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the Falcon
03-15-2004, 09:28 PM
I've taken the time to make some example Unearthed Arcana style bloodlines for Birthright. I'll put each in a seperate post. Please tell me what you think.

First off:

(major) Bloodline of Anduiras

Level, Trait: +2 bonus on Intimidate
Power Attack
Str +2
Gust of wind 1/day (Sp)
Bloodmark +1
Resistance to electricity 5 (Ex)
+2 bonus on Jump
Cleave
Cha +2
+1 natural armor
Bloodmark +2
Resistance to electricity 10 (Ex)
+2 bonus on Heal
Call lightning 1/day (Sp)
Wis +2
Gaseous form 1/day (Sp)
Bloodmark +3
+1 natural armor
+2 bonus on Sense Motive
Immunity to electricity (Ex)
Bloodmark: You gain the indicated bonus on all Bluff, Diplomacy, Gather Information, Intimidate, and Perform checks made to interact with non-blooded creatures as long as your bloodmark is visible to them.

As you can see, I've made a couple of minor changes to the UA bloodline template (for lack of a better word), which I think will make them more suitable for Birthright.
I'd like to hear what others think of my approach.

UA Bloodlines for the other derivations will follow shortly, as soon as I've got time for them.

RaspK_FOG
03-16-2004, 02:08 AM
It would be nice to hear what this represents for those who have reviewed only part of the book, or know too little of it... Furthermore, to me, this listing seems a bit... blunt?! I don't know, it just is kind of colourless and uncharacterising.

Azrai
03-16-2004, 10:44 AM
The UA Bloodlines can't be compared to the Birthright Bloodlines. IMO they are
totally different stuff - apart from the title.

The new system has not the flair of the old one, in addition its the hell
for power gamers ;)

As a result, IMO this system should not be used.

Ariadne
03-16-2004, 04:05 PM
I'm of same opinion. The bloodlines of UA are a nice concept, but not fitting for BR. Apart from, that you should define minor, intermediate and major lines (if copying UA), your system takes any individuality of the bloodlines. Each Andurias blooded would have the same abilties with the same strength. There would be no familiy with a long livespan any more, as well as other abilities tied to one specific family (say families who love lions :D ). A bit boring, if you ask me...

the Falcon
03-18-2004, 06:04 PM
Originally posted by Ariadne+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Ariadne)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Apart from, that you should define minor, intermediate and major lines (if copying UA), your system takes any individuality of the bloodlines.[/b]
Intermediate always simply gets the first 10 traits, one trait every 2 levels. Minor always gets the first 5 traits, one every 4 levels. Major gets all, one trait per level. It&#39;s so simple, I thought I didn&#39;t have to repeat it here. But hey, here it is anyway.
Anyways, I didn&#39;t mean it was a "sample", I should&#39;ve said it was an "example". Which means it&#39;s just one possible bloodline of Anduiras.
My "system"? It&#39;s not any "system", honey. I fail to see how it takes any individuality out of any bloodlines. No, wait -- I don&#39;t care. I think there&#39;s plenty of individuality to go around already in v3.5 without needing custom-tailored bloodlines. However, if any of my players should so desire, I&#39;ll be happy to cooperate.


Originally posted by Ariadne@
Each Andurias blooded would have the same abilties with the same strength. There would be no familiy with a long livespan any more, as well as other abilities tied to one specific family (say families who love lions :D).
Oh come on, that one&#39;s plain lame.

<!--QuoteBegin-Ariadne
A bit boring, if you ask me...[/quote]
I suppose I haven&#39;t been clear and phrased myself a bit open-endedly, but this really isn&#39;t the kind of feedback I&#39;m looking for.

the Falcon
03-18-2004, 06:07 PM
Originally posted by RaspK_FOG@Mar 16 2004, 04:08 AM
It would be nice to hear what this represents for those who have reviewed only part of the book, or know too little of it... Furthermore, to me, this listing seems a bit... blunt?&#33; I don&#39;t know, it just is kind of colourless and uncharacterising.
The listing represents the traits that a character with a major bloodline of Anduiras could get at each character level.
As for your other comment/question, why should I have to come up with new flavor text? It&#39;s already there. It&#39;s the game mechanics that need reworking.

the Falcon
03-18-2004, 06:09 PM
Originally posted by Ariadne@Mar 16 2004, 06:05 PM
I&#39;m of same opinion. The bloodlines of UA are a nice concept, but not fitting for BR.
By the way, what exactly is so not fitting about UA bloodlines for Br? Explain yourself.

RaspK_FOG
03-19-2004, 12:57 AM
Originally posted by the Falcon+Mar 18 2004, 09:07 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (the Falcon @ Mar 18 2004, 09:07 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-RaspK_FOG@Mar 16 2004, 04:08 AM
It would be nice to hear what this represents for those who have reviewed only part of the book, or know too little of it... Furthermore, to me, this listing seems a bit... blunt?&#33; I don&#39;t know, it just is kind of colourless and uncharacterising.
The listing represents the traits that a character with a major bloodline of Anduiras could get at each character level.
As for your other comment/question, why should I have to come up with new flavor text? It&#39;s already there. It&#39;s the game mechanics that need reworking. [/b][/quote]
Thank you for the feedback. As for the comment, I meant it felt blunt being put that way due to the lack of explanation... Now it doesn&#39;t feel blunt (that is, there is no further need for explanation).

As a last note, however, I think that giving a small list with choices at every × levels with all the others being standard would be a bit more interesting; I do not mean that this is not, just that players enjoy making their characters unique in some sense.

Raesene Andu
03-20-2004, 12:52 AM
I read through the section on bloodline in UA last week and was not overly impressed by the whole section. My main problem with the ideas presented in UA was the lack of choice given to the blooded character. Two characters with the same strength bloodline of the same derivation will always have the same abilities, and that just doesn&#39;t fit the BR setting IMO.

It would certainly be possible to create a system like that presented in UA for BR, but it would be much more restrictive that the current one.

ecliptic
03-20-2004, 09:22 PM
Restrictive is good, because restrictive keeps things balanced.

RaspK_FOG
03-20-2004, 10:39 PM
I disagree... If that is the case, it would be more balancing if only humans were allowed in Birthright settings (by default&#33;), each class could choose only specific feats, etc... In other words, the 2e approach? While I agree that 3._e has some particular downsides which are further pronounced when it comes to Birthright (like the standard XP and treasure awards, which can simply be cut down to half or less), it generally has many benefits against its predecessor...

kgauck
03-21-2004, 09:20 AM
----- Original Message -----

From: "ecliptic" <brnetboard@BIRTHRIGHT.NET>

Sent: Saturday, March 20, 2004 3:22 PM



> Restrictive is good, because restrictive keeps things balanced.



While this is true, restrictions are probabaly the worst way to meet equity

goals in gaming. Balance is best addressed by considering the implications

of a given ability. Paper beats rock, but its not very good against

scissors.



Balance has two functions, both are examples of good book-keeping. Neither

have anything to do with story or adventure, or any reason that makes sense

in the game. Restrictions often do creep into the game and restrict story

or heroicism, &c.



Kenneth Gauck

kgauck@mchsi.com

Ariadne
03-22-2004, 12:11 AM
Originally posted by the Falcon
By the way, what exactly is so not fitting about UA bloodlines for Br? Explain yourself.

The UA bloodline creations are a nice idea for campaigns like FR or Grayhawk, but the special about BR bloodlines are the individuality and the variations of each bloodline. I read, Raesene Andu is of same opinion as I: Each character of same bloodline derivation and strength is completely identical. This violates the understanding of BR bloodlines. See, as I tries to tell you already: Each family of Anduiras with major (=great) bloodline would have the same abilites&#33; There would be nothing like witten in the BR novels: One family has Long Live and the Roeles have nearly every blood ability tied to Anduiras found on the tables.

So my idea to modify your idea is: Add some randomness to it. Don’t write: Granted feat (Power Attack), but : Roll 1d6 to get 1 blood ability tied to feats. Don’t write: +2 to jump skill, but: Roll 1d6 to get +2 to a blood ability tied to skills (and the enhancements to this skill later). And instead “Gust of Wind” something like the special abilities found within the blood ability tables.

Further I woudn’t grant +2 to ability scores each time, because UA grants only +1 each time too. Those electricity things aren’t that fitting too IMO, because Anduiras is the god of noble war and the sky. Electricity things are something especially for Cuiraécen, and only he should grant resistance and immunity to it (it shouldn’t be able to get it inherited by any other god, even his “ancestor”).

I know, adding d6 (or whatever) roles into a “modified” UA table isn’t the same as presented in UA, but so what: BR is unique. Some guys don’t like to role (but that’s the special fun about bloodlines IMO), so they might choose between several abilities to make it more variable. If the bloodline system I suggested is balanced I don’t know, this would have to be written exactly and tested.

The UA blood tables as they are presented are like chains for BR. Even if made like I suggested, it might be too restrictive. That’s why I don’t think it fits to BR (at least unmodified).

Ariadne
03-22-2004, 12:11 AM
Originally posted by ecliptic
Restrictive is good, because restrictive keeps things balanced.
Well, you can balance yourself to death...

Restrictions take any fun of the game&#33; For balance: Watch players (or let your DM watching) that they don’t get overpowered and otherwise let them their freedom&#33; If not you can stop gaming at all...

RaspK_FOG
03-22-2004, 12:29 AM
Generally, however, if one wants to go that way (which is the reason I answered back as such), it seems just fine...

As for lightning and stuff, it&#39;s the sky (Air as an element more specifically) that is generally tied with it. Fire is similarly tied with (fire and) light, earth with acid, and water with cold... Well, in D&D logic; I think the fire-water axis makes the most reason.

Ariadne
03-22-2004, 01:21 PM
Originally posted by RaspK_FOG@Mar 22 2004, 01:29 AM
Generally, however, if one wants to go that way (which is the reason I answered back as such), it seems just fine...


Nobody said, he can&#39;t use his model for his campaign. Nearly everybody within the BR community uses house rules (me included), so naturally it&#39;s just fine...

irdeggman
03-22-2004, 05:58 PM
The problems I have with trying to use the UA bloodlines to capture the BR ones are as follows:

(1) UA bloodlines are a means to impart physical characteristics associated with a different type of creature, such as a dragon, giant, celestial, or demon. While this could be extrapolated to include gods, it is a rather straight jacketed approach with no randomness applied.

(2) There are bloodline levels. That is a character has to take a bloodline level before reaching certain character levels or suffer exp penalties. Minor bloodlines have to take a bloodline level by 12 the, Intermediate have to take their 1st bloodline level by 6th and their 2nd by 12th while Major have to take their 1st by 3rd, their 2nd by 6th and 3rd by 12th. These are empty levels, that is they grant no hit dice, BAB, saving throw bonuses or skill points. This is a way to account for the inherent level adjustment of the system, but is rather awkward and IMO would cause players to feel gypped by the process.

(3) There is no tie to the blood score of 2nd ed. That is so say that everything is character level based. No ability gains based on increased blood score. There would be difficulty trying to tie this system into the BR system that rewards a regent for being a good steward.

(4) Back to the no randomness. All characters with the same bloodline gain the same abilities, albeit at different levels (and strengths) depending on the strength of the bloodline (i.e., Minor, Intermediate or Major).

Having said all of that, I can see how this approach could be used for a basis to develop awnsh/ersh progression.

Adding randomness (or variation) as has been suggested by some, could work, but then why bother with the UA bloodline system at all? I mean it would be right back into a random table type of system for determining abilities.

As far as specific comments on the example provided:

This would grant all scions of Anduiras with a bloodmark. This becomes a target on all of them.

Since Anduiras was the god of noble war and leadership – it would seem that things more along those lines would be more appropriate. Things like pluses to leadership score, pluses to Diplomacy (maybe this one is better for Masela), the pluses to Sense Motive fit since he couldn’t be deceived. Some type of animal based abilities could be made to fit in – things associated with lions: courage, fearlessness (pluses to will saves). The emphasis on the elemental nature is, IMO, too focused. Some sort of rage ability might also be fitting.

Just suggestions.

the Falcon
03-23-2004, 01:13 PM
While I was at first a bit resistant to all the criticism, now that it has been more properly argumented, I do think you people have a point.
I&#39;ll rewrite the system to allow for more variation and choice. I&#39;ll post (part of) it, once I have had the time to come up with something concrete, but I already do have a good idea now of what I can do to improve the system. Indeed, a system. ^_^

Oh, and there&#39;s no tie-back to the blood score system, because I just haven&#39;t settled on any particular blood score system yet... :rolleyes:

ecliptic
03-24-2004, 01:07 AM
(3) There is no tie to the blood score of 2nd ed. That is so say that everything is character level based. No ability gains based on increased blood score. There would be difficulty trying to tie this system into the BR system that rewards a regent for being a good steward.

Shouldn&#39;t try and tie the blood scoresystem to begin with. Whats with wanting to keep with the past instead of looking to the future?

irdeggman
03-24-2004, 10:58 AM
Originally posted by ecliptic@Mar 23 2004, 08:07 PM

(3) There is no tie to the blood score of 2nd ed. That is so say that everything is character level based. No ability gains based on increased blood score. There would be difficulty trying to tie this system into the BR system that rewards a regent for being a good steward.

Shouldn&#39;t try and tie the blood scoresystem to begin with. Whats with wanting to keep with the past instead of looking to the future?
Dropping the aspects of regency and bloodline score could work in an adventure level based campaign since it really only comes into significance at the domain level.

For Domain level play, which includes most PBEM games it is important to address this issue in some manner.

How exactly do you go about handling domain level play? Or do you run an adventure-based camapaign?

RaspK_FOG
03-24-2004, 05:15 PM
In all cases, there are three basic ways of thinking (a common pattern, really):
The one extreme, which supports the one idea in an all-out fashion. The defended cocnept can be offense-over-defense in martial arts, leaving the past behind, communism, or whatever...
There also is the other extreme, which supports the other concept in an all-out fashion. This could be a defense-onver offense approach in martial arts, respecting and upholding tradition above all else, or even fascism.
The last of the three is not mediocricy, as some people think of it, but being impartial instead. This means the person who utilises defense and offense as seen fit in martial arts, who respects tradition but does not get stuck with it, and who realises the benefits of socialism and capitalism and does as seen fit.

While this approach seems like one has not really made a choice, it is not actually so. It reflects wisdom, to strive for what works best than to actually work only one way or another. Inflexibility and disability to evolve result in fatal mistakes, not to mention they are fatal mistakes themselves.

So, by accepting the past, but actually working around its errors to our best interests is really the goal; saying "the past was just a mistake, so we must work things out all over" is mostly self-righteous, and does not realise that working on a new basis only helps a system deteriorate, since mistakes are a fundamental part of reality. It is not a matter of whether you actually make no mistakes, but whether you can survive and work around such errors...

Building a new system for Birthright won&#39;t allow for a reestablishment of Birthright, rather, it will simply recreate it, without space for reevaluation. In other words, it won&#39;t be Birthright, it will simply be Birthright-like.

the Falcon
03-25-2004, 03:31 PM
Originally posted by Ariadne+Mar 22 2004, 02:11 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Ariadne &#064; Mar 22 2004, 02:11 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>So my idea to modify your idea is: Add some randomness to it. Don’t write: Granted feat (Power Attack), but : Roll 1d6 to get 1 blood ability tied to feats. Don’t write: +2 to jump skill, but: Roll 1d6 to get +2 to a blood ability tied to skills (and the enhancements to this skill later). And instead “Gust of Wind” something like the special abilities found within the blood ability tables.[/b]I think adding randomness would seriously make things worse. I can see the point of introducing choice to allow players more control over the development of their characters. Randomness with permanent results sounds like a pretty bad idea to me.

<!--QuoteBegin-Ariadne@Mar 22 2004, 02:11 AM
Further I woudn’t grant +2 to ability scores each time, because UA grants only +1 each time too. Those electricity things aren’t that fitting too IMO, because Anduiras is the god of noble war and the sky. Electricity things are something especially for Cuiraécen, and only he should grant resistance and immunity to it (it shouldn’t be able to get it inherited by any other god, even his “ancestor”).[/quote]Oh yes, I would grant a +2 bonus. It fits much better into the whole D&D 3e design. A +2 bonus doesn&#39;t give an unfair advantage to someone who just happens to have an uneven number for that particular ability score. A +1 bonus doesn&#39;t help you at all if your ability score is even.

the Falcon
03-25-2004, 04:56 PM
Okay, here&#39;s my revised system for bloodlines. Below is the general progression for a major bloodline. An intermediate bloodline grants traits as if you had a major bloodline at half your character level. A minor bloodline grants traits as if you had a intermediate bloodline at half your character level.
In order to benefit from a major bloodline you must take a Bloodline level at 3rd character level, 6th character level, and 12th character level. An intermediate bloodline requires a Bloodline level at 6th character level and 12th character level. A minor bloodline requires a Bloodline level only at 12th character level. If you don&#39;t take a Bloodline level before or at the appropriate character levels, you stop accumulating bloodline traits until you take the required bloodline level. A Bloodline level doesn&#39;t give you any improvement in Hit Dice, BAB, Saves or Skill Points, but it does give you a +1 bonus on your class level when calculating variables dependent on class levels such as spell durations, caster level checks, save DCs, etc.


MAJOR BLOODLINE TRAITS

Character Level, Trait: Skill Boost
Blood Ability
Ability Boost
Blood Ability
Bloodmark +1
Blood Ability
Skill Boost
Blood Ability
Ability Boost
Blood Ability
Bloodmark +2
Blood Ability
Skill Boost
Blood Ability
Ability Boost
Blood Ability
Bloodmark +3
Blood Ability
Skill Boost
Blood Ability

Skill Boost: Choose one skill from your derivation&#39;s list. You receive a +2 bonus on checks made with the chosen skill. Each time you gain a skill boost, it applies to a new skill. (You cannot select the same skill twice.)
Anduiras: Diplomacy, Heal, Intimidate, Jump, Knowledge (any one).
Azrai: Bluff, Diplomacy, Disguise, Intimidate, Knowledge (any one), Listen, Search, Spot.
Basaļa: Diplomacy, Heal, Intimidate, Knowledge (any one), Listen, Sense Motive, Spot.
Brenna: Balance, Diplomacy, Disguise, Hide, Listen, Move Silently, Sense Motive, Spot, Tumble.
Masela: Appraise, Gather Information, Intimidate, Knowledge (any one), Perform, Swim.
Reynir: Climb, Heal, Knowledge (any one), Listen, Search, Spot.
Vorynn: Concentration, Disguise, Gather Information, Knowledge (any one), Sense Motive.

Blood Ability: You gain a blood ability of your choice. All blood abilities have prerequisites. Your character must have the indicated bloodline derivation, bloodline strength, character level, or blood ability in order to select the blood ability. You can gain a blood ability at the same level at which you gain the prerequisite. All spell-like abilities granted by blood abilities use the character&#39;s number of Hit Dice as the spellcaster level. Unless specified otherwise, you can take each blood ability only once.

Ability Boost: Choose one ability score from your derivation&#39;s list. You gain a permanent +2 increase to the chosen ability score. Each time you gain an ability boost, it applies to a new ability score. (You cannot select the same ability score twice.)
Anduiras: Strength, Wisdom, Charisma.
Azrai: Constitution, Intelligence, Charisma.
Basaļa: Intelligence, Wisdom, Charisma.
Brenna: Dexterity, Wisdom, Charisma.
Masela: Dexterity, Constitution, Charisma.
Reynir: Dexterity, Constitution, Wisdom.
Vorynn: Constitution, Intelligence, Wisdom.

Bloodmark: You gain the indicated bonus on all Bluff, Diplomacy, Gather Information, Intimidate, and Perform checks made to interact with non-blooded creatures as long as your bloodmark is visible to them.


Some blood abilities will follow in my next post.
Also, if you have any suggestions for additions or modifications to the Skill Boost list of skills per derivation, be my guest.
Whatever you suggest, please, support it with arguments. Thank you.

the Falcon
03-25-2004, 04:58 PM
Note: Especially the list of bonus feats per derivation could use some improvements. Suggestions welcome.


BLOOD ABILITY DESCRIPTIONS

ALTER SELF
Derivations: Azrai, Brenna, Vorynn.
Minimum Character Level: Minor 8th, intermediate 4th, major 2nd.
Benefit: Alter self 1/day (Sp).

BONUS FEAT
Derivations: All.
Minimum Character Level: Minor 8th, intermediate 4th, major 2nd.
Benefit: Choose one feat from your derivation&#39;s list. You gain that feat as a bonus feat. You still must meet all the normal prerequisites for the feat in order to be able to take it.
Anduiras: Power Attack, Cleave, Great Cleave, Improved Bull Rush, Improved Overrun, Improved Sunder.
Azrai: Alertness, Great Fortitude, Iron Will, Stealthy.
Basaļa: Far Shot, Improved Precise Shot, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, Manyshot.
Brenna: Dodge, Lightning Reflexes, Mobility, Spring Attack, Stealthy.
Masela: Combat Reflexes, Weapon Finesse.
Reynir: Alertness, Great Fortitude, Iron Will.
Vorynn: Blind-Fight, Improved Initiative, Weapon Finesse.

CHARM PERSON
Derivations: Azrai, Basaļa, Brenna.
Minimum Character Level: Minor 16th, intermediate 8th, major 4th.
Benefit: Charm person 1/day (Sp).

DARKNESS
Derivations: Azrai, Brenna.
Minimum Character Level: Minor 16th, intermediate 8th, major 4th.
Benefit: Darkness 1/day (Sp).

DETECT POISON
Derivations: Azrai, Reynir.
Minimum Character Level: Minor 16th, intermediate 8th, major 4th.
Benefit: Detect poison 1/day (Sp).

DETECT THOUGHTS
Derivations: Basaļa, Brenna, Vorynn.
Minimum Character Level: Minor 16th, intermediate 8th, major 4th.
Benefit: Detect thoughts 1/day (Sp).

DOUBLE HEAL RATE
Derivations: Reynir.
Minimum Character Level: Minor 16th, intermediate 8th, major 4th.
Benefit: You heal naturally at double normal heal rates. This is an extraordinary ability.

ENERGY RESISTANCE, MINOR
Derivations: Anduiras, Basaļa, Masela, Reynir.
Minimum Character Level: Minor 16th, intermediate 8th, major 4th.
Benefit: You gain resistance 5 against the energy type associated with your derivation.
Anduiras: electricity.
Basaļa: fire.
Masela: acid.
Reynir: cold.

ENERGY RESISTANCE, MAJOR
Derivations: Anduiras, Basaļa, Masela, Reynir.
Minimum Character Level: Intermediate 16th, major 8th.
Prerequisite Blood Ability: Minor Energy Resistance.
Benefit: You gain resistance 10 against the energy type associated with your derivation.
Anduiras: electricity.
Basaļa: fire.
Masela: acid.
Reynir: cold.

FOG CLOUD
Derivations: Masela.
Minimum Character Level: Minor 16th, intermediate 8th, major 4th.
Benefit: Fog cloud 1/day (Sp).

GUST OF WIND
Derivations: Anduiras.
Minimum Character Level: Minor 16th, intermediate 8th, major 4th.
Benefit: Gust of wind 1/day (Sp).

IMPROVED NATURAL ARMOR
Derivations: All.
Minimum Character Level: Minor 16th, intermediate 8th, major 4th.
Benefit: You gain a +1 bonus to your natural armor.
Special: You can take this blood ability more than once. Each time you take it, its effects stack.

INVISIBILITY
Derivations: Azrai, Brenna.
Minimum Character Level: Minor 16th, intermediate 8th, major 4th.
Benefit: Invisibility 1/day (Sp).

LEVITATE
Derivations: Anduiras, Vorynn.
Minimum Character Level: Minor 16th, intermediate 8th, major 4th.
Benefit: Levitate 1/day (Sp).

LOW-LIGHT VISION
Derivations: Azrai, Brenna.
Minimum Character Level: Minor 16th, intermediate 8th, major 4th.
Benefit: You gain low-light vision.

MELD INTO STONE
Derivations: Reynir.
Minimum Character Level: Minor 16th, intermediate 8th, major 4th.
Benefit: Meld into stone 1/day (Sp).

OBSCURING MIST
Derivations: Masela.
Minimum Character Level: Intermediate 12th, major 6th.
Benefit: Obscuring mist 1/day (Sp).

PYROTECHNICS
Derivations: Basaļa.
Minimum Character Level: Minor 16th, intermediate 8th, major 4th.
Benefit: Pyrotechnics 1/day (Sp).

SCENT
Derivations: Reynir.
Minimum Character Level: Minor 16th, intermediate 8th, major 4th.
Benefit: Scent (Ex).

SHATTER
Derivations: Vorynn.
Minimum Character Level: Minor 16th, intermediate 8th, major 4th.
Benefit: Shatter 1/day (Sp).

SPELL RESISTANCE
Derivations: Vorynn.
Minimum Character Level: Minor 16th, intermediate 8th, major 4th.
Benefit: You gain spell resistance equal to 2 plus your number of Hit Dice.

STONE SHAPE
Derivations: Reynir.
Minimum Character Level: Intermediate 12th, major 6th.
Benefit: Stone shape 1/day (Sp).


EDIT: Oh, mind you, this is only a partial list; it includes only the lower level blood abilities. I haven&#39;t had the time to type out the higher level blood abilities yet.

irdeggman
03-26-2004, 10:59 AM
I actually think that this makes the original proposal even worse.

What you have essentially done is create a &#39;generic&#39; scion class, with no hit die/BAB/Saving throw bonuses/Skill points, if you step back and look at it from a distance. This is drastically different than the UA bloodlines. Just an opinion.

the Falcon
03-28-2004, 10:45 AM
Originally posted by irdeggman+Mar 26 2004, 12:59 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (irdeggman &#064; Mar 26 2004, 12:59 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>What you have essentially done is create a &#39;generic&#39; scion class, with no hit die/BAB/Saving throw bonuses/Skill points, if you step back and look at it from a distance.[/b]No, I haven&#39;t. You still only have to take one, two, or three level in Bloodline. This is not a full-fledged, generic class. Or if that&#39;s not what you mean, please explain yourself better.


Originally posted by irdeggman@Mar 26 2004, 12:59 PM
This is drastically different than the UA bloodlines. Just an opinion.Yes, it&#39;s a little bit different from the UA bloodlines, but drastically? Hardly, I think. It&#39;s just UA bloodlines but with added flexibility. So instead of having to make something like 20+ bloodlines, like they did in UA, you can let the players compose their own bloodlines. The end result, however, is not that much different from the bloodlines you can find in UA.

<!--QuoteBegin-irdeggman@Mar 26 2004, 12:59 PM
I actually think that this makes the original proposal even worse.[/quote]How? Why? Explain yourself. You have not presented me with any concrete arguments to support this view.

irdeggman
03-28-2004, 12:26 PM
QUOTE (irdeggman @ Mar 26 2004, 12:59 PM)
What you have essentially done is create a &#39;generic&#39; scion class, with no hit die/BAB/Saving throw bonuses/Skill points, if you step back and look at it from a distance.

No, I haven&#39;t. You still only have to take one, two, or three level in Bloodline. This is not a full-fledged, generic class. Or if that&#39;s not what you mean, please explain yourself better.

What I meant was that in addition to the normal bloodline class levels required, the progression that grants a choice of abilities (that is any blood ability that the scion meets the prerequisites for). This method is almost identical to that of the way classes grant class abilities. For example the fighter feats, the ranger feats, etc.



QUOTE (irdeggman @ Mar 26 2004, 12:59 PM)
This is drastically different than the UA bloodlines. Just an opinion.

Yes, it&#39;s a little bit different from the UA bloodlines, but drastically? Hardly, I think. It&#39;s just UA bloodlines but with added flexibility. So instead of having to make something like 20+ bloodlines, like they did in UA, you can let the players compose their own bloodlines. The end result, however, is not that much different from the bloodlines you can find in UA.

Actually it is still quite a bit different. The UA bloodlines are a method of defining (and granting) physical attributes that are common to the source creature. Once the randomness was added this definition became very blurred.



QUOTE (irdeggman @ Mar 26 2004, 12:59 PM)
I actually think that this makes the original proposal even worse.

How? Why? Explain yourself. You have not presented me with any concrete arguments to support this view.

I hope I have made it a little clearer what I meant with my explanation. But what I was trying to say was that the original proposal had a clear definition of the physical characteristic of deity. That definition needed tweaking IMO, but there was one. The original proposal had the scion with the bloodline start to pick up those physical characteristics as he gained levels. This was in direct following with the mechanics and obvious intent of the UA bloodline system. The present proposal with all of the options based on choices of blood abilities straws a lot from that original (and the UA) tact.


The more I look at the UA bloodline system, the more I think that it would very easily be adapted to address Awn/ersh. I would just have 2 applicable levels though Minor (UA definition) that translates to Bloodform - major and Major (UA definition) that translates to Bloodform - great. Since 2nd ed had the awn transformation progression depending on how often the scion used his blood abilities (a really vague definition after all) a character level based equivalent could be pretty mechanically representative. This system would then result in an additional +1 or +2 to the scion&#39;s effective level based on how far the transformation went. These are in addition to any gained by gaining blood abilities themselves (using the BRCS system it would be in addition to any scion class levels). The physical base would have to be some monster or animal type from the MM and then those physical attributes would have to be broken down. Each scion would have a unique advancement.

Now it might vary from the UA system if the character level progression was changed to the levels after gaining bloodform or bloodtrait blood abilities. This would be change from the UA system, but might not be that bad, hmmm. {pondering, pondering}

the Falcon
03-28-2004, 07:10 PM
Originally posted by irdeggman+Mar 28 2004, 02:26 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (irdeggman &#064; Mar 28 2004, 02:26 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>



Originally posted by irdeggman @ Mar 26 2004@ 12:59 PM
What you have essentially done is create a &#39;generic&#39; scion class, with no hit die/BAB/Saving throw bonuses/Skill points, if you step back and look at it from a distance.
No, I haven&#39;t. You still only have to take one, two, or three level in Bloodline. This is not a full-fledged, generic class. Or if that&#39;s not what you mean, please explain yourself better.
What I meant was that in addition to the normal bloodline class levels required, the progression that grants a choice of abilities (that is any blood ability that the scion meets the prerequisites for). This method is almost identical to that of the way classes grant class abilities. For example the fighter feats, the ranger feats, etc.




Originally posted by irdeggman @ Mar 26 2004@ 12:59 PM
This is drastically different than the UA bloodlines. Just an opinion.
Yes, it&#39;s a little bit different from the UA bloodlines, but drastically? Hardly, I think. It&#39;s just UA bloodlines but with added flexibility. So instead of having to make something like 20+ bloodlines, like they did in UA, you can let the players compose their own bloodlines. The end result, however, is not that much different from the bloodlines you can find in UA.
Actually it is still quite a bit different. The UA bloodlines are a method of defining (and granting) physical attributes that are common to the source creature. Once the randomness was added this definition became very blurred.
[/b]I didn&#39;t add any randomness. I added choice. To me there&#39;s a difference. Anyhow, more flexibility is what has been requested, so that&#39;s what I&#39;ve aimed for.


Originally posted by irdeggman@Mar 28 2004, 02:26 PM



<!--QuoteBegin-irdeggman @ Mar 26 2004@ 12:59 PM
I actually think that this makes the original proposal even worse.
How? Why? Explain yourself. You have not presented me with any concrete arguments to support this view.
I hope I have made it a little clearer what I meant with my explanation. But what I was trying to say was that the original proposal had a clear definition of the physical characteristic of deity. That definition needed tweaking IMO, but there was one. The original proposal had the scion with the bloodline start to pick up those physical characteristics as he gained levels. This was in direct following with the mechanics and obvious intent of the UA bloodline system. The present proposal with all of the options based on choices of blood abilities straws a lot from that original (and the UA) tact.
[/quote]It is quite clear what you meant with your explanation, but you still fail to show how your arguments support your conclusion that "this this makes the original proposal even worse". Suppose my current "proposal" (Who am I proposing to? What am I proposing for?) is more class-like than my original proposal. Suppose it is "drastically different than than the UA bloodlines". So what? How does that make it worse? Why is that bad? You still haven&#39;t told me. It simply doesn&#39;t follow.

jdpb1
04-08-2004, 02:43 AM
Hey Falcon&#33;

I, for one, really like what you&#39;re doing with the UA bloodline thing. I started to work out a conversion just recently. I am far from finished, and now I&#39;m thrilled to come across your version. I think the choice aspect you&#39;ve added is great.

I&#39;d love to see your write ups for higher level powers&#33;

I&#39;ve been lurking on this board for about three years now. I&#39;ve gotten great use out of the BRCS Playtest doc and Travis Doom&#39;s conversion, but this is the first time I&#39;ve felt compelled to post. The forums seem to be filled with a lot of naysayers and pointless arguments, but guys like you who take the time and effort to post fleshed out ideas are a great asset.

The bloodline conversion has been the true sticking point for 3E BR. The versions offered in the afrementioned documents proved unwieldy in my games and have forced my group to abandon BR for a while until I can figure out a fix. With the superb UA book and your work here, I just may have found a solution. Thanks&#33;

Keep up the good work&#33;

Joe

PS-- No system, including the UA version, will be perfect. Let&#39;s face it, the 2E BR Bloodlines were far from perfect. I think it is pointless to argue about the conversion the way many here do. How on earth can we argue for a balanced, consistent, rules compatible bloodline system in 3E and also demand it be a faithful conversion from 2E? The 2E version was an unbalanced, inconsistent, add-on ruleset&#33;

Just my 2 cents&#33; :)

jdpb1
04-08-2004, 03:26 AM
Two quick additions:

My rant about pointless bickering was directed at the masses of forum posters in general, not specifically at the guys criticizing you in this thread.


The very valid point has been raised: how do we integrate blood score in this UA version of bloodline? I think it might be easiest to simply have the score work the same as 2e. Afterall, its only effect in 2E was in domain level play. It is only the 3E conversions that have tried to directly link the score with blood powers. What if we simply kept it as a 1-100 score that fluctuates primarily with domain actions and bloodtheft and has little to no bearing on blood ability?

Thanks
Joe

irdeggman
04-08-2004, 10:17 AM
Originally posted by jdpb1@Apr 7 2004, 10:26 PM

The very valid point has been raised: how do we integrate blood score in this UA version of bloodline? I think it might be easiest to simply have the score work the same as 2e. Afterall, its only effect in 2E was in domain level play. It is only the 3E conversions that have tried to directly link the score with blood powers. What if we simply kept it as a 1-100 score that fluctuates primarily with domain actions and bloodtheft and has little to no bearing on blood ability?

Thanks
Joe
Actually it was the score itself that determined the number of blood abilities and not the strength (i.e., minor/major/great/true).

Based on the score (in 2nd ed), a scion had certain percentage chance of gaining abilities and levels of abilities. So it wasn&#39;t a recent development that tied blood score to the number of abilities gained.

jdpb1
04-09-2004, 12:23 AM
***Based on the score (in 2nd ed), a scion had certain percentage chance of gaining abilities and levels of abilities. So it wasn&#39;t a recent development that tied blood score to the number of abilities gained***

You&#39;re absolutely right, of course. I meant that the score didn&#39;t affect the powers in the way the conversions have it (e.g. modifers to rolls; blood score checks, etc.)
:)

To integrate the two, how about this:

Upon character creation a bloodscore is generated via some method. A character with a score < 30 may take a minor bloddline if desired. A scion with blood score >=30 and <60 could choose a minor or intermediate bloodline. A higher Blood score allows the choice of major BL. The normal UA bloodline level requirements apply.

During the game, anytime a scion&#39;s blood score exceeds these thresholds, he may choose to "upgrade" his bloodline one grade. If the scion has exceeded the levels required by the UA bloodline level guidelines, then the PC must take a bloodline level as his next character level, and his upgraded bloodline will NOT take effect until this level-up.

EXAMPLE: A 7th level scion with a minor bloodline and no "bloodline levels" crosses the 30 bloodscore threshold via bloodtheft and chooses to upgrade to intermediate. Since an intermediate bloodline requires a bloodline level no later than sixth character level, the scion is required to take a bloodline level at 8th level. His Intermediate level powers do not manifest or function until this occurs.

Had the scion been 4th level upon reaching a 30 bloodscore, then his Intermediate bloodline would become active immediately.

A non-blooded character who becomes blooded follows these same rules.

There is alot of room to tweak, of course. The threshold numbers could be adjusted. Initial bloodscore generation methods can vary. The DM could require that the upgrade decision be made only at the moment of bloodscore increase (e.g. as soon as bloodtheft occurs) and is irrevocable OR he might choose to allow the upgrade option to be exercised anytime after the threshold is reached. Unfortunatley, the UA system does not account for True bloodlines either.


Just some thoughts off the top of my head. :rolleyes:

Thanks for reading&#33;

Joe

irdeggman
04-09-2004, 10:04 AM
Originally posted by jdpb1@Apr 8 2004, 07:23 PM
To integrate the two, how about this:

Upon character creation a bloodscore is generated via some method. A character with a score < 30 may take a minor bloddline if desired. A scion with blood score >=30 and <60 could choose a minor or intermediate bloodline. A higher Blood score allows the choice of major BL. The normal UA bloodline level requirements apply.

During the game, anytime a scion&#39;s blood score exceeds these thresholds, he may choose to "upgrade" his bloodline one grade. If the scion has exceeded the levels required by the UA bloodline level guidelines, then the PC must take a bloodline level as his next character level, and his upgraded bloodline will NOT take effect until this level-up.

EXAMPLE: A 7th level scion with a minor bloodline and no "bloodline levels" crosses the 30 bloodscore threshold via bloodtheft and chooses to upgrade to intermediate. Since an intermediate bloodline requires a bloodline level no later than sixth character level, the scion is required to take a bloodline level at 8th level. His Intermediate level powers do not manifest or function until this occurs.

Had the scion been 4th level upon reaching a 30 bloodscore, then his Intermediate bloodline would become active immediately.

A non-blooded character who becomes blooded follows these same rules.

There is alot of room to tweak, of course. The threshold numbers could be adjusted. Initial bloodscore generation methods can vary. The DM could require that the upgrade decision be made only at the moment of bloodscore increase (e.g. as soon as bloodtheft occurs) and is irrevocable OR he might choose to allow the upgrade option to be exercised anytime after the threshold is reached. Unfortunatley, the UA system does not account for True bloodlines either.


Just some thoughts off the top of my head. :rolleyes:

Thanks for reading&#33;

Joe
I don&#39;t off hand disagree with this concept, but I think that The Falcon was attempting to divorce the blood score from the equation totally.

If blood score is accounted for then a mechanism needs to be included for how to raise (or lower) it. This should, IMO, include a means of tying it into being a good steward as well as the bloodtheft concept. But that serves to lesson the effect and importance of attempting to categorize scions with the UA bloodline concept. IMO this is one of the major reasons that the UA bloodline concept is just inadequate for capturing BR scions, the other being that whether or not it is specifically stated in UA, bloodline makes the character undergo physical transformations to approach the base creature - hence the step acquisition of the physical characteristics of the base creature. The latter is why I made the connection with awn/ersh transformations and not the general scion ones. Not all scions have bloodmarks, not all scions gain ability score increases, etc.

the Falcon
04-09-2004, 05:56 PM
Originally posted by jdpb1+Apr 8 2004, 04:43 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (jdpb1 &#064; Apr 8 2004, 04:43 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Hey Falcon&#33;[/b]Hey Joe&#33; :D


Originally posted by jdpb1@Apr 8 2004, 04:43 AM
I, for one, really like what you&#39;re doing with the UA bloodline thing. I started to work out a conversion just recently. I am far from finished, and now I&#39;m thrilled to come across your version. I think the choice aspect you&#39;ve added is great. Hey, thanks for your positive feedback. I had already become very disinclined to bother to post anything more on the topic and just keep it all to myself—since apparently my ideas were far from appreciated—but you made me change my mind. ^_^


Originally posted by jdpb1@Apr 8 2004, 04:43 AM
I&#39;d love to see your write ups for higher level powers&#33; Your request is my command&#33; Coming up soon... ^_^


Originally posted by jdpb1@Apr 8 2004, 04:43 AM
I&#39;ve been lurking on this board for about three years now. I&#39;ve gotten great use out of the BRCS Playtest doc and Travis Doom&#39;s conversion, but this is the first time I&#39;ve felt compelled to post. The forums seem to be filled with a lot of naysayers and pointless arguments, but guys like you who take the time and effort to post fleshed out ideas are a great asset. Flattery will get you everywhere... ;)
It&#39;s good to know, though, that there&#39;s at least some people who appreciate my work. Thanks. :)


Originally posted by jdpb1@Apr 8 2004, 04:43 AM
The bloodline conversion has been the true sticking point for 3E BR. The versions offered in the afrementioned documents proved unwieldy in my games and have forced my group to abandon BR for a while until I can figure out a fix. With the superb UA book and your work here, I just may have found a solution. Thanks&#33; I must admit I have never paid too much attention to the BRCS Playtest document. After just casually perusing it, I came very quickly to the conclusion that it&#39;s just not what I&#39;m looking for. A lot of the stuff in there basically completely violates the way I think about Birthright. Ah, I guess I&#39;m just as much a stickler as the rest of them. Guilty as charged, your honor. :P


Originally posted by jdpb1@Apr 8 2004, 04:43 AM
Keep up the good work&#33; Thanks, I intend to and I&#39;ll try to share it with people out there as long as there&#39;s anyone who appreciates it. ^_^

<!--QuoteBegin-jdpb1@Apr 8 2004, 04:43 AM
PS-- No system, including the UA version, will be perfect. Let&#39;s face it, the 2E BR Bloodlines were far from perfect. I think it is pointless to argue about the conversion the way many here do. How on earth can we argue for a balanced, consistent, rules compatible bloodline system in 3E and also demand it be a faithful conversion from 2E? The 2E version was an unbalanced, inconsistent, add-on ruleset&#33;[/quote] Hear, hear&#33; My sentiments, exactly. :)

the Falcon
04-09-2004, 07:21 PM
Originally posted by jdpb1+Apr 9 2004, 02:23 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (jdpb1 &#064; Apr 9 2004, 02:23 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Upon character creation a bloodscore is generated via some method. A character with a score < 30 may take a minor bloddline if desired. A scion with blood score >=30 and <60 could choose a minor or intermediate bloodline. A higher Blood score allows the choice of major BL. The normal UA bloodline level requirements apply.
During the game, anytime a scion&#39;s blood score exceeds these thresholds, he may choose to "upgrade" his bloodline one grade. If the scion has exceeded the levels required by the UA bloodline level guidelines, then the PC must take a bloodline level as his next character level, and his upgraded bloodline will NOT take effect until this level-up.
A non-blooded character who becomes blooded follows these same rules.[/b] Sounds like a fine idea to me. Actually, that&#39;s pretty much how I do it in my campaign too, except that minor ranges from 1 to 10, intermediate from 11 to 30, and major from 31 to 60. I haven&#39;t really decided on a definitive system for all the other aspects of blood score, such as the initial generation, investiture, bloodtheft, inheritance, etc. However, for this system we&#39;re discussing here, I don&#39; think it really matters at all what kind of rules you use for blood scores; that&#39;s not what this is about. Besides that, I think blood scores are more something for the realm level of play. I&#39;m quite content with it if they would have hardly any effect at all on the adventure level of play.

<!--QuoteBegin-jdpb1@Apr 9 2004, 02:23 AM
EXAMPLE: A 7th level scion with a minor bloodline and no "bloodline levels" crosses the 30 bloodscore threshold via bloodtheft and chooses to upgrade to intermediate. Since an intermediate bloodline requires a bloodline level no later than sixth character level, the scion is required to take a bloodline level at 8th level. His Intermediate level powers do not manifest or function until this occurs.
Had the scion been 4th level upon reaching a 30 bloodscore, then his Intermediate bloodline would become active immediately.[/quote] Of course, he would still have to take a Bloodline level at 6th (for the intermediate) and 12th (for the minor).

the Falcon
04-09-2004, 07:24 PM
As promised, some more blood abilities. More to follow soon. ^_^

AIR MASTERY
Derivations: Anduiras.
Minimum Character Level: Intermediate 16th, major 8th.
Benefit: Airborne creatures take a –1 penalty on attack and damage rolls against you. This is an extraordinary ability.

CHAMELEON POWER
Derivations: Brenna.
Minimum Character Level: Intermediate 16th, major 8th.
Benefit: As a standard action, you can magically change your coloration and that of your equipment to match your surroundings, granting you a +10 circumstance bonus on Hide checks in those surroundings. You can dismiss this power as a free action. This is a spell-like ability.

EARTH MASTERY
Derivations: Reynir.
Minimum Character Level: Intermediate 16th, major 8th.
Benefit: You gain a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls if both you and your foe are touching the ground. If your opponent is airborne or waterborne, you take a –4 penalty on attack and damage rolls. This is an extraordinary ability.

ENERGY RESISTANCE, MAJOR
Derivations: Anduiras, Basaļa, Masela, Reynir.
Minimum Character Level: Intermediate 16th, major 8th.
Prerequisite Blood Ability: Minor Energy Resistance.
Benefit: You gain resistance 10 against the energy type associated with your derivation.
Anduiras: electricity.
Basaļa: fire.
Masela: acid.
Reynir: cold.

NATURAL SWIMMER
Derivations: Masela.
Minimum Character Level: Intermediate 16th, major 8th.
Benefit: You gain a swim speed of 30 feet.

the Falcon
04-09-2004, 08:29 PM
More... ^_^

FLY
Derivations: Anduiras.
Minimum Character Level: Intermediate 20th, major 10th.
Benefit: Fly 1/day (Sp).

LOCATE OBJECT
Derivations: Azrai, Vorynn.
Minimum Character Level: Intermediate 20th, major 10th.
Benefit: Locate object 1/day (Sp).

PRODUCE FLAME
Derivations: Basaļa.
Minimum Character Level: Intermediate 20th, major 10th.
Benefit: Produce flame 1/day (Sp).

RESISTANCE TO POISON
Derivations: Azrai, Reynir.
Minimum Character Level: Intermediate 20th, major 10th.
Benefit: You gain a +2 bonus on saves against poison.

SPEAK WITH ANIMALS
Derivations: Reynir.
Minimum Character Level: Intermediate 20th, major 10th.
Benefit: Speak with animals 1/day (Sp).

SPIDER CLIMB
Derivations: Brenna.
Minimum Character Level: Intermediate 20th, major 10th.
Benefit: Spider climb 1/day (Sp).

WATER BREATHING
Derivations: Masela.
Minimum Character Level: Intermediate 20th, major 10th.
Benefit: You can breathe underwater indefinitely and can freely use special abilities while submerged. This is an extraordinary ability.

jdpb1
04-09-2004, 10:21 PM
Thanks for your response and the extra material you&#39;ve posted. I have to take some time to go through it all, but here are some thoughts and questions:

1) I would suggest adding Sense Motive to Anduiras, Balance to Masela, and Survival to Reynir.

2) I&#39;m curious to know why you assigned minimum levels to the blood abilities and how these minimum were calculated. My thoughts:
a) Some powers have a ridiculously high minimum. E.g.-- Spider Climb, This power is quite minor yet requires 10th or higher level for a Major bloodline, 20th for an Intermediate, and a minor bloodline can&#39;t even chose it&#33; Spider Climb 1/day is hardly a power worthy of a 20th level character.
B) Shouldn&#39;t powers like Elemental Resistance that have minor and major versions have an "upgrade" ability instead of being separate powers? By this I mean that in the posted list a scion would have to take the minor version then take the major version a few levels later. However, since the major overlaps the minor, he is stuck with a useless blood ability. Perhaps the scion can chose the minor ER, and then at the next level that grants an ability the ability automatically upgrades to major ER and he may choose another ability normally. I know this doesn&#39;t work out perfectly, but it seems better than sticking a scion with a useless ability (especially minor scions who get so few to start with).

What do you think?

Other additions to the Blood Ability list:

Detect Evil (Anduiras)
Darkvision (Azrai)
Cure Light/Moderate/Citical Wounds (Anduiras, Brenna, Reynir)
Daylight (Basaia)
Fear (Azrai)
Wrath (rage) (Anduiras)
Animal Friendship w/ totem animal (All)
Track Feat (Reynir)
Woodland Stride (Reynir)
Poison (Azrai)
Wither Touch (Azrai)
Rebuke Elemental Creature (of appropriate subtype) (Anduiras, Basaia, Masela, Reynir)

Just some thoughts.

Gotta run
Joe

the Falcon
04-10-2004, 07:45 PM
Originally posted by jdpb1+Apr 10 2004, 12:21 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (jdpb1 &#064; Apr 10 2004, 12:21 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>1) I would suggest adding Sense Motive to Anduiras, Balance to Masela, and Survival to Reynir.[/b] Sure, that&#39;d work for me.

Skill Boost: Choose one skill from your derivation&#39;s list. You receive a +2 bonus on checks made with the chosen skill. Each time you gain a skill boost, it applies to a new skill. (You cannot select the same skill twice.)
Anduiras: Diplomacy, Heal, Intimidate, Jump, Knowledge (any one), Sense Motive.
Azrai: Bluff, Diplomacy, Disguise, Intimidate, Knowledge (any one), Listen, Search, Spot.
Basaļa: Diplomacy, Heal, Intimidate, Knowledge (any one), Listen, Sense Motive, Spot.
Brenna: Balance, Diplomacy, Disguise, Hide, Listen, Move Silently, Sense Motive, Spot, Tumble.
Masela: Appraise, Balance, Gather Information, Intimidate, Knowledge (any one), Perform, Swim.
Reynir: Climb, Heal, Knowledge (any one), Listen, Search, Spot, Survival.
Vorynn: Concentration, Disguise, Gather Information, Knowledge (any one), Sense Motive.


Originally posted by jdpb1@Apr 10 2004, 12:21 AM
2) I&#39;m curious to know why you assigned minimum levels to the blood abilities and how these minimum were calculated. I didn&#39;t calculate them. I merely based them on the existing bloodlines in UA.


Originally posted by jdpb1@Apr 10 2004, 12:21 AM
B) Shouldn&#39;t powers like Elemental Resistance that have minor and major versions have an "upgrade" ability instead of being separate powers? By this I mean that in the posted list a scion would have to take the minor version then take the major version a few levels later. However, since the major overlaps the minor, he is stuck with a useless blood ability. Perhaps the scion can chose the minor ER, and then at the next level that grants an ability the ability automatically upgrades to major ER and he may choose another ability normally. I know this doesn&#39;t work out perfectly, but it seems better than sticking a scion with a useless ability (especially minor scions who get so few to start with). I don&#39;t really see the problem, but how about if I refrased it as below?

ENERGY RESISTANCE, MAJOR
Derivations: Anduiras, Basaļa, Masela, Reynir.
Minimum Character Level: Intermediate 16th, major 8th.
Prerequisite Blood Ability: Minor Energy Resistance.
Benefit: The resistance you&#39;ve gained to your derivation&#39;s energy type from your Minor Energy Resistance ability increases to 10.


Originally posted by jdpb1@Apr 10 2004, 12:21 AM
Other additions to the Blood Ability list:
Wrath (rage) (Anduiras)
Woodland Stride (Reynir)
Rebuke Elemental Creature (of appropriate subtype) (Anduiras, Basaia, Masela, Reynir) I&#39;m a little uneasy about giving class abilities as blood abilities. There&#39;s no UA precedent.


Originally posted by jdpb1@Apr 10 2004, 12:21 AM
Track Feat (Reynir) There&#39;s no need to treat this seperately; I already introduced a Bonus Feat blood ability.

<!--QuoteBegin-jdpb1@Apr 10 2004, 12:21 AM
Wither Touch (Azrai)[/quote] How would this work? What it is it based on?

Lord Soth
04-16-2004, 01:24 AM
Originally posted by the Falcon@Mar 25 2004, 05:58 PM
Note: Especially the list of bonus feats per derivation could use some improvements. Suggestions welcome.


BLOOD ABILITY DESCRIPTIONS

ALTER SELF
Derivations: Azrai, Brenna, Vorynn.
Minimum Character Level: Minor 8th, intermediate 4th, major 2nd.
Benefit: Alter self 1/day (Sp).

BONUS FEAT
Derivations: All.
Minimum Character Level: Minor 8th, intermediate 4th, major 2nd.
Benefit: Choose one feat from your derivation&#39;s list. You gain that feat as a bonus feat. You still must meet all the normal prerequisites for the feat in order to be able to take it.
Anduiras: Power Attack, Cleave, Great Cleave, Improved Bull Rush, Improved Overrun, Improved Sunder.
Azrai: Alertness, Great Fortitude, Iron Will, Stealthy.
Basaļa: Far Shot, Improved Precise Shot, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, Manyshot.
Brenna: Dodge, Lightning Reflexes, Mobility, Spring Attack, Stealthy.
Masela: Combat Reflexes, Weapon Finesse.
Reynir: Alertness, Great Fortitude, Iron Will.
Vorynn: Blind-Fight, Improved Initiative, Weapon Finesse.

CHARM PERSON
Derivations: Azrai, Basaļa, Brenna.
Minimum Character Level: Minor 16th, intermediate 8th, major 4th.
Benefit: Charm person 1/day (Sp).

DARKNESS
Derivations: Azrai, Brenna.
Minimum Character Level: Minor 16th, intermediate 8th, major 4th.
Benefit: Darkness 1/day (Sp).

DETECT POISON
Derivations: Azrai, Reynir.
Minimum Character Level: Minor 16th, intermediate 8th, major 4th.
Benefit: Detect poison 1/day (Sp).

DETECT THOUGHTS
Derivations: Basaļa, Brenna, Vorynn.
Minimum Character Level: Minor 16th, intermediate 8th, major 4th.
Benefit: Detect thoughts 1/day (Sp).

DOUBLE HEAL RATE
Derivations: Reynir.
Minimum Character Level: Minor 16th, intermediate 8th, major 4th.
Benefit: You heal naturally at double normal heal rates. This is an extraordinary ability.

ENERGY RESISTANCE, MINOR
Derivations: Anduiras, Basaļa, Masela, Reynir.
Minimum Character Level: Minor 16th, intermediate 8th, major 4th.
Benefit: You gain resistance 5 against the energy type associated with your derivation.
Anduiras: electricity.
Basaļa: fire.
Masela: acid.
Reynir: cold.

ENERGY RESISTANCE, MAJOR
Derivations: Anduiras, Basaļa, Masela, Reynir.
Minimum Character Level: Intermediate 16th, major 8th.
Prerequisite Blood Ability: Minor Energy Resistance.
Benefit: You gain resistance 10 against the energy type associated with your derivation.
Anduiras: electricity.
Basaļa: fire.
Masela: acid.
Reynir: cold.

FOG CLOUD
Derivations: Masela.
Minimum Character Level: Minor 16th, intermediate 8th, major 4th.
Benefit: Fog cloud 1/day (Sp).

GUST OF WIND
Derivations: Anduiras.
Minimum Character Level: Minor 16th, intermediate 8th, major 4th.
Benefit: Gust of wind 1/day (Sp).

IMPROVED NATURAL ARMOR
Derivations: All.
Minimum Character Level: Minor 16th, intermediate 8th, major 4th.
Benefit: You gain a +1 bonus to your natural armor.
Special: You can take this blood ability more than once. Each time you take it, its effects stack.

INVISIBILITY
Derivations: Azrai, Brenna.
Minimum Character Level: Minor 16th, intermediate 8th, major 4th.
Benefit: Invisibility 1/day (Sp).

LEVITATE
Derivations: Anduiras, Vorynn.
Minimum Character Level: Minor 16th, intermediate 8th, major 4th.
Benefit: Levitate 1/day (Sp).

LOW-LIGHT VISION
Derivations: Azrai, Brenna.
Minimum Character Level: Minor 16th, intermediate 8th, major 4th.
Benefit: You gain low-light vision.

MELD INTO STONE
Derivations: Reynir.
Minimum Character Level: Minor 16th, intermediate 8th, major 4th.
Benefit: Meld into stone 1/day (Sp).

OBSCURING MIST
Derivations: Masela.
Minimum Character Level: Intermediate 12th, major 6th.
Benefit: Obscuring mist 1/day (Sp).

PYROTECHNICS
Derivations: Basaļa.
Minimum Character Level: Minor 16th, intermediate 8th, major 4th.
Benefit: Pyrotechnics 1/day (Sp).

SCENT
Derivations: Reynir.
Minimum Character Level: Minor 16th, intermediate 8th, major 4th.
Benefit: Scent (Ex).

SHATTER
Derivations: Vorynn.
Minimum Character Level: Minor 16th, intermediate 8th, major 4th.
Benefit: Shatter 1/day (Sp).

SPELL RESISTANCE
Derivations: Vorynn.
Minimum Character Level: Minor 16th, intermediate 8th, major 4th.
Benefit: You gain spell resistance equal to 2 plus your number of Hit Dice.

STONE SHAPE
Derivations: Reynir.
Minimum Character Level: Intermediate 12th, major 6th.
Benefit: Stone shape 1/day (Sp).


EDIT: Oh, mind you, this is only a partial list; it includes only the lower level blood abilities. I haven&#39;t had the time to type out the higher level blood abilities yet.
Thanks for putting the work into this&#33; Now I can mooch off of you. Nice to see I&#39;m not the only one who had this thought. It&#39;s really quite simple.

Bloodlines grant the following:
Skill Boost
Special Ability
Ability Boost
Affinity Bonus


Just come up with a number of Skills that would make sense for a Scion of, say, Anduiras, and allow the PC with the Bloodline of Anduiras to pick whichever skill he likes from that list when he reaches 1st, 7th, 13th, and 19th levels. Str, Wis, and Cha are skills favored by Anduiras. So when you get an Ability Boost, the player gets to increase one of those. As for Special Abilities, just allow the player to take any Anduiras Bloodline Feat of his choice. If it requires a prerequisite, then he uses that slot to take the Prerequisite, and takes the Bloodline Feat which he originally wanted, later.

It&#39;s all really quite simple. The only problem I see is how to handle Bloodtheft and so on.


I actually think that this makes the original proposal even worse.

What you have essentially done is create a &#39;generic&#39; scion class, with no hit die/BAB/Saving throw bonuses/Skill points, if you step back and look at it from a distance. This is drastically different than the UA bloodlines. Just an opinion.

No, it&#39;s not. The UA Bloodlines are just EXAMPLES of what can be done. The book itself states that list is by no means a comprehensive one, and it encourages you to create your own, including more specialized versions of the ones there, and so on. What the Falcon is doing, here, is doing that, without wasting his time by making up every possible permutation of what an Anduiras Bloodline could potentially look like.

ecliptic
04-18-2004, 08:00 AM
Thanks Falcon, I had plans to do something similar but I got bus after UA came out.

I think its time to get off the blood score and find a different way to accomplish realm control.

Although I do question the balance. A bonus feat isn&#39;t worth some of the powers that are available. I think bonus feat should just replace some of the blood abilities gained. Also some are way too powerful. Like Chameleon? I would say +5 Hide, and doesn&#39;t stack with Cloak of Elvenkind.

Ariadne
04-18-2004, 10:14 AM
Originally posted by ecliptic@Apr 18 2004, 09:00 AM
Thanks Falcon, I had plans to do something similar but I got bus after UA came out.

I think its time to get off the blood score and find a different way to accomplish realm control.

Although I do question the balance. A bonus feat isn&#39;t worth some of the powers that are available. I think bonus feat should just replace some of the blood abilities gained. Also some are way too powerful. Like Chameleon? I would say +5 Hide, and doesn&#39;t stack with Cloak of Elvenkind.
What&#39;s with the normal "Camouflage" spell? It provides a +10 to hide to as well as any normal hide armor. Even the Yuan-ti power of the same name provides +10 and wild shaping into a plant to, so why underpowering.

So IMO a balance question is simply answered: IMO not at all overpowered (sometimes some guys overdo it a bit with balance ;) )...

the Falcon
05-01-2004, 07:09 PM
Originally posted by Lord Soth@Apr 16 2004, 03:24 AM
Thanks for putting the work into this&#33; Now I can mooch off of you. Nice to see I&#39;m not the only one who had this thought. It&#39;s really quite simple.

It&#39;s all really quite simple. The only problem I see is how to handle Bloodtheft and so on.
I actually think that this makes the original proposal even worse.
What you have essentially done is create a &#39;generic&#39; scion class, with no hit die/BAB/Saving throw bonuses/Skill points, if you step back and look at it from a distance. This is drastically different than the UA bloodlines. Just an opinion.No, it&#39;s not. The UA Bloodlines are just EXAMPLES of what can be done. The book itself states that list is by no means a comprehensive one, and it encourages you to create your own, including more specialized versions of the ones there, and so on. What the Falcon is doing, here, is doing that, without wasting his time by making up every possible permutation of what an Anduiras Bloodline could potentially look like.
I&#39;m glad there&#39;s at least someone who understands what I&#39;m doing. ^_^
Good to see you like it. :)

the Falcon
06-26-2004, 02:02 PM
DAMAGE REDUCTION 1/COLD IRON
Derivations: All.
Minimum Character Level: Major 14th.
Benefit: You gain damage reduction 1/cold iron.

DAMAGE REDUCTION 1/SILVER
Derivations: All.
Minimum Character Level: Major 14th.
Benefit: You gain damage reduction 1/silver.

CALL LIGHTNING
Derivations: Anduiras.
Minimum Character Level: Major 14th.
Benefit: Call lightning 1/day (Sp).

CREATE FOOD AND WATER
Derivations: Masela.
Minimum Character Level: Major 14th.
Benefit: Create food and water 1/day (Sp).

DAYLIGHT
Derivations: Basaļa.
Minimum Character Level: Major 14th.
Benefit: Daylight 1/day (Sp).

DEEPER DARKNESS
Derivations: Azrai, Brenna.
Minimum Character Level: Major 14th.
Benefit: Deeper darkness 1/day (Sp).

SCORCHING RAY
Derivations: Basaļa.
Minimum Character Level: Major 14th.
Benefit: Scorching ray 1/day (Sp).

the Falcon
07-18-2004, 12:43 PM
Another one:

OVERSIZED WEAPON
Derivations: Anduiras.
Minimum Character Level: Major 12th.
Benefit: You can use weapons designed for a creature one size larger than you without penalty. However, your space and reach remain those of a creature of your actual size. The benefits of this blood ability stack with the effects of powers, abilities, and spells that change your size category.

tcharazazel
07-18-2004, 01:03 PM
heheh, talk about anime time. Makes sense that the scions space and reach stay teh same as they dont change size category. So, the only benefit is the extra damge from the weapon size increase then? or...

As the common large greatsword is about 5-6&#39; long, which is a square, wouldn&#39;t a huge greatsword be at least 10&#39;? So would they effectively have a reach weapon at that point, even though a greatsword isnt normally considered a reach weapon?

If so, then it maybe a good idea to just clarify those 2 things.

the Falcon
07-18-2004, 04:40 PM
Originally posted by tcharazazel+Jul 18 2004, 03:03 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (tcharazazel &#064; Jul 18 2004, 03:03 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>heheh, talk about anime time.[/b]Don&#39;t limit yourself to Medium creatures wielding Large greatswords two-handedly—try a Medium creature doing two-weapon fighting wielding two Medium greatswords. ^_^


Originally posted by tcharazazel@Jul 18 2004, 03:03 PM
As the common large greatsword is about 5-6&#39; long, which is a square, wouldn&#39;t a huge greatsword be at least 10&#39;?I think you mean a Medium greatsword, that is, a greatsword made for Medium-sized creature, which would indeed be about 5 or 6 ft. long, I suppose. In D&D 3.5, a greatsword is a two-handed weapon, no matter what its actual size is. If it&#39;s made for a Medium-size creature, it&#39;s a Medium two-handed weapon.


Originally posted by tcharazazel@Jul 18 2004, 03:03 PM
So would they effectively have a reach weapon at that point, even though a greatsword isnt normally considered a reach weapon?Under the D&D v3.5 rules, a greatsword never has reach, no matter what size it is. Of course, under those rules normally one cannot wield a two-handed weapon that is greater than ones own size at all, so I can see where you&#39;re coming from. Anyhow, I don&#39;t think I need to address this issue seperately, since I feel it&#39;s already covered by the rules as it is. Feel free to house-rule, of course. :)

<!--QuoteBegin-tcharazazel@Jul 18 2004, 03:03 PM
So, the only benefit is the extra damge from the weapon size increase then? or...[/quote]So, in short, yes, the only benefit is the extra damage.

One rationale that could explain why a Medium creature doesn&#39;t gain any reach benefits while wielding a Large two-handed weapon that doesn&#39;t normally have reach is that the Medium creature simply lacks the Large arms and hands that are normally required to wield a Large two-handed weapon. Remember, a Large creature normally already has a reach of 2 squares. Wielding a Large two-handed weapon doesn&#39;t increase this, so why should it for a Medium creature? Also, because the Medium creature lacks the aforementioned Large arms and hands, he problably has to shift his grip to wield the weapon effectively, thus also explaining for the lack of increased reach.

tcharazazel
07-19-2004, 08:34 AM
Actually, when i say large great swords, I was just looking at the 3e PBH, as it was based on the size of the greatsword as opposed to the size of the wielder. well 3e just better showed you how large the weapon really is, 5-6&#39; for a greatsword vs about 10&#39; for the next size up.



QUOTE (tcharazazel @ Jul 18 2004, 03:03 PM)
So would they effectively have a reach weapon at that point, even though a greatsword isnt normally considered a reach weapon?

Under the D&D v3.5 rules, a greatsword never has reach, no matter what size it is. Of course, under those rules normally one cannot wield a two-handed weapon that is greater than ones own size at all, so I can see where you&#39;re coming from. Anyhow, I don&#39;t think I need to address this issue seperately, since I feel it&#39;s already covered by the rules as it is. Feel free to house-rule, of course.

Well, Thats not really an answer as you are changing the normal rules, and thus to make it work you will need to clairy that a 10&#39; greatsword cannot hit a creture 10&#39; (or two 5&#39; squares) away from the medium sized character... Lets just look at that for a second... It makes no sense... none. So, it&#39;s ok to say that the scion&#39;s natural reach doesnt change normally. However, if the character is able to effectively wield a weapon, like the large greatsword, it Will effectively increase their natural reach because of the weapon, as when they swing a 10&#39; greatesword they can hit cretures that are 6-10&#39; away.



One rationale that could explain why a Medium creature doesn&#39;t gain any reach benefits while wielding a Large two-handed weapon that doesn&#39;t normally have reach is that the Medium creature simply lacks the Large arms and hands that are normally required to wield a Large two-handed weapon. Remember, a Large creature normally already has a reach of 2 squares. Wielding a Large two-handed weapon doesn&#39;t increase this, so why should it for a Medium creature? Also, because the Medium creature lacks the aforementioned Large arms and hands, he problably has to shift his grip to wield the weapon effectively, thus also explaining for the lack of increased reach.

If you say they can only hit creatures that are 5&#39; away from them then, they obviously cannot wield the large greatsword effectively... which is the whole point of the blood ability. To be able to effectively wield a weapon larger than they could normally wield. Really, if they can effectively wield the larger weapon, then what are the reasons for it? Do they change physically, or does their blood just make the weapon seem easier to wield than it really is...

If you explained better the reasons for their ability to use the larger weapons in the ability, would make it easier to understand why you dont need to alter the rules.

the Falcon
07-22-2004, 09:17 AM
Well, tcharazazel, I hereby invite you to do a rewrite yourself. Show me how it&#39;s done.
Talk is cheap, put your money where your mouth is, actions speak louder than words, let your actions speak for themselves, etc.—that kinda thing. ^_^

tcharazazel
07-23-2004, 06:28 PM
Heheh, if I had been able to come up with a version of the blood ability that would make sense logically and mechanically I would have just posted those minor changes in the beginning. Unfortunately, I was just stumped trying to figure out how to just get the results that you wanted, higher damage for weapons, without the anoying problem of some weapons not effectively becoming reach weapons or changing the natural reach of the character.

So, even though I love the idea, I have to say that it should be scrapped.


I even thought about using the 3e Enlarge spell that increased the character/object by up to 50% to explain why the medium sized character would be able to effectively wield the large weapon. As they would become bigger, however, not an actual size category bigger, so they would remain a medium sized character. However, even then that wouldnt explain why they couldn&#39;t use a 10&#39; greatsword to hit creatures 10&#39; away.


Now, you could make a blood ability that would allow them to wield the 2 medium greatswords in each hand and other types of 2 handed weapons, baring 2 bladed weapons of course. However, that isnt really what you were going for it seems.

RaspK_FOG
07-23-2004, 11:00 PM
First of all, I think there still is some misunderstanding, unless I missed an explanation: in 3e, weapons were listed according to their owner&#39;s size, calling one-handed weapons by their owner&#39;s size and going up or down from that point on, while in 3.5e weapons are listed as items, making a greatsword a Medium object instead of a Large one, since it has the average size of a very skinny human ( :P ).

If you want to picture the whole idea better, I think that such a blood ability really does too much. I suppose that it has its basis ("The Falcon and the Wolf" has a like image of the Mhor wielding a huge, 4-feet-long mace&#33;), but it still is... I don&#39;t know.

You could keep it as it is, but if I am not mistaken, that is an Epic feat as well. Not only that, such a blood ability might well be pretty useless at times. On the other hand, consider a blood ability that allows its "owner" to use all weapons as if they were one size category larger. I know, it is overpowered, but I just think it is a bit of an overkill to see people wielding Large greatswords&#33;

As for the Enlarge spell, that was one of the good things in 3.5e: Enlarge now grows you and your equipment by one size category; whatever leaves your possession reverts to its original size, so missile and melee weapons deal enlarged damage, while thrown weapons deal standard damage - of course, the Strength increase caused by the spell still affects the damage. ;)

the Falcon
07-24-2004, 11:19 AM
Whoah, there&#39;s something I hadn&#39;t thought of yet: with this blood ability a Small or Medium creature could wield a Medium or Large bow, respectively. Freaky. <_<

Anyways, for my sources, check out the Titan&#39;s oversize weapon over here (http://www.wizards.com/d20/files/v35/MonstersT-Z.rtf) and the Goliath&#39;s powerful build over here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20040711b&page=5).
And for those of your who own a copy of Unearthed Arcana, check out "use oversized weapon (Ex)" of the Titan bloodline on pages 29–30.

tcharazazel
07-24-2004, 12:56 PM
Heh, the goliath is between a medium and large creature it seems.

They don&#39;t really give any explaination for why a large weapon thats 10&#39; cant hit a creature thats 10&#39; away though... and it is still in the works apparently. When they can figure out a reasonable explaination for the obvious fact they are effectively making them medium sized large creatures, though it seems like they just tossed logic out the door with that rule...

As for the Titan, well I&#39;m not really sure how big the warhammer really is. It very well could be 15&#39; long and just weighted for a gargantuan creature, as there are gargantuan creatures with only a 15&#39; reach, just not sure really.

However, I still believe the weapon size and the characters natural reach are related to each other. If they are starting to just go with the amime theme then they are really scrapping the logic they had in their system.

Wait i think i found their basis for it.

Here: in the Savage Species, page 42, they describe the alteration of weapon sizes and weight. Ok, this is the reason apparently for their scrapping logic. They base the weapon not on its actual size, rather on its weight. So a large greatsword would weight 50% more than a medium greatsword, so it increases in weight from 8lb to 12lb. And that is where the extra damage comes from. As for range weapons it says that their range increases by 25% per size increase, and for reach weapons its reach goes up by 5&#39; per size increase.

So they just ignore the actual length of the weapon, heheh, so in theory you could have a huge greatsword that weights 18lb and is only 5&#39; long, and thus a medium creature could wield it, at a penalty of course. Heheh, wow is that broken or what? A huge creature&#39;s height can vary from about 18&#39; for the greater stone golem to 40&#39; for the elder elemental... so even at the low end, a 5&#39; greatsword would less than 1/3 the size of the golem. Hmm... Somehow that is not what a greatsword is supposed to be, it should be roughly about the hight of its wielder. So 15&#39; long for the golem would make sense.

Honestly this is a serious flaw in their system, that they are obviously just glossing over and tossing the logic out, for the anime crowd. Very sad. If the only factor in damage is weight then I would have said cool with the blood ablility and with their ideas, however, weight isnt the only factor. The length is another important factor, especially for swords as the best part for the slashing sword to hit is in the last 1/4 of the blade near the tip. If you were to only use the first 1/2 of the blade near the hilt then you would never be able to as effectively damage the opponent. Honestly, I&#39;m a little surprised that they don&#39;t know how to effectively wield these weapons, though it really shows when they base it solely on weight.

irdeggman
07-24-2004, 01:57 PM
Originally posted by tcharazazel@Jul 24 2004, 07:56 AM
They don&#39;t really give any explaination for why a large weapon thats 10&#39; cant hit a creature thats 10&#39; away though... and it is still in the works apparently. When they can figure out a reasonable explaination for the obvious fact they are effectively making them medium sized large creatures, though it seems like they just tossed logic out the door with that rule...

That is because reach isn&#39;t solely based on size. It is also a function of how a weapon is wielded. For instance a sword is &#39;swung&#39; and not used as a stabbing weapon (like spears, lances, etc.). The way it is used reduces its effective length for &#39;reach&#39; effects. If you notice almost all reach weapons are those that have a one dimensional aspect to their use (i.e., they stick or poke things in front of them).

Creatures having a reach have that reach with any weapon they use. Their reach is based on their size or other special functions (like long arms or tentacles).

The two, while on the surface seem related, aren&#39;t.

tcharazazel
07-24-2004, 02:23 PM
That is because reach isn&#39;t solely based on size. It is also a function of how a weapon is wielded. For instance a sword is &#39;swung&#39; and not used as a stabbing weapon (like spears, lances, etc.). The way it is used reduces its effective length for &#39;reach&#39; effects. If you notice almost all reach weapons are those that have a one dimensional aspect to their use (i.e., they stick or poke things in front of them).

Creatures having a reach have that reach with any weapon they use. Their reach is based on their size or other special functions (like long arms or tentacles).

The two, while on the surface seem related, aren&#39;t.

First of all you need to reread my last paragraph apparently.

Heheh, ok so Reach is based on size and how the weapon is wielded. However they are not related, interesting... So, a 20&#39; greatsword can be made for a medium creature, and thus only be able to hit creatures 5&#39; away effectively... that makes sense now doesnt it?&#33;&#33;?&#33;? Of course not, and that is the whole point. For reach weapons its much easier as their reach just increases by 5&#39; per size category, however, for the 2hd weapons, like the greatsword, even though their length would start making them reach weapons.

Apparently you are not familiar with wielding such weaons. Cause if you were, you would know that that it is the Combination of the person&#39;s natural reach and the length of the weapon that will equal how far away from they can hit. They are realated, and D&D team had been stiking to the logic behind them until recently apparently, most likely because of the anime theme they somehow picked up.

You can try to stick up for their changes to the core rules however, then you would just be perpetuating the lack of logic and in fact helping it to spread. If anything we should be appalled at their total disregard for logic as they have been doing a rather good job at making the system more mathematical and logical. When it follows this logic then it is much easier for all to follow as you know what to expect and that is the whole pont of the system, offering a solid base for all to create their own adventures from.

irdeggman
07-24-2004, 03:45 PM
Originally posted by tcharazazel@Jul 24 2004, 09:23 AM

Apparently you are not familiar with wielding such weaons. Cause if you were, you would know that that it is the Combination of the person&#39;s natural reach and the length of the weapon that will equal how far away from they can hit. They are realated, and D&D team had been stiking to the logic behind them until recently apparently, most likely because of the anime theme they somehow picked up.

True I don&#39;t use them, but several people in my gaming group are &#39;experts&#39; and have been doing live action sword using for many years (greater than 10) and based on their information I still think I am correct in my statements.

By the way they also forge their own weapons and armor so they are quite knowledgeable.

Rules are made for simplification and not the specific details for all cases.

tcharazazel
07-24-2004, 04:44 PM
Cool, at least you got good 2nd hand info, however, your statements were very general and do not prove that reach is not the combination of a character&#39;s size and the weapon used. Which they are of course, go ask your friends they will tell you the same thing. I&#39;m not sure what a "live action" sword is, however, I have been practicing with various weapons, like the knife and lead pipe since I was in grade school a long time ago, over 15 years. I picked up the katana and bo about 10 years ago, from martial arts. If you want to see the physics of it, go ask one of your friends to make a "real action" large greatsword, roughly 10&#39; long, and see about wielding it effectively. Heheh, if they can only effectively hit people who are about 5&#39; from them and not about 10&#39; from them I&#39;ll be amazed. An easy way to test it out is to just get a 10&#39; pole, pretend its a greatsword, and see if you can only effectively slash at a person who is 5&#39; away and then see if you can not effectively slash at a person who is 10&#39; away.

Still you&#39;re responses do not rebutt my arguments for just scapping the blood ability, as the whole idea is illogical. If there was a

geeman
07-24-2004, 07:20 PM
When it comes to the size of weapons versus how their are employed {must...

ignore... Freudian... subtext...} as a determinate of their reach, I think

it needs to get noted that at a certain point a very long greatsword

{sublimate... phallic... innuendo} crosses over into the type of piercing

{thrusting, penetrating} weapon that is normally considered a pole

arm. It`s hard to picture someone wielding 10` long greatsword in a way

that doesn`t extend out to the limits of that 10` unless they are somehow

gripping it by the blade. Even employing it as a slashing weapon and

holding it by that pommel would mean it would extend out further than would

a typically sized (5` or so) greatsword. Assuming a medium sized character

could swing it that way in the first place, that is. Likewise, its

difficult to imagine someone wielding such a weapon to strike a person in

an adjacent square because they`d have to either strike with less force

using an unwieldy part of the blade or somehow reverse the focal point of

their swing/thrust to a point behind their center of gravity--which is an

unwieldy thing to do. A 10` long greatsword would, essentially, be used by

someone who intended to reach as far as someone with a reach weapon. {Pole

arm envy?}



Gary

tcharazazel
07-24-2004, 07:56 PM
Exactly Gary, while it can still to damage within 5&#39; it will be reduced as it is in the first 1/2 of the blade, and there is not enough power that can be used there to do full damage. Heheh, if the scion grew to be 50% bigger, like the Goliath, he would have a slightly easier time at hitting creatures within 5&#39; with the last 1/2 of the blade and maybe even the last 1/4 as he would be taller than the average medium character and thus be able to swing down at a better angle. Could give that a try with the 10&#39; pole when you are standin on a step ladder.

Thus, the whole idea of the weapon doing more damage would be inaccurate as unless the character grew somehow, he wouldnt be able to effectively wield the weapon.


Now I did think of one solution to this problem though recently. Basically, the medium sized scion is able to wield large 1 handed weapons, ie large long swords or battle axes along with reach weapons, ie long spears, and range weapons, ie long bows. However, 2 handed weapons are too cumbersome to wield effectively for the medium sized scion. You could also put in that the scion could then wield 2handed medium weapons, like the greatsword, in one hand also.

There is one definate requirement to be able to do this that I would recomend and that is having an above average Str of at least 13 maybe even 15.

the Falcon
07-24-2004, 09:41 PM
How about this?

POWERFUL GRIP
Prerequisite: Str 17+.
Derivations: Anduiras.
Minimum Character Level: Major 12th.
Benefit: You can wield one-handed or two-handed weapons made for your size as if they were light or one-handed weapons, respectively. You can also use light or one-handed weapons designed for a creature one size larger than you without penalty. However, your space and reach remain those of a creature of your actual size. The benefits of this blood ability stack with the effects of powers, abilities, and spells that change your size category.

tcharazazel
07-24-2004, 09:51 PM
Now that makes sensw. I would include the reach weapons and range weapons just to be thorough. Either they are nor included in the blood ability or they are.

the Falcon
07-24-2004, 10:39 PM
Originally posted by tcharazazel@Jul 24 2004, 11:51 PM
Now that makes sensw. I would include the reach weapons and range weapons just to be thorough. Either they are nor included in the blood ability or they are.
I didn&#39;t include ranged weapons, since I didn&#39;t think that would make any sense.
I didn&#39;t mention any reach weapons, since they are not a category onto themselves in v3.5 anyways; allof them are two-handed weapons (except for the whip, which is an exotic one-handed weapon), so I should have my bases covered already.

tcharazazel
07-24-2004, 11:03 PM
K. yeah I know almost all reach weapons are 2hd and that The large range weapons would be a little funky as they would be rather big for em to use efectively also. I just wanted to make sure that all the bases were covered, heheh.

kgauck
10-11-2006, 10:30 PM
Hey Falcon, are you still using UA bloodlines? How's it working out? Anyone else put them to the test on the game table?

Last time around I used an effective level modifier, but included +3 vitality per blood catagory (recall how 2e had a blanket 10 hp bonus) and a skill point bonus in a desinated skill, &c.

These days I am tempted by the UA bloodline mechanism. Its a standard variant, and I think that much of what I was building into my EL system to account for the missing class levels is accounted for in the UA bloodlines.

My own Andurias would have the following Great Bloodline distribution (using the BR terminology of Minor, Major, and Great rather than Intermediate and Major in UA).

Level Great
1st +2 on Knowledge (Law) checks
2nd Major Blood Ability
3rd Wisdom +1
4th Major Blood Ability
5th Minor Eagle Affinity
6th 12 SR vs charms & enchantments
7th +2 on Sense Motive
8th Upgrade Blood Ability
9th Charisma +1
10th Minor Blood Ability
11th Major Eagle Affinity
12th 18 SR vs charms & enchantments
13th +2 on Diplomacy
14th Upgrade Blood Ability
15th Constitution +1
16th Major Blood Ability
17th Great Eagle Affinity
18th 24 SR vs charms & enchantments
19th +2 on Concentration
20th Upgrade Blood Ability

In the Major bloodline, the progression of blood abilities is Major, Minor, Minor, Major with that +1 Will save bonus in the middle. A Minor bloodline selects two minor blood abilities.

I am basically universalizing Animal Affinity, Hightened Ability, and Resistance for all scions, since Ability Boost and Affinity are part of AU bloodlines. Resistance helps to fill out the special abilities, since there are 10 of these. I feel this is a strong flavor benefit without making all scions identical. There is still quite a lot to be selective about. Major and Great bloodlines pick four blood abilities, and minor and tainted bloodlines pick two.

Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com

celtibear
11-02-2006, 01:13 PM
I've considered using the UA-style bloodline system for the next generation of my game; I actually like the structure of the system, and wish I'd had the UA when I'd started my campaign. My players realize that I'm running my current campaign up to 20th (I've got a ways to go; they're mostly at 7th now) and then running a campaign for their children which will deal with some of the snowballing effects of their current characters' actions.

The main difference I have with the UA rules is the Bloodline class levels. I'm making my players give up feat slots for blood abilities, with level requirements and/or bloodtheft as requirements to take power-increasing feats. I don't use bloodscore at all; I find it clunky as a graft onto the rest of the system.