scroll, Shot on the Run, Spring Attack, *Track, Weapon Focus (bastard sword)
Bloodline: True (Azrai) 95
Blood Abilities: Alertness (minor), Bloodform (major), Charm Aura (major), Detect Life (great), Enhanced Senses (great), Fear (minor), Iron Will (minor), Major Resistance - Charm (great), Major Resistance - Poison (major), Poison Sense (minor), Regeneration (great), Resistance (minor), Wither Touch (major)

Organization: Solitary
Challenge Rating: 33 to 35
Treasure: See Below.
Alignment: Neutral Evil

Favored Enemy (ex): Human (+4), Goblinoid (+2)

True Seeing (su): Rhuobhe has continuous true seeing ability, as the spell (caster level 20th).

Energy Arrows (su): Rhuobhe has no need of a quiver. At will he can create energy arrows out of thin air. These arrows are considered magical for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction and can be instilled with the brilliant energy quality if Rhoubhe wills it.

Animal Companion(ex): Usually found lounging about Rhuobhe's laboratory is an aging medium viper the Elf lovingly calls, Ickird.

Possessions: +4 bastard sword of life stealing, +4 mithril breastplate, +3 large steel shield, orb of storms, rod of maximize

Commonly Prepared Wizard Spells (4/6/6/5/5/5/4/3/2), Caster Level 15, Base DC 16 + Spell Level.
0th level - detect magic, mage hand, message, read magic
1st level - charm person, chill touch, jump, magic missle (x2), reduce person
2nd level - blindness/deafness, blur, fog cloud, levitate, web, whispering wind
3rd level - blink, displacement, fly, haste, lightning bolt
4th level - animate dead, confusion, Evard's black tentacles, ice storm, polymorph
5th level - dismissal, baleful polymorph, hold monster, lesser planar binding, telekinesis
6th level - disintegrate, greater dispel magic, Otiluke's freezing sphere, planar binding
7th level - banishment, prismatic spray
8th level - polar ray

Ranger Spells Per Day (0/2/1), Caster Level 4, Base DC 13 + Spell Level.
1st level - entangle, longstrider
2nd level - spike growth or wind wall

[Don E]

Originally posted by fiftyone@Apr 28 2004, 10:29 AM
Rhoubhe Manslayer

Medium Awnsheglien (Augmented Humanoid [Elf])
Level 33 Fighter/Ranger/Wizard/Scion of Azrai

I would suggest changing the format slightly to include what levels the monster/character has in the various classes instead of the total character level. It is easy enough to look through the HD and count the various levels if they all have a different HD, but as soon as there are two classes with the same base HD things could get confusing.

In this case it would be Fighter 8/Ranger 8/Wizard 15/Scion of Azrai 2 instead of Level 33 Fighter/Ranger/Wizard/Scion of Azrai.

Cheers
E

[Osprey]

Another option is to replace some of the fighter and ranger levels with the Arcane Archer prestige class...allowing him to enchant arrows at will - whereas the energy arrows idea is, well, the sort of thing that normally only actual deities are capable of...

Also has Rhuobhe has a True Bloodline, perhaps 3 scion levels would be more accurate? Don't know about that one, just seems appropriate...

Also, if Rhuobhe is really an awnshegh, as opposed to just a scion of Azrai, where are his monster levels to represent that? Not sure how that could or should be done, but it seems like we should either not call Rhuobhe an awnshegh at all, or he needs some sort of representation for how he has changed beyond just having cool blood abilities. One possibility is that the scion levels could be considered "monster levels" by themselves, if becoming an awnshegh could convert those levels appropriately before other levels are added on...

Perhaps Scion3/Wizard15/Fighter4/Ranger6/Arcane Archer5?

Osprey

[fiftyone]

Originally posted by Osprey@Apr 28 2004, 02:05 PM
Another option is to replace some of the fighter and ranger levels with the Arcane Archer prestige class...allowing him to enchant arrows at will - whereas the energy arrows idea is, well, the sort of thing that normally only actual deities are capable of...

Also has Rhuobhe has a True Bloodline, perhaps 3 scion levels would be more accurate? Don't know about that one, just seems appropriate...

Also, if Rhuobhe is really an awnshegh, as opposed to just a scion of Azrai, where are his monster levels to represent that? Not sure how that could or should be done, but it seems like we should either not call Rhuobhe an awnshegh at all, or he needs some sort of representation for how he has changed beyond just having cool blood abilities. One possibility is that the scion levels could be considered "monster levels" by themselves, if becoming an awnshegh could convert those levels appropriately before other levels are added on...

Perhaps Scion3/Wizard15/Fighter4/Ranger6/Arcane Archer5?

Osprey
- Energy arrows, see second edition ^_^ .. A +3 Brilliant Energy Composite Longow (+3 Str) of Shock would have relatively the same effect. That's not even epic (+8 total). A solar can create arrow of slaying at will and is only a 22 HD creature.

- 3 levels of Scion; chap 2 revision details only 2.

- Rhuobhe isn't a monstrous awnshegh.

[irdeggman]

As I've pointed out several times (and I think you are starting to see why as you delve deeper into creating awnshegh) - the first thing that needs to be done is to determine a means of capturing the transformation process. The deeper you get the harder it becomes to rationalize how the build should work and then the balance between awnshegh becomes harder to maintain. It could be a prestige class, it could be a variation of the UA bloodlines, it could be something else entirely.

What ever was written in 2nd ed for awnshegh will end up being changed as the move to 3.5 occurs - this is primarily because in 2nd there was no mechanic for creating monsters or NPCs for that matter. It was whatever the author felt worked at the time. 3.5 on the other hand has specific mechanics for development and building them and they are balanced with each other in their construction - this relates to how the CR/EL are determined so everything is tied together.

Just because an awnshegh had some ability in 2nd ed doesn't mean that it will transfer into the 3.5 mechanics. The idea is to capture the feel and flavor and maintain some semblance of their relative threat level in the process.

A straight even up conversion of the 2nd ed awnshegh will not work, they need to be constructed using some sort of mechanic. Savage Species provides some guidance for how to make such a build also, but regardless some basic mechanic process needs to be written down first.

Rhuobhe is an awnsheghlien thefore he has transformed into something different that what he was. He may not be a monstrous humanoid but he is not a plain Cerilian elf anymore either. Some sort of progression towards a true fey creature is most likely the closest fit for him.

I did not include 3 levels of scion class because there are no PCs with true bloodlines and all known true bloodlines belong to awnshegh or ershegh so the aspect of true bloodline could be captured by the actual transformation process. I also didn't want to presume to capture the awnshegh/ershegh transformation process in that manner, I wanted to leave it to the one (evidently it is you now fiftyone) who was going to work on them. If desired another level of scion class could be added, but it is not available for PCs.

[geeman]

At 01:51 AM 4/29/2004 +0200, irdeggman wrote:



> As I`ve pointed out several times (and I think you are starting to see

> why as you delve deeper into creating awnshegh) - the first thing that

> needs to be done is to determine a means of capturing the transformation

> process. The deeper you get the harder it becomes to rationalize how the

> build should work and then the balance between awnshegh becomes harder to

> maintain. It could be a prestige class, it could be a variation of the UA

> bloodlines, it could be something else entirely.



I`ve found it works pretty well using the character class method. At

least, nobody has said they thought any of the abilities were inappropriate

or imbalanced for any of them I`ve sent to the BR community. (There have

been some valid points made about the CR I`ve assigned, but that`s not

really related to the class itself.)



The class is pretty simple. It has d10 HD, fast BAB, fortitude and reflex

saves, and 2 skill points/level with the player/DM choosing 10 skills from

those available to be class skills for the character. The major feature of

the class is that it gets a BP every level (the bloodline point system I

use) to spend on an existing blood ability, a new one or a transformation

effect. Its the transformation and disadvantage "special ability" sections

of that class that are the longest, but they aren`t particular more

extensive than exist for most character class write ups. Even though I`ve

been adding and articulating them for months those sections are still under

a 1,500 words.



In fact, here`s the whole character class description. Hopefully the

formatting won`t be too difficult to read.



The Awnshegh class is used to reflect an awnshegh`s transformation into

the corrupted form that parallels the character`s nature and

personality. A scion of Azrai may always choose to take a level as an

awnshegh when he levels up, but he may be required to take a level in this

class if he fails a will save. See The Blood of Azrai on page 7. [Note:

This is another section in my BP document that nobody but my group has

seen, I`m afraid. -G]

Alignment: Any.

Hit Die: d10.

Class Skills: Pick ten skills appropriate to the form your character is

transforming into. All other skills are cross class skills for you as you

level up in the awnshegh prestige class.



Skill Points per Level: 2 + Int modifier



Table 7: Awnshegh/Ershegh

Fort Ref Will

Level BAB Save Save Save Special

1 +1 +2 +2 +0 Bonus BP, transformation

1

2 +2 +3 +3 +0 Bonus BP, disadvantage

1

3 +3 +3 +3 +1 Bonus BP, transformation

2

4 +4 +4 +4 +1 Bonus BP, disadvantage

2

5 +5 +4 +4 +1 Bonus BP, transformation

3

6 +6 +5 +5 +2 Bonus BP, disadvantage

3

7 +7 +5 +5 +2 Bonus BP, transformation

4

8 +8 +6 +6 +2 Bonus BP, disadvantage

4

9 +9 +6 +6 +3 Bonus BP, transformation

5

10 +10 +7 +7 +3 Bonus BP, disadvantage

5

11 +11 +7 +7 +3 Bonus BP, transformation

6

12 +12 +8 +8 +4 Bonus BP, disadvantage

6

13 +13 +8 +8 +4 Bonus BP, transformation

7

14 +14 +9 +9 +4 Bonus BP, disadvantage

7

15 +15 +9 +9 +5 Bonus BP, transformation

8

16 +16 +10 +10 +5 Bonus BP, disadvantage

8

17 +17 +10 +10 +5 Bonus BP, transformation

9

18 +18 +11 +11 +6 Bonus BP, disadvantage

9

19 +19 +11 +11 +6 Bonus BP, transformation

10

20 +20 +12 +12 +6 Bonus BP, disadvantage

10





CLASS FEATURES

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: None. An awnshegh/ershegh whose

transformation gives him an unarmed attack, however, automatically gets the

Unarmed Combat feat.

Gear: None.

Bonus BP: You gain an additional Bloodline Point. This BP may be spent

to improve a blood ability you already have or it may be spent on any other

blood ability available to your bloodline derivation.

The BP you earn from taking levels in the Blood Form prestige class may

be spent to gain more blood abilities or increase your blood abilities

higher than your Scion level would permit. You need not abide by the

normal limitation regarding the maximum number of blood abilities when

spending these BP of Table 3: Bloodline Score on page 6. That is, a scion

with a Az(10/36) bloodline has 5 BP that he may spend on no more than 2

blood abilities. The same character that gained BP by taking levels in the

Awnshegh/Ershegh prestige class can spend those BP on a third blood ability

or they can be used to increase the power of one of his existing blood

abilities.

You may exchange a bonus BP for an additional Transformation (below.)

Transformation: As an awnshegh you begin to transform into a distinctly

non-human form. This form coincides with your personality and

demeanor. You may transform into an animal, monster or some otherworldly

form. Your transformation into an awnsheghlien is a constant, degenerate

process, but you only gain abilities based upon your blood form every other

level you progress as an awnshegh. Blood Form abilities may be claws

granting an unarmed attack, scales that provide a natural armor bonus or

any other special ability generally reserved for animals or

monsters. Below is a list of typical transformations that you may choose

from or use as a guide for creating your own transformation effects:



Ability Drain 1: When you make a successful touch attack or melee attack

your opponent must make a Fortitude save (DC 10 + your character level) or

suffer ability score damage. You can choose any ability score except

constitution.

Ability Drain 2: A second transformation can be used to make the ability

score drained constitution. (You may skip this transformation and move on

to Ability Drain 3+ if you want to continue draining any of the other five

ability scores.)

Ability Drain 3+: Later transformations increase the amount of points

your opponent loses by 1 point. You can continue taking this

transformation, but you cannot take it in two consecutive levels.

Ability Score Bonus 1: A +2 bonus to any ability score.

Ability Score Bonus 2+: Later transformations can improve your ability

scores by +2.

Claws 1: You get two unarmed attacks that do 1d4 damage. Typically,

these attacks are assumed to be claws or talons on the character`s hands,

but it can be used to represent any attack with two limbs. The type of

damage done (piercing, slashing or bludgeoning) should be determined when

the transformation is taken.

Claws 2+: Later transformations can be used to improve the die for this

attack using the following progression: 1d6, 1d8, 1d10, 1d12, 2d8, 2d10, 2d12.

Damage Reduction 1: You have DR 1/.

Damage Reduction 2+: Later transformations can be used to improve your

damage reduction to 2/, 3/, etc.

Fangs 1: You get an unarmed attack that does 1d6 damage. This attack is

generally assumed to be a bite, but can be used to represent any single

attack. Like the Claws 1 transformation, the type of damage done

(piercing, slashing or bludgeoning) is determined when the transformation

is taken.

Fangs 2+: Later transformations can be used to improve the die for this

attack using the following progression: 1d10, 2d8, 2d10, 2d12, 3d10, 3d12,

4d10.

Immunity:

Move 1: Increase your movement rate by 10 feet, or add a new type of

movement at 10 feet. That is, a typical human could increase his movement

rate to 40 feet, or could gain a burrowing movement rate of 10 feet. Other

types of movement that could be added are a swim movement rate, or a climb

movement.

Move 2+: Later transformations can improve your movement rate by 10 feet.

Natural Armor 1: Scales, thick skin, a tough hide, etc. that provide a

+2 natural armor bonus.

Natural Armor 2+: Later transformations can be used to improve your

natural armor bonus by an additional +2.

Nightvision: per ??

Saving Throw Bonus 1: A +2 bonus to any saving throw.

Saving Throw Bonus 2+: Later transformations can improve saving throws

by an additional +2.

Scent: You gain the scent special ability.

Size Increase: By dedicating both your bonus BP and transformation bonus

you can increase your size category. Increasing size grants ability score

increases and decreases, natural armor, penalties to attacks, etc. per the

guidelines in the MM.

Spell-like Ability 1: A transformation can take the form of a spell-like

ability. Choose an appropriate 0th level spell.

Spell-like Ability 2+: Later transformations can improve the spell-like

ability to 1st+ level spells.

Subtype: You may add a subtype to your character description (fey,

outsider, etc.)

Tremorsense 1: You gain tremorsense (DMG 299) with a range of 30 feet.

Tremorsense 2+: Later transformations improve your tremorsense range

improve by 30 feet.

Water Breathing: You are able to breathe underwater per the ???

Wings 1: You can fly at 40 feet with poor maneuverability.

Wings 2+: Later transformations can improve your maneuverability

category or increase your flying speed by 20 feet.



Disadvantage: Taking levels in the awnshegh character class has negative

consequences as well. Starting at 2nd level and every other level

thereafter the changes to your body caused by your awnsheghlien form cause

you to suffer a disadvantage. Disadvantages are similar to transformations

in that they should in some way relate to the form you are changing

into. For instance, a character who gained a natural armor bonus from

scaly skin from transforming into a lizard-like creature might also become

cold-blooded and, therefore, more vulnerable to heat and cold based

attacks. Some typical disadvantages are:



Ability Penalty 1: You suffer a -4 penalty to charisma, or a -2 penalty

to any other ability score.

Ability Penalty 2+: You can continue to suffer ability score penalties

as long as the penalty will not reduce an ability score to 0.

Bad Reactions: You are slow to react, suffering a 4 penalty to

initiative checks.

Bad Saves 1: You suffer a 2 penalty to any saving throw.

Bad Saves 2: You suffer additional saving throw penalties. You may not

take a saving throw penalty on the same saving throw more than twice for a

cumulative penalty of 4.

Body Shape 1: Your body changes enough from the typical humanoid form so

that you are unable to wear standard armor and must have clothing and

similar equipment custom made at 200% of their standard cost.

Body Shape 2: Your body has changed to the point that you are not able

to wear armor or clothing at all.

Body Shape 3: Your body has changed to the point that you are not able

to wear rings or other jewelry, nor can you use any standard

equipment. You have difficulty using objects designed for humans like

doorknobs, chairs, etc.

Diminished Hands 1: Your hands are reduced and/or your thumb diminished

so that you are only able to grip in one hand weapons one size category

smaller than you.

Diminished Hands 2+: You may continue to take this disadvantage to

reflect that your hands and fingers have continued to be reduced so that

you can only wield weapons two size categories smaller than you, then three

sizes, etc. Eventually (below size Fine) you are unable to hold objects at

all.

Diminished Sight 1: You are nearsighted. You suffer a 2 penalty to all

ranged attacks and spot checks.

Diminished Sight 2: Your vision has deteriorated further. You suffer a

4 penalty on all ranged attacks and spot checks.

Diminished Sight 3: You are blind. See the PHB p151-2.

Diminished Voice 1: You can only speak in a whisper (requiring a DC 15

Listen check to hear) or you must make a DC20 Will save in order to utter

an articulate word or short sentence.

Diminished Voice 2: You can no longer speak audibly.

Energy Weakness: You become vulnerable to a particular form of energy

(heat, cold or electricity) suffering double damage from such attacks.

Hearing Loss 1: You are hard of hearing. You suffer a 4 penalty to

Listen checks.

Hearing Loss 2: You are deaf.

Light Sensitivity 1: Your are sensitive to light suffering a -2 penalty

to all attacks, skill checks and saving throws made while in daylight.

Light Sensitivity 2: You suffer ability score penalties (-2 to strength

and dexterity) in daylight.

Light Sensitivity 3: You suffer physical damage (2 hit points per round)

when directly exposed to daylight.

Light Sensitivity 4: You are blind in daylight. See the DMG p151-2.

Light Sensitivity 5+: You can double the effects of Light Sensitivity 1,

2 or 3. You may take this disadvantage more than once, but not to double

the effect of the same Light Sensitivity.

Slow 1: Your movement rate is decreased by 10 feet. You may not apply

this disadvantage to a type of movement you gained as part of an awnshegh

transformation or blood ability.

Slow 2+: You may take this disadvantage as long as you have 10 feet of

movement to lose until you are immobile with that type of movement.

Swallow Whole:

Turn Vulnerability: You can be turned as an undead creature by an

appropriately aligned priest.

Water Breather: You are no longer able to breathe air, suffocating when

taken out of the water per the rules on Suffocation in the DMG.



New Transformations and Disadvantages: When developing new transformations

or disadvantages not covered by those listed above try to use the existing

ones as a guideline.



Using that class to portray the transformations and disadvantages of an

awnshegh/ershegh character seems to create balanced and logically devised

characters. The only downside that I can see is that it requires giving

existing 2e characters another six or more character levels.



If one uses a character class for awnshegh (or ershegh) transformation the

only real question then becomes How many levels in that class does the

character have? When it comes to characters like Rhoubhe, the Spider, etc.

I`ve found the best way to answer that question is to just go ahead and

start writing up the character giving him the minimum number of levels

required to portray that character`s special abilities.



Gary

[RaspK_FOG]

Interesting... It seem it should work, though only playtesting will reveal if it really does.

[Don E]

Originally posted by geeman@Apr 29 2004, 02:30 AM
The class is pretty simple. It has d10 HD, fast BAB, fortitude and reflex saves, and 2 skill points/level with the player/DM choosing 10 skills from those available to be class skills for the character. The major feature of the class is that it gets a BP every level (the bloodline point system I use) to spend on an existing blood ability, a new one or a transformation effect. Its the transformation and disadvantage "special ability" sections of that class that are the longest, but they aren`t particular more extensive than exist for most character class write ups. Even though I`ve been adding and articulating them for months those sections are still under a 1,500 words.

<snip>

Using that class to portray the transformations and disadvantages of an awnshegh/ershegh character seems to create balanced and logically devised characters. The only downside that I can see is that it requires giving existing 2e characters another six or more character levels.

Very good. I think this is the best suggestion I have seen for creating Awnsheghs. My only suggestion would be to try condense the class somewhat to prevent an unnecessary high number of levels required to generate some of the more serious transformations. One option I think could work is to have each level give the character both a transformation and a disadvantage.

This would cut down the required levels to half, and also remove the current difference in power between odd and even numbered levels. The six levels you see as required for many of the existing characters would be reduced to three, and as a lot of people on this list appears keen on keeping their campaigns at relatively low levels as in 2e, this could make the class a more interesting option for them.

Cheers,
E

[Osprey]

Very good. I think this is the best suggestion I have seen for creating Awnsheghs. My only suggestion would be to try condense the class somewhat to prevent an unnecessary high number of levels required to generate some of the more serious transformations. One option I think could work is to have each level give the character both a transformation and a disadvantage.

This would cut down the required levels to half, and also remove the current difference in power between odd and even numbered levels. The six levels you see as required for many of the existing characters would be reduced to three, and as a lot of people on this list appears keen on keeping their campaigns at relatively low levels as in 2e, this could make the class a more interesting option for them.

Cheers,
E

Agreed. Also, it would allow more class levels for awnshegh, which would encourage the human aspect of awnshegh to still be a prominent part for most.

Gary, is there any way the class could be converted from Blood Points (yeah, I know you&#39;re a huge proponent of BP, but humor me) to the revised BRCS system? I would like to see if this couldn&#39;t be adopted there.

Osprey

[geeman]

At 02:18 PM 4/29/2004 +0200, Don E wrote:



>My only suggestion would be to try condense the class somewhat to prevent

>an unnecessary high number of levels required to generate some of the more

>serious transformations. One option I think could work is to have each

>level give the character both a transformation and a disadvantage.

>

>This would cut down the required levels to half, and also remove the

>current difference in power between odd and even numbered levels. The six

>levels you see as required for many of the existing characters would be

>reduced to three, and as a lot of people on this list appears keen on

>keeping their campaigns at relatively low levels as in 2e, this could make

>the class a more interesting option for them.



Balancing the special abilities of a proposed awnshegh/ershegh class

against that of "standard" or "average" character class special abilities

is something of a shaky proposition. In this case, the BP every level

along with the alternating transformation/disadvantage effects are pretty

comparable to those of most character classes IMO. They might even be

somewhat more powerful than is standard. Though I`ve gone to some effort

to try to prevent that in the rest of the system, it`s kind of inevitable

at higher levels as special abilities tend to scale up in power and become

more difficult to adjudicate. I`m reluctant to bump up the power scale of

the special abilities all that much, though I could try a transformation

every level as you suggest just to see how it effects the overall abilities

of the characters.



Personally, I`m not terribly concerned about the additional levels to

awnshegh since most of them in a 3e sense seem somewhat underpowered. The

Spider, for instance, is woefully wimpy if translated "straight" level for

level as he was originally presented. Aside from that, as often as not the

"core" awnshegh should be pretty unassailably powerful IMO. Minor awnshegh

can be created with fewer than six levels in the awnshegh class.



A couple of things I probably should have better outlined in the previous

post, however:



1. "6th level" is just a guesstimate on my part. Not having taken a stab

at any of the existing awnsheghlien I just threw that out there. In

general, I`ve found awnshegh need around that many levels to get a decent

amount of effects, though in the case of Rhoubhe I suspect it might not be

all that many since his transformation is relatively slight (compared to

most other awnshegh) and might be portrayed in other ways (levels in a sort

of Arcane Archer class, for example.) In general, the awnshegh or ershegh

that I write up wind up having between 8-12 levels in the class, but that`s

as much to get them to some particular CR or general power scale as it is

to affect a particular transformation. In some cases as few as four levels

seems to work, particularly since:



2. The 1BP/level earned in the class can be spent to get another

transformation effect rather than on a blood ability. (It`s easy to miss

that note in the description of the Bonus BP special ability.) An awnshegh

could, therefore, get a transformation every level, in addition to the one

he earns every odd level if he dedicated his 1BP/level to a transformation

rather than to improving his existing blood abilities or gaining new

ones. So at 6th level an awnshegh could have nine transformation effects

not three. In effect, an awnshegh or ershegh can "transform" 1.5 times per

level.



In that context, I suppose a transformation every level (rather than every

other) would probably not be that gross a misrepresentation of the

character. I`ll have to write up one or two, however, just to see how well

it works at that scale rather than the one I`ve been using.



3. Part of that whole BP document includes a write up of the bloodform

ability which gives a scion a transformation effect without the

disadvantage as described in that character class write up, so in a few

cases an awnshegh could be more transformed than just his levels in the

character class indicate. In fact, after the first BP (which takes the

form of a bloodmark in the BP system) all BP spent on bloodform or

bloodtrait are transformations. A character with Bloodform (major) would

have 3-5 transformations, while one with that ability at great power would

have 6-8. (The BP system includes what would be considered a Bloodform

(minor) ability. In fact, it has minor through great versions of all the

blood abilities... not that it really matters in this case.)



4. Many awnshegh in the original materials have a total number and power

level of blood abilities that would be impossible to acquire given their

bloodline score in the system presented in the Rulebook. Hence, the

ability of the awnshegh character class to improve or give a character new

blood abilities. It`s debatable if the blood abilities in the original

character descriptions represent the actual blood ability of the character,

however, so the bloodform(minor) or bloodform(great) abilities that might

represent what would be as many as 8 transformations in #3 above might

actually be part of the character`s bloodline or it might represent power

gained from levels in such a system.



5. Since there was no awnshegh character class in the original BR system

one of the things that would appear to have been done in several cases was

to assume that the character was levelling up as a fighter. That`s not

always the case, of course, but in the cases in which it is true the

awnshegh class is very much like a fighter in several respects (HD, BAB,

fortitude save, skill points) so if a particular awnshegh (like Rhoubhe or

the Spider) has fighter levels some of them might be exchanged for awnshegh

levels if one is concerned about not allowing the character to get too high

level, but still keeping him as much like the original character as

possible. In fact, this might work a little better since the characters

didn`t originally have bonus fighter feats which might be somewhat weird

when used to portray the character in a new, 3e version.



Gary

[geeman]

At 03:43 PM 4/29/2004 +0200, Osprey wrote:



>Gary, is there any way the class could be converted from Blood Points

>(yeah, I know you`re a huge proponent of BP, but humor me) to the revised

>BRCS system? I would like to see if this couldn`t be adopted there.



Without BP? Impossible!



On the other hand... I suppose one could just get rid of the "Bonus BP"

special ability description and replace it with the Transformation ability,

and make that special ability occur every level rather than every other

level. That doesn`t address the issue of awnshegh (and ershegh,

presumably) having more blood abilities and more powerful blood abilities

than their bloodline strength would allow, but that could be handled by

making one of the transformations effects possible the ability to get a new

blood ability to increase the power of an existing one:



Blood Ability 1: You gain a new blood ability at minor power level.

Blood Ability 2+: You improve an existing minor blood ability to major, or

one of your major blood abilities to great.



That doesn`t look balanced IMO, since the aforementioned BP system assigns

3BP to each of those power levels (minor, major, great) so

1BP=transformation using the above transformation effects would be a pretty

good bargain.



Replacing the Bonus BP special ability with a Transformation every level

also slows down the amount of abilities one gains from 1.5 transformations

(or 0.5 transformations and 1 BP) per level to 1 transformation/level, but

it seems incorrect to give the class two transformations every other level

if for no other reason than it would look stupid on the table. One could

scale up the transformation effects a bit to try to address the rate at

which the powers increase (and equate them to the blood ability improvement

described above.) The first Damage Reduction transformation, for instance,

could start at 2/-- rather than 1/-- and later transformations could bump

that to 4/--, 6/--, etc. Personally I think the ones presented are pretty

well balanced against existing character class special abilities and after

having spent a lot of time balancing them with that in mind I am not going

rewrite the whole thing again at a new power scale as an experiment...

though anyone who wants to is free to give it a shot, of course.



Gary

[tcharazazel]

3 Things i noticed were missing, had a couple ideas for them.


Immunity:
Nightvision: per ??
Water Breathing: You are able to breathe underwater per the ???


Immunity shoudl probably go in stages from Resistance to immunity

Nightvision would really be like Low-Light Vision with the upgrade to Darkvision

Water Breathing would be as per the spell or just have them grow gills :)

[Osprey]

On the other hand... I suppose one could just get rid of the "Bonus BP"
special ability description and replace it with the Transformation ability,
and make that special ability occur every level rather than every other
level. That doesn`t address the issue of awnshegh (and ershegh,
presumably) having more blood abilities and more powerful blood abilities
than their bloodline strength would allow, but that could be handled by
making one of the transformations effects possible the ability to get a new
blood ability to increase the power of an existing one:


I&#39;d prefer to ditch the extra blood abilities they had in 2e, and instead fold them into the monster-type&#39;s special abilities...whether they come from the form or the blood really becomes a fuzzy distinction for awnshegh anyways, doesn&#39;t it? This could work especially well since many original awnshegh abilities were "custom built" to work with their monstrous form. For example, the Troll could possibly get Regeneration as a Transformation ability rather than a blood ability, and many types of creatures have Poison as a natural ability.

Beyond that, do awnshegh really need extra blood abilities anyways, as all of them have major, great, or true bloodlines of significant strength already?

[tcharazazel]

Heheh, time to add a few more transformation abilities then.

Such as fast healing and regeneration

maybe a version of the animal affinity blood abilities as the spider has spider as his animal affinity while azrai technically only has snake as his animal

long life as per the the blood ability or epic feat extended life span (add 1/2 to the max result of your race&#39;s max age modifier to your normal age categories, ie humans middle age = 58 instead of 38 old = 73 instead of 53 and venerable = 90 instead of 70.)

[Osprey]

5. Since there was no awnshegh character class in the original BR system
one of the things that would appear to have been done in several cases was
to assume that the character was levelling up as a fighter. That`s not
always the case, of course, but in the cases in which it is true the
awnshegh class is very much like a fighter in several respects (HD, BAB,
fortitude save, skill points)

The attributes for a monstrous humanoid are also extremely relevant, and probably more accurate for a 3.5 awnshegh: High BAB, Good Reflex and Will saves (though you might allow awnshegh to pick any 2 high saves appropriate to their creature type), low skill points (2 per level), and d8 Hit Dice.

Considering that the awnshegh also gets a monstrous advantage as well, this might be plenty of good stuff for the class.

After thinking on it, I&#39;d say go with 1 Transformation per level and 1 Disadvantage every other level for the non-BP Awnshegh/Ershegh class. After all, all of the featured awshegh seem far more advantaged than disadvantaged, their major disadvantages being a massive social stigma rather than physical disabilities...though psychological disabilities resulting from the transformation are very appropriate (like the Spider&#39;s insanity).

Ha ha, ever consider having a Humanity rating for awnshegh? Or the opposite, a Monstrosity rating? :lol: Might be fun to keep track of their humanity slipping away...

Osprey

[RaspK_FOG]

I think that this could work out: Keep Gary&#39;s system, with the change of "any two saves high".
Use Osprey&#39;s idea as follows: Awnshegh have an Derangement/Insanity/Madness/[whatever] score equal to their Awnshegh level.
The difference between an Awnshegh [whatever] and Wisdom scores would give some effects, which would be mixed blessings mostly (good thingies with bad side-effects).
When [whatever] score equals Wisdom score, Awnshegh is utterly mad.

[Raesene Andu]

Not all Awnsheghlien can be considered insane though. The Gorgon isn&#39;t insane, nor is the Raven, Magian, Siren, and so on. Even Rhuobhe isn&#39;t insane, he just doesn&#39;t like humans much.

But then you have a lot that are... Chimaera, Serpent, Spider, Lamia, Hag, etc

Then there are others that are just animals, either starting out that way, or reduced in intelligence until they can no longer be consider human in any way... Wolf, Boar, Basalisk, etc

[Raesene Andu]

A good idea, the Awnshegh class though...

Gary, have you ever considered collecting all your Awnsheghlien together in one file, along with the Awnshegh class and making it available as a download from birthright.net? Would be a valuable download for anyone visiting the site IMO, and saves us having to search through the list looking for each one.

[geeman]

At 11:20 PM 4/29/2004 +0200, Osprey wrote:



>I`d prefer to ditch the extra abilities they had in 2e, and instead fold

>them into the monster-type`s special abilities...whether they come from

>the form or the blood really becomes a fuzzy distinction for awnshegh

>anyways, doesn`t it?



It`s fuzzy where the individual blood abilities come from, but since

several awnsheghlien have more blood abilities and blood abilities at power

levels beyond their bloodline score it appears that in certain cases at

least some have to come from the transformation--unless there is some whole

other system in the concept that is undefined by the original materials.



>This could work especially well since many original awnshegh abilities

>were "custom built" to work with their monstrous form. For

>example, the Troll could possibly get Regeneration as a Transformation

>ability rather than a blood ability, and many types of creatures have

>Poison as a natural ability.



Exactly. In fact, that`s pretty much one of the base justifications for

the whole BP document. It does allow for more articulated and customized

blood abilities for scions, but that`s incidental to the fact that it

allows for more customized awnsheghlien and ersheghlien.



Gary

[geeman]

At 11:33 PM 4/29/2004 +0200, tcharazazel wrote:



>Heheh, time to add a few more transformation abilities then.

>

>Would be fast healing and regeneration, ect



Regeneration (and several others) is not listed amongst the transformations

for the character class because it exists as an actual blood ability, so if

one wanted to give a scion/awn-/ersheghlien character regeneration one

could use that route. Since BP and transformations are interchangeable in

the system there really is no difference between putting a few BP into a

blood ability and putting BP into a transformation. Probably the only

other blood ability that might be apt for transformations is Poison Touch,

but in a couple of cases the other blood abilities might be used to portray

would are effectively the "monster powers" of awnsheghlien or

ersheghlien. I`m thinking of Invulnerability, for instance.



To be honest, from my POV, transformations and BP are essentially the same

thing. They are articulated in a way that might make them look like

different concepts, but in terms of balance, effect, etc. they really are

pretty much interchangeable. In fact, BP are sort of a subset of

transformations with transformations representing the generalized system

that handles a broad range of effects, and BP only those abilities that are

related to bloodline derivations.



Gary

[geeman]

At 11:34 PM 4/29/2004 +0200, Osprey wrote:



>Good Reflex and Will saves (though you might allow awnshegh to pick any 2

>high saves appropriate to their creature type)



I don`t see awnshegh as particularly "strong willed" creatures on the

whole, and I have a little system to handle the involuntarily

transformation of scions of Azrai into awnshegh that uses will saves to

resist the temptation of Azrai`s blood, so giving awnsheghlien on the whole

the good will save progression doesn`t really work in that context. If one

had an awnshegh or ershegh theme that had strong will as an aspect one

could use the transformation that grants saving throw bonuses to reflect that.



>After thinking on it, I`d say go with 1 Transformation per level and 1

>Disadvantage every other level for the non-BP Awnshegh/Ershegh

>class. After all, all of the featured awshegh seem far more advantaged

>than disadvantaged, their major disadvantages being a massive social

>stigma rather than physical disabilities...though psychological

>disabilities resulting from the transformation are very appropriate (like

>the Spider`s insanity).



The disadvantages of the class as presented are also generally slightly

less scaled up in power than the advantages. Though several are pretty

significant, one can min/max them to a certain extent. In this case it was

done purposefully that way in order to balance the effect of the special

abilities of the class. It`s a bit of an ad hoc process, of course, but it

seems to work.



> Ha ha, ever consider having a Humanity rating for awnshegh? Or the

> opposite, a Monstrosity rating? :lol: Might be fun to keep track of

> their humanity slipping away...



Actually, in the case of a coupe of awnsheghlien (those who begin the

process as natural animals or monsters) I do kind of look at their

transformation as being them growing "more human" the a way that is

parallel to the "degeneration" of a human awnshegh/ershegh into a

theriomorphic form. It might be seen as analogous to the way that Rhoubhe

is transforming into a sort of humanized elf by becoming more lawful. When

I wrote up Redclaw I pictured (and tried to describe) the creature as being

basically a crab that seemed to be taking on kind of humanoid

qualities. Not human, mind you, or even erect, but definitely "evolved"

from its crustacean form.



Gary

[geeman]

At 04:13 AM 4/30/2004 +0200, RaspK_FOG wrote:



>I think that this could work out: Keep Gary`s system, with the

>change of "any two saves high". Use Osprey`s idea as

>follows: Awnshegh have an Derangement/Insanity/Madness/[whatever]

>score equal to their Awnshegh level. The difference between an

>Awnshegh [whatever] and Wisdom scores would give some effects, which would

>be mixed blessings mostly (good thingies with bad

>side-effects). When [whatever] score equals Wisdom score, Awnshegh

>is utterly mad.



Instead of making it an automatic thing what if insanity were a

disadvantage? It could have several stages of Insanity 1, Insanity 2, etc.

just like other disadvantages.



In general, I like that better than making it the norm for all awnshegh

since some would appear not to be insane in and of themselves. It`s just

that their transformation gives them what would be radically different

perspectives. Technically, what seems "insane" in several cases might not

really be much more bizarre than the differences between human and Cerilian

elf psychology....



Gary

[geeman]

At 05:16 AM 4/30/2004 +0200, Raesene Andu wrote:



>Gary, have you ever considered collecting all your Awnsheghlien together

>in one file, along with the Awnshegh class and making it available as a

>download from birthright.net? Would be a valuable download for anyone

>visiting the site IMO, and saves us having to search through the list

>looking for each one.



I`m working on it. I`ve mentioned the project a couple of times in various

threads. I`ve been calling it "Mythic Monsters and Legendary Beings" and

is around 70,000 words/120 pages right now in a couple of Word documents,

including about a dozen new awnsheghlien and ersheghlien, a chapter

entitled "Death: The Final Adventure" that has at least another three

(maybe four or five) new BR-specific monsters, and the whole BP System

text. There is also a chapter dedicated to a long essay on how to design,

develop and write up new awnsheghlien and ersheghlien which is basically my

long-winded musings on the process, and may not be of interest to anyone

other than myself, but it`s in there nonetheless.



At present I`m debating whether I should just hand it out as a Word

document or if I should invest the time/energy/effort into learning how to

put together PDF files. I`m leaning towards doing that since I don`t think

the skill set might be nice to learn. Plus, I think I`d like to have a bit

more control over what actually gets put out into the world in a finished

edited format--to that extent that any such project is ever "finished" that is.



However, as I`m sure all the Design Team guys can attest, this kind of

thing is extraordinarily time consuming, particularly when one has to go

out and earn a living at the same time (not to mention taking time to

actually play RPGs) so I can`t really say when I`ll get it into some sort

of finished version. I want to write up at least three more awnsheghlien

or ersheghlien, and I need to finish up the monster descriptions for the

Death:tFA chapter, plus there is the inevitable and headachy

editing/formatting stuff to do, so it`ll probably be a good couple months.



Gary

[tcharazazel]

very cool can hardly wait for it as a Word or PDF file :) Tho if its kept on BR.net then there will always be an original copy so you don&#39;t have to worry about its integrety so much.


Would be fast healing and regeneration, ect

Regeneration (and several others) is not listed amongst the transformations
for the character class because it exists as an actual blood ability, so if
one wanted to give a scion/awn-/ersheghlien character regeneration one
could use that route. Since BP and transformations are interchangeable in
the system there really is no difference between putting a few BP into a
blood ability and putting BP into a transformation. Probably the only
other blood ability that might be apt for transformations is Poison Touch,
but in a couple of cases the other blood abilities might be used to portray
would are effectively the "monster powers" of awnsheghlien or
ersheghlien. I`m thinking of Invulnerability, for instance.


Yeah, the regeneration ect blood abilities would cover them being used as transformation, I was just offering a possible way to get around converting the BP system you use to the BCRS system.

What about going with the class offering blood powers starting with minor, then major and finally great every so many levels? Heheh, just a possibility, and would definately need to be tested to figure out what levels would be appropriate to get them and if the 20 or 10 levels of the class is appropriate then.

I like the idea of humanity, however, for Gary&#39;s current system it would be much easier to just have Insanity be a disadvantage.


>Good Reflex and Will saves (though you might allow awnshegh to pick any 2
>high saves appropriate to their creature type)

I don`t see awnshegh as particularly "strong willed" creatures on the
whole, and I have a little system to handle the involuntarily
transformation of scions of Azrai into awnshegh that uses will saves to
resist the temptation of Azrai`s blood, so giving awnsheghlien on the whole
the good will save progression doesn`t really work in that context. If one
had an awnshegh or ershegh theme that had strong will as an aspect one
could use the transformation that grants saving throw bonuses to reflect that.


One thing with regard to the saving throws, It makes sense for the awnshegh to not have strong Will saves, however, for the ershegh it would seem fine. Though, just leaving it to the DM&#39;s discretion then would make sense.

[geeman]

At 07:38 AM 4/30/2004 +0200, tcharazazel wrote:



>I like the idea of humanity, however, for Gary`s current system it would

>be much easier to just have Insanity be a disadvantage.



So I guess the $32,000 question is "What are the game mechanical effects of

Insanity?" and the $64,000 questions is "How can that be broken down into

one or more transformations like those in that character class description?"



Gary

[Raesene Andu]

Originally posted by geeman@Apr 30 2004, 02:30 PM
At present I`m debating whether I should just hand it out as a Word document or if I should invest the time/energy/effort into learning how to put together PDF files.
It is very easy to convert from word to pdf, you just need a conversion program. I have one I use all the time, just a couple of clicks and you have a pdf file that looks identical to the original word document...

Look forward to seeing your final work anyway. I&#39;ve been keeping copies of your awnshegh for a special surprise to spring on my players. I think they&#39;re getting a little cocky... and they haven&#39;t really encountered much in the way of awnshegh so far, just the one in Aduria.

[tcharazazel]

So I guess the &#036;32,000 question is "What are the game mechanical effects of
Insanity?" and the &#036;64,000 questions is "How can that be broken down into
one or more transformations like those in that character class description?"


After thinking about that some, it would probably end up similar to the disadvantage of Ability loss. So, -2 wis for each level or...

Have the first level of insanity be something like character has picked up small quirks, like talking to himself (heh, even arguing and loosing on occasion), or minor deminsia, ie he sometimes just jumps into some flashbacks of past battles ect. Basically it would be left open for DM discresion. Then Insanity 2 would have the -2 wisdom and the descriptor that those small quirks have begun to take over his everyday life, and Insanity 3 would be -4 wisdom and reality is just what he desides to make it be... heheh, ie loco. Though he could still be intelligent, like Hannible Lector hmm, actually Hanible seems like the only example that would disprove them getting any ability score decrease in Int or Wis... however, for most people suffering insanity they usually loose their will power over their percieved reality vs gthe eneral consenus of reality.

Just some ideas to get the Insanity more flushed out... heheh, dont want to get the books about pysche probs and post em here way too much crap.

[Osprey]

I don`t see awnshegh as particularly "strong willed" creatures on the
whole, and I have a little system to handle the involuntarily
transformation of scions of Azrai into awnshegh that uses will saves to
resist the temptation of Azrai`s blood, so giving awnsheghlien on the whole
the good will save progression doesn`t really work in that context. If one
had an awnshegh or ershegh theme that had strong will as an aspect one
could use the transformation that grants saving throw bonuses to reflect that.


Good point. Strong Fortitude seems like the obvious one for most awnshegh anyways, and Reflex, well...that really depends on the form taken doesn&#39;t it? Here is one area where I kinda like the BRCS version for awshegh, where hit die/class progression was based on what sort of creature template you are becoming...however, Monstrous Humanoid just seemed like the appropriate template for most awnshegh, as very few seem to be completely transformed into monsters, even the originals like Rhuobhe or the Gorgon.


Instead of making it an automatic thing what if insanity were a
disadvantage? It could have several stages of Insanity 1, Insanity 2, etc.
just like other disadvantages.

In general, I like that better than making it the norm for all awnshegh
since some would appear not to be insane in and of themselves. It`s just
that their transformation gives them what would be radically different
perspectives. Technically, what seems "insane" in several cases might not
really be much more bizarre than the differences between human and Cerilian
elf psychology....

Agreed. I think levels of Insanity are perfect examples of the disadvantages that many take on as a result of the mutative process of becoming a monster. Even ershegh might realistically have to struggle with the loss of humanity (or pure animalism, whichever is appropriate), though whether this becomes insanity or just more like their new form is debatable (like the Treant becoming "treeish" in mentality, for example).


So I guess the &#036;32,000 question is "What are the game mechanical effects of
Insanity?" and the &#036;64,000 questions is "How can that be broken down into
one or more transformations like those in that character class description?"

Gary


Well, no quick answer for that one, but then again, it wasn&#39;t a quick thing to make the awnshegh class either, was it? ;)

As insanity has thousands of varieties and flavors, it is yet another messy issue that requires a great deal of DM discretion, and customization for each awnshegh. One idea is to create different paths of insanity based on general categories: Obsessive-Compulsive, Paranoia, MPD (Multiple Personality Disorder), Mania, Delusional, Psychotic, Bipolar...to name a few with modern psych terms. Then you could scale each with several degrees of intensity, much like blood abilities (3-4 levels each?), and allow an awnshegh to either choose the next level of an existing insanity, or choose level 1 of yet another derangement.

D&D unfortunately is of little help: they lumped all insanity together into one generic category, at least for the Insanity spell effect, and said it acts as a permanent Confusion spell. Yippee. <_<

[irdeggman]

There is a whole section on Sanity in UA. Pages 194-210 and it is OGC too.

[geeman]

At 05:32 PM 4/30/2004 +0200, Osprey wrote:



>Strong Fortitude seems like the obvious one for most awnshegh anyways, and

>Reflex, well...that really depends on the form taken doesn`t it?



That`s true, the fast reflex save is less easily justified than the fast

fortitude save. In general, I don`t have a particularly good thematic

justification for this. I generally equate the awnshegh/ershegh with a

sort of generalized "monster class" that has both fast fortitude and reflex

saves. It does have a bit to do with the actual use of

awnsheghlien/ersheghlien characters. When it gets right down to it, reflex

saves can prevent such iconic characters as awnsheghlien and ersheghlien

from falling into a pit or being hit by some of the less heroic

attacks. Generally, of course, a fast reflex save is assumed to have to do

with the speed or agility of such characters, but game mechanically all it

means is the ability to avoid certain types of situations. The Gorgon

isn`t a speedy guy, but he`s an ultimate expression of physical ability,

and shouldn`t just stumble into a tiger trap.



>
So I guess the &#036;32,000 question is "What are the game

>mechanical effects of Insanity?" and the &#036;64,000 questions is

>"How can that be broken down into one or more transformations like

>those in that character class description?"

>

>

> Well, no quick answer for that one, but then again, it wasn`t a quick

> thing to make the awnshegh class either, was it? ;)



That`s for sure.



>As insanity has thousands of varieties and flavors, it is yet another

>messy issue that requires a great deal of DM discretion, and customization

>for each awnshegh. One idea is to create different paths of insanity

>based on general categories: Obsessive-Compulsive, Paranoia, MPD (Multiple

>Personality Disorder), Mania, Delusional, Psychotic, Bipolar...to name a

>few with modern psych terms. Then you could scale each with several

>degrees of intensity, much like blood abilities (3-4 levels each?), and

>allow an awnshegh to either choose the next level of an existing insanity,

>or choose level 1 of yet another derangement.

>

> D&D unfortunately is of little help: they lumped all insanity

> together into one generic category, at least for the Insanity spell

> effect, and said it acts as a permanent Confusion spell. Yippee. <_<



After giving this a little thought and looking through the Insanity chapter

of UA that Irdeggman pointed out, here`s the kind of thing I think might be

the best way to handle insanity using the proposed awnshegh character

class. First, it should be written up as disadvantages. Second, the types

of insanity should each be described separately, otherwise it turns into

its own little subset of the disadvantage process which is already its own

little subset of the character class special ability feature--and that just

gives me a headache.... In any case, the particular forms of insanity

could be written up individually. As long as one can come up with an

appropriate game mechanical effect and scope, it`s a valid disadvantage

"tree". For instance:



Phobia 1: When confronted by a particular type of creature or situation you

must make a DC 15 will save or behave as if shaken. The type of creature

or situation must be fairly common; cats, heights, water, enclosed spaces, etc.



Phobia 2: When confronted by the object of your phobia you become shaken,

and must make a DC 15 will save to avoid being frightened.



Phobia 3: When confronted by the object of your phobia you become shaken,

and must make a DC 15 will save to avoid being panicked.



Phobia 4: When confronted by the object of your phobia you become shaken,

and must make a DC 15 will save to avoid falling into a catatonic state of

emotional collapse in which you are unable to respond in any rational,

intelligent fashion so long as you are confronted by the object of your phobia.



Phobia 5+: The DC of your will save to avoid the results of your phobia is

increased by 5 points to DC 20. Further use of this disadvantage increases

the DC of the will save by another 5 points.



Other forms of insanity could be written up in a similar, generalized

way. "Obsession" as a disadvantage, for instance, might require a will

save or it will attract the attention of the character to the detriment of

all other activities. The first level of "Amnesia" might result in a -2 to

all knowledge checks followed by subsequently more dire affects to such skills.



I`ll fiddle around with these in the next couple of days to see what kinds

of things might come up. Are there any other forms of insanity that might

be useful enough to describe in the class write up?



Gary

[RaspK_FOG]

Originally posted by geeman@Apr 30 2004, 08:00 AM
Instead of making it an automatic thing what if insanity were a disadvantage? It could have several stages of Insanity 1, Insanity 2, etc. just like other disadvantages.

In general, I like that better than making it the norm for all awnshegh since some would appear not to be insane in and of themselves. It`s just that their transformation gives them what would be radically different perspectives. Technically, what seems "insane" in several cases might not really be much more bizarre than the differences between human and Cerilian elf psychology....
I had this whole idea of making it a disadvantage after I made that post, but I have limited access online per day equal to 2 hours (free online access from my university; can&#39;t afford to pay for the Internet as well&#33;), so I couldn&#39;t post it... Sorry for all the frustration&#33;

What I have in mind could be carried out in a similar manner to what goes with The Wheel of Time, or any other listing one comes up with; I believe, however, that having the statistic being compared to one&#39;s Wisdom score is best, since insanity or whatnot mental incapacitation condition was always a factor of either Intelligence (unnaturally low reasoning, I.Q., and wits) or Wisdom (common sense, perception capacity, mental stability). This allows for characters with good Wisdom scores to see things through the perspective this new mental condition presents them with. However, the whole Will save thingy every now and then off-sets my idea and still works along your system perfectly (unlike my initial suggestion :P), so why not?

I also thought of additional Madness sub-branches: Delusion (hallucinations), Hysteria (frenzied actions, little reasoning; flies in berserk or jumps at people&#39;s throats), Paranoia (overly suspicious and jumpy), Regression (animalistic or otherwise crude acts that are not appropriate to intelligent creatures), and Withdrawal (becomes distant, even catatonic; penalties on skill checks to notice things, on initiative checks, such stuff).

What do you think?

[Osprey]

What do you think?

I think you should do your own Birthright conversion, and call it the Wheel of Birthright... ;)

:lol:

[geeman]

I like insanity. It`s interesting, amusing, fun for the whole family,

keeps a massive amount of mood altering medications circulating through the

population to the point that now half the Western world seems to have

confused them with vitamins, and it`s a good time for just about

everyone--even the lab rats whose brain dissections keep so many lab

workers up late at night at least meet the scalpel after a heady dose of

thought provoking LSD.



However, I don`t know if it`s particularly a Birthright theme. At least, I

don`t think an awnsheghlien-specific sanity score system a la WoT or UA`s

CoC system is necessary to reflect the effects of transformation, so I

don`t think I`d want to incorporate it into the system of awnsheghlien

transformation automatically. That`s not to say sanity should be an issue

at all. The long-lived awnshegh (or scions) might have issues with their

mental well-being after a few centuries, or other aspects of having a

bloodline might be maddening. If I had the collective memories of several

dozen generations of my relatives swirling about in my head like someone

with Blood History does I might find that unsettling. After all, I can

barely stand those people on the holidays.... There might be a few that

are specifically driven mad by either their transformation, because their

pre-transformation biology/psychology was kind of leaning that way anyway,

or some combination thereof. (I get that vibe off the Spider, for instance.)



On the whole, however, I think a system that assigns specific types of game

mechanical effects for insanity that equates them to any of the more

physical issues described by the aforementioned disadvantage system should

do the trick for those characters who begin to lose their marbles as part

of their thematic change into some (insane) animal totemic form.



I do like WoT`s system and the CoC stuff, but in BR the transformation, the

corruption of Azrai`s bloodline (or the elevation of some other derivation

for ersheghlien) is the process itself. Where madness is part of the

system for WoT or CoC the system of becoming an awnsheghlien or ersheghlien

occupies a similar role in BR, so insanity on top of the transformation

strikes me as redundant.



Gary

[teloft]

I was just thinking

How will Rhoubhe the Manslayer act in the fyrst 3 rounds of an encounter?

What are his favorit polymorphs?

What he prefears for dinner?

...

and the other topic I have is about Awnsheglien
the 3rd scion levels, and the levels beond the 3rd could be the "monster" levels. But in order to unlock thows leevels you must fyrst gain a prerequised.

no, never mind, silli idee.

&#33;&#33; happy labours day &#33;&#33;

[RaspK_FOG]

I find myself being misunderstood:

However, the whole Will save thingy every now and then off-sets my idea and still works along your system perfectly (unlike my initial suggestion ), so why not?
What I meant with that last note was that, however fun I thought those ideas would be, the whole disadvantage system has also (finally :lol:) crossed my mind and think it would really work, much like Garry&#39;s interpretation of Phobia (I wouldn&#39;t be able to write something like that, honestly&#33; Great work&#33;), so that means that, all in all, I agree with the idea you proposed (incorprorating madness as a disadvantage) best...


I also thought of additional Madness sub-branches: Delusion (hallucinations), Hysteria (frenzied actions, little reasoning; flies in berserk or jumps at people&#39;s throats), Paranoia (overly suspicious and jumpy), Regression (animalistic or otherwise crude acts that are not appropriate to intelligent creatures), and Withdrawal (becomes distant, even catatonic; penalties on skill checks to notice things, on initiative checks, such stuff).
My WHOLE "What do you think?" comment at the end of the document was mostly attributed to this last part&#33; Do me some justice and comment on this, pretty please?

[RaspK_FOG]

Look, I don&#39;t want to sound nasty, but I presented an idea or two and got a few (if any, really) comments, with little real connection to whole point...

You said, Gary, that you believe things as shown by your earlier post on a mechanics basis are better than what I initially suggested; fine with me, I agreed with you in my last two posts. I see no reason for confusion to butt in&#33;

Secondly, why did you all not notice I provided additional, flavour- and machanically-based ideas for other "branches/types" of madness, like Regression, Withdrawal and whatnot? WHY?

To see what I mean, read previous post. Particularly the quotes: they are mine.

[tcharazazel]

I think your ideas for varying types of insanity are very cool, however, they would also require a bit of work to figure out what differentiates each one in game terms. Its easier, though definately not as accurate, to create just the insanity transformation with its set detrements to the character. The various subtypes of insanity could be examples of how the insanity can manifest itself.

Reason behind this is that some types of insanity may actually add benefits to the character along with detrements. Such as Paranoia which would likely cause the character to double or triple his guards, ensure their loyalty by periodically testing them and killing those found "unloyal," while also causing him to become afraid of people who wield some power that could be considered threatening, though he would likely prepare against and try to take out at these "enemies," even if they don&#39;t exsist or are allies. The result would be a character who is very difficult to surprise, constantly has several guards with him, activly thinks up scenarios to catch his "enemies" by surprise and in weak positions and any allies he may have had would not likely live for a long time unless he is very afraid of them and cant figure a way to take them out. So in personal combat with him, it will be almost impossible to fight him alone, and he is likely to sneak attack from a distance, while his guards delay and distract his oppenents.

A further degree of Paranoia maybe Paranoid Schizophrenia where the character sees imaginary people and generally has a special purpose that has to do with that false reality, heheh, an example is imagining they are a god would be appropriate.

As you can see, trying to figure out the benefits and detrements of each insanity can be rather difficult to determine.


There is one question though... can such insanity be cured by a Heal spell? If so, then its not really an appropriate to have it as a transformation, even though its very unlikely an awnshegh will get a cleric to cast Heal upon it, there are still clerics of Belinik, the Cold Rider, and Kriesha who may cast Heal upon the afflicted awnshegh.

[geeman]

At 02:54 AM 5/12/2004 +0200, RaspK_FOG wrote:



>Look, I don`t want to sound nasty, but I presented an idea or two and got

>a few (if any, really) comments, with little real connection to whole point...

>

>You said, Gary, that you believe things as shown by your

>earlier post on a mechanics basis are better than what I initially

>suggested; fine with me, I agreed with you in my last two posts. I see no

>reason for confusion to butt in&#33;



I`m not sure what you mean here, I`m afraid, but I`m going to try to

address #2 below in hopes of settling the matter. If I don`t cover things

please try to clarify so I can respond more appropriately.



>Secondly, why did you all not notice I provided additional, flavour- and

>machanically-based ideas for other "branches/types" of madness,

>like Regression, Withdrawal and whatnot? WHY?



I did comment (in another thread) that think paranoia might be some

combination of obsession and phobia. Game mechanically speaking, that

is. As for the rest of those maladies I don`t have anything to say mostly

because I`m not seeing how they might be implemented. Phobia and Obsession

were relatively easy since they can be associated with them. Phobia = fear

affects, Obession = fascination. For the others I`m not seeing a very

direct correlation towards an existing D&D condition or magical effect.



The nice thing about portraying either of those mental conditions is that

there are handy D&D mechanics that are written up with which they can be

equated. In the case of Phobia there is even the nice progression of fear

effects going from Shaken to Frightened to Panicked culminating in the

ultimate Helpless condition which makes for a happy set of sequential

disadvantages. Obsession works in a similar fashion--though not quite as

articulated.



So I guess the questions asked should be; what is the game mechanical

effect/condition with which regression, withdrawal, etc. might be

associated? Given that one could create a series of disadvantages using

the ones already written up as a guideline.



Assuming that`s the kind of thing you`re looking for....



In the abstract, my point in previous posts has been that I think insanity

as a concept could fit into something like the disadvantages of the

awnshegh class. It can be its own set of rules per the stuff in

CoC/UA. When it comes to the WoT`s system of madness that accompanies the

male aspect of magic, I think we have a contrasting view of how such a

thing might be handled in campaign material, however, and one that might be

more comparable to the situation describing BR`s awnsheghlien. That is,

its a sort of subsystem of the existing game mechanic. That`s what I think

it should be in BR: a subsystem of a game mechanic. In this case the

subsystem is the disadvantage special ability of the more general game

mechanic of an awnshegh character class. That is, technically, I suppose a

subsystem of the overall bloodline system.



I think handling it like that gives the concept both a set of guidelines

and assigns it to an appropriate thematic level in the setting. Where

madness and insanity are a more significant thematic emphasis of CoC and

WoT (more CoC, of course) BR has a proportionately less significant

emphasis on the issue. To define it as clearly as possible, that

proportional significance might be describe like this:



CoC: Game mechanics directly address the issue of insanity.

WoT: Insanity is a subset of the game mechanics regarding magic.

BR: Insanity is a portion of the subset of effects for the game

mechanics regarding awnsheghlien.



Hope that addresses your concerns more directly (and isn`t a further

confusion of the matter.)



Gary

[geeman]

At 07:51 AM 5/12/2004 +0200, tcharazazel wrote:



>There is one question though... can such insanity be cured by a Heal

>spell? If so, then its not really an appropriate to have it as a

>transformation, even though its very unlikely an awnshegh will get a

>cleric to cast Heal upon it, there are still clerics of Belinik, the Cold

>Rider, and Kriesha who may cast Heal upon the afflicted awnshegh.



That`s an interesting little snag. I think the way to do this would be to

allow for a Heal spell to "cure" an insane awnshegh but only

temporarily--despite the fact that such healing is supposed to be

permanent. The madness in question is, after all, brought on by a divine

power, which is going to be more influential and lasting than a temporary

spell effect or even a condition equating to what we would consider a

psychological insanity. Eventually, the character`s divinely inspired

madness will reassert itself. I`d draw parallel between Healing a

character driven insane by his/er awnshegh transformation and a "natural"

shapeshifter being hit by a Polymorph spell.



The question then becomes, how long would the magical sanity of a Heal

spell affect an awnshegh with insanity disadvantages?



Gary

[RaspK_FOG]

To answer both issues: First of all, sorry for jumping on your throat with my previous post; I was just wondering how you would like my ideas that when I got none I somehow felt offended... Again, please, excuse me for being edgy.
My idea regarding insanity would be to use your system; I initially had other things in mind, but it is more than some time that I saw the advantages of your method. I think there could be a set of rules regarding the various kinds of insanity (Withdrawal would apply a penalty on Initiative, Concentration, Listen, Search, Spot, and other patience-, perception-, or interest-related skills, Hysteria would cause the character to fly into a rage as a the barbarian ability [insanity has been known to trigger extremely high adrenaline production], unless he makes a Will save, or things like that).
An idea would be to say that the character always gets a separate Will save; if he succeeds, he is not cured of his madness. On the other hand, if he fails, he would get cured of it for a variable period of time according to the number by which he failed (for example, 1 day per caster level for -1 to -5, 1 week per caster level for -6 to -10, 1 month per caster level for -11 to -15, or 1 season per caster level for -16 and below).

[Osprey]

The question then becomes, how long would the magical sanity of a Heal
spell affect an awnshegh with insanity disadvantages?

Gary


A week per caster level isn&#39;t unreasonable, nor too long I think. That would be a minimum of 11 weeks or longer, so about 1 season typically. If that&#39;s too long, then drop it o 1 day per caster level, which is conversely rather short (a week or two of sanity...). Depends how strong the madness is really.

So maybe 1 week per level base cure time for a Level 1 madness, 1 day/level for a L2 madness, and 1 hour per level for L3 madness...you&#39;re not gonna give the Spider much respite with a Heal spell, but a newly made awnshegh just touching upon insanity might be given a long reprieve.

Osprey

[irdeggman]

So something along the lines of how a Dispel Magic or anti-magic field works on a magic item - it supresses its properties for 1d4 rounds. So maybe a suppression for 1d4 hours or days would be a good similar effect.

[geeman]

At 11:26 PM 5/12/2004 +0200, RaspK_FOG wrote:



>I think there could be a set of rules regarding the various kinds of

>insanity (Withdrawal would apply a penalty on Initiative, Concentration,

>Listen, Search, Spot, and other patience-, perception-, or

>interest-related skills,



That`s interesting. The disadvantages should be about equal to a ?? from

UA or the opposite of a feat (the UA ?? are, actually, more powerful than

feats on the whole, but I think they dropped the ball a bit on that one)

which means they should be -2 to two skills rarely three. More skills than

that are possible with some sort of additional requirement for the penalty

to kick in. Optionally, one could have a disadvantage that affects four or

more skills but has only a -1 penalty. Since this rules set has a sequence

of progressive disadvantages that might actually work better since it would

allow for Withdrawal 1 to be -1 to four or five skills Withdrawal 2 to be

-2 to those same skills, etc.



>Hysteria would cause the character to fly into a rage as a the barbarian

>ability [insanity has been known to trigger extremely high adrenaline

>production], unless he makes a Will save, or things like that).



In the BP system`s version of Divine Wrath gives the scion access to the

barbarian rage ability, and expands upon it at higher levels.) One of the

reductions of that system, however, is that one can take a -1 BP cost to

get that blood ability as a "blind rage" in which one attacks until the

effects of rage wear off or until the target is destroyed. Since that

blood ability is similar enough to the proposed effect I`d rather use

something else for hysteria lest it step on that existing blood ability. I

like the skill check penalty, for instance, so maybe something along those

lines would be appropriate.



> An idea would be to say that the character always gets a separate

>Will save; if he succeeds, he is not cured of his madness. On the other

>hand, if he fails, he would get cured of it for a variable period of time

>according to the number by which he failed (for example, 1 day per caster

>level for -1 to -5, 1 week per caster level for -6 to -10, 1 month per

>caster level for -11 to -15, or 1 season per caster level for -16 and

>below).



One thing to factor into the Heal idea is that it should probably be less

effective against awnshegh/ershegh who are more insane than others. For

instance, an awnshegh with Paranoia 1, 2, 3 and 4 should stay sane less

time than one who only had Paraonoia 1 if both were Healed at the same time.



Heal is a powerful spell, but I was thinking its effects should be measured

in hours rather than days, for a few reasons. First, if it lasts more than

a day then the character could theoretically become effectively sane

permanently by keeping company with an appropriately powered priest. It

would, of course, mean that cleric would have to sacrifice that spell slot

on a weekly (or so) basis, but in a few cases that might not be very far

out of reach for several characters even in the "low-magic" world of the BR

setting. Second, game mechanically the difference between a spell being in

effect for days and being permanent is pretty slight, so from a purely

gaming standpoint I don`t think a 1+ day effect would be good. Lastly, it

would be more dramatic if the spell effect wore off while the person who

cast it could potentially witness the change back to insanity. That would

just be fun to play out.... (Think of what a wonderful resource that would

be for a psychology department to have.)



Gary

[The Jew]

For about 30 seconds, until they were all slaughtered like the sheep they are. :P

[ConjurerDragon]

Gary schrieb:



> At 07:51 AM 5/12/2004 +0200, tcharazazel wrote:

>

>> There is one question though... can such insanity be cured by a Heal

>> spell? If so, then its not really an appropriate to have it as a

>> transformation, even though its very unlikely an awnshegh will get a

>> cleric to cast Heal upon it, there are still clerics of Belinik, the

>> Cold

>> Rider, and Kriesha who may cast Heal upon the afflicted awnshegh.

>

> That`s an interesting little snag. I think the way to do this would

> be to

> allow for a Heal spell to "cure" an insane awnshegh but only

> temporarily--despite the fact that such healing is supposed to be

> permanent. The madness in question is, after all, brought on by a divine

> power, which is going to be more influential and lasting than a temporary

> spell effect or even a condition equating to what we would consider a

> psychological insanity. Eventually, the character`s divinely inspired

> madness will reassert itself. I`d draw parallel between Healing a

> character driven insane by his/er awnshegh transformation and a "natural"

> shapeshifter being hit by a Polymorph spell.

>

> The question then becomes, how long would the magical sanity of a Heal

> spell affect an awnshegh with insanity disadvantages?

> Gary



Or if the Awnsheglien in question would even allow the casting.

Rhuobhe Manslayer allowing or trusting a cleric of those human (brr)

gods, who were once themselves human (ihh) casting a spell on him? Nooo...

And who says that even an insanity with a negative effect is not

welcomed by a mad awnsheglien? It´s the sign of favour from my god/Only

the divine touched can share my experience, or simply that the

Awnsheglien is totally unaware of it´s madness or the need for healing.

bye

Michael

[RaspK_FOG]

My mistake when it comes to the time Heal provides... I also recall that Greater Restoration and Mass Heal would affect the creature as well.

In any case, I suppose the earlier mentioned idea could be used: For Insanity 1, the cure lasts for 1d4 days.
For Insanity 2, the cure lasts for 1d4×6 hours.
For Insanity 3, the cure lasts for 1d4 hours.
For Insanity 4, the cure lasts for 1d4 minutes.

As for the effect fading in once again, I suppose you could say that the effect should reappear with reduced effects after a while. This should be resolved as such: Insanity 1 is cured of the madness the whole time.
[Insanity 2] reverts to [Insanity 1] 1/2 the rolled time after being cured.
[Insanity 3] reverts to [Insanity 1] 1/3 the rolled time after being cured, and to [Insanity 2] 2/3 the rolled time after being cured.
[Insanity 4] reverts to [Insanity 1] 1/4 the rolled time after being cured, to [Insanity 2] 2/4 the rolled time after being cured, and to [Insanity 3] 3/4 after the time being cured; portions are rounded up for the 1st and 2nd quarter if rolled time is not divisible by 4 (i.e., 1 or 3 minutes).
For example, if the targeted awnshegh has Insanity (phobia) 4 and your roll for curing the madness (due to casting a Heal or more powerful spell) is 3 minutes, the awnshegh would be cured of the madness for 8 rounds, then he would suffer an additional 8 rounds afflicted by Insanity (phobia) 1, the next 7 rounds he would suffer from Insanity (phobia) 2, and the last 7 rounds he would be affected by Insanity (phobia) 3; he would return to "normal" thereafter.

[tcharazazel]

That looks like a good method rasp. not too complex just divide the time by the degree of insanity. Heheh, imagine it working with multiple insanities, that may get complex, however, not terribly so.

[ryancaveney]

On Thu, 13 May 2004, Michael Romes wrote:



> Or if the Awnsheglien in question would even allow the casting.

> Rhuobhe Manslayer allowing or trusting a cleric of those human (brr)

> gods, who were once themselves human (ihh) casting a spell on him? Nooo...



I haven`t been following this thread closely, but I`m confused by this --

what does insanity have to do with the Manslayer? I have never considered

him at all insane -- extremely angry, yes, but perfectly sane. Why do you

(and others?) think him mad, as opposed to just mad? ;)





Ryan Caveney

[geeman]

I suppose another question regarding the use of Heal to cure insanity

brought about due to a disadvantage is, "Should the situation be addressed

in the character class description?"



Personally, I`m inclined to say that DMs may want to rule on this on an

individual basis, rather than codify the situation in the class description.

I could see arguments for the effects of Heal to last anywhere from a few

hours to a few days, but even with a system thought out I suspect it`s not

worthwhile putting the text into the class description for the sake of one

spell effect.



Gary

[tcharazazel]

Agreed Gary, its really something that should be left up to the DMs, however, offering a general time frame as an example can make it easier for DMs.


I haven`t been following this thread closely, but I`m confused by this --
what does insanity have to do with the Manslayer? I have never considered
him at all insane -- extremely angry, yes, but perfectly sane. Why do you
(and others?) think him mad, as opposed to just mad? ;)

Heheh, well actually the topic of insanity is a side track from the original post about the Manslayer. We&#39;re not saying that the Manslayer is insane, just that when the version of awnshegh class was made early in the thread the topic of insanity as a possible disadvantage/transformation would be fitting for some of the awnshegh to get.

[geeman]

At 02:33 AM 5/14/2004 +0200, tcharazazel wrote:



>We`re not saying that the Manslayer is insane, just that when the version

>of awnshegh class was made early in the thread the topic of insanity as a

>possible disadvantage/transformation would be fitting for some of the

>awnshegh to get.



He might actually be a little insane. Obsession 1, Pathological 1... Even

from a purely, non-game mechanical standpoint he`s probably more than a bit

deranged by either human or elven standards.



Gary

[tcharazazel]

heh, good point Gary, however, it wasnt the main cause for the issue to come up is all i was saying.

[irdeggman]

Another possibility is that in order to make the heal spell work the caster has to overcome a SR of 10 + bloodscore modifier (or could just use the DC of the specific saving throw that the awnshegh would have when using spell-like blood abilities). This would reflect the greater resistance that a higher and stronger bloodline would have.

IMO the insanity propensity is actually casued by the long life blood ability. That is to say that creatures not normally accustomed to living a real long time have problems adjusting. Which is why Rhoube, who doesn&#39;t have the long-life blood ability (basically becasue the authors felt he didn&#39;t need it being an elf ad all) wouldn&#39;t suffer the insanity potential since he has lived forever .

Now why the Gorgon wouldn&#39;t have it would have to be story driven, IMO it is his focused hatred and drive for the Iron Throne that keeps him from falling towards the obvious insanities.

[tcharazazel]

That&#39;s a cool idea, heh, would pretty much make it impossible for most clerics to overcome that SR easily on a regular basis for those ancient awnshegh, with the large bloodlines. While the younger awnshegh stand a better chance at getting healed temporarily. Heheh, wonder if it shouldnt tie into how long the effect lasts though... So, the higher the bloodscore the shorter the duration of the heal spell... hmm. Wonder how that could translate into game mechanics...

[Benjamin]

Originally posted by irdeggman@May 14 2004, 04:37 AM
Now why the Gorgon wouldn&#39;t have it would have to be story driven, IMO it is his focused hatred and drive for the Iron Throne that keeps him from falling towards the obvious insanities.
Uhm... not to be a pain, but isn&#39;t that in itself an insanity? I mean, to be driven for 1500 years towards the destruction and/or conquest of an empire seems pretty nuts to me.

[tcharazazel]

Heheh, yeah sure sounds like obsession to me

[Osprey]

QUOTE (irdeggman @ May 14 2004, 04:37 AM)
Now why the Gorgon wouldn&#39;t have it would have to be story driven, IMO it is his focused hatred and drive for the Iron Throne that keeps him from falling towards the obvious insanities.


Uhm... not to be a pain, but isn&#39;t that in itself an insanity? I mean, to be driven for 1500 years towards the destruction and/or conquest of an empire seems pretty nuts to me.

Not to mention the other little "quirks" that develop, especially from the frustration of failing to achieve that goal for 1500 years or so. Who else could stand failure for so long and yet keep trying, anbd trying, and trying...Obsession 4 or 5 for the Gorgon, right? Blend in a little Paranoid Delusion, Megalomania, and a Compulsion for Bloodtheft...and hey, we&#39;ve accounted for something to the order of a good 10-20 levels of awnshegh disadvantages&#33; Whaddya know.

I doubt Rhuohe would have more than 2-5 levels of Awnshegh, and would be mostly class-based. I would also go with Obsession 4-5 (if they can go to 5, he would qualify), obsessive about the genocide of humanity, of course. If Rhuobhe could ever get a real full-size realm under his hand, Anuire would start seeing what medieval concentration camps look like...

[ConjurerDragon]

irdeggman schrieb:



>This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.

> You can view the entire thread at:

> http://www.birthright.net/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=2&t=2528

>

> irdeggman wrote:

>

...



> IMO the insanity propensity is actually casued by the long life blood ability. That is to say that creatures not normally accustomed to living a real long time have problems adjusting. Which is why Rhoube, who doesn`t have the long-life blood ability (basically becasue the authors felt he didn`t need it being an elf ad all) wouldn`t suffer the insanity potential since he has lived forever .

>

Has lived forever? I remember in his description that he was around when

men first came to Cerilia and the Aelvinnwode still reached as far as

the Maesil - but forever? I remember no hint that he was one of the

first sidhelien to be created and could just as many others be born later.



> Now why the Gorgon wouldn`t have it would have to be story driven, IMO it is his focused hatred and drive for the Iron Throne that keeps him from falling towards the obvious insanities.

>

That *is* his insanity. Driven by the thought to actually posess the

Iron Throne and receive the same reverence that his hated halfbrothers

enjoyed could drive him singlemindedly to pursue this goal at all costs,

when he could have expanded the gorgon´s crown to twice the size in all

that time.

bye

Michael

[geeman]

tcharazazel writes:



> Heheh, yeah sure sounds like obsession to me



Oh, he (the Gorgon) is crazy. The question is, "Is he game mechanically

crazy?" That is, does he suffer from some sort of game effect. Similar to

the legalistic definition of sanity, the question of the Gorgon`s mental

well-being (or lack thereof) pretty much hinges on what the actual outcome

of his psychology might be.



Gary

[RaspK_FOG]

Others made it first to the point, but I am adding my - well, more than - 2 cents here...

The Gorgon must be suffering from at least these derangements: Megalomania and Obsession, and possibly one or two of the following: Delusions, Hysteria, Paranoia, Schizophrenoia.

[geeman]

At 01:16 AM 5/15/2004 +0200, RaspK_FOG wrote:



> The Gorgon must be suffering from at least these derangements:

> Megalomania and Obsession, and possibly one or two of the following:

> Delusions, Hysteria, Paranoia, Schizophrenoia.



I think the Gorgon is deranged, but I don`t know if he`s deranged in that

way. For instance, is one technically a megalomaniac if one really is of

nearly god-like power and able to crush those around you like worms or slay

them with a mere glance? Also, when it comes to his obsessions, most of

the things that the Gorgon would obsess about he should really have

accomplished by now. After all, he`s massively powerful.... As some

people have pointed out it`s not outside the realm of possiblity that he

could have conquered Anuire right now. What`s stopping him? Well, sure it

could be that scads of people would unite against him, but it might also

have some sort of inferiority complex--the bastard child of megalomania.



When it comes to paranoia, again people really ARE out to get him, so he

could be paranoid, but just legimately so. Schiz... I`m not sure. That

one`s tough to define in the first place. He could definitely be that.



In what way is the Gorgon delusional or hysterical?



Personally, I find him to be more of a egoist sociopath. When it comes to

most of the Gorgon`s issues, however, more than a few of them are

justified. He does IMO have a right to be angry about the succession

skipping him, of being passed over for godhood, of being transformed into a

hideous parody of his former self, etc.



Gary

[Osprey]

I wouldn&#39;t even put Schizophrenia on the list of derangements for awnshegh...Delusional will cover the general confused/hallucinating effects of generic insanity, while schizophrenia is a silly catch-all psych term for "all kinds of insanity we sinmply can&#39;t figure out any rhyme or reason to."

[RaspK_FOG]

Hysteria is something I had in mind when it comes to the Gorgon for one reason only (that&#39;s why I wrote "possibly"): too many of his attempts were foiled, and that&#39;s not a very good thing for one&#39;s nerves; to top that, hysteria is mostly a minor derangement, expressing itself as angry bouts of uncontrollable anger that make themselved known (bad way to put it, actually) due to the loud shouting and stomping hysteric people are prone to perform. I know the Gorgon does not seem to be a lot like that, but who knows how he acts behind the scenes?

I am not going to discuss the psychological issues some Awnshegh may have, since that is a lot to think of. However, just allow me to say that your last mention over schizophrenia, Osprey, while not entirely off is also not quite accurate and a bit spiteful I presume... Again, I digress.

[geeman]

When it comes to countering the effects of a disadvantage a la the proposed

awnshegh character class it occurs to me that there might be other

disadvantages that might be similarly countered. For instance, the

disadvantage that changes a character`s size one category smaller might be

countered (somewhat) by a Growth spell, particularly since that spell can

be made permanent, a weakness to a particular form of energy might be

countered by the appropriate spell that absorbs/reduces damage from that

type of energy, etc. I was reluctant to include a guideline for handling

just the effects of Heal on the disadvantages based on insanity, but if

there is a possibility of several spells affecting a variety of

disadvantages I suppose a general rule might be appropriate. So, how about

something like this?



Special Note: Some disadvantages can be temporarily countered by

magic. A size decrease might be altered by a Growth spell or a character

with disadvantages based on insanity might be the subject of a Heal

spell. In such cases, the effects of such spells are always temporary,

even if the spell is normally permanent. A spell that counters a

disadvantage can never remain in effect for longer than the caster`s

spellcaster level less twice the number of disadvantages that are being

countered. For example, a Heal spell cast by a 16th level cleric upon a

character with Phobia 1, 2, 3 and 4 would remain in effect for 16 (2 x 4)

= 8 hours.



Gary

[Osprey]

Works OK I suppose - I think just making a note that such things are never permanent is sufficient to keep the disadvantages from being abused/permanently countered. The guidelines for how spells work, well...maybe just seperate that as an example for DM&#39;s to use as a guideline.

Osprey

[RaspK_FOG]

I will side with Osprey; it is generally better to put a guideline there, so that players don&#39;t argue with their DMs on that. I actually suggest that you make this even clearer, like saying: "The effects of some disadvantages are more persistent, and thus do not get countered for as long as the rest; the opposite may be true as well. For example...", etc.