The Spider's Stats, Assistance needed to help with

[Raesene Andu]

I'm working on finishing off the first release of the Atlas of Cerilia at the moment, and as part of that I'm working on the stats for The Spider. Below is what I've come up with so far, and I'm wondering if anyone out there far more experienced at doing 3E conversions of creatures wants to help fill in the blanks (primarily the feats and skills) and check my work to date... ? Any assistance would be most welcome.

Tal-Qazar (The Spider)

Level 13 Awnsheghlien Fighter
Hit Dice: 13d10+26 (91 hp).
Initiative: +7 (+3 Dex, +4 Improved Initiative).
Speed: 30 ft. (6 squares), climb 20ft., jump 30ft.
AC: 22 (-1 Size, +3 Dex, +10 natural).
Attacks: 2 Claws +17/+10/+5 melee (1d10+4), Bite +17/+10/+5 melee (1d6+4 plus poison).
Face/Reach: 10 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: Jump, poisonous bite, web, spittle.
Special Qualities: Darkvision 60ft., regeneration, tremorsense 60ft.
Saves: Fort +12, Ref +7, Will +3.
Abilities: Str 19, Dex 17, Con 14, Int 15, Wis 8, Cha 7.
Skills: ??
Feats: Alertness, Improved Initiative, Multiattack, ??
Bloodline: True (Azrai) 95.
Blood Abilities: Animal Affinity – spiders (Great), Bloodform (Great), Invulnerability (Great), Long Life (Great), Major Regeneration and Regeneration (Great).

Climate/Terrain: The Spiderfell.
Organization: Solitary or with goblin bodyguard (12–36).
Challenge Rating: 14.
Treasure: See Below.
Alignment: Chaotic evil.


If anyone is interested I also have one more character description (The High Mage) that I'd like to run past everyone first.

[geeman]

At 11:46 AM 3/4/2004 +0100, Raesene Andu wrote:



>Level 13 Awnsheghlien FighterHit Dice: 13d10+26 (91 hp).



I`ve always found it strange that the Spider isn`t a higher level character

after 1,500 years.... Personally, I think he should have those 13 fighter

levels and another 10-15 levels of an awnshegh class, but c`est la vie.



>AC: 22 (-1 Size, +3 Dex, +10 natural).



How`d you came up with +10 for natural armor? Matching it up with the AC

of the original character description (2e AC: -2 = 3e AC: 22?)



>Special Attacks: Jump, poisonous bite, web, spittle.



Does the DC/damage of poison equate to a large spider? Same for

Web? What`s the range of spittle?



>Abilities: Str 19, Dex 17, Con 14, Int 15, Wis 8, Cha 7.



The Spider is described as Intelligence: Very (11) in BE and his

cardsheet. To keep up the spider motif he should probably have a higher

dex than strength (at least 3.5 spiders do.) Personally, I don`t think his

charisma should be below 8 and maybe shouldn`t be low at all. He`s ugly,

but apparently pretty entertaining (he knows a lot of riddles.) I`d not

want to have tea with him or anything, but that doesn`t mean he`s

uncharismatic. I kind of get the feeling he`s got a lot of goblin

followers which would imply some level of charisma.



>Skills: ??F



Climb, hide, jump, listen, move silently and/or spot seem apt. Spiders in

the MM have racial bonuses to jump, spot, hide and move silently checks,

which you might want to consider. Just by having a climb movement rate he

gets the +8 to climb checks (and we might assume the same for jumping.) If

he`s got a 15 intelligence that makes for 64 skill points and a max rank of

16. If his intelligence is 11, however, that`s down to 32 skill

points. For the sake of evenness, however, you might just evenly

distribute those skill points among those six skills, but if you want to be

a stickler for fighter`s class skills you might just want to go with climb

and jump and rely on the character`s dex and (possible) racial bonuses for

hide and move silently.



>Feats: Alertness, Improved Initiative, Multiattack, ??



He`s got seven bonus feats as a 13th level fighter and one more feat as a

13th level character. I`d suggest a few that might make sense: Dodge,

Spring Attack, Improved Grapple, Weapon Focus and Weapons Specialization

and/or the greater versions of those feats for either his bite or his

claws. (His bite would probably be more dramatic even if claws probably

makes a bit more sense game mechanically.)



For some reason I feel like he should have Track. Just me

maybe. Toughness or Endurance might make sense (especially Endurance if he

were to later take Diehard.) To convey his goblin following he might have

the Leadership feat. But then again I think most BR characters should have

the Leadership feat....



You should probably also mention that he`s large in the descriptor of the

character.



>If anyone is interested I also have one more character description (The

>High Mage) that I'd like to run past everyone first.



I`m interested.



Gary

[bulletmagnet]

Nice work,although im not sure if your giving him the advantage of spider move which should probably be faster than 30ft. also the jump which i think should be doubled. other than that he looks great..like tears from my hand.

[Osprey]

No Rogue levels for the Spider? I had always thought he had a few, in part developed as he developed his spiderish abilities. How, after all, has he survived in the heart of Anuire for 2000 years? Invulnerability is #1 reason, of course, but wouldn't he also be a hardcore survivalist, hard to find, lots of burrows, etc.? Ranger would work very well for him too, at least at low levels...something with sneaking just seems too appropriate to ignore.

Also, shouldn't he, by our newest version of CH 2 of the BRCS, be like a level 2 or 3 Scion of Azrai? Heh, there at least some basic stealth skills could be added in.

[Ariadne]

Originally posted by Raesene Andu@Mar 4 2004, 11:46 AM
Tal-Qazar (The Spider)

Level 13 Awnsheghlien Fighter
Only? I would make him nearly epic level. He isn't as mighty as the Gorgon, but he had about 2000 years too, to get some levels...


Feat idea: Improved Natural Attack (Bite and/ or claw)

[Mark_Aurel]

I worked out some 3e stats for the Spider long ago, same for a lot of the other awnsheghlien, but I've been waiting for the blood abilities section to be finalized before finishing that up. I'll see if I can dig it up later and update it a bit for 3.5e.

[harvs2]

I always thinks of the Spider as a class combination of this...

Bar 4/Fighter 12/Rogue 2

Fighter and Rogue show his beginning in that he is rather ruthless and was very skilled at the martial arts, and given that he was a general at Desimarr (and I imagine he was rather cunning to get that position) he required a great number of skills in perhaps some of the more shadier aspects.

Barbarian represents what he has become now. He has somewhat digressed. His blood makes him more prone to outbursts, and makes more passionate.

As to special abilities...I would make him huge.

Str 20-25: Spiders are strong and goblins of Cerilia have a predomination with strength.

Dex 20-24: His spider form is rather lithe and quick. He is agile (the ability to move quickly and gracefully along webs).

Con 14-22: I really don't have much justification for this. It just seems as if he was at least a moderate Con and probably more likely is at the fringes of normalacy for humans (18).

Int 12-18. At one time he was a capable general, and must have some degree of intelligence. I would think that he learns easily and adapts easily to new situations.

Wis 6-10. Let's face it, he probably had great intution and preception at one time, but now...it is replaced with the beackonings of his deriviation...he is rather unstable.

Cha 16-20: I realize that this is a change, but Cha represents more than physical appearance, but also force of personality, the ability to lead, and persuade etc. I imagine that the Spider is rather good at this, or at one time was very good at this.


I think that his movement is rather good, it would be jumped slightly higher with barbarain levels, but I imagine his to be rather quick anyways.

I also think that his type should be changes to that perhaps of a Monstrous Humanoid.

Looking at the various subtypes and such, I think that some of the qualities from Vermin are fitting. I might say that he has a Unfamiliar Mind granting him a SR versus Mind-affecting spells and spell-like effects, or perhaps immunity...

I will think a little more on it.

[Green Knight]

I think that before starting to make stats for vaarious NPCs, some ground rules should be laid down, otherwise things might end up a bit inconsistent.



For instance, are major anwsheghlien going to be of Epic levels, say CR 30+ for the Gorgon or are they going to be of more moderate power?



This is also important for other NPC and ultimately PCs as well. If Cerilia is primarily a world for low-level adventurers (as it IS depicted as in 2E), then the NPC need not have such inflated power levels. If the BRCS intends for PC to be more in line with 3E "standard", then change is in order.



I`d suggest sticking with the low-level image 8perhaps up average levels just a little) and instead make a sidebar or two on scaling up NPCs, perhaps with samles of an "Epic Gorgon" and and "Epic Spider"



Cheers

Bjørn



Cheers

Bjørn



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[Ariadne]

Originally posted by Raesene Andu
Level 13 Awnsheghlien Fighter
Hit Dice: 13d10+26 (91 hp).
Initiative: +7 (+3 Dex, +4 Improved Initiative).
Speed: 30 ft. (6 squares), climb 20ft., jump 30ft.
AC: 22 (-1 Size, +3 Dex, +10 natural).
Attacks: 2 Claws +17/+10/+5 melee (1d10+4), Bite +17/+10/+5 melee (1d6+4 plus poison).
Face/Reach: 10 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: Jump, poisonous bite, web, spittle.
Special Qualities: Darkvision 60ft., regeneration, tremorsense 60ft.
Saves: Fort +12, Ref +7, Will +3.
Abilities: Str 19, Dex 17, Con 14, Int 15, Wis 8, Cha 7.
Skills: ??
Feats: Alertness, Improved Initiative, Multiattack, ??
Bloodline: True (Azrai) 95.
Blood Abilities: Animal Affinity – spiders (Great), Bloodform (Great), Invulnerability (Great), Long Life (Great), Major Regeneration and Regeneration (Great).

Climate/Terrain: The Spiderfell.
Organization: Solitary or with goblin bodyguard (12–36).
Challenge Rating: 14.
Treasure: See Below.
Alignment: Chaotic evil.

Overall a nice description, but I have to comment it a bit more.

Level: See prior posting… I would tend to some ranger or barbarian levels, but I would definitvly give it at least 5 monster class bloodline levels, if you want to introduce this system somehow in the game.

Attack : 2 Claw attacks one bite Attack, great; BUT an animal/ magical beast or something with 3 natural attacks NEVER gains an extra attack for a high BAB. It’s attack will improve, but not the numbers of attacks. It will have always 3 attacks, regardless of BAB. IMO it should sound like this:

Attacks: 2 Claws +17 melee (1d10+4), Bite +15 melee (1d6+4 plus poison) or switched if bite is its primary attack. The sec. Attack does only gains the –2 penalty because of Multiattack, maybe even Improved Multiattack is a choice for the Spider. If you want to use extra attacks because of a high level I would add something like this: "...or by weapon +.../.../... melee (+3 large greatsword of venom [or whatever] 3d6+... krit. 19-20x2) AND bite +15 melee ...."

What is the poison damage? I would say something like 1d8 temp. Con primary and secondary damage like a phase spider.


Abilities: Well, for a challenging monster definitivly too low! To be honest, if you don’t use point buy system, any PC with good rolled stats is at least as good as that! Wis 8, OK, the Spider isn’t wise, granted. For the other abilities here is my idea:

Str 23 Dex 25 Con 20 Int 12 Wis 8 Cha 17

Cha: The Spider might be ugly, but an Awnshegh IS intimidating, so a low Cha does not fit IMO.
Con: NATURALLY a spider has a good Con, it gains it’s modifier to the poison DC (it is 10+ 1/2 HD + Con. mod. to be exactly). 20 should be the lowest stat for such a monster in Con.

Dex and Str: Does not need an specific explanation, harvs2 said it...
For the Str score I would take 19 as base (maybe included the Ability bonusses for increased level) and would add +8 to it as well as +4 or even +6 to Dex for changing race into an awnsheglien...

[Raesene Andu]

Originally posted by The Green Knight@Mar 5 2004, 09:10 PM
I think that before starting to make stats for vaarious NPCs, some ground rules should be laid down, otherwise things might end up a bit inconsistent.
As some basic ground rules, I would like to keep the bloodline, blood abilities, and general feel of the NPC the same. Levels I'm a little ambivalent about. Personally, I'd keep it the same (and thus I did so on my very rough draft), but if a NPC obviously needs a change, then a change can be made...

The actual aim of the Atlas of Cerilia books is not to provide current Birthright players with a new version of the material, I imagine that everyone out like (including myself) already has their own preconcieved ideas about all the Awnsheghlien and more human regents. Rather I hope to provide a version of the setting that can be used by newcomers to BR. To that ends, I would prefer that a NPC's description is complient with 3.5E and thus easier for someone familiar with those rules to use the NPC in their new BR campaign...

All that said, I don't think we need to see an "Epic Spider", the standard one is nasty enough.

I'll respond to everyone's suggestions shortly, but I'm a little busy setting up my new computer (finally replacing my 3.5 year old system with a much faster new one). I'll also see if I can gather together the rough draft of the High Mage for everyone to pick apart and comment on. The spider and Aelies are the only two major NPCs in the Southern Coast, so the only one's I'll be looking at right now, but I have a few other things I might run past everyone while I'm editing the rest of the document.

[Raesene Andu]

I`ve always found it strange that the Spider isn`t a higher level character after 1,500 years.... Personally, I think he should have those 13 fighter levels and another 10-15 levels of an awnshegh class, but c`est la vie.

I've always imagined that the Spider was a 13th level fighter at Deismaar, 2000 years ago. He was the leader of at least one tribe of goblin, perhaps a major warlord, even leader of most of the goblins in Anuire (which would explain his true bloodline, only gifted to the chosen champions of the gods).

His insanity could be the reason why he has not developed his skills (as a fighter or whatever), but I see no reason why he cannot have developed his Awnshegh abilities over the years.



How`d you came up with +10 for natural armor? Matching it up with the AC
of the original character description (2e AC: -2 = 3e AC: 22?)

I believe so. I can't remember exactly, but that sounds like the way I would have done it.



Does the DC/damage of poison equate to a large spider? Same for

Web? What`s the range of spittle?

Currently poison is the same as a large spider, yes. I hadn't decided the web or spittle abilties (one of the reasons why I'm throwing this open to everyone)...

[geeman]

At 02:36 PM 3/5/2004 +0100, Raesene Andu wrote:



>>I`ve always found it strange that the Spider isn`t a higher level

>>character after 1,500 years.... Personally, I think he should have those

>>13 fighter levels and another 10-15 levels of an awnshegh class, but

>>c`est la vie.

>

>I`ve always imagined that the Spider was a 13th level fighter at Deismaar,

>2000 years ago. He was the leader of at least one tribe of goblin, perhaps

>a major warlord, even leader of most of the goblins in Anuire (which would

>explain his true bloodline, only gifted to the chosen champions of the gods).



I think that`s very reasonable. He may have added a level or two as a

fighter in the years immediately after Deismaar before his insanity started

to grab hold, but after that most of his levelling up would be as a

monster/awnshegh. In fact, most of the "original" awnsheghlien could

probably be so described except, perhaps, Rhoubhe who does not seem to have

transformed all that much comparatively.



>Currently poison is the same as a large spider, yes. I hadn`t decided the

>web or spittle abilties (one of the reasons why I`m throwing this open to

>everyone)...



If his web spinning ability is equal to a large spider`s then it`d have a

range of 50` with a range increment of 10` and would be be able to entangle

targets up to size huge. Escape artist check DC 13 or break (strength

check) DC 20 will get someone out of the web, and a 5`x5` section of it has

DR 5/-- and The 12 hit points.



Since the Spider can jump 30` and shoot webs 50` making his spittle attack

have a very short range would seem kind of silly. 20` would seem a

minimum, and 30` seems like a better number.



Gary

[geeman]

When it comes to the ability scores for the Spider I`d go with the standard

array, modify it for his character levels, apply modifiers for his race

(goblin) and those ability score increases/decreases for changing into a

large creature. He may have a few additional ability score modifiers here

and there to reflect additional changes to his physiology as an awnshegh,

but I`m of the opinion that the transformative effects of awnsheghlien and

ersheghlien should be handled by a character class, and in the case of the

Spider I think most of his transformation is in the area of his body, his

special abilities (webs, jump, poison) rather than ability scores, so his

stats shouldn`t go much beyond those increases.



Gary

[Osprey]

I think that`s very reasonable. He may have added a level or two as a
fighter in the years immediately after Deismaar before his insanity started
to grab hold, but after that most of his levelling up would be as a
monster/awnshegh.

I'd say that, using the revised 3.5 mechanics for scions, the next 2 (3?) levels after Desimaar should be as a Scion of Azrai, as he has a True bloodline. What needs to be hammered out after that is just how many monster (awnshegh) levels the Spider has acquired in the last 2000 years. Gods know he hasn't been entirely passive in all that time - he may be insane, but he's obviously not stupid or incapable of learning and adapting, otherwise the Anuirean Empire would have crushed him and the Spiderfell long, long ago.

I thought I read a reference somewhere (perhaps in the original 2e description?)that the Spider as a goblin was a great goblin general at Deismaar, and I'd say probably the general of all the goblins there. That being said, 13 levels as a fighter is easily believable when we're comparing him to most of the goblin commanders of Cerilia at that time!

[RaspK_FOG]

I'd go with a 14th- to 16th-ECL character for the Spider, but I am not sure...

This estimation is based on a 10th- to 12th-level goblin fighter, +1 or +2 awnshegh levels or whatever, +2 or +3 scion levels, as follows: 10-12 Ftr + 1 Ans + 3 Sci
10-12 Ftr + 2 Ans + 2 Sci

I tend to think the former is closer to the Spider, though... Oh well.

[Ariadne]

Here is a normal example of a normal PHB character who has the chance to eliminate the Spider in, well say, 2 no 3 rounds...

I made her completely without magical items (or artifacts like a dagger +1 ;) )

Druid level 12 (normal PHB human druid)

Wild shaped into a "normal" dire bear: Str 31, dex 13, con 19 (without boosts, see below) + druids mental abilities (I assume, wis 18 is minimum, rest average)

bite +17 [+boost] (2d8+8 [+magical boost]) and 2 claws each +19 [+boost] (2d4+13 [+magical boosts])

with following feats: Power attack,
cleave,
natural spell,
multiattack (MM) and
quick change (if dex 15 [savage species]) or
sancified natural attack (if good [book of exalted deeds])

and following spells on her: Greater magic fang
Barkskin
Stoneskin
several animal ability boosts (like bear's endurance)
Sunmantle ([if good] book of exalted deeds)

naturally any normal druid of 12th level is immune to poison.

Now tell me: How much rounds the spider will stand against her (in single combat) with her suggested stats?

I don't know, if you know what I mean, but I think, to be a real chalange, add about +10 to all physical abilities (if not levels) and let her have a poison of at least the "poison" spell (1d10/1d10 temporary con)...

[RaspK_FOG]

Are you sure that a 12th-level druid is that much of a given in Birthright? In any case, I would by all means be happy to see a CR 18 or more Spider... If I have the time, I may well work a little with my copy of Savage Species and bring up such an acceptable piece of work. Any orders?

[Osprey]

Now tell me: How much rounds the spider will stand against her (in single combat) with her suggested stats?


Here is where good DMing comes into play. Take on the Spider in my game, in the Spiderfell, and she'd die...I promise. With a good land speed, a very excellent Jump skill, some good stealth and alertness skills, and the Spring Attack feat, well...I imagine the cunning and nimble spider would happily ensnare the big bear with webs, terrain, and generally lead them on a merry chase through a very unfriendly forest...meanwhile, siccing minions on the druid and spring attacking at its leisure (then running away when the bear tries to respond). If there's one thing even the crazy 'ol Spider will have, it's the patience to deal with his prey in his own good time. :) Toy with them, even...give his life a few brief 'moments' of interest every few years.

Honestly, stats are but a small piece of the balance equation, a fact easily forgotten by those of us who read alot of rules but play only occasionally (at least with good combat DM's). Mobility-type abilities, esp. in a dense native terrain, is a tremendous advantage, one that would allow me for example to raise the CR of the Spider (by several levels) if he were actually defeated on his home ground. Situation plays an immense role in all but the most lopsided fights (and then only because D&D mechanics love that high-level characters can wade through masses of extras with nary a scratch! :( ).

Osprey

[kgauck]

Normally, victory against an opponant with superior mobility and a mobility

approach is had when you can pin them down and negate their mobility. The

bear has such an attack. If the druid in the form of a dire bear has the

Improved Grab ability, and the dire bear is larger than the Spider, this

might well be the downfall of the Spider.



Tomorrow on the Discovery Channel they will have Polar Bear vs Walrus on

"Animal Face-Off", on Sunday airing twice. Also Grizzly Bear vs Siberian

Tiger will air on the 24th. For those interested in using ideas about how

bears are thought to fight in real life, say interested druid players ;-)

its probably worth a look see.



The schedule for this show is at

http://dsc.discovery.com/schedule/series.jsp?series=24618&gid=12304&channel=DSC



Kenneth Gauck

kgauck@mchsi.com

[Lord Nycon]

Originally posted by Osprey @ Apr 16 2004+ 07:11 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE ( Osprey @ Apr 16 2004 &#064; 07:11 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Honestly, stats are but a small piece of the balance equation, a fact easily forgotten by those of us who read alot of rules but play only occasionally (at least with good combat DM&#39;s). [/b]

Good point Osprey. I have seen a few goblins and some tactics (and maybe some dirty fighting) give an advanced party a hard time. It all depends on how the DM plays the encounter. :D

AC 22 is fair if you actually do the math. Same goes about the Spider King being 13th level. I would keep to the book and give the King 81 hp. I would probably remove the poison special attack from bite for a spitting poison attack. Giving the option of two claw attacks and a bite or two claw attacks and spitting poison (probably at the ranger or rogue plucking arrows at him). Make the poison a Contact DC 20 type (3d6 Con/3d6 Con) and you might think twice before stepping into the ring. :blink:

I would keep the Strength between 16 and 17 to reflect the game stats and because it has the torso of a humanoid. I would also give the Spider King SR 14 also to reflect the game stats.

<!--QuoteBegin-geeman Posted on Mar 5 2004@ 04:30 PM
If his web spinning ability is equal to a large spider`s then it`d have a
range of 50` with a range increment of 10` and would be be able to entangle
targets up to size huge. [/quote]

The web would actually entangle targets from Medium-size and smaller. ;)

[irdeggman]

Strength should be higher than 16 or 17 since he/it is a Large creature and not a man sized one.

[Osprey]

Normally, victory against an opponant with superior mobility and a mobility
approach is had when you can pin them down and negate their mobility. The
bear has such an attack. If the druid in the form of a dire bear has the
Improved Grab ability, and the dire bear is larger than the Spider, this
might well be the downfall of the Spider.


The Spring Attack feat (which I would definitely give to the Spider) allows a character to move (I use Jump for that part), attack, and then move again (withdraw, normally), without suffering an attack of opportunity. The bear has to get within reach to grapple in the first place. :)

[kgauck]

----- Original Message -----

From: "Osprey" <brnetboard@BIRTHRIGHT.NET>

Sent: Friday, April 16, 2004 9:36 PM





> The Spring Attack feat (which I would definitely give to the

> Spider) allows a character to move (I use Jump for that part),

> attack, and then move again (withdraw, normally), without

> suffering an attack of opportunity. The bear has to get within

> reach to grapple in the first place. :)



Tactics are always a game of rock-paper-scissors. I would prefer to start

with first principles and then ask the rules to model a specific effect, and

not mistake the rules for the principles. As an example of this, reverse

the situation. Make the Bear the ancient abomination and have the druid

wild shape into the bouncy spider. Even of bouncy spider is faster, jumps,

and has Spring Attack, he`s not (or shouldn`t be) invulnerable. He has a

set of abilities that can be countered by the right build of a sufficient

level. For example, Spring Attack allows you to move both before and after

your attack, but you are still limited to your total movement. So even if

bouncy spider can move 60ft and and dire bear can only move 40ft, bouncy

spider cannot make sequential attacks without leaving himself exposed to an

attack himself. Bears in the wild are known to be pretty fast runners, so

certainly our bear can charge, increasing his speed in that attack to 80 ft.

Bouncy spider may bounce vertically, but a 6000 lb dire bear can topple

trees.



The important thing about considering the bear as the abomination and the

druid as the attacking spider is that you spend the same time investing in

the reverse scenario. Perhaps the bear has an ability derived from Combat

Reflexes that allows him to attack even when someone is suppressing their

own opportunity attacks (by using Spring Attack, for instance). After all,

this is a sport, bear baiting, in which you attempt to poke or prod the bear

without allowing the bear to get in a blow. Presumably the people who

practice it have the RL equivilent of Spring Attack. But, you know what

they say: Sometimes you get the bear, sometimes the bear gets you.



Even the rogue`s uncannly dodge isn`t perfect. A rogue four level higher

can still flank him.



Kenneth Gauck

kgauck@mchsi.com

[Ariadne]

Originally posted by RaspK_FOG
Are you sure that a 12th-level druid is that much of a given in Birthright? In any case, I would by all means be happy to see a CR 18 or more Spider... If I have the time, I may well work a little with my copy of Savage Species and bring up such an acceptable piece of work. Any orders?
Well, there are about a hand full of druids higher then 11th level known alone in Rjurik, so why not? I’m only wondering, why no druid already tried in 2000 years ;)

[Ariadne]

@Osprey: Don’t forget, she is a druid&#33; A druid might be more familiar with the spiderfell than the spider itself. There are several methods for the druid to recognise the spider bevore it does it (“commune with nature” for example). And naturally don’t forget: A druid can’t be tracked and gets several advantages like no hamper or damage in overgrown area (including forrests).

Further the druid can already wild shape 4 times per day, this means she can fly as a tiny bird (or an eagle, dire hawk or whatever) “directly” behind the spider (an eagle or dire hawk has a fly speed of 80 ft, that’s more than the spider even with Spring Attack) or even can disguise herself as a plant (a shambling mound for example). With the Natural Spell feat the druid can cast spells even in animal/ plant form and her Quick Change feat allows her to change shape AND attack in the same round (reducing the shaping time from standard to move action). I even did not mention the following: The druid can cast “Wall of Thorns” (5th level druid PHB spell) around the spider followed by charging into that wall and attacking (SHE doesn’t get damage, BUT the spider does). And don’t forget, if she KNOWS, that there is a SPIDER, she can cast “freedom of movement” as well ;)

Kenneth is right, that he mentioned the “improved grab” ability of a dire bear. The bear can grapple as a free action without provoking attacks of opportunity (the spider can’t do anything apart from opposing the grapple that round). The opposed grapple check with Str 31 (+ 4 for large size + magical boosts) against sensational Str 19 (+0 for medium size) is, say, hard for the Spider to win. To be honest, if the Spider is “only” medium sized, it has simply lost&#33; The spider has trouble to get through the bear’s damage reduction at all and what does the bear? Dealing damage only because she holds her mouth shut. The 91 hp of the spider ar gone with an blink of an eye and the bear has about 5 to 10 points of damage taken by the spider that she can heal with her next wild shape...


Don’t get me wrong, I don’t want to show you: WOW, a druid is invincible, even without magical items and bloodline. (Against the Gorgon this druid still is able to survive 1 round or 2) NO&#33; I wanted to show, that the Spider’s callenge rating is too weak for an major awnsheglien with 2000 years on it’s back (and has managed to SURVIVE that long)&#33; As RaspK_FOG said: Let her have a CR of 18 or something like that. Give her good abilites, perfectly fitting feats, some nice “special attacks”, a REALLY deadly poison (no kids play like 1d6/1d6 temporary con), at least large size, a HIGHER CR and, and, and...
Then the Spider is as good as it’s reputation…


@Kenneth: I saw a movie on a German discovery channel about polar bears a few weeks ago and I must say: I was impressed…

[kgauck]

I think that many of the spells and attacks Ariadne mentioned would be

reduced in effectiveness. The Spider, as a regent, has a bloodline link to

its realm, and may have the ability (some DM`s will assume this ability,

other would like a power defined) to counter or interfere with a Commune

With Nature spell. To a certian degree, this spell is kind of a Commune

with Spider on his own turf spell. I would probably add a -10 or -15

penalty to the skill checks involved. [ed. It has dawned on me that not

everyone would use Knowledge (Nature) skill checks to resolve Commune With

Nature attempts, but here is a reason to do so.]



Likewise thorn patches, walls of thorns, and and plant growth will not be as

effective as the druid has experienced with other opponans, because the

Spider is a three dimentional opponant, meaning they won`t just manouvre on

the plane of the surface of the world, but will jump and climb around

obstacles. However....



Watching footage of bears in action in today`s episode of "Animal Face Off"

(it was wolf v cougar) neither wolves nor cougars dared attack a bear from

the front. The longest peice of footage involved a pack of four wolves

surrounding a juvenile bear. They were manouvering for attacks on sides and

rear of the bear where his bite-claw reactions were irrelevant. In

discussing the cougar, they analogized to the lion who has a claw speed of

17ft per sec and can transmit 2/3`s of its bodyweight into a claw blow.

That sounds like an ability to launch attacks of opportunity against anyone

who moves into the window of opportunity.



So... here`s where some walls of thorns and so forth come into their own.

These obstacles could be created to block the Spider from flanking the druid

and making any attacks outside the front facing of the bear, and containing

and limiting the Spider`s movements so that the bear can isolate and charge

or otherwise get at the Spider. The Spider would be forced to respond just

as most light, mobile forces respond to slow, heavy forces, by withdrawing

after a few attacks.



Kenneth Gauck

kgauck@mchsi.com

[RaspK_FOG]

It suddenly dawned on me that there is something entirely unrealistic and, well, blunt regarding flavour when we take a look at the Spider: do you know what spider venom does to its victim?

Unlike common knowledge, most spiders and almost all of those that spin webs do not have lethal poisons, and this is not a matter of size... Spider venom generally is a paralysing agent; the kill is made by the spider later on, when it injects its gastric fluids into the victim (I do not know what is the case when we take "hunting" spiders into account, like the wolf spider), which dissolves from the inside. Since paralysis is either a result of nulling one&#39;s muscle power or mobility (Strength or Dexterity 0 respectively), I think that making the Spider&#39;s venom deal both initial nd secondary damage of 1d6 temporary Strength and 1d6 Dexterity damage (failing both saves results in 2d6 Str and 2d6 Dex damage) is more fitting and up to it...

[Ariadne]

Originally posted by RaspK_FOG@Apr 17 2004, 11:18 PM
It suddenly dawned on me that there is something entirely unrealistic and, well, blunt regarding flavour when we take a look at the Spider: do you know what spider venom does to its victim?


And? It&#39;s completely irrelevant what the poison does with its victims. Immunity to poison is immunity to poison...

[geeman]

At 01:41 AM 4/18/2004 +0200, Ariadne wrote:



> <&#33;Begin-RaspK_FOG+Apr 17 2004, 11:18 PM--&#62;</div><table border=`0`

> align=`center` width=`95%` cellpadding=`3`

> cellspacing=`1`><tr><td>QUOTE (RaspK_FOG @ Apr 17 2004, 11:18

> PM)</td></tr><tr><td id=`QUOTE`>&#60;&#33;--QuoteEBegin--&#62; It suddenly dawned on

> me that there is something entirely unrealistic and, well, blunt

> regarding flavour when we take a look at the Spider: do you know what

> spider venom does to its victim?

> [/QUOTE]

>And? It`s completely irrelevant what the poison does with its victims.



If a poison does strength or dexterity damage the victim is "helpless" when

that stat reaches 0. They fall prone (strength) or stand motionless

(dexterity) and cannot move, effectively "paralyzing" them. If

constitution reaches 0 the victim dies. Therefore, if one wants to make

the Spider`s poison do something that actual spider poison does (paralyze

rather than kill) then one of those ability scores is better than constitution.



Having said that, it`s probably important to note that THE Spider isn`t A

spider. He`s an iconic transformation of a goblin into a theriomorph based

on the influence of a corrupt and degenerative divine power. Oozing deadly

poison from one`s fangs might suit such a form. Also, there are a few

spiders that are deadly for all that their poison is supposed to paralyze,

so one could still go with constitution and justify it that

way. Personally, I think the paralytic effect is just as apt as a deadly

one (and has a few ancillary effects--like allowing for the possibility of

captives in need of rescue, which is a nice adventure hook) so I`d go with

strength damage.



Gary

[Ariadne]

Originally posted by kgauck
I think that many of the spells and attacks Ariadne mentioned would be reduced in effectiveness. The Spider, as a regent, has a bloodline link to its realm, and may have the ability (some DM`s will assume this ability, other would like a power defined) to counter or interfere with a Commune With Nature spell. To a certian degree, this spell is kind of a Commune with Spider on his own turf spell. I would probably add a -10 or –15 penalty to the skill checks involved. [ed. It has dawned on me that not everyone would use Knowledge (Nature) skill checks to resolve Commune With Nature attempts, but here is a reason to do so.]
WOW, I never used a skill check for any spell (apart from spellcraft for counterspells), might be a nice idea. You should think of the relative high level for the druid. She normally should have all avalable 15 ranks in knowledge (nature), and even, if not this smart there are several bonusses a druid gets because of her “profession” and should give her something like +18 or so. If the druid is Reynir blooded, she might add an extra bonus and cancel the regent penalty she might get at all. Maybe something like a “regent spell resistance” is not wrong with something like an opposed caster level check (maybe even modified by bloodline strength). As such a commune with nature says, how much “unnatural” beings are within the area and where and if the druid is a regent herself, the spell should function automatically (as normally too).


Likewise thorn patches, walls of thorns, and and plant growth will not be as effective as the druid has experienced with other opponans, because the Spider is a three dimentional opponant, meaning they won`t just manouvre on the plane of the surface of the world, but will jump and climb around obstacles. However....
Well, it’s equal, if the spider is a three dimension opponent, if the druid casts the spell, when the spider is not climbing. As for the 5th level spell, the spider gets no save and suffers automatically damage. To walk 5 ft per round, it has to succed a strength check DC 25 (again a nice try with str 19) or she can’t do a step (and still gets damage). I’m of your oppinion: Entange or plant growth is completely useless because the spider has a saving throw. Wall of Thorns should freeze her to the spot, if the does not have spell resistance. IMO a nice addition to a higher CR, as well as DR (maybe even a better than …/magic, how about 10/cold iron, that’s nearly impossible to overcome or even combined: 10/ magic AND silver for example) and some kind of fast healing (or even regeneration). Further I would use a bite attack and a special spittle attack in addition (can’t be wrong to add several things).

Generally RaspK_FOG’s idea isn’t bad at all: 1d6 Str + 1d6 dex, the only thing is, I don’t like that one d6. I don’t have a problem to use a d10 for both (or at least d8). In D&D terms a spider naturally can have both types: Some spider “races” deal str, some con damage (but more often con damage). Normally THE Spider IS deadly (she had a deadly poison in 2nd Ed too) and it still should be. I think we need not to overdo it, I saw Epic Spiders deal 2d12 temporary con (primary + secondary damage) with a fort save of 35 or so, but it should be something like 1d10, 2d8, 3d6 or something like that with a fort save of at least 25. Maybe the spider can have “ability focus (poison)” or “virulent poison” + deadly poison (all savage species) or all as feats (just an idea).

[tcharazazel]

Well... the tactics of bringin up a wall of thorns to cover the druids/bear&#39;s back would nt be good as the bear would have to stay there... while all those goblin archers just kept shooting it with arrows.

As for using the wall to slow the spider down... you seem to have forgotten the fact that the spider can jump... heh, so why bother trying to go through the wall at 5&#39;? A lvl 12 druid could make a 12 10&#39; cubes that are still just 10&#39; high... so for a large creature with jump thats really easy to jump over. Though if you do manage to catch him on the ground, yeah it prob would slow him down, tho you would still need to get through those spiders, and goblins in the way to the spider before he gets out cause unless you have a really nice DM you&#39;ll never face him alone.

However, if you get someone who isnt that good at playin monsters... i bet you could win fairly easy. If you get someone who knows what theyre doing... you&#39;ll be facing a few units of goblins and other monsters, like spiders, that the druid would have to either fight through or find a way around somehow. (by units i mean full army units cause if the Spider has been organizing raids for years on neighboring provinces, hes bound to have plenty of decent troops, maybe even a few decent Lieutenants)

If you use the commune with nature it would make sense that you would be able to get past the army units... unless you consider the fact that the goblins probably have created a small town in the center of the Spiderfell, and commune with nature doesnt work there, heheh. As commune with nature only works in outdoorsettings at 1mile/lvl or underground for 100&#39;/lvl and not in places where construction replaced nature... like a goblin settlement or town.

Heh, the Spider would probably have a cool old palace type area designed with defense and impressiveness in mind... Dont forget this guy was the general who lead the goblin armies, so he woudl know that building up a solid defense would be a very good idea... probably lots of traps throughout the Spiderfell, that the locals know about tho this poor little druid who can only ask 3 questions per spell just may forget about if there is something off about teh natural seting in certain areas... and then whoops fell into a spike pit with a loud wham and the goblin horns shout out so the druid just has about 2-3 rounds before goblins start arriving... heheh, true a few goblins wouldnt be a prob, tho when they see whos in the trap... well then prob gonna get some of the town raised and then its best to run unless the druid feels like facing a few 100 goblins...

Well, if you subscribe to the idea that insanity means stupidity... heh, you&#39;ve watched too much Jackass. Go watch Silence of the Lambs heh, get some better ideas... he may have had difficulty becoming a spider in the first 100 years... tho with 2000 years to get used to things being the way they are? are you kidding&#33; 2000 years... heh its obvious that hes a survivalist so he must have gotten used to it. And as a general he prob has excellent ideas on how to defend the Spiderfell.. and with 2000 years to prepare and experience in going over various ways to think about different people trying to get into his little Fell, he could be paraniod and prob is to some extent, he could easily thought of hundreds of ways to deal with intruders... so there are prob lots more defenses than just traps i mean.

Heheh, for all that... doesnt really matter what his CR is... cause by the time you get to him you&#39;ll be dead or near it, unless you are close to or are epic and have a strong group ready for the invasion. Tho, a very large army would prob be better...

[Ariadne]

Originally posted by tcharazazel@Apr 18 2004, 06:39 PM
Well... the tactics of bringin up a wall of thorns to cover the druids/bear&#39;s back would nt be good as the bear would have to stay there... while all those goblin archers just kept shooting it with arrows.


The trick was: Stoneskin...

[tcharazazel]

heh, stone skin doesnt last through 100s of arrows... as the druid would only be able to soak 120 total dmg from the arrows.

[kgauck]

----- Original Message -----

From: "tcharazazel" <brnetboard@BIRTHRIGHT.NET>

Sent: Sunday, April 18, 2004 1:10 PM





> tcharazazel wrote:

> heh, stone skin doesnt last through 100s of arrows...



The match proposed was a druid in the form of dire bear against the spider,

not the druid against the whole Spiderfell. There are two times this could

happen. Either the druid has eluded the military forces of the Spider and

caught him "alone", or the druid has an army and the two armies are fighting

while the two face off in the middle of the great melee.



Armies almost never survive the death of their commander, especially a royal

one. It causes a moral check with a really nasty penalty. So, putting

aside whose army wins, the druid may reason that his force only has to stay

in the field while he takes on the Spider himself. If the druid wins, the

army wins.



Its also worth noting that the Spider raids nearby realms. Perhaps the

Spider could be engaged outside the fell. What then?



It certainly follows that a 2000 year old abomination should be tough to

take down, after all, he`s resisted 2000 years of challengers. But it

doesn`t follow that he is invulnerable. In fact, from a campaign in Anuire

standpoint, I`d like to see the heros remove either the Spider or the

Manslayer as a penultimate act before finally being hailed as the next

Emperor. The question then is, what is the proper challenge of the Spider.



Kenneth Gauck

kgauck@mchsi.com

[Athos69]

*WHY* are we engaged in this annoying pissing contest? It is irrelevant to balancing the Spider to make suppositions based on "What if you dropped him in an arena with a 12th level druid?"

First of all: Druids are uncommon to say the least in Anuire, and the hotbed of Druidic activity, the Rjurik Highlands, couldn&#39;t give a damn about the Spider -- they have their hands full with the White Witch, the Sidhe and the goblins. The chances of having a druid who is specifically tricked out like this to deal with the Spider are remote to say the least.

Next, you have ignored the damage you would take scouting the forest to find your prey. Spiders, goblins and gnolls would all suck your hitpoints, spells and expendable magic items before you finally found your quarry.

Fiinally, Tal Qazar is a cunning and tricky opponent -- he will strike first from concealment, have multiple traps ready and never be without a backup plan or escape route that you will be unable to follow. While you lick your wounds, and have your spells expended, he will strike again in force.

[tcharazazel]

actually ken, if you look at his blood abilities, he is invulnerable...

[RaspK_FOG]

Originally posted by Ariadne+Apr 18 2004, 02:41 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Ariadne @ Apr 18 2004, 02:41 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-RaspK_FOG@Apr 17 2004, 11:18 PM
It suddenly dawned on me that there is something entirely unrealistic and, well, blunt regarding flavour when we take a look at the Spider: do you know what spider venom does to its victim?


And? It&#39;s completely irrelevant what the poison does with its victims. Immunity to poison is immunity to poison... [/b][/quote]
You missed my point here: I was referring to a change regarding the stats for the Spider; I am generally against Constitution damage when we deal with some kinds of predatorial creatures, and spiders are such a case (most spiders&#39; venom cannot even kill an ant&#33;), I didn&#39;t mean to say that a druid&#39;s poison immunity has to do anything with this...

Allow me to say, though, that while Athos was harsh, he has a point: what I earlier meant to write was not "if a 12th-level druid is a given" but "if such a 12th-level druid is a given"...

[Ariadne]

Originally posted by tcharazazel@Apr 18 2004, 10:32 PM
actually ken, if you look at his blood abilities, he is invulnerable...
Invulnerable is still not invinvible ;)

[Ariadne]

Originally posted by tcharazazel+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (tcharazazel)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>As for using the wall to slow the spider down... you seem to have forgotten the fact that the spider can jump... heh, so why bother trying to go through the wall at 5&#39;? A lvl 12 druid could make a 12 10&#39; cubes that are still just 10&#39; high... so for a large creature with jump thats really easy to jump over. Though if you do manage to catch him on the ground, yeah it prob would slow him down, tho you would still need to get through those spiders, and goblins in the way to the spider before he gets out cause unless you have a really nice DM you&#39;ll never face him alone. [/b]
He,he, if the spider can’t move at all, it can’t jump too (you know, that Str check DC 25) ;)



Originally posted by tcharazazel+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (tcharazazel)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> However, if you get someone who isnt that good at playin monsters... i bet you could win fairly easy. If you get someone who knows what theyre doing... you&#39;ll be facing a few units of goblins and other monsters, like spiders, that the druid would have to either fight through or find a way around somehow. (by units i mean full army units cause if the Spider has been organizing raids for years on neighboring provinces, hes bound to have plenty of decent troops, maybe even a few decent Lieutenants) [/b]
He he, that example druid can fly in (over the forrest for example), fight and fly out. No sain goblin will pay attention to a small bird or bat or other tiny animal, if it only passes. I’m sure even a goblin will not attack any creature it meets just for fun, they won’t notice it (and don’t tell me, that forrest has no animals :) ). And if those troops are searching after the attack? So what&#33; They only have seen a shape changing animal (if at all) and I’m sure they don’t have a “true seeing” at hand... :D


Originally posted by tcharazazel
If you use the commune with nature it would make sense that you would be able to get past the army units... unless you consider the fact that the goblins probably have created a small town in the center of the Spiderfell, and commune with nature doesnt work there, heheh. As commune with nature only works in outdoorsettings at 1mile/lvl or underground for 100&#39;/lvl and not in places where construction replaced nature... like a goblin settlement or town.
Yeah, that would be an idea. She will naturally know, how large the town is (because of the size of the dead spot). If she is smart, she can guess the number of goblin families (at least a bit) and knows how much villages lie within the spiderfell and where the largest (the center) is ;)
After that she naturally may spy as an animal or even shape changing into a dire wolf or worg (I’m not sure in the moment, if a worg is an animal or magical beast, but the dire wolf will do) and “serve” as a riding animal for a time ;)


Originally posted by tcharazazel
Heh, the Spider would probably have a cool old palace type area designed with defense and impressiveness in mind... Dont forget this guy was the general who lead the goblin armies, so he woudl know that building up a solid defense would be a very good idea... probably lots of traps throughout the Spiderfell, that the locals know about tho this poor little druid who can only ask 3 questions per spell just may forget about if there is something off about teh natural seting in certain areas... and then whoops fell into a spike pit with a loud wham and the goblin horns shout out so the druid just has about 2-3 rounds before goblins start arriving... heheh, true a few goblins wouldnt be a prob, tho when they see whos in the trap... well then prob gonna get some of the town raised and then its best to run unless the druid feels like facing a few 100 goblins...
Still the same: FLY is the magic word ;)
Naturally if it’s a complete adventuring party they would be stupid going into such an area without a good skilled roughe (and maybe they have a ranger or character with Reynir blood to find foot prints), hmmm?

<!--QuoteBegin-tcharazazel@
Well, if you subscribe to the idea that insanity means stupidity... heh, you&#39;ve watched too much Jackass. [/quote]
Hey, that’s a good one :D

<!--QuoteBegin-tcharazazel
Go watch Silence of the Lambs heh, get some better ideas... he may have had difficulty becoming a spider in the first 100 years... tho with 2000 years to get used to things being the way they are? are you kidding&#33; 2000 years... heh its obvious that hes a survivalist so he must have gotten used to it. And as a general he prob has excellent ideas on how to defend the Spiderfell.. and with 2000 years to prepare and experience in going over various ways to think about different people trying to get into his little Fell, he could be paraniod and prob is to some extent, he could easily thought of hundreds of ways to deal with intruders... so there are prob lots more defenses than just traps i mean. . [/quote]
Hey, I saw that movie...

I’m of your oppinion: The spider is 2000 years old&#33; You SAID IT&#33;&#33;&#33; It should have a CR of 20 only if it eats one of its goblins every day&#33; And if there WHERE adventuring parties it callanged in the last centuries (and I’m sure there where several “stupid” guys) it must have created some epic magical items or met a spectre every few years to loose all those earned XP...
2000 years an NO level increase? WOW, it must be stupid&#33; You can’t tell me the spider spend all its live after deismaar with rolling thumbs&#33;

OH&#33; That’s it&#33; Now I know&#33; The spider met a banshee and survived somehow&#33; This also would explain her lousy abilities&#33;

[Ariadne]

Originally posted by kgauck@Apr 18 2004, 09:40 PM
----- Original Message -----

From: "tcharazazel" <brnetboard@BIRTHRIGHT.NET>

Sent: Sunday, April 18, 2004 1:10 PM





> tcharazazel wrote:

> heh, stone skin doesnt last through 100s of arrows...



The match proposed was a druid in the form of dire bear against the spider,

not the druid against the whole Spiderfell.
Yeah, that was the point...

[tcharazazel]

:D I&#39;m glad we agree the CR is too low. Its somethng that seems low for any 2000+ year old being, heh hell even 100+ years, tho the spirit of BR is that its a low level game... which basically somehow overrules the common facts that there would never be a being that is below epic level that has lived for that long, experienced that much, and has managed to retain even a fraction of the knowledge learned over its life time. Basically, it falls into that whole arguement with the elves and how they should be much tougher cause they are immortal ect.

Heh, and i bet other druids have tried to kill him by now either with a group or how you describe it, wild shaped into a little bird and sneaking in. So, you&#39;d have to figure that he would keep a few good Lieutenants nearby him at all times, for example a shaman and a fighter, both of whom would be decent level as they could have been leading the raids on the neighboring provinces.

And actually, I never said the spider would lead those raids and thus leave the Fell, just that he would organize them :) heheh, cause by now, he really shouldnt be getting exp from slaughtering lots of low level minions, problems of being so old and so high level and like you said he may have been caught outside the fell before and survived so why would he want to keep riskin his neck, when he could just as easy send a general of his.

So, you could always wait to attack him when those minions are off looting the nearby provinces... so there would only be a small defense at home. Though, you&#39;d really think that the Spider would probably have lots of pet spiders that he would keep with him and could easily call at a moments notice with great animal affinity...

Heh, it really comes down to how likely you are to face the spider one on one which is the basis for your arguement... and mine is simply that its almost impossible to do so, for longer than 1 round at least, and we already know that the druid would require several rounds to defeat the spider. as the 1st round would be to cast wall of thorns, 2nd round would be to change into the bear, 3rd round would be to move up and possibly engage... ect.

If you tried to meet him on the battlefield then he would definately not be alone so im surprised that was even brought up as he would definately have his bodyguards and his lieutenants with him then. Tho of course id sure hope the druid wouldnt be alone for that either.

And the greatest problem the druid would face... even if the druid managed to get in there and "kill" the Spider... the spider still wouldnt be dead... unless somehow the druid was able to figure out how to overcome the Invulnerability... heh, and by the time the druid had managed to kill the Spider, the druid would have the whole of the goblin town, or army ect attacking... so unless crushing him to death with your dead wieght is the key to defeating the spiders Invulnerability then it wouldnt prove all that useful to even try. Heh, cause in a few days with his major regen hell be up and about, while the druid would have been a nice meal for the goblins.

The Invulnerability, Major regen and great animal affinity is probably what has saved the Spider from many such suprise attacks and lived to tell about, at least for the first couple hundred years when he would have been caught off guard by the use of such tactics... after 2000+ years... hes probably ready for just about anything you can think of throwin at him, especially considering that he is just guarding a small area and has ben doing so very successfully for so long.


Heheh, looking over this.. i went a little off topic and countered myself once tho as a whole... I&#39;d have to say thats one suicidal druid who would try to fly in and take out the Spider alone.

[kgauck]

----- Original Message -----

From: "Athos69" <brnetboard@BIRTHRIGHT.NET>

Sent: Sunday, April 18, 2004 3:42 PM



> *WHY* are we engaged in this annoying pissing contest?

> It is irrelevant to balancing the Spider to make suppositions

> based on "What if you dropped him in an arena with

> a 12th level druid?"



These kind of excercises may not appeal to everyone, but they do help you

figure out if anything is way off kilter. I`ve run test combats with player

characters (without the players) to see if an unusual encounter was way too

easy or way too hard. Often players respond differently, but the encounter

is improved by the advanced consideration. Its also worth noting that

players can make encounters much more difficult that I thought they were or

more easy, but that`s part of playing with people rather than stat blocks.

The advantage of the run through is that you know that stat part of the game

is in the target zone. Normal kinds of encounters have CR`s built in, and

its easier to figure out if three goblins with 2 rogue levels apiece is a

good match for the players than a unique creature with unusual abilities.



Kenneth Gauck

kgauck@mchsi.com

[kgauck]

----- Original Message -----

From: "tcharazazel" <brnetboard@BIRTHRIGHT.NET>

Sent: Sunday, April 18, 2004 4:32 PM





> actually ken, if you look at his blood abilities, he is invulnerable...



Well, he`s "invulnerable" or his invulnerable ;-) but he`s not invulnerable

in the plain meaning of that word. That particular blood ability means

there is a secret way to permemently end the Spider`s life. That`s a far

cry from being without a vulnerability. Its invulnerable in the way

Achilles was invulnerable.



Kenneth Gauck

kgauck@mchsi.com

[fiftyone]

Tal-Qazar (The Spider)

Level 16 Awnsheghlien Fighter
Hit Dice: 13d10+3d8+64+16+10 (174 hp).
Initiative: +3 (+3 Dex).
Speed: 40 ft. (8 squares), climb 20ft.
AC: 23 (-1 Size, +3 Dex, +11 natural).
Base Attack/Grapple: +16/+27
Attack: Claw +23 melee (1d6+7)
Full Attack: 2 Claws +23 melee (1d6+7) and Bite +20 melee (1d8+3 plus poison).
Face/Reach: 10 ft./10 ft. (claws), 5 ft. (bite)
Special Attacks: poisonous bite, pounce, spittle, web
Special Qualities: darkvision 60ft., incredible jump, quickness, regeneration 1, spell resistance 15, tremorsense 60ft.
Saves: Fort +13, Ref +11, Will +6.
Abilities: Str 24, Dex 16, Con 19, Int 12, Wis 8, Cha 13.
Skills: Climb +28, Handle Animal +4, Hide +10, Intimidate +11, Jump +36, Listen +1, Move Silently +6, Ride +6, Spot +13, Swim +10
Feats: Combat Reflexes, Dodge, Fleet of Foot, Hold the Line, Improved Toughness, Improved Natural Armor, Improved Overrun, Mobility, Mult-attack, Power Attack, Run, Spring Attack, Weapon Focus (claws)
Bloodline: True (Azrai) 95.
Blood Abilities: Animal Affinity – spiders (Great), Bloodform (Great), Invulnerability (Great), Long Life (Great), Major Regeneration and Regeneration (Great).

Organization: Solitary or with goblin bodyguard (12–36).
Challenge Rating: 20.
Treasure: See Below.
Alignment: Chaotic evil


Incredible Jump (ex): When making a jump action the Spider&#39;s horizontal jump DC is half the normal and for a vertical jump is only doubled (normally quadrupalled).

Quickness (su): While not overly dexterous, the Spider is supernaturally quick and can take an extra standard action or move action during its turn each round.

Poisonous bite: Initial damage Fort Save DC 22 or die. Secondary damage 1d6 con and 1d6 str.

Pounce (ex): If the spider charges, he can make a full attack.

Spittle (ex): Poison based defensive action that deals 1d6 damage (fortitude DC22 to avoid) and blinds opponents struck for 1d6 rounds. Affects up to 3 creatures in a 15 ft. radius or 60 ft. cone.

Web (ex): Once per round as a standard action the Spider can throw web as a ranged touch attack. This is similar to an attack with a net but has a max range of 50 feet with range increments of 10 feet, and is effective against targets of huge size or smaller. An entagled creature can escape with a successful Escape Artist check (DC 21) or burst it with a strength check (DC 25).

---

I&#39;m new and I was bored&#33; Well i&#39;m not really new, but I havn&#39;t visited here in a longtime and forgot my old account info ^_^ I had been helping on a 3E Birthright NPC Conversion with a few other people, but I lost contact with them :(

Anyways, It took me about 45 minutes to put this together. Read through the entire topic and took in mind peoples opinions. I think it turned out pretty well. ^_^

The 3d8 extra hit die is monstrous humanoid levels (I guess). I started him with the elite array str 15, dex 14, con 13, in 12, wis 8, chr 10 with hobgoblin as base creature so +2 dex and con. Large size increased str by +8 and con by +4 and dex -2. From levels I dropped one point in Str, 2 in Dex and 1 in Chr, but added a couple more to chr after reviewing the topic. ^_^

Carapace is +10 to +12 natural armor so that could be razed a little. He also had 15% Magic Res. in 2E so I gave him spell resistance 15 (previous builds of Rhuobhe and the Gorgon i&#39;ve done had them 18 and 22 respectively and in 2E they were 25% and 40%).

Also gave him monstrous spider racial bonuses w/ hunter subtype. 40 ft. move because he was 15 in 2E and the base 1st lvel warrior hobgoblin skills for good measure.

Oh and.. please don&#39;t hurt me&#33; I just like creating dnd creatures n&#39; stuff :)

[tcharazazel]

if you want to follow the 3.5 rules then his levels will prob be more like, level 14 fighter, level 2 scion of azri, and then some odd number of levels in giant spider actually... on second thought... check out Savage species if you have the book, pages 121-122 they have the template Insectile that can be added to a creature... heheh and adds +2 to level adjustment. Now true spiders arent insects however its rather close so not so dif to change. For those who dont have the book heres what it adds

Insectile creatures:

Size and Type: The creatures type changes to Aberration.

Speed: An insectile creature gains a climb speed equal to its land speed.

AC: Because of the insectile creature;s chitinous shell, the base creature&#39;s natureal armor bonus increases by +2.

Attacks: Despite having 6 arms, insectile creatures gain no additional attacks.

Special Qualities: An insectile creature gains darkvision 60&#39;, tremorsense 60&#39; and wide vision: Because of its multiple eyes and wide angle of vison, an insectile creature has a +4 racial bonus on Spot checks and cannont be flanked.

Abilities: +4 dex, +2 wis

Climate/Terrain: same as base creature, but never aquatic

CR: Base Creatures +1

Level Adj: +2

A final side note is that Insectile creatures preferred class is rogue. Some become druids or clerics, but most take advantage of their high Dex scores and their climbing abilities by advancing as rogues.

So... to fix that for a spider... we would prob just add in that... size adjust to large, Attacks would have 8 appendages tho cant atk with all (unless he gets multi atk heheh), pounce, and incredible jump, poison bite. Worth another +1-2 lvl really and well call it Arachnid to make it more accurate, so total of +3-4 level.

So that would make him effectively have... 14 fighter levels, 2 scion levels of azri (unless true bloodlines have 3), and 3-4 levels of Arachnid. So a total of 20-21 levels. To be honest... he prob would have gotten a few levels of rogue for that sneak attack and then spring away, heheh, tho we dont need to get into that.

The other thing is that the assumption is that hes totally a spider now... why does he have to be totally a spider? Why not something more like a drider, part spider part goblin (or hobgoblin)? Heheh, that would give him the option to use either his old favorite weapons from before the changes otherwise all those fighter bonus feats he got when he was just a normal goblin would have become totally useless, like weapon focus and specialization, and greater focus and specialization. And he could stil have the poison bite and spittle. heheh, so he would be a tough fight for anybody then really... with a base attack +15/10/5 and +2 higher for using his favored weapon along with any nice bonuses it may have... and even higher if you add in some rogue levels...

Now that would not be fun to face... oh no, def not fun to face alone... especially considering he would not be likely to be alone.

As its obvious weve been deciding that he&#39;s a combination of both the monster manual III (the 3.5 version) hunter spider and web spinner spider. The hunter gets +10 to jump checks and +8 to spot checks, and the web spinner gets +8 to hide and move silently checks when using their webs. and they both get +8 to climb checks and they can always choose to take 10 when making them and they can choose to use either their Str or Dex whichever is higher for the climb checks. So, heh it really it depends on how much we want to get into exactly what type of spider he either fully or partially (1/2 goblin 1/2 spider idea) changed into.

heh, gotta say its def fun makin the spider tho.

http://home.earthlink.net/~blaede/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/spider.gif

[Ariadne]

@fiftyone: cool work...

Edit: @tcharazazel: Fine, that we are of one opinion ;)
Your suggestion of an insectile creature is pretty good...

[Osprey]

The Spider is actually pictured as a drider-type form, tho 1/2-goblin rather than 1/2-drow, in the original box set of BR. But this would be why he has Insectile features rather than being completely "spiderized", which would prob. mean all monster levels.

I&#39;d vouch for the ruling that the Spider&#39;s transformation, and subsequent(?) insanity would have converted some of his original fighting levels to monster levels as he loses his "humanity" (goblinanity?) to the awnshegh he is becoming. So that +2 ECL for the template would be subtracted from fighter levels rather than representing new levels of advancement.

Also, I&#39;d much rather go with Ranger than Fighter for Tal-Qazar, and then perhaps some Rogue levels stacked on if total ECL allows for it.

Then again, I&#39;d have no problem with an ECL 25-30 Spider B) .

Off the top of my head for ECL 25, maybe Ranger 10/ Rogue 6/ Abberation 4 [6] (Insectile)/ Scion 3 (True Bloodline of Azrai).

So he&#39;d be a 23 HD creature, ECL 25, and probably CR 24 or less.

[tcharazazel]

Yeah, the reason i was sticking with the levels in fighter was because i figured that as a general its prob what he was focused on then, instead of ranger. As Fighters are the more typical General, though ranger could also work.

[fiftyone]

Goblin, Hobgoblin or Bugbear?

He could also be Human or Elven. (Blood Enemies)

Driders climb at 1/2 their normal move speed and they fight with daggers. They have average jumping ability. Creatures like Yuan-Ti and Medusa are Monstrous Humanoid so I figured that went well.

If you interpret insanity as becoming more animilistic (in the Spider&#39;s case) you could apply Vermin Traits to him, making his intelligence nil, pump his hitdice up, give him multiattack and he&#39;d be similar to what I made, just w/o all the feats and large adjustments to the skills. I don&#39;t have Savage Species so that information is unavailable to me.

Applying a template to him doesn&#39;t seem right to me. He&#39;s been changed through his own action by nothing less than a divine source. IMO, his type could be Abberatiom or Monstrous Humanoid (Augmented Humanoid [?]) or simply Awnshegh (Augmented Humanoid) and with the latter, follow class/racial levels/hit dice.

Hrmm..

Tal-Qazar (The Spider)

Level Awnsheghlien (augmented Humanoid)
Hit Dice: 24d8+98 (206 hp)
Initiative: +4 (+4 Dex).
Speed: 40 ft. (8 squares), climb 20ft.
AC: 23 (-1 Size, +4 Dex, +10 natural)
Attacks: 2 Claws +24 melee (1d6+7) Bite +21 melee (1d8+3 plus poison).
Face/Reach: 10 ft./10 ft. (claws), 5 ft. (bite)
Special Attacks: poisonous bite, pounce, spittle, web
Special Qualities: darkvision 60ft., frightful presence, incredible jump, quickness, regeneration, spell resistance 15, tremorsense 60ft.
Saves: Fort +18, Ref +12, Will +8.
Abilities: Str 24, Dex 20, Con 19, Int - or 2 to have non-racial feats and skills, Wis 10, Cha 13.
Skills: Climb +28, Hide +12, Intimidate +11, Jump +36, , Move Silently +8, Spot +14
Feats: Dodge, Fleet of Foot, Improved Overrun, Mobility, Mult-attack, Power Attack, Run, Spring Attack
Bloodline: True (Azrai) 95.
Blood Abilities: Animal Affinity – spiders (Great), Bloodform (Great), Invulnerability (Great), Long Life (Great), Major Regeneration and Regeneration (Great).

Organization: Solitary or with goblin bodyguard (12–36).
Challenge Rating: 20.
Treasure: See Below.
Alignment: Chaotic evil

Frightful Presence (ex): 30ft. radius, DC23 will save.Creatures fewer than 9 hit ice become Frightened with a failed save, shaken if successful. Creatures of 9 to 23 hit dice become shaken with a failed save and are unaffected if a successful save is made. Lasts 5d4 rounds. Creatures who make the save are immune to the Spider&#39;s frightful presence for the next 24 hours. This is a mind-affecting fear effect.

Incredible Jump (ex): When making a jump action the Spider&#39;s horizontal jump DC is half the normal and for a vertical jump is only doubled (normally quadrupalled).

Quickness (su): While not overly dexterous, the Spider is supernaturally quick and can take an extra standard action or move action during its turn each round.

Poisonous bite: Initial damage Fort Save DC 26 or die. Secondary damage 1d6 con and 1d6 str.

Pounce (ex): If the spider charges, he can make a full attack.

Spittle (ex): Poison based defensive action that deals 1d6 damage (fortitude DC26 to avoid) and blinds opponents struck for 1d6 rounds. Affects up to 3 creatures in a 15 ft. radius or 60 ft. cone.

Web (ex): Once per round as a standard action the Spider can throw web as a ranged touch attack. This is similar to an attack with a net but has a max range of 50 feet with range increments of 10 feet, and is effective against targets of huge size or smaller. An entagled creature can escape with a successful Escape Artist check (DC 16) or burst it with a strength check (DC 20).


notes..

Changed to a racial hit die all around. Fewer Feats, though I believe most of the skills can remain. Bumped his dex and wis a little, but Int is vermin or animal. Added Frightful Presence, just seemed right. I think BR could use an insanity point system like in Ravenloft, something to that effect ^_^

[fiftyone]

I don&#39;t really think he would have Ranger class levels. Just give him the track feat and that could be done, though I don&#39;t believe he would need it. He can probably see through the eyes of the tens of thousands of spiders that inhabit the Spiderfell. Why bother following a trail of footprints? ^_^

The combat styles, woodland stride, endurance and animal empathy isn&#39;t really needed IMO. If a creature that isn&#39;t gnoll, goblin or spider exists in the Fell its most likely regarded as livestock and since the Spider is never mentioned as actually leaving the Fell or wandering it (he has enough minions for menial tasks) being able to move through bramble and thick brush is not important. Endurance, I don&#39;t know and combat styles? The only picture I have of the Spider is the Blood Enemies one with the wicked claws etc. My card from the original set was destroyed long ago :(. I do remember him looking more civilized though. Well about as civilized as a half person half spider could look ^_^

Favored Enemy has the base in the Elves. He really seems to Despise them. If anything, one level of ranger for this IMO ^_^

[irdeggman]

Hobgoblin (Elite Goblin in BR). The leaders of the goblinoids.

[fiftyone]

But a Bugbear (3.5E) would well.. rape a 3.5E hobbie. (base monster manual stats)

[RaspK_FOG]

Originally posted by fiftyone@Apr 20 2004, 12:27 AM
But a Bugbear (3.5E) would well.. rape a 3.5E hobbie. (base monster manual stats)
I don&#39;t get what you mean to say... In any case, your stat block should read "augmented goblinoid".

[fiftyone]

Goblinoid is a Humanoid sub-type, he is an awnshegh now. The only real purpose it would resolve is the ranger&#39;s favored enemy ability. I think he&#39;s changed to much to be considered a goblinoid, thought favored enemy &#39;awnshegh&#39; wouldn&#39;t work since each awnshegh is so different from eachother. Anyone ever consider, since an awnshegh is a somewhat divine figure, about giving them the Outsider (native) type? That would be really cool IMO ^_^

A base bugbear is a 3 hit die creature. A base hobgoblin is a hoblin with one class level.

[fiftyone]

i should use the quote thing in my posts ^_^

[Lord Nycon]

Originally posted by Ariadne@Apr 18 2004, 07:26 PM
He he, that example druid can fly in (over the forrest for example), fight and fly out. No sain goblin will pay attention to a small bird or bat or other tiny animal, if it only passes. I?m sure even a goblin will not attack any creature it meets just for fun, they won?t notice it (and don?t tell me, that forrest has no animals :) ). And if those troops are searching after the attack? So what&#33; They only have seen a shape changing animal (if at all) and I?m sure they don?t have a ?true seeing? at hand... :D
That would be a sight to see. A druid that changed into a bird flying through the trees only to be caught in a huge spider&#39;s web. I am sure anything a player can think up a clever DM can find a way to get yah. There are other things in the forest besides goblins that an invader should worry about. :lol:

[fiftyone]

spot check dc20 to see a huge web ^_^ thats quite failable

[Raesene Andu]

Originally posted by fiftyone@Apr 20 2004, 06:43 AM
Changed to a racial hit die all around. Fewer Feats, though I believe most of the skills can remain. Bumped his dex and wis a little, but Int is vermin or animal. Added Frightful Presence, just seemed right. I think BR could use an insanity point system like in Ravenloft, something to that effect ^_^
I would leave his intelligence as it was, primarily because I don&#39;t think the Spider is a stupid animal or vermin. If you go by the way he was presented in The Spider&#39;s Test novel, then he is a quite intelligent (if completely insane) being, and a master of riddles.

[fiftyone]

Halaster wannabe&#33; lol

[fiftyone]

So, have you come up with a new version Raes?


and.. whats the timeframe of that novel?

[Raesene Andu]

The timeframe of the novel is around the time Endier was first settled (2-300 years ago I believe, but can&#39;t check that without my books). It is an interesting novel, not the best of the BR novels, but still worth reading if you are looking to run the Spider and his minions as the major enemy for your campaign.

My version of the spider is the one right at the start of this thread, assuming we are still on the same thread I started weeks ago about this topic...

[Ariadne]

Originally posted by fiftyone@Apr 20 2004, 12:21 AM
spot check dc20 to see a huge web ^_^ thats quite failable
agreed :D

Further there is the thing with "freedom of movement" ;)

[Ariadne]

Originally posted by Osprey@Apr 19 2004, 08:26 PM
Then again, I&#39;d have no problem with an ECL 25-30 Spider B) .


Now we speak one language... B)

[fiftyone]

kk

Tal-Qazar (The Spider)

Level 13 Awnsheghlien Fighter
*might want to boost this a little, or vary it. 1 ranger, 2 rogue, 10 fighter and maybe some abberation or monstrous human racial hit die. Hell, if you want to consider him half spider, throw on a large spiders hit dice ^_^

Hit Dice: 13d10+26 (91 hp).
*see above, if kept 13 fighter, minimum HP should be 102 (10 + 30 + 36 + 26)

Initiative: +7 (+3 Dex, +4 Improved Initiative).
*
Speed: 30 ft. (6 squares), climb 20ft., jump 30ft.
* Speed is good but you may want to up land speed to 40ft. Giving a jump speed kind of takes away from 3E imo, see incredible jump ability in an earlier post by me.

AC: 22 (-1 Size, +3 Dex, +10 natural).
*

Attacks: 2 Claws +17/+10/+5 melee (1d10+4), Bite +17/+10/+5 melee (1d6+4 plus poison).
*You don&#39;t gain multiple natural attacks for having a high base attack rating. You simply attack with all of your natural weapons once; your primary (claws) and your secondary at -5 (bite). Secondary also only receives 1/2 str bonus

Face/Reach: 10 ft./5 ft.
* I like the idea of his claws having reach (10ft)

Special Attacks: Jump, poisonous bite, web, spittle.
*

Special Qualities: Darkvision 60ft., regeneration, tremorsense 60ft.
* he had magic resistance in 2E, maybe a slight spell resistance here like 10-15. The quickness ability from my first post a took from the Choker (MM). Pounce, some felines have it and so does the raptor (the d dino lol). People spoke of the mobilty the spider should have so I gave those in the one I made up.

Saves: Fort +12, Ref +7, Will +3.
*

Abilities: Str 19, Dex 17, Con 14, Int 15, Wis 8, Cha 7.
*Bumping a creature to large gives it +8str, +4 con, +1 natural armor, but -1 to attack/ac and -2 dex. Dunno if that&#39;s figured here or if you care ^_^

Skills: ??
* check my first post maybe ^_^

Feats: Alertness, Improved Initiative, Multiattack, ??
* /shrug, up to you. 7 Fighter bonus feats and 5 others (for 13HD).

Bloodline: True (Azrai) 95.
Blood Abilities: Animal Affinity – spiders (Great), Bloodform (Great), Invulnerability (Great), Long Life (Great), Major Regeneration and Regeneration (Great).
*2E ? well i don&#39;t know any 3E systems except for my own so lol ^_^

Climate/Terrain: The Spiderfell.
Organization: Solitary or with goblin bodyguard (12–36).

Challenge Rating: 14.
* Should be 15.

Treasure: See Below.
Alignment: Chaotic evil.

[Ariadne]

Originally posted by fiftyone@Apr 19 2004, 10:13 PM
Tal-Qazar (The Spider)

Level Awnsheghlien (augmented Humanoid)
Hit Dice: 24d8+98 (206 hp)
Initiative: +4 (+4 Dex).
Speed: 40 ft. (8 squares), climb 20ft.
AC: 23 (-1 Size, +4 Dex, +10 natural)
Attacks: 2 Claws +24 melee (1d6+7) Bite +21 melee (1d8+3 plus poison).
Face/Reach: 10 ft./10 ft. (claws), 5 ft. (bite)
Special Attacks: poisonous bite, pounce, spittle, web
Special Qualities: darkvision 60ft., frightful presence, incredible jump, quickness, regeneration, spell resistance 15, tremorsense 60ft.
Saves: Fort +18, Ref +12, Will +8.
Abilities: Str 24, Dex 20, Con 19, Int - or 2 to have non-racial feats and skills, Wis 10, Cha 13.
Skills: Climb +28, Hide +12, Intimidate +11, Jump +36, , Move Silently +8, Spot +14
Feats: Dodge, Fleet of Foot, Improved Overrun, Mobility, Mult-attack, Power Attack, Run, Spring Attack
Bloodline: True (Azrai) 95.
Blood Abilities: Animal Affinity – spiders (Great), Bloodform (Great), Invulnerability (Great), Long Life (Great), Major Regeneration and Regeneration (Great).

Again a nice work. Since spiders are vermin type, no animal they would have Int-, but what if using (additionally to the insectile template) the tauric template of savage species. This would grant the spider the Int of the "base creature" (hobgoblin) + several bonusses of a spider. I actually can&#39;t give the stats, because I&#39;m at work, but I will post them tonight...

BTW, you should add the minor and major blood abilities of the spider as well...

[Ariadne]

Originally posted by fiftyone@Apr 20 2004, 09:52 AM
Attacks: 2 Claws +17/+10/+5 melee (1d10+4), Bite +17/+10/+5 melee (1d6+4 plus poison).
*You don&#39;t gain multiple natural attacks for having a high base attack rating. You simply attack with all of your natural weapons once; your primary (claws) and your secondary at -5 (bite). Secondary also only receives 1/2 str bonus


You made the same mistake as Reasene: A creature ALWAYS has 2 claws and 1 bite attack, regardless or fighter levels.

So the spider better has: Attacks: 2 Claws +17 melee (1d8+8), Bite +15 melee (2d6+4 plus poison).

=> naturally I included the Multiattack feat and changed the claw/ bite damage...

[fiftyone]

i said claws plural ^_^ look at the spiders i did lol ^_^

[Ariadne]

Originally posted by fiftyone@Apr 20 2004, 10:29 AM
i said claws plural ^_^* look at the spiders i did lol ^_^
And? Does the spider have 3 claws???

Further both claws have the same attack...

Edit: Now I got it :D

[fiftyone]

Originally posted by Ariadne+Apr 20 2004, 05:11 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Ariadne &#064; Apr 20 2004, 05:11 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-fiftyone@Apr 19 2004, 10:13 PM
Tal-Qazar (The Spider)

Level Awnsheghlien (augmented Humanoid)
Hit Dice: 24d8+98 (206 hp)
Initiative: +4 (+4 Dex).
Speed: 40 ft. (8 squares), climb 20ft.
AC: 23 (-1 Size, +4 Dex, +10 natural)

*
Attacks: 2 Claws +24 melee (1d6+7) Bite +21 melee (1d8+3 plus poison).
*

Face/Reach: 10 ft./10 ft. (claws), 5 ft. (bite)
Special Attacks: poisonous bite, pounce, spittle, web
Special Qualities: darkvision 60ft., frightful presence, incredible jump, quickness, regeneration, spell resistance 15, tremorsense 60ft.
Saves: Fort +18, Ref +12, Will +8.
Abilities: Str 24, Dex 20, Con 19, Int - or 2 to have non-racial feats and skills, Wis 10, Cha 13.
Skills: Climb +28, Hide +12, Intimidate +11, Jump +36, , Move Silently +8, Spot +14
Feats: Dodge, Fleet of Foot, Improved Overrun, Mobility, Mult-attack, Power Attack, Run, Spring Attack
Bloodline: True (Azrai) 95.
Blood Abilities: Animal Affinity – spiders (Great), Bloodform (Great), Invulnerability (Great), Long Life (Great), Major Regeneration and Regeneration (Great).

Again a nice work. Since spiders are vermin type, no animal they would have Int-, but what if using (additionally to the insectile template) the tauric template of savage species. This would grant the spider the Int of the "base creature" (hobgoblin) + several bonusses of a spider. I actually can&#39;t give the stats, because I&#39;m at work, but I will post them tonight...

BTW, you should add the minor and major blood abilities of the spider as well... [/b][/quote]
I just didn&#39;t specify in that one post ^_^

Edit: for your edit ^_^

[fiftyone]

With ther vermin int he&#39;d have no feats, I think.

and.. climb, hide, jump, spot, move silently and listen as his racial skills (hobgoblin and large spider)

[fiftyone]

Originally posted by Ariadne+Apr 20 2004, 05:11 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Ariadne &#064; Apr 20 2004, 05:11 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-fiftyone@Apr 19 2004, 10:13 PM

BTW, you should add the minor and major blood abilities of the spider as well...

[/b][/quote]
??

[Ariadne]

Originally posted by fiftyone+Apr 20 2004, 10:48 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (fiftyone @ Apr 20 2004, 10:48 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
Originally posted by Ariadne@Apr 20 2004, 05:11 AM
<!--QuoteBegin-fiftyone@Apr 19 2004, 10:13 PM

BTW, you should add the minor and major blood abilities of the spider as well...


?? [/b][/quote]
I meant, that the Spider&#39;s blood score of 95 gives several minor, major and great blood abilites, not only great. Maybe the spider in 2nd Ed had only those described blood abilities. So what, the rest can be created with following the BRCS by rolling or choosing...

It can be, that the spider has more blood abilites than it would have in 2nd ED. That&#39;s normal, it applied to the Gorgon too...

[Ariadne]

Originally posted by fiftyone@Apr 20 2004, 10:45 AM
With ther vermin int he&#39;d have no feats, I think.

and.. climb, hide, jump, spot, move silently and listen as his racial skills (hobgoblin and large spider)
That&#39;s right, the vermin type might be the right one for A spider, but it&#39;s IMO not the right one for THE spider... :D

The tauric template would change her type to "monstrous humanoid", that&#39;s much more fitting...

[fiftyone]

Here&#39;s another&#33; I&#39;m just screwing around now ^_^

Tal-Qazar (The Spider)

Fighter 10, Rogue 2, Ranger 1
Large Awnsheghlien (Outsider [Native])
Hit Dice: 10d10+14d8+2d6+92+26+10 (249hp)
Initiative: +5 (+5 Dex).
Speed: 40 ft. (8 squares), climb 20ft.
AC: 25 (-1 Size, +5 Dex, +11 natural), touch 15, flat-footed 20
Base Attack/Grapple: +25/+37
Attack: Claw +33 melee (1d8+8)
Full Attack: 2 Claws +33 melee (1d8+8) and Bite +30 melee (1d8+4 plus poison).
Face/Reach: 10 ft./10 ft. (claws), 5 ft. (bite)
Special Attacks: poisonous bite, pounce, sneak attack (+1d6), spittle, web
Special Qualities: darkvision 120ft., evasion, favored enemy (elves), frightful presence, incredible jump, quickness, regeneration 1, spell resistance 15, tremorsense 60ft., wild empathy
Saves: Fort +21, Ref +20, Will +11.
Abilities: Str 27, Dex 20, Con 20, Int 16, Wis 10, Cha 19.
Skills: Bluff +23, Climb +42, Hide +25*, Intimidate +22, Jump +47, Knowledge (geography) +13, Knowledge (local) +15, Knowledge (nature) +6, Listen +13, Move Silently +21*, Sense Motive +12, Spot +32, Survival +11, Tumble +12
Feats: Awesome Blow, Combat Reflexes, Dodge, Fleet of Foot, Hold the Line, Improved Toughness, Improved Natural Armor, Improved Bull Rush, Improved Overrun, Mobility, Mult-attack, Power Attack, Run, Spring Attack, Track*, Weapon Focus (claws)
Bloodline: True (Azrai) 95.
Blood Abilities: Animal Affinity – spiders (Great), Bloodform (Great), Invulnerability (Great), Long Life (Great), Major Regeneration and Regeneration (Great).

Poison and Escape/break web DC 28. Frightful Presence DC 27.

*The Spider gains a +8 spidery bonus to hide and move silently checks made on web.

Organization: Solitary or with goblin bodyguard (12–36).
Challenge Rating: 23.
Treasure: See Below.
Alignment: Chaotic evil

[fiftyone]

should make topics like this for some of the other awnshegh

[Raesene Andu]

Fiftyone,

I quite like you 1st version of the Spider, my only concern was with his low or negligible intelligance. This doesn&#39;t tally with his followers... animals don&#39;t have followers (unless they are creatures of the same sort like the wolf), as the Spider is lord over a good-sized population of goblins and gnolls...

[fiftyone]

12 is just above average. Was 11 in 2E. I could see it around 15 max, like in your original. I don&#39;t think it should be any higher though.

I just updated the DC&#39;s on the first version, i had just done 10+HD but the formula is i just found out, 10 + 1/2 HD + relevent ability (con for poison and dex for web imo)

[Raesene Andu]

No probably not too high, but not too low either. Tal-Qazar is not a supergenius, but he isn&#39;t stupid either. His mastery of riddles just comes from being around for 2000 years

[fiftyone]

wouldn&#39;t really need to recalculate skills either, i had given him some for free anyway :)

[fiftyone]

Revised the first Spider I posted. Added 2 more hit dice, alertness feat, redid skills and bumped int up to 15. CR should be about 19 or 20, any thoughts?

Tal-Qazar (The Spider)

Large Awnsheghlien
Hit Dice: 13d10 plus 5d8+72+18+10 (193 hp).
Initiative: +3 (+3 Dex).
Speed: 40 ft. (8 squares), climb 20ft.
AC: 23 (-1 Size, +3 Dex, +11 natural).
Base Attack/Grapple: +18/+29
Attack: Claw +23 melee (1d6+7)
Full Attack: 2 Claws +25 melee (1d6+7) and Bite +22 melee (1d8+3 plus poison).
Face/Reach: 10 ft./10 ft. (claws), 5 ft. (bite)
Special Attacks: poisonous bite, pounce, spittle, web
Special Qualities: darkvision 60ft., incredible jump, quickness, regeneration 1, spell resistance 15, tremorsense 60ft.
Saves: Fort +14, Ref +11, Will +7.
Abilities: Str 24, Dex 16, Con 19, Int 15, Wis 8, Cha 13.
Skills: Climb +32, Handle Animal +3, Hide +13, Intimidate +14, Jump +38, Lead +3, Listen +8, Move Silently +9, Ride +5, Spot +20, Swim +9, Warcraft +7
Feats: Alertness, Combat Reflexes, Dodge, Fleet of Foot, Hold the Line, Improved Toughness, Improved Natural Armor, Improved Overrun, Mobility, Mult-attack, Power Attack, Run, Spring Attack, Weapon Focus (claws)
Bloodline: True (Azrai) 95.
Blood Abilities: Animal Affinity – spiders (Great), Bloodform (Great), Invulnerability (Great), Long Life (Great), Major Regeneration and Regeneration (Great).

Organization: Council (The Spider; two goblin and two gnoll lieutenants)
Challenge Rating: 20.
Treasure: See Below.
Alignment: Chaotic evil

Incredible Jump (ex): When making a jump action the Spider&#39;s horizontal jump DC is half the normal and for a vertical jump is only doubled (normally quadrupalled).

Quickness (su): While not overly dexterous, the Spider is supernaturally quick and can take an extra standard action or move action during its turn each round.

Poisonous bite: Initial damage Fort Save DC 23 or die. Secondary damage 1d6 con and 1d6 str.

Pounce (ex): If the spider charges, he can make a full attack.

Spittle (ex): Poison based defensive action that deals 2d6 damage (fortitude DC 23 to negate) and blinds opponents struck for 1d6 rounds. Affects up to 3 creatures in a 15 ft. radius or 60 ft. cone.

Web (ex): Once per round as a standard action the Spider can throw web as a ranged touch attack. This is similar to an attack with a net but has a max range of 50 feet with range increments of 10 feet, and is effective against targets of huge size or smaller. An entagled creature can escape with a successful Escape Artist check (DC 22) or burst it with a strength check (DC 26).

[fiftyone]

If I were to convert the Spider&#39;s Bloodline to the 3.5 Chapter 2 revision and give him 2 scion of Azrai levels; Should I convert his bloodline score (95) as 95 on the chap 2 chart?

[tcharazazel]

Yep, got a couple things.

Why is the spider still only getting attacks as a spider? instead of having the option to use a weapon like was discussed earlier? thought that he was pictured as being a 1/2 spider 1/2 goblin instead of a full spider.

just curious as if hes got fighter levels, not so sure now as the breakdown of his levels isnt totally clear tho it looks like 13 level of fighter and 5 levels of spider/awnshegh. Is that right?

It also seems like you opted to just have him "forget" any feats that he would have gotten as a goblin general before he became the Spider. Such as weapon focus and weapon specialization, possibly great leader, military genius, or skill focus warcraft ect. I mention it as he has been still acting like a general for the past... 1500 years or so, organizing raids on the nearby provinces, ect.

Also, it seems like he needs some minor and major bloodline powers in addition to the Great Bloodline powers.

[fiftyone]

Originally posted by tcharazazel@Apr 25 2004, 05:26 PM
Yep, got a couple things.

Why is the spider still only getting attacks as a spider? instead of having the option to use a weapon like was discussed earlier? thought that he was pictured as being a 1/2 spider 1/2 goblin instead of a full spider.

just curious as if hes got fighter levels, not so sure now as the breakdown of his levels isnt totally clear tho it looks like 13 level of fighter and 5 levels of spider/awnshegh. Is that right?

It also seems like you opted to just have him "forget" any feats that he would have gotten as a goblin general before he became the Spider. Such as weapon focus and weapon specialization, possibly great leader, military genius, or skill focus warcraft ect. I mention it as he has been still acting like a general for the past... 1500 years or so, organizing raids on the nearby provinces, ect.

Also, it seems like he needs some minor and major bloodline powers in addition to the Great Bloodline powers.
- Spider&#39;s don&#39;t have claw attacks. The Spider might not be able to hold a weapon any longer. Spiders also don&#39;t have pounce, quickness, incredible jump, or a spittle attack.

- 13/5 HD is about right. Probably to change if I convert it to the Chap. 2 revised.

- He isn&#39;t a great leader or a military genius. Atleast not in my opinion. He may have commanded the Goblin Armies at Desimar, but we have only his word for it and even if he did, he ordered his troops as he was ordered to do with them. Call it an &#39;honorable&#39; title. With his current set of abilities and feat selection, he&#39;s built to move. /shrug

- His current Blood Abilities are 2nd Edition. My question from my previous post remains unanswered.

- If I were to convert the Spider&#39;s blood from 2nd Edition to 3.5E (the revised Chapter 2) would I convert his Blood strength from (95) to (95)?

[irdeggman]

95 should work. One of the reasons for going back to the 1-100 scale for bloodline score was to allow conversion of the NPCS from 2nd ed without too much difficulty. In this case, whatever he had bloodscore wise would convert directly over. It could be assumed that his initial blood score roll was was sufficient to put him in the proper range.

Also there is more than one source that documents The Spider as having been a great goblin general. Check out the cards in the box set, it talks about he commanded many goblin troops against the elves from the Spiderfell even before Deismaar. It talks about his skill in setting traps for his enemies, something that fits in with his being a miliary commander of some might. It also makes mention of the fact that goblins could command sorcery. Something that fits in with the listing for cerilian goblins in the Monstrous Compendium (I can&#39;t recall the specific volume) that listed them as having magician as a class.

[tcharazazel]

heh true spiders dont get claw attacks, though you answered my point about him using weapons as he now has claws instead of hands. Rather sucky for him, and good for the PCs is all I&#39;m sayin. Makes him easier to take down. And that also address him "loosing" his weapon focus and specialization feats as he can&#39;t use them anymore. Though maybe he would have picked up weapon specialization in claws... heheh, considering that hes a lvl 13 fighter maybe even greater weapon focus claws and greater weapon specialization claws.

Sure, he doesnt have to be a great general at desimar, however, leading troops for over 1500 years? heh, if he didnt know how to lead back at Desimar he probably knows by now. So him only having a Lead +3 and a Warcraft +7 seems rather low is all. As im not sure what his total skill points are i cant exactly say how to adust them with the other skills. Though having at least +10 in each would make sense.

As for your question, a 95 bloodline, would mean he only gets 4 great powers instead of the 6 that you gave him... damn. hmm... one thing i just noticed that there is a discrepancy in the pattern so if that was just an error well if he had a 96 then he would have 5 great powers. Ok, to give him 6 great blood powers he will need at minimum bloodline of 116. As i dont have the 2E version of BR at hand I&#39;m not sure that it evens out with a bloodline of 95 exactly. So to answer your question... if a bloodline score in 2E of 95 gives him 6 great powers then a bloodline score of 116 in the 3.5E will give him 6 great powers, 6 major powers and 6 minor powers.

Also, one cool feat from Savage Species is Improved Web. in case you dont have it:

Prereq: Ability to create webs as an extraordinary ability at least 2/day.

Benifit: Add +2 to DC to escape or burst your webs. You may take a full-round action to attack with your webs, and if you do so, you may attack one additional target per point of dexterity bonus you have. (so he could attack a total of 4 targets then) No such target may be more than 10&#39; from another target. Using this feat requires 2 of the daily uses of your web ability. So as he can use the web once per round then it would take up 2 rounds of him making webs, example he uses it on the 1st round then he could use it 3rd round, and 5th round, ect.

Another interesting feat is Mighty Leaping, also in Savage Species

Prereq: Str 21, Dodge, Mobility, Jump 9 ranks or a racial bonus on Jump checks.

Benefit: You gain +10 competence bonus on Jump checks. If you intentionally jump downfrom a height, a successful Jump check (DC 15) lets you take damage as if you had fallen 20&#39; less than you actually did.

Normal: Without this feat, a successful Jump check lets you take damage as if you had fallen 10&#39; less than you actually did.

Special: A creature with this feat is not limited by its height when jumping.

And two for his poison bite. Virulent Poison and Deadly Poison again they are in the Savage Species.

Virulent Poison:

Prereq: Poison attack as an extraordinary ability

Benefit: Add +2 to the DC for Fortitude saving throws against your poison attack. (So it would make his poison DC 25)

Deadly Poison:

Prereq: Con 19, Poison special attack that deals ability damage as a secondary damage, Virulent Poison.

Benefit: Your poison attack has the potential to deal more potent secondary damage than it otherwise could. If the subject of the attack fails the second saving throw, the poison deals double its normal secondary damage. (So it would make his secondary damage 2d6 Con and 2d6 Str if they fail their second Fort save.)

Just a couple other ideas for him really. Heheh, I bet you got pleny though.

[fiftyone]

Hmm, if I gave him another monstrous type hit die and 2 levels of scion of azrai that would be an additional 2 feats and his minimun CR would be 21. Possibly, giving him heightened ability as a minor in Intelligence would give 21 more skill points to work with, not including those gained from the new hit dice, but it might be more effective in charisma for his leadership score etc. The extra hit dice will give enough points to raise lead and warcraft, even the 1 extra monstrous hit die.

Those feats look very interesting, especially the improved web and jump. ^_^

hmm..

As for the Spider card, mine was destroyed long ago =(

Anyone have a scanner ? :D

All this compiled, CR would be about 23 without blood abilities.. Ouch lol

[tcharazazel]

heh, well the ancient awnshegh from desimar all should really be epic unless they were in stasis for most of that time.

True, its cool to keep things in low level form, however, it seems like people forgot why it was easier to do that with 2E. Simply that the system started to break down after 20th level. Now, in 3/3.5E with the inclusion of the Epic book and ideas, the balancing issues have been worked out more (not totally of course tho better than they were before). So, having these ancient awnshegh be epic makes total sense. Heh, i didnt even look up any epic feats that may be appropriate for him. Heheh, now that would start making him an even badder mofo.

and sry i dont have the Spiders war card

[Raesene Andu]

I have the Card in question (but don&#39;t have my scanner set up at the moment)...

It descibes Tal-Qazar as the mighest goblin general of the peroid, leading thousands of goblins and gnolls into battle against elves and humans. I have always thought of him as the leader of Cerilia&#39;s goblins at Deismaar, although I imagine that much of his skills in leadership and battle have been lost with his sanity until he now rules primarily though fear, not skill in leadership.

Another bit from the card that will be interesting to you, is the description of how to handle the Spider in combat, and it suggests that he uses his claws and bite attacks, not a weapon (his poison is described as particularly deadly, save vs. poison or die sort of strength). He also jumps up to 30ft in the air or up to 50ft. away and can use this jump to land on opponents with a successful attack. Then it goes on to talk about his web and blinding spittle (if really needed).

So, if you go off the original material on the spider, then he fights most as a monster, using his awnsheghlien abilities, rather than as a warrior using his weapons and combat skills.

The only other thing of note is that the card describes him as not as powerful as the Gorgon or Ruobhe, so he is still a very dangerous foe, but not as dangerous as those Awnsheghlien who have retained their skills and sanity. However, it is important to remember that the Spider, with a small force of maybe a couple of thousand humanoids and some giants spiders have managed to keep out some of Anuires major empires, defeating them many times in battle and remaining undefeated. For any campaign set in the Southern Coast, he should be one of the major foes, and not just some minor Awnshegh who can easily be overcome by a group of mid-level adventurers. Defeating the Spider should be an epic event.

Finally, there is also a precedent for Awnshegh losing class abilities, especially for monster Awnsheghlien. I&#39;m thinking mainly of the Basalisk here, who was once a wizard, but is now just a mindless beast. So the Spider may have once been a great warrior, but those skills have been lost over the centuries and he has learnt new ones, skills and feats that better enable him to use his tainted body to crush his foes.

[tcharazazel]

Oh cool so he uses his body to crush foes? Hmm... in the Savage Species there is another feat called Crush, however, you have to be Huge+ to use it.

Crush

Prereq: Huge size.

Size category Crush Base Damage

Huge 2d8
Gargantuan 4d6
Colossal 4d8

Benefit: As a standard Action, you can jump or fall onto opponents, using your whole body to crush them. This attack is useful only against creatures at least three size categories smaller than you. The base damage for a crush attack depends on your size category above. Add 1 1/2 times your Strength bonus to this base damage to determine the total damage for the attack. A crush attack deals bludgeoning damage and affects as many creatures as can fit under your body. Each ceature in the affected area must succeed on a Reflex save (DC 10+ your Str modifier + your size modifier for grapple checks). On a failure, the opponent is pinned and automatically takes crush damage each round the pin is maintained.

Or you could just give him the Trample ability. In the back of the MM3.5 it describes it, page 316. Its quite a lot actually so I&#39;ll just sum up.

Trample (Ex): As a full round action, a creature with this special attack can move up to twice its speed and literally run over any opponents at least one size category smaller than itself. The trample deals bludgeoning damage = the creatures slam damage + 1-1/2 times its Str modifier. Trampled opponents can make attacks of opportunity at a -4 penalty, or they can take a reflex save for half damage with a DC of 10 +1/2 creatures HD + Str mod. Finally, they can only deal trampling damage to each target once per round.

Of course, as the Spider currently doesnt have a slam attack this makes it rather difficult to justify, however, if you follow what Raesene said that he jumps on opponents to attack them, thats basically a slam attack. I&#39;m not so sure how to figure that one out easily, though looking over what some other large creatures do for base damage as slam attacks it seems like 1d8 or 2d6 is the norm + their str monifier.


If the Spider would grab opponents and drop them from heights... heheh, or bite them repeatedly, and then drop them then maybe Multigab and Greater Multigrab would be appropriate. Not sure if theyre really appropiate for him after looking over them again though you may disagree.

Multigrab

Prereq: Str 17, improved grab.

Benefit: When grappling an opponent with the part of your body that made the attack, you take only a -10 penalty on grapple checks to maintain the hold.

Normal: Without this feat, you take a -20 penalty on grapple checks to maintain a hold with the part of your body used to make the attack.


Greater Multigrab

Prereq: Str 19, Dex 15, improved grab, Multigrab

Benefit: When grappling an opponent with only the part of your body that made the attack, you take no penalty on grapple checks to maintain the hold.


Also, what about Improved Multiattack?

Prereq: 3 natural weapons, Multiattack.

Benefit: The usual -5 penalty on attack rolls for secondary attacks does not apply to your secondary attacks with natural weapons. The damage bonus for such attacks is still only 1/2 your strength bonus, if any.

Normal: Without this feat, your secondary natural attacks take a -5 penalty (or a -2 for Multiattack)



Also, he should probably be immune to poison himself.

[Raesene Andu]

I don&#39;t know about crushing anyone, but I imagine that he&#39;d stand a good chance of knocking someone over with a well aimed jump.

[fiftyone]

The Blood.

Is there anyway I can convert for more great abilites. Say we leave his bloodscore at 95, but that only entitles him to 4 great abilities. What if i sacrificed 2 major abilities for a great (say 2 major are about equal to a great) and sacrificed 4 minors for a 6th great (say 4 minors are about equal to a great). That would leave him with 1 minor, 3 major and 6 great blood abilities.

Grasping at straws&#33;

[Raesene Andu]

The Spider already has 6 Great abilities (Animal Affinity, Bloodform, Invulnerability, Long Life, Major Regeneration, and Standard Regeneration...

Even using the original 2E rules, the most he could have possibly has was 4 (one for the 20-28 range, one for the 36-50 range, one for the 51-80 range, and the last one for the 80-100 range). So he is already outside the norm...

However, if you look at the Awnsheghlien in the Blood Enemies book, several have more great blood abilities than they are supposed to. The Sphinx has 4 when he should only have 2. The Kraken has 3 when it should only have 2. The Gorgon also has 6, but he is over 100pts in bloodline, so who knows what his true bloodline is.

Just go with the 6 great abilities and don&#39;t give him any more major or minor abilities.

[fiftyone]

Oh, Ok

Still needa add 2 scion of azrai levels tho :D

[tcharazazel]

heh, i messed up there and had to edit that one. so its been added to.

[RaspK_FOG]

Not so sure that with all these stuff and being 21st-level (13 Ftr/6 Awn/2 Azr =2) he still has a CR of 23... Have to check that out.

As for the blood abilities, there were several "errors" in the books? In any case, bloodtheft would account for that (more blood abilities, that is).

As for Slam, you could write up an attack which would go like:
Slam (Ex): The Spider can deal slam (bludgeoning) damage to 1 Medium, 2 Small, 4 Tiny, 8 Diminutive, 16 Fine, or any combination of such creatures (like 1 Medium and 1 Small creature), by making a successful Jump check (appropriate DC for covered distance + creature&#39;s AC vs. touch attacks - 10).

[fiftyone]

A Scion with Regeneration and Major Regeneration, as per the Revised Chapter 2 has Fast Healing 3 and Regeneration 3.

Does the Regeneration overwrite the Fast Healing?

/Edit - Nevermind.

The Regeneration causes all damage to be non-lethal except typically fire and acid. Which the Fast Healing would then heal, but would the Fast Healing also heal the non-lethal damage?

[tcharazazel]

Ok, it seems to me that they would stack for those things that do not bypass the creatures regeneration like acid or fire. So for example, the Spider would regenerate non acid atks at 6 hps per round and those atks that do acid damage at 3 hps per round.

[RaspK_FOG]

Regeneration does not allow but some damage (most commonly acid and fire, since they "eat away" and not simply harm most substances) to be actually dealt to the creature as lethal and the rest is treated as non-lethal instead, and also cures its listed number of hit points that are not of that kind.

Fast healing on the other part magically heals its listed number of points of lethal damage each turn. Now, remember here that magical healing also cures a number of non-lethal damage equal to the lethal damage it cured. This way, a creature with both Fast Healing 3 and Regeneration 3 cures 3 points of lethal damage and 6 points of non-lethal damage each turn.

[fiftyone]

Thank you much, that was just for my own clarification ^_^

[irdeggman]

As I have pointed out before something is needed to quantify how awn/ersh progress. I&#39;m still leaning towards using something similar to the UA bloodline system for this.

One of the parts of the awn/ersh transformation should address increasing (or gaining) new blood abilities. This helps explain why the transformation is so powerful.

It is not a good idea to just jump in and start doing a straight conversion of the 2nd ed awnshegh. In 2nd ed there was no balanced method of creating monsters, in 3.5 the system has been greatly refined to include feats and skills for monsters. During the transformation process from 2nd ed to 3.5 some things are going to changes and some things are just going to have to be lost because the mechanics are different in 3.5 and the &#39;old&#39; stuff just doesn&#39;t work anymore.

[irdeggman]

Savage Species contains no OGC so we cannot simply copy info directly from it for inclusion in the BRCS or d20 Atlas.

It would be possible to reference feats from there, but it would require that the users of the BRCS and/or d20 Atlas have a copy of it before they can really use them correctly. This, IMO, is a bad idea.

Instead feats similar to those from SS can be created, but be careful in this process because they can only be so similar before it crosses th legality line.

[fiftyone]

Well, guess that means I can&#39;t give Rhoubhe the Darkspeech feat then.. :P

SRD ftw

[Raesene Andu]

Unless you create a BR version :)

[fiftyone]

Items for the Spider

Amulet of the Spiderlord (acts as an Amulet of Mighty Fists +3, Amulet of Natural Armor +3 and a Necklace of Adaptation), Ring of Ram (27 charges)

?

[Don E]

Originally posted by fiftyone@Apr 29 2004, 12:02 AM
Items for the Spider

Amulet of the Spiderlord (acts as an Amulet of Mighty Fists +3, Amulet of Natural Armor +3 and a Necklace of Adaptation), Ring of Ram (27 charges)

?

As mentioned by many before me, I think the most important aspect of a magic item is its history and description. Who created this amulet, for what purpouse, and how did the Spider get hold of it? If it is referred to as &#39;The Amulet of the Spiderlord&#39; it would suggest that it was perhaps custom made for Tal-Qazar, but what does it look like, a mostrous spider?

I don&#39;t mind the mechanics of the item, despite it being quite powerful. Just a few suggestions to make the writeup more interesting and useful.

Cheers,
E

[fiftyone]

See the picture of the Spider card from the original boxset ^_^

/edit - Lolth gave it to him ^_^ :lol:

[RaspK_FOG]

Originally posted by RaspK_FOG@Apr 27 2004, 01:32 AM
Regeneration does not allow but some damage (most commonly acid and fire, since they "eat away" and not simply harm most substances) to be actually dealt to the creature as lethal and the rest is treated as non-lethal instead, and also cures its listed number of hit points that are not of that kind.

Fast healing on the other part magically heals its listed number of points of lethal damage each turn. Now, remember here that magical healing also cures a number of non-lethal damage equal to the lethal damage it cured. This way, a creature with both Fast Healing 3 and Regeneration 3 cures 3 points of lethal damage and 6 points of non-lethal damage each turn.
Sorry for rewriting in this thread by we all made a mistake here which I only noticed because I recently happened upon the Fast Healing entry.

Fast Healing is not considered magical healing; it is in fact considered to be the same as natural healing with a few differences. The rules specifically say that if a creature has suffered both non-lethal and normal damage, it cures the non-lethal damage first. In this case, it means that having Fast Healing 3 and Regeneration 3 cures 3 points of non-lethal damage, plus 3 points of damage starting from non-lethal damage and then applying on normal damage.

For example, such a creature suffers 8 points of non-lethal damage and 4 points of normal damage; it then cures 6 points of non-lethal damage, bringing it to 2 points of non-lethal damage and 4 points of normal damage. If it remains further unharmed, it would heal 2 points of non-lethal damage due to its Regeneration 3 special quality then heal 3 points of normal damage from its Fast Healing 3 ability, which leaves it with only 1 point of normal damage.

[tcharazazel]

yeah, I thought we already basically said that.

[RaspK_FOG]

No, we didn&#39;t: we said that such a creature would cure 6 points of non-lethal damage AND 3 points of normal damage&#33; while it actually heals 3 points of non-lethal damage plus another 3 points of damage, starting with any leftover points of non-lethal damage and then curing normal damage if there is any Fast Healing left. For example, if such a creature would have suffered 5 points of non-lethal damage and 3 points of normal damage, it would heal 3 points of non-lethal damage fue to its Regeneration 3 ability, plus 2 points of non-lethal damage due to its Fast Healing 3 ability (1 point of Fast Healing left), plus 1 point of normal damage; this leaves it with 2 points of normal damage for that round, while we thought it would be left with no damage at all&#33;

[tcharazazel]

it wasnt a total of 9 points of healing we talked about it was still a total of 6 points healed, just that 3 of the of the points healed could be lethal.

Well I guess we understood it differently then, heheh.